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All reflects badly on Labour, Starmer and Corbyn though.
For you, maybe. For those who are actually concerned about democracy, accountability and not having a government behaving like medieval monarchs, it makes perfect sense for the Labour party to take the stance they are.
The fact that none of them will vote against it tells you more about the present state of the Tory party, and how far to the authoritarian hard right it has traveled
Whichever way you try and spin it, its an affront to democracy, and should simply not be happening
Jezza's back this morning talking about membership of the Single Market again. He flip flops more than you Binners!!!
But apparently the party hasn't changes it position - true, it's still CONFUSED and INCONSISTENT
I'd rather have inconsistent than unhinged
If the EU impose a border on Ireland that's their choice. We are NOT obliged to come up with a solution which meets their every whim,
It's not a question of "want", though, from either side. My understanding is that WTO rules (remember them?)require that no trading partner can be given better terms than another (the so-called 'most favoured nation' principle). After Brexit, the UK simply [u]cannot[/u] have an open border with the EU unless it also opens its borders with all other countries. Similarly, the EU would need to have an open border policy with all other countries as soon as it has an open border with us.
So unless we all also leave the WTO, what you suggest is simply impossible.
I think you might have over-simplified there PhilO.
But, no, I don't see how the borderless border idea can be made to work either.
teamhurtmore - Member
Jezza's back this morning talking about membership of the Single Market again. He flip flops more than you Binners!!!
But apparently the party hasn't changes it position - true, it's still CONFUSED and INCONSISTENT
its called constructive ambiguity 😆 THM and its how you outsmart your opponents into backing a hard brexishambles, whilst keeping the divided electorate happy
once in power you have to dissapoint someone or more likely, everyone...
Amazing how people, indeed how many people fall for it. Did Jezza learn from the Brexshiteers after all. Like them he is certainly much better than the Tories at manipulating social media.
Over simplification? Quite possibly. It's impossible to discuss international law without simplification! 😉 IANAL, and it's a subject that last came up in lectures about 15 years ago, so my understanding will certainly be imperfect.
However, it's a point which was made by an ex- Irish Tisioch (sp?) in a radio interview a couple of weeks ago, and I assume he'd be more up-to-date than I.
Than me ( sorry )
Based on a Tweet from Sky News Corbyn's position is identical to that of May's. Exit THE single market, retain tariff free access via a custom negotiated deal ?
Labour insists the party's position has not changed
Eaerlier, Jeremy Corbyn said he wanted the UK to continue to "trade within the single market" and said it was "open for discussion" whether this should involve formal membership.
Speaking on BBC Radio 4's World at One, Mr Corbyn said: "We want a relationship which allows us to trade within the single market."
"Whether that's formal membership - which is only possible, I believe, if you are actually a member of the EU - or whether it's an agreed trading relationship, is open for discussion."
A spokesman said: "We won't be 'members' of the single market after the transition.
"We want to achieve full tariff-free access to the single market. That could be achieved by a new relationship with the single market or a bespoke trade deal with the EU."
@PhilO no officially it would not be an open border with the EU, just in Northern Ireland there would be very very "lax" checks. Tariffs would still be due. Anyway this was just my last resort option if the EU refuse to agree anything
Earlier poster taked about not seeing UK customs posts being built in Dover. That's because they are already in Calais at the Eurotunnel / Ferry terminal, no ? We pass through UK customs in France every trip - we also provide API for UK->France and I assume post Brexit we'll do that for France->UK. If France wishes to cancel the Le Touquet agreement then we'll have the customs in Dover/Folkstone with API/VISA checks in France as per the Airline model
His interview said he was fine with a norway option
just more constructive ambuigty to let the tories skewer themselves and own their hard brexishambles
🙂
"Whether that's formal membership - which is only possible, I believe, if you are actually a member of the EU - or whether it's an agreed trading relationship, is open for discussion."
Hehe.. yes, constructive ambiguity is a good word for it. The boy's learning fast isn't he? Not stupid.
Jamba - really you are so far detached from reality over the NI border. ITS THE UK putting the border in because of leaving the EU - are you really happy with an open border? No one politically is. There has to be a hard border or we don't leave the EU.
