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Macron is doing exactly what I suggested at the start of this thread, bring about change from within rather than leave. European rules are seen as unfair on many levels and the solution is to work to make things fairer. Why should a Pole working in France be paid less than the French minimum wage? It's unfair on the Pole and unfair on local worker who can't compete.
It's unfair that Google can make huge profits in Germany and bank them in Ireland.
While the EU is seen to tolerate abuses it will be unpopular and Brexit, Frexit or whatever will always have varying degrees of popular support. So European leaders need to work towards a fairer system with a playing field as level as possible.
Britain could have used its veto on many occasions to block the rules that led to Brexit. It didn't, the lobby groups bobbied and the rules went in favour of the lobbyists rather than the populace. The City first and foremost, the City will now pay the price.
Your/Macrons arguments are simply the same as those used by the Brits
Same argument about "fairness" to both domestic and foreign workers
Same target audience - the domestic one
Same tactic of extrapolating minor issues (postal workers which account for 1% of Fr employment) to mask the real issues but in order to pander to and pacify an ill informed domestic audience
So nothing to do with brexshit - everyone is at it. Perhaps they should all employ the soon to be redundant Bell Pottibger staff to spin it even more?
Same tactic of extrapolating minor issues (postal workers which account for 1% of Fr employment) to mask the real issues but in order to pander to and pacify an ill informed domestic audience
Having just listened to the 'debate' on Five Live regarding immigration, it was fairly predictably polarised into
1) Woefully ill-informed, bitter, Mail-reading old racists, who no doubt live in areas where there are no actual immigrants, claiming that they're all just here to claim benefits and get free NHS treatment
2) Business owners saying that without a migrant workforce they're absolutely stuffed! And that they're struggling to recruit already on account of the Brexit result. The workers are simply voting with their feet and going elsewhere in Europe
It's nice to know that the government is listening. Unfortunately, they're only listening to one of the above groups. And it's not the one they should be listening too
Still... the little Englanders must be appeased at all costs.
Brexit means Brexit, and all that
When does a foreign worker stop being foreign?
Um....when they naturalise? Is it a trick question?
I think it's something to do with cricket...
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Legally yes - but what about in the opinions of other people?
Anyone else chuckling at the Brexit voting farmers this morning as they realise brexit means no more easy access to EU workers.....
NFU in a right tiz this morning
Just wait until they find the truth out about the assurances of "yeah, yeah... of course, you'll still be getting the same subsidies you got from the EU. [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-40673559 ]Honest![/url]"
What have labour said?
good opportunity for them once again to show they are the party of economic common sense, rather than the Tories whos leaked doccument has managed to upset business leaders this morning
Farmers will get looked after, Tory version of a subsidised industry....
You shouldn't be a business leader if any of the leak was a surprise. Yes it's crap but none of the details are a surprise.
Jezza days much the same too - a trend here ?!?
Tory brexiteer gobshite Owen Paterson is on the radio telling us about the magical border between Ireland (the EU) and the UK (non EU) with regard to controlling our borders, and enforcing immigration/border control
To summarise...
Blah, blah, blah.... technology. Blah, blah, blah.... biometrics...
On having it pointed out that this hasn't ever been done before and isn't presently technologically possible, he then concluded with the statement "Oh I can't see it being too burdensome"
Once again the David Davis school of "I'm sure it'll all be fine"
I don't know about you, but it certainly inspires confidence in me that it will be
"Oh I can't see it being too burdensome"
How burdensome is the border between France and Switzerland? can't say I've ever found it to be a problem in the couple of dozen times or so I've been through it.
Yeah, and Switzerland is in Schengen. I wonder if there could be a link there?
Yeah, and Switzerland is in Schengen. I wonder if there could be a link there?
However Ireland isn't, ( and I don't think there seem to be any major problems at the Romanian, Bulgarian, Cypriot or Croatian borders either for what it's worth)
So? You were saying travel from France to Switzerland was easy. I was pointing out that's cos both are in Schengen. Up to you to explain why you think this is relevant to Ireland.
