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You have summed up my thoughts on the EU
The thing is that it's more than just a trade arrangement. There's an underlying ideal underneath it. And it's a positive one. If it's not working, then fix it, don't abandon it.
unlike the brit side who don't actually know what they are doing and keep on promising impossible things
Don't speak too soon, I'm sure our highly experienced team of ruthless negotiators will ramp up the swinging and sucking of the the arms of thier varifocal glasses any time now.
And if there is special status for NI then I know the next of the countries in the UK that will be queuing for special status. The (Westminster) Tories can probably do without that
Yes but even their mega-BS couldn't hide the lack of a border with an EU state, one of their spokeswoman has managed four cliches in one senatance and without stopping for a breath in the debate now. No wonder the crowds have left the house. She is winning the speed reading contest though.. Poor people of Livingstone. She gave way for 20 seconds but is off again now.
We tried to fix it @molgrips but the EU is determind to move in the opposite direction. As May said we should leave and just let them get on with that. The EU have fou d us awkward bedfellows holding the superstate project back. Well no longer.
In other news Poland is looking to claim just shy of a Trillion euros in second world war reparations from Germany, something supported by 63% of Poles
Jamba - not really predictions any more are they? Death by a thousand cutS
The news is overwhelming positive, pro Brexit.
The thing is that it's more than just a trade arrangement
Correct sorry I forgot the folly that is the single currency.. Excuse me.
It's shouldn't be more than a singer market based on the four freedoms
The EU have little to lose. It us that need concessions from them. They need nothing from us
There is zero chance of the EU coming up with a solution that would please the leavers. Its simply not in their interest to do so
Once people and goods are in NI they are in the UK or are you now wanting a hard border in the irish sea? Otherwise there is no way of checking who or what is coming from NI to mainland UK
The news is overwhelming positive, pro Brexit.
Really? financial services that keep theUK afloat fast moving out? Inward investment disappearing, major companies cutting investment, vast looming labour shortages in the NHS. All financial indicators doing far worse than the eurozone? NO trade deals appearing with anyone else
Name one single positive thing happening
Poland is looking to claim just shy of a Trillion euros in second world war reparations from Germany,
That's a private beef between those two.
It's not like good upstanding nations haven't made similar payments before as an apology for atrocities.
The whole point of the EU is never let atrocities like that happen again.
At some point, given the history of conflict between humans, a line has to be drawn and we all move forward together in a fair way.
The EU have little to lose. It us that need concessions from them. They need nothing from us
😯 ^2 plus 😀
Isn't it embarrassing posting that kind of stuff?
All financial indicators doing worse than the euro zone
Ed, have we found your source ?
David Allen Green on why the bill is a botch. I commend my MP for voting against - committed remainer that she is.
He's worth a follow for remainers. Even right-wing-tow-the-party-line-lets-get-on-with-it-quitters might learn a thing or two from him - if their hubris would let them.
https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/907265326433304576
[quote=jambalaya ]The news is overwhelming positive, pro Brexit.
😆
er, cite...
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Have done plenty already @aracer
Employment up
Wages up
Exports at record levels (up 17% since the referendum)
Nissan production confirmed and wish to double uk sourced components from 40 to 80%
Deutsche Bank signs new lease on London HQ
US confirms early trade deal likely as does Australia and NZ. Nothing can be signed until April 2019 anyway. Canada and Japan will join too. UK confirms it will seek to replicate all 60 EU deals as soon as possible.
TJ no one has moved out from the city, the folks I know working on contingency plans may move a few people that's it. 60% of Germans think Brexit is bad for the EU. The UK can broaden its horizons and seize growth opportunities with Brexit the EU is locked into protectionism.
And your solution is…?EU negotiating team holes to push UK into remaining in single market/eea/Customs union via Norway type deal as the "only" solution the NI border issue.
Of course Germans think Brexit is bad for the EU, it is, but they've got to "get on with it".
Bespoke sector by sector trade deal as per Canada, no ecj, no budget, no freedom of movement OR WTO
TJ no one has moved out from the city, the folks I know working on contingency plans may move a few people that's it.