A commentator on Tageschau was asked about Britain's threat to become a tax haven. He replied that's what Britain already was so it wouldn't make any difference. Who says the German's don't have sense of humour?
Jamba - Corbyn's words were quite interesting (I heard them direct rather than via a tweet) and he was open to remaining in the single market though not insisting on it.
THM - the only reason I posted it was the publication. If it had been in the Indy or Gruniad or even the Times it would have been uninteresting.
On the Irish border - leave it open then. I'd give it 5 minutes before right whingers anonymous are complaining about uncontolled migrants coming into Britain via it.
very good TV documentary on Britain saturday on ARTE ( french, german cultural channel ) .
I never realized quite how complicated the NI border is . There was a petrol station with the forecourt crossed by the border !
I watched the one on Germany the week before, Chris. Excellent. I'm watching the British one later on [url= http://www.tv-replay.fr/un-jour-au-royaume-uni/ ]Arte replay[/url]
Yes we saw he program too. To be honest I thought the walls dividing Catholic and Protestant areas had been taken down so it was a surprise to see them still there.
TJ no it really is not the UK creating this problem. We have said no border. The Common Travel Area existed before we joined the EEC. Every day the EU's conduct reminds me why we had to Leave. We will be so much better off outside
IGM its proposed all EU citizens will have 3-6 month tourist visas anyway. Checks can be carried out on those seeking work and API for travel to the mainland ? I think's it's managable. There will always be complainers
Jamba - thats utter nonsense and contradicted by May and company. There has to be a customs border either between NI and Eire or between the island of ireland and the UK.
this is a simple fact and incontrovertible. Common travel area does not mean no border!
Its the UK causing the problem and the UK that needs to find a solution. Trouble is Mays lot of numpties think they can manage a border with wishes and fairy dust and quite rightly have been called out for the nonsense this is my the Irish and the EU
Even the rabid brexiteers acknowledge there has to be a customs border.
If there is no customs boarder then its simply a route for tariff breaking and illegal immigrants
Will the Irish border be to brexshiteers what the currency was for the Scottish Gnats?
yes those walls were very humbling and scary .
i take it you saw the farmers worried about loosing their cheap EU labor ?
Ignoring all the Brexit Blair nonsense for a moment I though this segment on Conor McPherson's play featuring the music of Bob Dylan was the best thing on Andrew Marr
https://twitter.com/MarrShow/status/906860677037408259
IGM - I know, I was teasing 😉
Hence why we arranged to join the EEC at the same time, and why we both have exceptions as regards Schengen.The Common Travel Area existed before we joined the EEC.
Now we are unilaterally ****ing it all up.
Well, it was raised a lot during the campaign, and no Leave supporters (or anyone) had an answer that makes sense… but it didn't cut through because a lot of people don't care what happens in Irealnd, or anywhere else apart from their own little corner of Europe.Will the Irish border be to brexshiteers what the currency was for the Scottish Gnats?
teamhurtmore - Member
IGM - I know, I was teasing
Fair enough. I bit.
And to be fair the MoS has never been quite as Brextremist as the DM.
If there is no customs boarder then its simply a route for tariff breaking and illegal immigrants
No.... coz technology !
Im thinking it means this
[img] 
[/img]
Start with more basic technology kimbers.
They'll need to master levers, ramps and wheels first.
take it you saw the farmers worried about loosing their cheap EU labor ?
With my terrible French I must have missed that 😉 .... yes I did however IMO it will all be worked out, cheap/free short term work visas for agricultural labour (as long as they are not entitled to any in work benefits and they will need ehic cards for medical cover)
TJ I take your point however there really is no need to police it in a traditional border crossing / customs sense. In the many dozens of times I have sailed between UK and France I have only once ever been asked for any passport / customs info. In theory you are supposed to fly a special flag and report to customs on arrival. I don't even bother to take my passport these days, haven't done for 15 years
Yes, yes, that is exactly the experience of the average man in the street. It'll continue to be plain sailing for all of us I'm sure…
To avoid myopia taking over
in view of the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland, flexible and imaginative solutions will be required, including with the aim of avoiding a hard border, while respecting the integrity of the Union legal order
Who could say that kind of stuff? Flexible and imaginative, honestly 😉
So what you are saying Big J, is immigration and customs only applies to folk without their own boats?
