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I am surpirised at the reaction to incorporating existing laws directly into U.K. Law. The alternative is far worse and frankly implausible
Still made for more excellent remoan headlines. It's Xmas for papers and other media sources - they don't even need to cover JRM non comments on abortion really....
A deliberate attempt to miss the point THM?
I can't see a a down side to an attempt to intergrare EU law into our ours....
I can see a SIGNIFICANT & WORRYING issue if it's attempted without any oversight whatsoever.
Which is EXACTLY what is being attempted....
That's piss-poor THM. Not one single complaint about integrating EU law into UK law. Multiple valid complaints about omitting some details and giving ministers almost unlimited powers to rewrite it as they see fit. Don't forget these could be labour ministers in a few weeks and I'm sure you wouldn't like what they would do!
The alternative is such a lose lose and the economic arguments are so obvious that only ridiculous political self interest could trump this - oh, wait a minute.....
Exactly, this is nothing about economics. It is politics. Ask yourself why May is so very anti immigrant, ask yourself how badly the HO has been run for the last decade at least.
This really is at risk of going very badly wrong. A very simple question, have you seen any effort being put into recruiting for the new EuroTom replacement, what about air traffic control, medicines, etc etc etc. There are a large number of EU agencies that need to be replicated and need to be staffed. It has taken c10 years to implement a new customs system and the likelyhood of it being redesigned and ready in 18months! How about the extra border guards needed to police the system and carry out checks.
You could argue that the French should put extra staff on and the UK can carry on, but the simple solution, le the queues build up, why should the french pick up the tab?
Again, imagine the opposite, plus in my line of work the rapid integration of EU laws is a major benefit. But then again we are getting on with things too
The EU is always driven by politics. As before though this gets trumped by economics in the end - ask the poor and the young of S Europe
Ironic that there was little (myself apart) reaction when Scottish Gnats proudly admitted that the (significant) economic costs of independence were a price worth paying for taking back control.....
We live in a twisted mixed up world - alternatively, reactions are driven simply by anti-Tory prejudice rather than logical and consistent analysis. It is STW after all!!
plus in my line of work the rapid integration of EU laws is a major benefit.
Which is what exactly?
Now I realise you like to bash the scots nats at every opportunity but the Brexit people did not say we will be poorer economically but we will have freedom and it is a price worth paying - it was all we will save known untrue £350 per week for the NHS and still have access to the market. I am not sure what the point is here except for you to have a pop at the scottish natsIronic that there was little (myself apart) reaction when Scottish Gnatsproudly admitted that the (significant) economic costs of independence were a price worth paying for taking back control.....
Aye everyone has a political bias but you apparently...I dont know if you believe this but no one else does.We live in a twisted mixed up world - alternively, reactions are drive far note by anti-Tory prejudice rather than logical and consistent analysis. It is STW after all!
I am surpirised at the reaction to incorporating existing laws directly into U.K. Law.
I hope your report is just for fun then. Since I havent seen any negative reaction to incorporting the existing laws into UK law (not even from the frothing brexiteers which is odd).
What I have seen is very sensible objections to granting the government unlimited power. Although again oddly enough not from the brexiteers which is very odd considering how much they rant about will of the people and democracy.
No it's for £££s 😉
In this specific case the U.K. had been at the centre of establishing the EU laws which are also highly aligned with global standards. Hence pace of implementation/integration outweighs other issues especially for those wanting to get on with life. Delays on the other hand represent a major negative.
Delays on the other hand represent a major negative.
If only our glorious leader -1 hadnt decided to put everyone through a leadership election and then our current glorious leader hadnt decided to go one better and have a full election.
Then we might have had enough time to plan a bit better without granting the glorious leader (or whatever loony replaces her) complete power.
If only....
As before we have to deal with what's in front of us, not what we wish was in front of us.
Brexshit is happening, like it or not.
So the frothing brexies in the Tory party have written a public letter to May to try and kill of a transition deal.