How burdensome is the border between France and Switzerland? can't say I've ever found it to be a problem in the couple of dozen times or so I've been through it.
Are you shipping car parts through it though? Paying for the privilege and then waiting weeks for the paper work?
[url= https://www.thelocal.ch/20150901/getting-the-lowdown-on-cross-border-shopping-duties ]Frictionless border between Switzerland and EU[/url]
Yes you can drive through the border and it is in the schegen zone, and of the times i have been i have only been held up once. However Swiss customs do hold cars for inspection, there are duties and paperwork that you are meant to pay.
In theory you are on duty free limits, 1? bottle wine etc. Take the UK out of the customs union and same rules apply.
Tory brexiteer gobshite Owen Paterson is on the radio telling us about the magical border between Ireland (the EU) and the UK (non EU) with regard to controlling our borders, and enforcing immigration/border control
What would you expect/prefer him to say?
Does the remain side (and the normally sensible) Sir Kier do any better:
[a transition period] also provides more time to resolve the complex question of the NI border. Labour is clear that this extremely serious issues must not be rushed [we have no answer either] and that a considered agreement [but we are trying] needs to be reached that prevents a hard border and ha support from all communities
NSS! And the clear proposal/solution is.......(quick I'm holding my breath)
Small wonder that the EU is insisting on progress here before moving on. Hmmm, let's think why..... (Don't hold yours)
THM - Sir K is looking for about 500 years to address the problem. It's been at least that long in the making.
If wonder what he is think when he says stuff like this.
"We are very clear on this issue and will even be able to give you an answer at some point......[leaves room and turns to aid].....one bloke looked a bit puzzled, but I think I got away with it"
with Gove it's a bit easier as he clearly has no problem making things up, but Starmer seems outwardly far too sensible to be wearing the emperor's new clothes too.
Still platitudes/distraction make you the prudent face of Brexshit apparently 😉
Right, so he clearly recognises that it's complicated (I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that he actually realises no reasonable solution is possible) and is not promising any magic solution that doesn't exist, but you still can't acknowledge this as being any better than the tories just pretending it can all be solved by fairies and an honesty box at the border?
ISTM that your blind allegiance to the tories really cripples your judgment.
Are you looking in the mirror?
I have stated many times that I would prefer to have SKS as part of the negotiation team along with the moderate PH. Did you blind allegiance lead you to miss that.
The point I am making is that no one has a solution yet, but it will involve some form of (as yet unknown) form of tech solution. They are both correct. To suggest or imply otherwise is mere remoaning nonsense.
What would you expect/prefer him to say?
Something making the remotest acknowledgement of reality, rather than some mad right-wing fantasyland might be nice.
If only for the novelty value
Go on.....
What would you expect/prefer him to say?
How about admitting that the Tories screwed up and that anything that they do puts them in breach of the GFA for a starter.
The simple problem is there is NO solution to the Irish border that respects the GFA. Of course this was pointed out, but that was project fear. Well here is one solution, but i don't think the DUP are ready for that....
i prefer to say Brexshiteers screwed up - IIRC the Tory Gov campaigned for remain, remember the fuss about use of funds? - but then again I don't have party allegiances that blind me 😉
Thank you for repeating the point that I have been making for q a while. There is no solution to the Irish border issue. Hence the choice of the EU to add it to the first round must be solves issues. They are canny little burgers aren't they?!?
but it will involve some form of (as yet unknown) form of tech solution
ranging from ...
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to this
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means nothing , you are david davis & I claim my free unicorn 😆
THM - If the Irish border issue cannot be solved (I doubt it can with the possible exception of reunification - still might not solve it) then why proceed with the rest of the negotiation?
In fact if it cannot be solved, can Brexit actually be done?
Sounds like a fundamental that you need to sort up front - no?
They are canny little burgers aren't they?!?
Well it isnt something which needs an answer pretty sharpish.
So makes sense to have it in the first round. Aside from anything else as soon as the British government can set crapita or whoever working on the job of automating the border the sooner we can start burning cash on the failed project.