😉
Jmba - and now its going to be very differnt when crossing the channel!
Why is there no need to police it? Have we no need to police the calais / dover border? Or every international airport?
I can't help laughing at Brexit tonight. I may get more morose if I have a beer later, but Davis et al are wonderful comedians and Brexies talking about legible and imaginative is comedy gold.
Corbyn's new flexibility as regards the Single Market is welcome, if muddled. Muddled seems to be relative at the moment…
don't forget [s]conviction politician[/s] opportunistic and misleading
teamhurtmore - MemberTo avoid myopia taking over
in view of the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland, flexible and imaginative solutions will be required, including with the aim of avoiding a hard border, while respecting the integrity of the Union legal orderWho could say that kind of stuff? Flexible and imaginative, honestly
Presumably they meant imaginary. There simply can't be a hard border in Ireland without it being enforced militarily.
from a columnist in the Grauniad made me giggle"The EU will be damaged if Britain crashes out of the EU, the way your suit is ruined with blood stains if the person standing next to you decides to shoot themselves in the foot."
Who's they jimjam?
TJ I was just pointing out that laws and treaties can exist but the "on the ground" policing can show flexibility, same with the sailing example. Kelvin well we've had the Referendum as won so the Irish border can't have the impact the currency question had in Scotland. If the UK and EU can't reach an agreement then I have no doubt the French, Germans and even the US will get directly involved and bang heads together.
People smuggling, and border guard bribing? Is that what you mean?TJ I was just pointing out that laws and treaties can exist but the "on the ground" policing can show flexibility, same with the sailing example.
I think that's what I said. It didn't cut through. No workable proposals were laid out by anyone, and sizeable chunk of the population just did not, and still do not care, about what happens in Ireland, or elsewhere in Europe.Kelvin well we've had the Referendum as won so the Irish border can't have the impact the currency question had in Scotland
They did get involved. They said stay in the EU. What will they propose now? That the border can be kept open if we carry on much as we were before? Norway+ here we come… FoM and all.…If the UK and EU can't reach an agreement then I have no doubt the French, Germans and even the US will get directly involved and bang heads together.
Something to annoy everyone …
[b][i]“We expect the EU to offer a choice between a close relationship in which the UK can participate in the single market and customs union but will be bound by the EU rules of the game, and an arm's length relationship in the UK, in which the UK achieves full sovereignty over borders, courts and laws, but does not participate in the single market and the customs union.”[/i][/b]
Having watched the Arte programme I hope they make an English version and get it out on a British channel or DVD. Excellent.
Jamba - its still nonsense. Want out of the EU then we must have a hard border as must the EU. Its as simple as that. Otherwise smuggling of people and goods has an obvious route.
What's there to get annoyed at in MS pushing a no deal scenario to support their recommendations?
Irish border can't have the impact the currency question had in Scotland. If the UK and EU can't reach an agreement then I have no doubt the French, Germans and even the US will get directly involved and bang heads together.
Lol, a soft NI/Irish border would make it a tax dodge heaven on imports the EU wouldn't care, the US less so, it would only hurt UK import tax revenue.
We have to move from an imaginary cake and eat it scenerio to something else… and I wouldn't be surprised if the main political parties actual start to move in opposite directions… they can't both stay where they are. Corbyn might well see an opportunity and let his party move towards the first option… where as there are plenty on May's benches, and in her cabinet, openly saying they can cope with the second option. The political upheaval that MS are signalling could easily follow on from that.What's there to get annoyed at in MS pushing a no deal scenario to support their recommendations?
If there is no solution to the Irish birder, why are the EU insisting on finding it before moving on to the crux of the debate and why did we accept the agenda? How very odd.
Are you suggesting that they are essentially in the same place at the moment kelvin? Are you also suggesting that a party led by [s]a conviction politician[/s] old Jezza might not stand by its commitment to voters?
There is a solution, and it means the NI operating inside the SM&CU.
If there is a solution, why have the greatest minds available in the govt failed to come up with it yet?