Is this just to destabilise May, piss off the EU & send us crashing out without a deal or just for shits n giggles?
It's because they're ****ing insane!
Simple as that really.
Brexshit is happening, like it or not.
I am not sure of the direct relevance of that to the ministerial power grab? Or why people are sensibly objecting to that attempt to centralise power.
There are strong arguments against a Transition deal, the rest of the world works with WTO and we trade with the rest of the world. A WTO Brexit would give a clean break, business [b]would[/b] just deal with it and move on. Would need significant customs investment (remember we are already fhe EU's largest importer from outside the zone so we have the infrastructure it just needs to be scaled up). As before read fhe piece I and other posted yesterday.
May is (imo) only supporting a transition deal to hedge her bets, we are not certain of getting a sensible one from the EU (May's plan is clearly to agree something similar to current eu budget payments for 2 years whilst moving to our new arrangements).
If she was really bold she'd just go WTO in 2019 and negotiate a new free trade deal afterwards, the EU will take years whilst we move forward with US, Japan, Canada, Australia, NZ, India etc etc
It was the status quo vs the great unknown.
No @molly Remain was a vote for a very different EU than the one we see today, it was effectively a vote for the Superstate with no future opportunity to exit ever. That was certain but it wasn't tye status quo. Leave was a vote for control, the right to determine our own future
If she was really bold she'd just go WTO in 2019 and negotiate a new free trade deal afterwards, the EU will take years whilst we move forward with US, Japan, Canada, Australia, NZ, India etc etc
What you forget Jamba, both Australia and India have called for a relaxation of immigration rules and the EU agreement with India stalled because of May and her anti immigration platform.
Davies (and May) have always been very clear that we will pay our LEGAL obligations. The EU [b]cannot[/b] show that their demand is a legal obligation as it is not. See the Law Lords analysis published yonks ago
The British Remoaning press are picking up every EU comment, there is hardly a line about it in France. I can't recall the last time Brexit was covered on the TV news.
We may be one of the largest importers from outside the EU but a HUGE proportion of those imports comes on large container ships into Antwerp and Rotterdam (along with goods for the rest of Europe). Economies of scale and all that, and the fact we no longer have any ports capable of handling ships that large. Post (hard) Brexit we are faced with either bringing goods in on smaller ships (more expensive) to UK ports and upgrading our complete infrastructure or continuing to bring stuff in from Rotterdam/Antwerp but with border checks at all the ports way above current levels. Ditto exports. It will be like operation Stack in Kent on a daily basis. Even if we start building today we won't have infrastructure in place in less than 10 years.
Sssssssshhhhhhhhhh..... don't let reality intrude into Jammers Brexit Fantasy Island
@mrmo I'll take eased visa access for both, beats freedom of movemnet all day long. India is the number 1 source of immigrants into California. Lots of super smart tech grads. Tory policy will support that IMO. The document leak was a warning shot to the EU about how May will not allow "any" immigration, that way the EU is not discriminated against
What will all the Brexit voters say when it means that there's more.... erm.... you know..... darkies?
@welsh (welcome back 🙂 ) you make a very good point however we can take large ships too plus shipping companies are very efficient at organising their vessels, they can and will transfer cargos at convenient stopovers. A WTO Brexit will see a loss of traffic for Dover in favour of regional ports like Southampton and Liverpool - thats a good thing IMO. Shipping is also cheap (relative to other costs) so an uptick in costs there is not that significant, again imo.
India is the number 1 source of immigrants into California
Someone really ought to let the Mexicans know
The vast majority of California’s immigrants were born in Latin America (52%) or Asia (39%). California has sizeable populations of immigrants from dozens of countries; leading countries of origin are Mexico (4.3 million), China (914,000), the Philippines (859,000), India (581,000), and Vietnam (507,000).
Amazingly something you said was not supported by the facts.
Who could have predicted this ?
I thought India etc wanted to increase student visas in exchange for a trade deal...
Gosh xenophobia is hard to maintain in a global world, who knew!