Well it isnt something which needs an answer pretty sharpish.
exactly, potentially the most explosive issue of Brexit that could upset millions of lives (just like citiznes rights) hence why it was a condition
the exit bill on the other hand.... 😈
i prefer to say Brexshiteers screwed up - IIRC the Tory Gov campaigned for remain, remember the fuss about use of funds? - but then again I don't have party allegiances that blind me
Who called the referendum? Brexiteers or Cameron? Who was it who claimed it was an advisory referendum, who failed to actually set it up with a super-majority rule.
Now who is it that won't actually admit that there is no solution and would rather carry on with the crap.
Tories and Labour almost to an MP refuse to be straight with the electorate.
igm, there are IMO two solutions, one that relies on the NI population voting for reunification and the Republic accepting the North back, i am sure if the UK throws enough cash at the republic that bit could be sorted. not so sure that Loyalists are ready though.
The second "solution" the UK walks out of the GFA, and accepts everything that follows! How bad can it be......
Who called the referendum? Brexiteers or Cameron? Who was it who claimed it was an advisory referendum, who failed to actually set it up with a super-majority rule.Now who is it that won't actually admit that there is no solution and would rather carry on with the crap.
You seem somewhat confused here
Tories and Labour almost to an MP refuse to be straight with the electorate
But rescued it at the end
The second "solution" the UK walks out of the GFA, and accepts everything that follows! How bad can it be......
Just the latest to be added to the long list of things that must be sacrificed to [s]pacify the foaming-at-the-mouth right wing racist nutters[/s] fulfil the will of the people
Are you all really suggesting that the Irish border problem should overturn the democratic vote in the rest of UK? Tail wagging dog.
14 months after the vote, you guys are still in denial. Brexit can be a success and probably will be a success (politicians ability to cock it up always exists).
have you all forgotten how pi$$poor the EU is / was - not very democratic, not transparent, cant produce proper accounts, has created a decade of shrinkage or no growth in the Club Med, has pissed off nearly the whole population of NW Europe with obsession with freedom of movement (encouraged by Blair FFS).
The EU will probably collapse at some point. its not well run and probably never will be. We can survive outside and most likely thrive. For your own mental health, stop moaning and looking backwards.
the Irish should quit EU as well - even their own academics have suggested this and its not totally bonkers even if it is a bit counter intuitive at first.
No, we should be honest and just say **** the Irish, they are just thick paddies and we don't give two shits if they start blowing each other up. Cos that's what we really think. The people have spoken and their views must be respected, however bigoted and ignorant they might be.
hh45 - "Brexit can be a success and probably will be a success". 😆
Well you made me laugh anyway.
The EU wasn't perfect but it was probably the best thing to happen to the UK in a very long time.
You're going to miss it.
the Irish should quit EU as well - even their own academics have suggested this and its not totally bonkers even if it is a bit counter intuitive at first.
Class. 😆
stop moaning and looking backwards.
The Irony.
No, we should be honest and just say **** the Irish, they are just thick paddies and we don't give two shits if they start blowing each other up. Cos that's what we really think.
Speak for yourself
The people have spoken and their views must be respected, however bigoted and ignorant they might be.I
Quite, that is how democracies work. Imagine throwing the same accusation at the Nats (their false promises made Brexshiteers look like saints) and see how far you get
If we couldn't make the bleeding obvious (remain) accessible to the great British public, then we share as much of the blame as they do (if not more)
igm - Member
THM - If the Irish border issue cannot be solved (I doubt it can with the possible exception of reunification - still might not solve it) then why proceed with the rest of the negotiation?
As in most aspects of life, things are messy. The world rarely fits into nice tidy boxes. It's difficult. There are contradictions and compromises that have to be made. But if you step away at the first obstacle, you would not succeed at anything.
The Irish border issue in one of many important issues that defies and easy solution. So time to face the challenge. That is what makes us successful.
In fact if it cannot be solved, can Brexit actually be done?
Sounds like a fundamental that you need to sort up front - no?