Sorry you are both wrong - it's a battle - many more than a few, I know directly. Plus the EU have a lot to lose from the fragmentation of EU wholesale banking markets. Lots to lose
Canada deal is a very poor substitute for financial services too.
Of course German's think Brexit is bad for the EU, it is, but they've got to "get on with it".
I suspect they don't think it's all that good for their own EU contributions bill either...
Exports at record levels (up 17% since the referendum)
In pound terms I assume.
A source is need for the Nissan figures
One bank rents space in London, many in Europe
No trade deals signed or in the pipeline
Spin, spin, spin
Obvs. And?suspect they don't think it's all that good for their own EU contributions bill either...
And imports? And which counties have we increased our exports to? Easy answers…Exports at record levels (up 17% since the referendum)
MPs are looking younger and younger.
TJ no one has moved out from the city,
simply wrong. JObs have already gone and a lot more are going.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/12-city-banks-relocating-to-dublin-after-brexit-2017-6
http://www.cityam.com/267169/banking-brexodus-one-year-banks-have-said-brexit-and-job
Ed Davey young?
Bespoke sector by sector trade deal as per Canada
Cite? NBo work has been done on this yet and we simply do not have the time and expertise to do so
Is THM [i]still[/i] answering my posts and insulting me? Despite me blocking and ignoring him?
no just pointing out where you are making stuff up and yes there is quite a lot, Three posts in a row all with factual inaccuracies.
Banks are planning to move people, and are well advanced with this planning. Since they don't know the details, they have not started the expensive relocation despite what you say about jobs having already gone. Why would they ?
Is this the old completions between you and Jambas to see who can make the most things up?
So Jam, quote a business leader who says business prospects now are better *because* of brexit.
[quote=jambalaya ]Have done plenty already @aracer
Which of those things are better than they would have been without Brexit?
Though let's just pick on this one:
US confirms early trade deal likely as does Australia and NZ. Nothing can be signed until April 2019 anyway. Canada and Japan will join too. UK confirms it will seek to replicate all 60 EU deals as soon as possible.
So how is this "early trade deal" (I think you meant to write "early start to negotiations towards a trade deal") and a gap before replicating all 60 trade deals better than what we have now?
Though I suppose we'll probably be OK as we can always eat the luxury yachts.
No trade deals signed or in the pipeline
EU membership PREVENTS signature so no surprise there, UK obeys rule of law. Pipeline US, Australia, NZ, Japan
Nissan news was well covered in the press, 2 weeks ago ?
You/France need to focus on your own 10% general 20% youth unemployment rates and work out how you will meet the 3% budget deficit requirement on the eurozone.
Exports are measured in pounds of course, lower pound makes our exports more attractive to international buyers. Pounds is what pays the salaries of UK employees and profits to business owners.
TJ jobs move are projected and small in number. Most bizarre we have the lefties here trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill re City of London. As I posted before 100's thoisands of city/finance jobs have gone since 2008 and lefties here where saying "good riddance". Most bizarre turn around to suit Remoaning narrative.
TMH Canada didn't focus on services as they are not so important, banks like BMO have virtually shut down in London post 2008 anyway.
Well I was responding to this
Bespoke sector by sector trade deal as per Canada
Canada is one of a small handful of deals re financial services and it is a very poor example for us.
(I have just spent the last three days studying all these deals 😉 )
Anyway, it appears jamba's answer to:
[quote=kelvin ]
EU negotiating team holes to push UK into remaining in single market/eea/Customs union via Norway type deal as the "only" solution the NI border issue
And your solution is…?
was:
[quote=jambalaya ]Bespoke sector by sector trade deal as per Canada, no ecj, no budget, no freedom of movement OR WTO
which is an answer to a completely different question. jamba is DD and I claim my €5
- what is your solution to the NI border issue jamba?
He already answered that. Basically no borders with random spot checks. Unless you have a private Yatch and you can cross the sea without à passport.
Wages up
Jamba - with inflation caused by Brexit running 50-100% ahead of wage rises, wages are down due to Brexit.
I can't be bothered going through the rest of your assertions, but when you get the simple ones so blatantly wrong I don't hold out much hope.
Come on - your better than this.
IGM - have you missed the game ?