Good for me Binners, I voted Leave so we could have more "darkies" (your word) and less White Christians. As I said my Indian relatives don't appreciate freedom of movement from the EU vs them having to jump through hoops to visit / come here to work. As the Channel 4 piece with JRM and Jess Phillips showed, the ethically ****stani, British taxi driver was pro Leave anti-freedom of movement. It's pretty obvious why. The EU creates a huge anti-ethnic diversity bias.
No @molly Remain was a vote for a very different EU than the one we see today
You think this was all about politics, don't you?
A WTO Brexit will see a loss of traffic for Dover in favour of regional ports like Southampton and Liverpool - thats a good thing IMO. Shipping is also cheap (
How is Liverpool a convenient stop over for container traffic from anywhere other than possibly Ireland or the US?
Who'd have thought that an MP (from a party known to take bribes) our zombie PM bribed to align with her turns out to be rather fond of bribes...
[img] 
[/img]
Junkyard shall I report you now for calling me a racist last month ? Do you have a good lawyer ?
The section title is
[b]The majority of recent immigrants are from Asia[/b]
So here is the complete quote from the Public Policy Institute of California
[b]The majority of recent arrivals are from Asia.[/b]
The vast majority of California’s immigrants were born in Latin America (52%) or Asia (39%). California has sizeable populations of immigrants from dozens of countries; leading countries of origin are Mexico (4.3 million), China (914,000), the Philippines (859,000), India (581,000), and Vietnam (507,000). However, most (53%) of those arriving between 2011 and 2015 came from Asia; only 22% came from Latin America.
(Note Asia includes India and ****stan)
[img] 
[/img]
The document leak was a warning shot to the EU
😆
the rest of the world works with WTO
I asked weeks ago for you to list the top ten performing countries with no trade agreements or deals with other countries. You came up with sod all. No successful country is trading solely on WTO. Stop the bullshit. We all "work with WTO"… but reverting to WTO rules only will utterly cripple us. Stop the fantasy. We need new arrangements, fast.
Jammers - I can say with some certainty that your fellow Brexit voters prioritised giving immigrants from India an easier route into jobs in the U.K. Absolutely above every other consideration.
It actually warms my heart, their selfless sacrifice to embrace multiculturalism
So the frothing brexies in the Tory party have written a public letter to May to try and kill of a transition deal.
Is this just to destabilise May, piss off the EU & send us crashing out without a deal or just for shits n giggles?
No, when letters like this appear its almost always out of desperation.
Jammers - I can say with some certainty that your fellow Brexit voters prioritised giving immigrants from India an easier route into jobs in the U.K. Absolutely above every other consideration.It actually warms my heart, their selfless sacrifice to embrace multiculturalism
Me, from earlier:
Has there been any mention of low skilled workers from outside EU countries? Seems to me that immigration will continue, but with a workforce "free" of those rights and protections that EU citizens have, the very rights and protections our Government is stripping from us. Low tax, Low regulation, Low wage economy anyone?
The plan.
Jamba you really have no clue do you.
My company are looking at a bill of ~£1 million to ensure people keep getting medicines once your idiotic idols manage to drop us out of the eu with no Deal.
Of course this assumes we can actually recruit the right people that fast which would be a miracle as the recruitment phase i am going through its currently taking 6 months to get anyone good.
This has the potential to really impact on life saving medicines if an agreement isn't made, as the mhra does not have enough people to complete all of the requirements once everyone finally knows what they are
"Tens of thousands" - your wish won't come true Jamba, sadly.
I'd love a more liberal immigration policy for India, and it would be in our economic interest to have one.
You've helped to fully enable those who seek to keep good people out though. Well done.
It would be nice to have a reciprocal deal with India - rare in my experience of working there/with them since the 90s
And as for bloody visas - caveat might have changed as haven't been there for about 4 years now
What remoaners need to remember is that no deal is not going to happen. At the end of the day, common sense will prevail.