How very odd.
It's not odd, it's a problem the UK created, EU know damn well there's no solution, well there is and that's to have an uncontrolled border that the UK government could never stomach after all the grandstanding about taking back control of our own borders.
It's a UK problem the UK has responsibility to solve.
Roflcopter!
Because it means making a political decision, for which there in no consensus, inside or outside of government. See the first option that MS highlighted in that piece above. Simple. Currently unacceptable to the people May needs to keep onside to stay in power.If there is a solution, why have the greatest minds available in the govt failed to come up with it yet?
Have you lot figured out a way to stop it yet?
Nope, but not about to pretend that it shouldn't be stopped.
All us remain folk just need to relax, few if any of us will suffer that much.
Sit back maybe cash a few ISAs and buy a few decent bottles of wine, enjoy the Nemesis simply roll out...
Said it before some lessons have to be learned the hard way.
Example 1. Farmers (who voted Brexit on mass) will suffer via subsidies and lack of cheap labour.
Example 2. Working Poor will pay much more for the things that keep them alive.
Example 3. The unemployed will have a raft of veg picking jobs to choose from.
I could go on but my cheese board and Merlot is calling.
It's the natural order of things, evolution of the species...
thecaptain - MemberIf there is a solution, why have the greatest minds available in the govt failed to come up with it yet?
Because they don't like the solutions available which are
1) give NI special status to remain in the single market and put the hard border in the Irish sea - DUP won't stand for that.
2) Give NI to Eire - can you imagine the apoplexy?
3) Put a hard border beetween Eire and NI - a breach of the peace agreements and would somewhat upset the nationalists
May and co. put themselves into this political check/mate long before they even started to think they should be thinking about practicalities.
937 pages of the finest minds of Singletrack and where are we!
At the beginning… multiple contradictory versions of life outside the EU, all of which the majority of people are against, many of which require other counties to do as they're told.
Well I think most of us have long since realised it's a complete bit of a mess that should have been abandoned long ago.
But as things are, I'm mostly just sitting back and enjoying the show. If the Tories make themselves unelectable for a generation then that's a bonus.
[quote=teamhurtmore ]If there is no solution to the Irish birder
I think I agree with you, and we both agree with TJ - because what you presumably mean is that there is no solution which is actually acceptable to all parties and wouldn't be likely to result in a resurrection of violence.
why are the EU insisting on finding it before moving on to the crux of the debate
Are you suggesting they should just ignore it and hope it goes away? It might not be what excites the Brexiteers, but for the EU it is part of the crux of the debate.
We have a paradox here - fundamentally this is a problem which must be solved before Brexit happens, yet there is no possible solution to it. Even the "no deal" scenario doesn't provide a solution, because that just results in TJ's option 3 which breaches the peace agreements. I wonder what we could possibly do to avoid the problem?
why are the EU insisting on finding it before moving on to the crux of the debate
Because its one of the 3 key things that need to be settled first by any logical standard. Its one of the most critical aspects
tjagain - MemberBecause they don't like the solutions available which are
1) give NI special status to remain in the single market and put the hard border in the Irish sea - DUP won't stand for that.
2) Give NI to Eire - can you imagine the apoplexy?
3) Put a hard border beetween Eire and NI - a breach of the peace agreements and would somewhat upset the nationalists
You missed an option:
4) Come up with a fudge with hand-wavey talk of "frictionless borders" and hope that no-one notices. Don't look behind the curtain.
Suggestion : we stop saying "possible solution" and say instead "acceptable solution"?yet there is no possible solution to it.
5) pretend that lax haphazard policing of a border is the same as no border
937 pages of the finest minds of Singletrack and where are we!
A lot better informed than at the start.
I'm more aware of how much being in the EU has contributed to the development of member states and in some cases brought them from almost feudal states to modern economies. The UK has benefitted more than most from inward investment as a low tax English-speaking zone with full access to EU markets. The down side being that oil money has invaded the country so a lot is now foreign owned.
I knew the City was the most important trading platform on the planet but hadn't realised how much it depended on a special tax régime within the UK and how much tax evasion it facilitated. If it were excluded from the EU I think this would be a good thing for the EU.