(Tbf to Janbas the last data point did show a real increase in wages in June. But that was the first month in some time. Public sector wages didn't rise in real terms obviously
Yep but fallen over all.
Have I missed the game? Probably.
Are we playing "Cheat"? Excellent card game that.
And also being fair to Jamba, my wages have risen quite noticeably. But then people like me are required to haul us out of this sorry Brexit mess. Don't worry I have a bit of experience of disaster recovery.
TMH is still rubbishing everything you say, TJ, even when he agrees with you, but we can all check for ourselves to see that the grammatical syntax of your original quote on banking is true [url= http://uk.businessinsider.com/12-city-banks-relocating-to-dublin-after-brexit-2017-6 ]Ireland[/url] space
[url= https://www.lesechos.fr/18/01/2017/lesechos.fr/0211704002690_brexit---hsbc-va-deplacer-1-000-emplois-de-londres-a-paris.htm ]Paris[/url] I'll leave Frankfurt for people to Google
TMH is still rubbishing everything you say, TJ, even when he agres with you,
No he is noting and correcting the series of factual mistakes made by TJ and others. If you post nonsense, it will get picked up.
but we can all check for ourselves
That would be a good start
to see that the grammatical syntax of your original quote on banking is true to the IrelandParis I'll leave Frankfurt for people to Google
No it's another example of remoan exaggeration. Banks are planning to relocate staff to a variety of EU centres. The final decisions will be made when the details of the FTA with respect to financial services.
But since you are playing the same game, I do not expect the factual details to worry you either. Carry on..
I see that famous rigjt winger Dennis Skinner voted for the Withdrawl Bill and against Corbyn's whip
326 vs 290. Comfortable enough and we move forward to the next stage
Edukator - Reformed TrollTMH is still rubbishing everything you say, TJ,
🙄
Are we playing "Cheat"? Excellent card game that.
Yes, although some of us (incl you and me) are playing a parallel game
@Edukator HSBC cut 8,000 UK jobs in 2015 where was your concern then ? Worldwide workforce has shrunk 75,000 (ish maybe more) simce 2010. It makes sense for banks who care about Europe (eg not Barclays) to relicate some staff / business. Those "losses" (profits will still be relocated back to low tax uk) will be offset by economic gains elsewhere. Our unemployment is at record low yet we have lost 300,000 (?) banking jobs - swings and roundabouts
@aracer have a look at the 60 existing EU trade deals, the vast majoroty are with tiny countries and are for political not economic reasons.
We are definitely working out the details with those countries just in a low key way given EU sensitivities. All signed within 3-12 months of March 2019 is my view
@igm real wages only rise with improvements in productivity and post financial crises you (certainly I) would have expected far larger falls in living standards. Having to wean yourself off living on credit is painful.
(profits will still be relocated back to low tax uk
Centering European profits in the UK will no longer be possible post Brexit. Profits will have to be booked and taxes paid somewhere in the EU. Probably Ireland, Luxembourg or some other tax haven unless agreement can be reached to put a end to fiscal dumping within the EU. One of those things that need working on.
Labour abstentions - roughly 10% of Labour MPs defied Corbyn. A taste of his own medicine
LABOUR REBELS IN FULL
Just seven Labour MPs voted with the government:
Ronnie Campbell
Frank Field
Kate Hoey
Kelvin Hopkins
John Mann
Dennis Skinner
Graham StringerAbstentions (for various reasons):
Ian Austin
Kevin Barron
David Crausby
Caroline Flint
Yvonne Fovargue
David Hanson
Helen Jones
Kevan Jones
Gerard Killen
Madeleine Moon
John Spellar
Anna Turley (ill)
Derek Twigg
Rosie Winterton
Are they the traitors Len Mccluskey was referring to on R4 this morning.
Xenophobes and tories in the wrong party plus scared of racists in their constituencies by and large. Shows how out of touch many labour MPs are. Unfit for purpose
scared of racists in their constituencies
Democrats, in other words?
Tricky thing this representative democracy isn't it?
ropean profits in the UK will no longer be possible post Brexit. Profits will have to be booked and taxes paid somewhere in the EU.