The history of the EU - from design to decay - has been of messy compromise and doing things that defied economic logic. Hence its many flaws. Think Maastricht - even the Germans fudged that one and it's was so fundamentals that it beggars belief that it's was ignored. But the project trumps everything else. Never forget that.
Fundametals are ignored when it comes to Europe. Plus ca change
Choosing the right challenge is also a key part of success of course.
Well we failed that one, didn't we!!
Plenty of views being expressed that Ireland should leave or at least think very carefully based upon Brexit negotiation outcome. I have read a few peices, ex Irish ambassador etc.
@igm if the Irish border issue cannot be solved Brexit will definitely go ahead anyway. Zero doubt in my mind. I suggest you don't hold put any hopes on that derailing our exit. If there was a chance it would do so the EU would simply guaranty the border issue was not solved and keep is inside fhe EU whuch is their preference. We don't want a hard border but if the EU forces one then that's on their conscience. They are currently trying to play Irish people's lives against ECJ jurisdiction, disgraceful.
Switzerland is in Shengen but not the Customs Union (I think) - people can move freely but not goods.
@kimbers vast majority of farmers don't use cheap EU labour, only a few specific sectors. They will get the labour they need under a short term visa scheme with caveat that wages much be sufficient for employees to live (ie no in-work benefit subsidies from the tax payer)
So many good quotes in this piece
[url= http://commentcentral.co.uk/ditch-project-fear-for-project-prosperity/ ]ditch-project-fear-for-project-prosperity/[/url]
Interestingly traces the source of the "big lie" about millions of jobs being "dependent upon EU membership". Also slates FT columnist for ludicrus project Armageddon predictions.
It's all about the global opportunities
Jamba - I will hope for Brexit to be derailed until we leave. Then I will start on how we rejoin.
As I have said before, once you wake up to the fact that leaving the EU solves nothing, causes you personal pain, and causes the UK pain even if the EU bend over backwards to be nice to us, you will join me.
I'll be nice about it and not say I told you so.
The people have spoken and their views must be respected, however bigoted and ignorant they might be.I
Quite, that is how democracies work.
I have to disagree here (again).
It's pointless to say that governments should do whatever the public clamour for. The public does not know how to run a country - me included. The government is quite happy to ignore the wishes of the public when it wants to which is almost all the time. Referenda have to be well thought out - this one wasn't.
As I said before, it would be democratic to give my kids crisps for breakfast because they'd vote for it. But it would not be a good idea.
It's all about the global opportunities
Not really - it's all about distancing ourselves from our neighbours and ending dozens if not hundreds of close co-operations with people with whom we work very well. The EU is far more than simply a government.
It's pointless to say that governments should do whatever the public clamour for. The public does not know how to run a country - me included. The government is quite happy to ignore the wishes of the public when it wants to which is almost all the time. Referenda have to be well thought out - this one wasn't.
I have forwarded your concerns to Nicola Sturgeon - she says, "you are talking pish pal, you can fool most of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time. You cannae forget that pal"
I must say it's all going as expected
@molgrips and@igm take the time to read the Prosperity piece
@mols there is no need for working together to come to an end, 1) the EU should agree a sensible deal 2) you can work with people without being in a political union with them
@igm campaigning to rejoin is where its at, that's democracy
@igm if the Irish border issue cannot be solved Brexit will definitely go ahead anyway.
And any blood will be on your hands.
@igm campaigning to rejoin is where its at, that's democracy
So you agree that campaigning to scrap Art50 is a good idea, why waste the time and money holding another referendum in a few years.
@igm campaigning to rejoin is where its at, that's democracy
if we don't rejoin the EU, 3 million foreign criminals a week will cost the NHS a BILLION pounds a second.
Jamba - will you promise it's not another piece of ill thought out nonsense propaganda? If so I might consider reading it, but you have to overcome your poor track record for posting up rubbish.
If campaigning to rejoin is democracy so is campaign not to self harm in the first place. That's democracy fog you - git isn't it?