Both sides have far too much to lose. The exact balance does not matter. It's big for both and big enough to matter. So we either head towards a Norway style model with more compromise from us or a bespoke deal with equivalent arrangements as close to the status quo as possible.
The former would be quicker, the latter would be better. No other option works
So relax and [s]get on with [/s] enjoy the day job!
Jamba - you told me your reason for being anti-EU and it wasn't racist and it did ring true (even though I think it to be short sighted). However remember the posters the leave guys ran with the long line of non-white folk (and the words arranged to obscure the white guard escorting them)? I think Farage posed with it.
That was racist. And it didn't put folk off voting leave.
Draw your own conclusions.
Awesome. But in the mean time it's going to cost a crap load of money and time putting contingencies in place that will be canned as soon as we reach the promised land
At the end of the day, common sense will prevail.
That ain't going to please the Brexies, THM. Farage promised to riot if that sort of thing happened. 😉
Actually I hope it does, but I've seen precious little sign of it from the idiots representing us. A little more from the EU side.
Overall I find the EU negotiating team more impressive than ours - and I say that as someone who though of Davis as a grown up 12 months ago, albeit one I was unlikely to agree with on much except the sovereignty of parliament in the UK (pity high office has corrupted him in that).
True
Who's Farrage?
kelvin - MemberI'd love a more liberal immigration policy for India, and it would be in our economic interest to have one.
You've helped to fully enable those who seek to keep good people out though. Well done.
Prime Minister May is obviously the first person you'd turn to for a liberal, enlightened immigration policy that doesn't go against our economic interests, her record at the home office surely proves that oh god no.
Jamba, you've been played, and you're unlikely to accept it.
There will be no new more open policy towards India, or any other commonwealth countries. Sadly.
THM, where do you find the faith that those put in positions of power by Brexit won't double down, rather than compromise with our EU/EEA neighbours? I hope you are right. Or if you're wrong, that MPs haven't enabled those Brexit bonus ministers from taking us out without a deal of any kind, without any scrutiny by parliament… (see the bill being currently debated).
Who's Farrage?
Farage? If only I didn't know. 😕
Still, he's going to lose one of his jobs soon I think.
Apparently he's off addressing far-right rallies in Germany now...
That can only go well 😕
If she was really bold she'd just go WTO
CEO of jaguar-land rover on the evening news last night saying that there 'must' be a transition period, there 'has to be' a transition period. dropping on to WTO would be a 'critical blow' to his business. the 'sums are easy to do - the cost of WTO rules easy to calculate'. a 'massive loss of jobs' if that happens.
another one of these 'backward looking CEOs'?
WTO would be bad for banks, their clients and the wider economy
Some protesters recently demanding a better deal for immigrants from India
I think brexies like the WTO idea because it's simple, just drop/minimise all the tarrifs, no obligations, but it's simplistic, not simple,
the world is way more complicated than Brexiters would like it to be.
Just when you think they can't stoop any lower - the Maybot is going to attempt to fix parliamentary process....
"the Conservatives have previously claimed five of the nine MPs on the committee, but officials have ruled they are entitled to four only, after their Commons majority was destroyed in June."
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-theresa-may-powers-grab-plans-parliamentary-system-fix-a7935276.html ]TORY POWER GRAB[/url]
brexies like talking about WTO because it lets them pretend that it's all about tariffs of a few percent on a handful of imported goods when actually there are far more important and difficult issues to sort out than that.
Like, what to do about the RoI/NI border, how to manage our nuclear industry and all related issues (medical isotopes being particularly important), flying planes, approving medicines, international banking, rights of current EU residents in UK and vice-versa, building the necessary infrastructure to manage the customs and immigration checks, and a host of other things. None of which are touched upon by WTO rules and tariffs, and none of which have been meaningfully addressed yet by the govt.