Not true. It depends on the activity and the response of individual banks (eg, branches v subsidiaries )
Democrats, in other words?Tricky thing this representative democracy
😉
Oops - UK inflation at 2.9%, with specific ONS reference to £ effect. You may need to adjust the wage conclusion Jambas I'm afraid 😉
molgrips - Member
scared of racists in their constituencies
Democrats, in other words?Tricky thing this representative democracy isn't it?
as the Jambfacts have highlighted Brexit has made everyone poorer, looks to offer not a sngle benifit and still people support it
xenophobia is a powerful tool!
Are they the traitors Len Mccluskey was referring to on R4 this morning.
with modern labour you can be a traitor one month and a loyalist the next...
the only reason corbyn wanted to vote against was to cause chaos in the hope of overturning the government - anything to increase his chances of getting into power - and then a hard brexit would be on the cards again.
with modern labour you can be a traitor one month and a loyalist the next...the only reason corbyn wanted to vote against was to cause chaos in the hope of overturning the government - anything to increase his chances of getting into power - and then a hard brexit would be on the cards again.
it was only the utter incompetence of the Tories calling the last election pushing their hard brexit rhetoric that made this vote so much closer than the 1st one, not to mention the many holes in the legislation, teh Tories's grip on power is tenuous, and all thanks to a series of unforced errors!
xenophobia is a powerful tool!
such a disingenuous argument.
TurnerGuy - Member
xenophobia is a powerful tool!
such a disingenuous argument.
Why? Just look at trump or any other populist movement that uses it. It's a very powerful tool at motivating the right group of people, some will pinch their noses and go along with it too.
[quote=jambalaya ]We are definitely working out the details with those countries just in a low key way given EU sensitivities. All signed within 3-12 months of March 2019 is my view
😆 based on what evidence? How long does it take to agree a typical trade deal (between two non-EU countries)?
cite
Why?
because it is continually used here to imply that everyone that voted out is a xenophobe, which is BS.
aracer - we don't have the expertise or the people to work out trade deals as admitted by whitehall and trade deals take 10+ years to do.
Turnerguy - what other reason is there bar believing the lies of the europhobic press or harking back to ( imaginary) days of empire?
the biggest driver of brexit is xenophobia. I have heard no one give any coherent argument that is not one of these things
It's easy to understand how people think their wages have been driven down by immigration. You can see Polish plumbers working for less, and then you see your own wages not going up, so it's quite easy to draw that conclusion.
Then the Brexit campaigns simply drew on that and encouraged that misconception, and the remain campaign did not do enough to correct it.
And a lot of people thought they were voting to give more money to the NHS. That's a good thing, isn't it? Seems like most people don't know what the EU actually does for us, so why would they vote to give it money instead of the NHS?
[quote=TurnerGuy ]because it is continually used here to imply that everyone that voted out is a xenophobe, which is BS.
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When one strawman isn't enough.
[quote=tjagain ]aracer - we don't have the expertise or the people to work out trade deals as admitted by whitehall and trade deals take 10+ years to do.
I was hoping for an answer from jamba (yeah, I know 🙄 )
TurnerGuy - Member
Why?
because it is continually used here to imply that everyone that voted out is a xenophobe, which is BS.
Just that the xenophobic voted Leave it that all were. Keep up there or read what people have said. We have also had many other arguments for leaving that are equally bollocks so try one of them. In particular I like eu superstate fear it really brings out the paranoid.
tjagain - MemberTurnerguy - what other reason is there bar believing the lies of the europhobic press or harking back to ( imaginary) days of empire?
the biggest driver of brexit is xenophobia. I have heard no one give any coherent argument that is not one of these things
Yes you have.
I've given reasons why people voted out in this very thread that are nothing to do with xenophobia.
I'm not going to repeat myself as your opinions are so infamously pathologically entrenched, but it was around the time in the thread that I suggested that Brexit was the fault of vocal remainers suggesting that only thickos and racists would vote leave. 😆
but it was around the time in the thread that I suggested that Brexit was the fault of vocal remainers suggesting that only thickos and racists would vote leave
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In particular I like eu superstate fear it really brings out the paranoid.
Just because you call it bollocks, doesn't mean people are paranoid.
There may never be an EU superstate, but ever since the ECSC that is the direction it has headed.
This is old ground.
Jesus H Christ kimbers, I used a smiley there was no need for that.