Edit - it's a UKIP type authoring that piece you recommend Jamba. Propaganda. Not very well written either. And even I can spot made up bits.
And any blood will be on your hands.
How odd, I would have thought any perpetrator would be guilty. Funny old world.
vast majority of farmers don't use cheap EU labour, only a few specific sectors.
Source?
Or Jambafact?
IME - that's not the case. Haveing been a farmer & farm manager I've found EU labout just about everywhere.
Forget farms, who's going to serve my skinny soya caramel macchiato? Apparently 70% of waiters and waitresses are migrants from the EU!
As for the farmers, well they've made their beds. Of course those subsidies will be honoured.
We really are in the doo-dah, aren't we? Anyone with an ounce of economic sense can see this.
On the contrary as always good to read what the oppo are saying so that you can understand where they are coming from. All Cogdon is doing is highlighting that pessimistic forecast re the labour market have so far proved to be wrong. Fair enough, that's true.
But then again remember r that even the project fear numbers were not that bad anyway despite the headlines. And that's the point, we WILL get thought this, once we get over the remonaing. It's shit but not terminally so.
I am probably one of the few who read the whole Scottidh Indepence comic of well over 600 pages. Originally for the reasons above, but about half way through it became clear that's real value was comic
You skim read that, didn't you, because that is not "all he is doing" in that piece at all.All Cogdon is doing is highlighting that pessimistic forecast re the labour market have so far proved to be wrong
Agree, in the whole, but ithere will be many examples of people finding it more than just "a bit shit".It's shit but not terminally so.
But that piece is talking about how we'll all be much better off, with no shitness. Read it all.
Try this bit on for size…
[b][i]"With the Brexit boost that can be achieved by ditching the protectionist prison of the EU and embracing global free trade, a dividend worth about £5,000 per year to families across the country accompanied by an 8 per cent fall in prices tells us that the cost of watering down/avoiding a clean Brexit would be calamitous."[/i][/b]
Apparently 70% of waiters and waitresses are migrants from the EU!
Wetherspoons suggestion for this is we should retain all the current rules for migration so he can continue to get the staff in.
I believe those rules are called "Freedom of movement", no?
[url= http://www.timcongdon4ukip.com/ ]Tim Congdon member of UKIP since 2007[/url]
just so we know why he's written the piece that Jamba wants us all to read.
I want my £5000 a year Brexit dividend, whoever he is.
How odd, I would have thought any perpetrator would be guilty. Funny old world.
Naive comment.
The Prison of protectionism? Ha, Ha. We will be screaming for any for of protection once the tories idea of free market comes to beat up our economy.
@mols there is no need for working together to come to an end, 1) the EU should agree a sensible deal 2) you can work with people without being in a political union with them
Not as closely though. You're mad if you think we won't be further away from our neighbours after Brexit. If only because freedom of movement that you want to end is a major factor in this.
So picking this up a day late... The chief brexiteer is still believing the propaganda and the closet tory still wishes we would all stop complaining and do what mummy may says. Meanwhile massive issues are being swept under the carpet. NI is spot on, the blood spilled will be in the hands of those that returned us to this situation and those who spill it. The people who create the political problem cannot absolve themselves of blame.
so far proved to be wrong
Brexit hasn't happened yet.
The predictions of what would happen following the vote and acting Art 50 have been pretty accurate; the pound falling and individuals/companies/institutions preparing for divorce.
The impact of those decisions will be a time coming and the main impact of Brexit won't be felt until it happens.
There is a positive impact on tourism at present because of the low pound. However, the need to pay for a passport will dissuade European tourists, especially school groups, when Brexit happens. Companies are still waiting to know what trading conditions will be before planning investments that will have major implications more than a few years forward. Exports are enjoying a currency related boom, I'm surprised they haven't risen more, but that's temporary. Households are still able to live on credit but any hint of an economic slow down and banks will strangle the consumer.
You are in the lull before the storm, but the storm is coming.
On the contrary as always good to read what the oppo are saying so that you can understand where they are coming from.