Incidentally a couple of ERC grant-holders known to me are now making plans to leave the UK. These are basically the most prestigious and valuable grants available to scientists (at least in their fields) and they'll take them with them - along with their research labs - when they go. And FWIW on a smaller scale I'm currently visiting a German lab and expecting to work more with them in the future. Also considering options for setting up an EU base in case it's advantageous for EU research funding (I've heard Estonia is quite attractive, I wouldn't have to actually be there physically). Elderly relatives are keeping us in the UK for now but that won't last for ever.
mrlebowski - Member
Just when you think they can't stoop any lower - the Maybot is going to attempt to fix parliamentary process...."the Conservatives have previously claimed five of the nine MPs on the committee, but officials have ruled they are entitled to four only, after their Commons majority was destroyed in June."
TORY POWER GRAB
That, while being couched as procedural, is quite a worrying attack on our democracy.
and none of which have been meaningfully addressed yet by the govt.
Which, given the time available are bluntly impossible. Which then comes back to what are the hard brexit, no transistioners trying to achieve?
That, while being couched as procedural, is quite a worrying attack on our democracy.
Its only taking back control and making sure the "right" people have taken back control.
Its hard not to be pessimistic in research at the moment.
Between Maybots attacks on foreign students, the uncertainty for EU staff, the costs & barriers put up in the immigration plans, the falling £ stretching budgets, EMA moving somewhere & the associated costs to pharma, potential loss of funding (big gaps in the govs white paper on that) all the uncertainty making it very difficult to plan for the future- as projects are planned many years in advance.
Im sure ther are some bright sides, but as a remoaniac Im struggling to see them
Hmmm. 'Xactly mrmo
It seems to me that they're much more committed to, and expending considerably more energy on subverting democracy than they are in addressing any serious issues arising (i.e.: the Irish Border) in any meaningful way.
God only knows what they're planning under the cover of all this? One things for sure. It won't be in the interests of 99% of the population
I expect we'll be hearing the term "but we had no option but to......." from ministers over the next few years, as they use their new executive powers to drive through legislation they wouldn't have had a cat in hells chance of getting through parliament
Never waste a good crisis! Which is what's on the horizon of this shitstorm
Which then comes back to what are the hard brexit, no transistioners trying to achieve?
ask Corbyn...
Corbyn is quite wisely keeping quiet, letting Starmer fill out the details of a soft Brexit & letting the Tories get on with the self-harm!
I think they are trying to achieve what the leave camaign said they would achieve
Leave the EU with a trade deal in place
Anyone wish to claim we are even trying to achieve this?After we Vote Leave, British businesses will trade freely with the EU
which is still up on their website
this idea we voted for Hard brexit is just more BS ;they did not even campaign for it .
Weird how people who wanted to Take Back Control to our sovereign parliament are so unfussed about taking power away from it eh.
binners - MemberIt seems to me that they're much more committed to, and expending considerably more energy on subverting democracy than they are in addressing any serious issues arising (i.e.: the Irish Border) in any meaningful way.
At my work, we're firm believers in not letting a good crisis go to waste, it's basically the only way you get anything done. But you're always aware that there's a line between making the most mileage out of a crisis, and actually creating one. These guys, not so much.
Meanwhile, lets wait for the apologists to appear & tell us that it's all about economic expediency/procedural changes....that we really shouldn't be worried about the lack of oversight on the single biggest overhaul of UK law since the Magna Carta....
At my work, we're firm believers in not letting a good crisis go to waste
And if you have the money, Brexit is a dream opportunity. Look at how the collapse of the USSR made a few incredibly rich for a case study.
It seems to me that they're much more committed to, and expending considerably more energy on subverting democracy than they are in addressing any serious issues arising (i.e.: the Irish Border) in any meaningful way.
An interesting perspective albeit one that seems somewhat detached for what is actually going on behind the headlines
I have yet to hear a practical solution, from remoaners on how to handle the integration of EU law. But no surprise there...
You're sounding more and more like a leaver every day THM.I have yet to hear a practical solution, from remoaners on how to handle the integration of EU law. But no surprise there...