That London has benefitted enormously from the migration of the world's financial expertise to the City and Canary Warf to become a centre of excellence within the EU.
That the UK is highly dependent on the importation of foodstuffs and energy. So much so that a low pound is a real problem for the working poor even if the rest of the economy can adapt to exchange rate changes.
That the country is even more of an oligarchy than I realised with a few rich people with the same backgrounds pulling the string behind the scenes and manipulating a gullible population through control of the media and sold-out politicians.
I may add more later.
It's a UK problem
😯 or 😉
No aracer. It's obvious why the EU have put 2/3 first conditions up front. As always it's to prevent proper negations from starrting. That is their modus operandi.
we should not ignore it, but we should reject the EUs BS agenda.
But they are winning the media war and their false narrative is being swallowed by the uncritical of thought
If you are trying to get a win win situation it's totally ILLOGICAL to put the current agenda up for consideration
A lot better informed than at the start.
Could you give some examples?
He said 'illogical' in caps, people.
That means it's super important!
Hey, you are getting it now.
It's obvious why the EU have put 2/3 first conditions up front. As always it's to prevent proper negations from starrting. That is their modus operandi.
Hang on - are you seriously criticising the EU for protecting their interests? Pretty obvious thing for them to do no? Of course we have incompatible positions, that's why it's such a bloody stupid idea. Making instant adversaries out of allies. How utterly pointless.
Given the importance of the issue and the vast abuse of power being proposed it's good to see a packed HoC debating with vigour and authority
Setting an excellent example of how they expect to manage the whole process. Good for them, The whips must have been busy.
Those 3 things are the most important issues - thats why they are first and the EU negotiators knew they would be difficult so want them done first so as to get a solution.
Note the EU had its postions in place before May was even prime minister and have stuck to these positions unlike the brit side who don't actually know what they are doing and keep on promising impossible things
No I am critical of our government and the public for swallowing it.
The EU have lots to lose. They should be trying to negotiate instead of avoid it.
But it's Mary, mungo and midge that matter not their lackeys
So the EU is essentially a free trade zone based in four freedoms. A major changing is taking place between the major players in the trade. So the priority for negotiation is [s]future trade regimes[/s] where ae we going to get our money from?
Well I think most of us have long since realised it's a complete bit of a mess that should have been abandoned long ago.
You have summed up my thoughts on the EU 8)
EU negotiating team holes to push UK into remaining in single market/eea/Customs union via Norway type deal as the "only" solution the NI border issue.
TJ no point smuggling people and goods into NI as you still have to get them to the mainland, would be just as simple to go direct. NI itself is too small a market to be overly worried about lost duties etc.
@Edukator interesting comment on tax, in 2006 (admitedly the peak) tax and national insurance on City bonuses alone raised £10bn. That's down to £4bn now but still a lot of money. Then of course there are all the supporting jobs and corporate tax. London's Finance is hardly Apple in Ireland or Amazon/Starbucks in Luxembourg is it when it comes to tax incentives.
I see the predictions of economic gloom from the Remainers continue.
THM - if the Irish birder (I too use a phone for this website so I am showing solidarity) is a virtually impossible task, then you can go early on it and fail at the start or go late and fail at the end. 50:50 but I'd go early.
And if there is special status for NI then I know the next of the countries in the UK that will be queuing for special status. The (Westminster) Tories can probably do without that.
[quote=jambalaya ]EU negotiating team holes to push UK into remaining in single market/eea/Customs union via Norway type deal as the "only" solution the NI border issue.
Presumably you're going to suggest the alternative solution?
I see the predictions of economic gloom from the Remainers continue.
Jamba - not really predictions any more are they? Death by a thousand cuts.
The EU have lots to lose. They should be trying to negotiate instead of avoid it.
Indeed, however too much vested interest in Brussels, gray train protection excersize. They care kess about economic prosperity in the member states. Also trying to head off the mother of all budget disputes "east v west" "givers v takers". France and Germany have been preocupied with domestoc elections so have passed the buck. Temporarily I would wager. As per the Politco prediction I think the EU will go no where with negotiatins until there is a crises summit in Sep 2018 at which France and Germany will come up with a deal.