For the benefit of others, you can use adblockplus to hide offensive images.
of course t was more complicated than just being xenophobic, but at its core its dislike of the EU, you cant get away from that being xenophobic
loads of different factors overlapped, less educated, older, reading definitely not xenophobic sun/express/mail all big determinant of the leave voters
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/why-did-people-vote-for-brexit_uk_5847d0dbe4b0bba967c1807c
im not saying racism (though as billy bragg said...) but xenophobia, which is fear rather than hatred of the other (but as Yoda said...)
One of the factors that differentiates a remainer from a remoaner is the ability to recognise that leave vote reflected many aspects - some right, most wrong - and that "we lost" a vote that we should have won.
Plus there is the delicious irony of those who campaigned hard for self-determination EVEN IF is had ST negative economic implications one moment and then lambast others doing exactly the same thing later. What's worse, the former were looking for independence from one of the most successful unions in history, the latter from a much less successful (and ultimately flawed) version.
Odd world.
but at its core its dislike of the EU, you cant get away from that being xenophobic
You can't imagine it not being xenophobic, I get that, but it doesn't make it true.
Some of my family voted leave (which is why I'll chip in when I hear the leavers=thick racists bullshit espoused by so many on here), that doesn't make them xenophobes.
I've mentioned before how much of a mongrel I am, having family from many different European countries. It would interesting to know which countries they're supposed to be afraid of. 💡
[quote=teamhurtmore ]Plus there is the delicious irony of those who campaigned hard for self-determination EVEN IF is had ST negative economic implications one moment and then lambast others doing exactly the same thing [s]later[/s] earlier.
fixed - and at least Scottish independence didn't result in an Irish border problem.
Kimber,
Imagine if I was the person posting the photo of Mr Farage there would be a riot. However, since you are the one posting that [b]everyone is happy[/b]. I am happy with that photo and his facial expression. 😆
[quote=sbob ]Some of my family voted leave (which is why I'll chip in when I hear the leavers=thick racists bullshit espoused by so many on hear), that doesn't make them xenophobes.
So what were their reasons for voting Leave?
chewkw - Member
Kimber,Imagine if I was the person posting the photo of Mr Farage there would be a riot. However, since you are the one posting that everyone is happy. I am happy with that photo and his facial expression
no , it makes me queezy tbh
I see he was in germany this weekend rallying his far-right chums, whining that Brexit wasnt being discussed in Germany 🙄
Even by your standards the above is bs thm.
All the member states have fair representation in the EU. I would say that is not the case in the UK government.
You appear not to understand that 62% of Scots voted remain not 62% who knows for certain what per centage had were pro Indy or indeed against Indy.
Isn't it ironic that some of those who campaigned so hard against self determination for in 2014 campaigned hard for self determination as they saw it in 2016.
Yet you chose not to mention that. Odd world indeed
kimbers - Member
no , it makes me queezy tbh
You posted that photo to "torture" yourself? 😆
He is entitled to do as he wish just like you are entitled to do as you wish, all within the law of course. 😀I see he was in germany this weekend rallying his far-right chums, whining that Brexit wasnt being discussed in Germany
sbob - Member
tjagain - MemberTurnerguy - what other reason is there bar believing the lies of the europhobic press or harking back to ( imaginary) days of empire?
the biggest driver of brexit is xenophobia. I have heard no one give any coherent argument that is not one of these things
Yes you have.
I've given reasons why people voted out in this very thread that are nothing to do with xenophobia.
Nope - not seen a single reason that does not fitr in with those 3 things ever anywhere
Fear of a european superstate? - a mix of xenophobia and belief in the lies.
sorry dude - you are simply wrong. No one ever in any debate has given any reason bar those ones I have given.
.All the member states have fair representation in the EU
Gordi, that is brilliant to read over a post lunch coffee. I salute you, my keyboard however, curses you.
So come on Sbob - put up or shut up
what reasons are there for voting out that are not xenophobia, believing the lies of the xenophobic right or harking back to imaginary days of emipire?
Nope - not seen a single reason that does not fitr in with those 3 things ever anywhere
What about my post?
'Believing the lies of the xenophobic press' is not actually being xenophobic, is it?