Not Remainers problem to solve but I don't know any who object to the great repeal bill. The objection is entirely about the transfer of power from Parliament to Ministers.
I have yet to hear a practical solution, from remoaners on how to handle the integration of EU law.
Well the current arrangement works quite well.....
Yep.
THM - Throwing away the checks and balances inherent in our parliamentary democracy to make Brexit a bit easier is a disgrace.
The same thing can be done but in line with normal democratic process.
I have yet to hear a practical solution, from remoaners on how to handle the integration of EU law. But no surprise there...
Parliament, it's called taking back control.
Votes not committees
Indeed so how do you solve the problem....
I am neither a leaver nor a remoaner. I am merely someone who is interested in minimising the uncertainty and risks that are associated with honouring the democratic decision taken to end our memberships of the EU. I believe that Brexshit is going to happen, hence I am only interested in solutions not the problems. Have little time for moaners in any capacity.
So I find myself aggreeing both with Starmer (specifically in the clause 17 issue) AND Davis ("listen to those who offer improvements). In contrast the wild accusations in papers and ^ are merely greeted with a combination of 😯 and 😀
Quite a good combo when you need a break from finishing writing real recommendations on what to do next after Brexshit!! Almost finished....
erent in our parliamentary democracy to make Brexit a bit easier is a disgrace.
The same thing can be done but in line with normal democratic
Go on then......how?
iPad off now - look forward to answer in the train 😉
Indeed so how do you solve the problem
Exactly.
You cannot criticise the lack of a solution to an impossible problem.
You're like the project managers I see who ignore the techies telling them something is difficult, commit to short timescales then blame the developers when it's not done. Whose fault is it?
THM - by going through the normal committee process with committee members selected in the normal way.
Next.
I have yet to hear a practical solution, from remoaners on how to handle the integration of EU law. But no surprise there...
I'd rather have a painful & fraught time overseeing EU law integration, rather than just let it be done on the quiet with no oversight at all..
Is that what you're happy to accept? No parliamentary consent on employment law? Food standards? Workers rights? Consumer rights? Environmental standards? F me, I could goon but hopefully you get the point.
Just because something is difficult doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted.
You are beginning to sound more like a Brexiteer with every post!
If not a Brexiteer, an apologist.....
I struggle to think which is actually worse.
I have yet to hear a practical solution, from remoaners on how to handle the integration of EU law. But no surprise there...
The practical solution to brexit is to not ****ing do it.
There you go, it was easy. You're welcome.
If you or any other brexiteers has a half-decent alternative, I'm all ears. You've had well over a year since the referendum (and could even have thought about it before then) and so far....bupkiss.
Don't pretend it's my fault that you reject the simple obvious solution and demand someone else come up with an alternative that doesn't exist.
I am merely someone who is interested in minimising the uncertainty and risks that are associated with honouring the democratic decision taken to end our memberships of the EU
Was it democratic? Just because there was a vote is that all that defines democracy? We know that the FN was funded by Putin, strong questions about CA, about UKIP, even it seems about the Tory brexiteers and misuse of funds.
There are even questions on whether the Referendum was legal and could trigger A50. The European court is about to rule on another of May's pet projects, the data collection bill.
Start joining the dots, and it really doesn't look the motivation was democratic. I guess you believe that Putin is a democratically elected politician?
This "respect democracy at all costs" thing is stupid. Just because something was voted on does not mean it is the best course of action.
There is a bit more to good government than simply having votes.
as igm says, appoint members to the committee in the normal way, don't try and populate it in the government's favour. they were pulled back to 4 out of 9 due to their number in parliament, but the government want 5 so they can push through whatever they want with a majority in committee that does not reflect their majority in parliament.
as a solution, they could just publish it all, and take a series of votes a few months later on chunks of it at a time. that would give journos and those interested time to go over it all, and parliament a chance to debate anything that gets flagged up. effectively crowd-sourced research.
there's a solution. it's not like parliament has anything else to do, all other business is off the table for, god knows how long, until this mess is cleared up.