THM - I agree to a point. However with that piece, where he is coming from is a political conviction that the EU is bad and scary based on the delusion that the UK had handed its independence over (note: if we had we could not have decided to leave).
And I'm also more inclined to read and think about something if it contains something new. Unfortunately I first read the guts of that piece of fantasy over a year ago and it wasn't convincing then.
Jamba - you need to refresh your propaganda team. As with so many things about your lot, it's stuck in the past.
We shall see whether the EU protects Irelands interests which are very closely aligned to the UK's - from the Guardian
The paper emerged days after Barnier met Ireland’s foreign minister, Simon Coveney, in Brussels. Coveney told the EU negotiator that the UK’s decision to leave the EU had “[b]potentially an extraordinarily negative impact on Ireland and on the island of Ireland[/b]”.
Edukator the GLOBAL recession was to begin immediately upon a Brexit vote. The UK has RECORD levels of employment and significantly INCREASED exports in the last 12 months. That's real economic data @mikesmith not Project Armageddon bollix from "respected experts"
@igm I am not surprised you didn't read the piece, you don't want to know about any alternative views to your own
The EU has no way of fully protecting Ireland from the UK decision. I have no idea why you don't except the damage is your fault for joining the call for this folly, not the fault of the EU in not to being able to wave a magic wand and protect people from the damage caused by Brexit.“potentially an extraordinarily negative impact on Ireland and on the island of Ireland”.
The UK has RECORD levels of employment and significantly INCREASED exports in the last 12 months.
Which is nice, but the reality is we are all POORER thanks to Brexit and it be hasn't happened yet!
Just coz Cameron & Osborne over egged the pudding doesn't mean it's not still a sad mistake, driven by ignorance and xenophobia.
Science white pair released yesterday, gov want to stay in EU research funds but query is we will no longer be net recipients from the EU science budget and as with so many other things, we lose influence, aiming for equivalence with Switzerland who can still apply for grants but dont get a say in shaping science policy.
Brexit reducing Britain
Nonsesne @kelvin, the EU can agree a Free Trade Deal and a sensible border arrangement with the UK if it CHOOSES. However the EU is playing people against process just like Davies says. Ex the UK the EU has 440m people of which Ireland makes up 6m (roughly half the size of Greece), therein lies Ireland's problem. They are just a pasn in the EU's game. 80% of Ireland's (mostly perishable) exports which leave by road go via the UK, they need a constructive EU solution.
Naive comment
That's a bit harsh on Mrmo 😉
Of course when CMD made the same points (broadly) he was roundly laughed at but the ironies in this whole issues are endless
IGM - cogdon is a very vocal Brexshiteer. He is also a bright guy, so worth seeing what he is saying at least if nothing else to understand why he is wrong. While there is a fantasy overlay, the only hard bits in the piece related to labour market stats which are on the button.
Despite what ed pretends above, the impact on the economy has been muted so far and largely the effects felt by the decline in £. Nothing unusual in that at all. In fact the unusual aspect has been the resilience in the face of all the doommongers. Perhaps there are enough people getting on with life instead of remoaning
Which reminds me - I have to finish a Brexshit report for work today. Do I go safe or contraversial?!?
The World's top 10 Universities, 1 and 2 are Oxford and Cambridge, Imperial College in the mix too. The rest are in the US and Zurich creeps in at joint 10th but Switzerland isn't in the EU and of course voted to NEVER join.
Which reminds me - I have to finish a Brexshit report for work today. Do I go safe or contraversial?!?
Well if the audience are Remainers you have to play politics and just tell them what they want to hear, no ? Sooner or later business is going to have to stop moaning and get on with the job, if they don't the stock market is going to pan those it thinks are unprepared and who is going to buy shares in a company with a negative or pessimistic CEO, look what happened to Carphone Warehouse and WPP when they annouced profit warnings - you'll get the same or worse with a Remoaner.
well there is the straightforward versions and the real version which is highly complex. I will have done enough by 12:00 to determine which way to go! Enjoy the debate....