Forum menu
So, we've gone from a close working relationship with our nearest neighbours to bitter acrimony, for no reason at all.
GOOD WORK EVERYONE!
FFS.
Of course there is no "legal" necessity to pay anything… we didn't lose sovereignty and can do what we like… just kill all our current trading arrangements, leave all the lose ends hanging, and then go into discussions with EU and others asking for new trade arrangements in, er, good faith.
The Telegraph reports
well that normally sets BS alarmbells rining 😉
that aside why hasnt their been a gov white paper on the bill, again it was one of the 3 things that Davis agreed to settle b4 trade talks when he signed up
but the gov refuse to disclose anything about it, the Foreign Secretary even saying the EU could 'Go Whistle'
its almost as if the gov are trying to stage manage the whole thing for the swivel eyed brexies
On the most intractable issue, the so-called divorce bill, three hours of intense discussion on Tuesday was accompanied by 23 slides and 11 pages of dense text, a source said, pointing out that the EU has provided just 4 pages to outline its position.
whats really funny is that Tory supporters are saying that 4 pages isnt enough information when 'Brexit means Brexit' is all the Maybot has been able to output for the last year
proof?4 vague pages of frankly nonsense
it could easily be 23 slides & 11 pages of waffle from our gov and 4 pages of concise sums from the EU
as we havent seen these legendary slides & a4 sheets we will just have to believe what the Murdoch press tells us eh?
It's all going swimmingly.
Mol, step away from the EU narrative before you get brainwashed. Like all bullies hist in hem getting shirty because we are standing up to them. Good for the negotiators.
Kimbers it was in the Guardian too!!
@thm what?
I'm commenting on the fact that we have made adversaries out of allies for no reason.
Kimbers it was in the Guardian too!!
damn the MSM !
Mol, you know thm's advice, same as the nuclear warning get under the table hide and don't say anything....
I'm commenting on the fact that we have made adversaries out of allies for no reason.
of course there was a reason - the EU is not just a trading arrangement.
We are in negotiations mol. Both sides have starting positions that don't work. They will clash as they seek compromise. In the meantime, they will manage the narrative to drive public opinion.
To date, the EU has been more successful at this especially over here, where people remain tied to petty party allegiances that prevent rational analysis. They are winning the media war.
What we saw yesterday was simply part of that process. The EU present an unrealistic demand and the UK rebuffs it. That is how negotiations work. The media will then spin their sides of the story. No change there.
There will be times when the talks get stressed. Why? Because the EU must deliver a situation for the UK that is worse than the status quo. In contrast, the UK has to achieve the opposite. So it will be tense. The extent to which either side alienates each other depends on how sensible the behind the scenes negotiators are and what happens at the key talks (also behind the scenes) between Macron, May and Merkel, the three Muskateers who actually matter (at least for now)
of course there was a reason - the EU is not just a trading arrangement.
I know and we are chucking out those benefits too
sounds like the EHIC is also a sticking point 🙁
To date, the EU has been more successful at this especially over here, where people remain tied to petty party allegiances that prevent rational analysis. They are winning the media war.
Funny man.
Yes, THM, you have neatly described the situation, and how difficult it is.
The EU are saying that the UK are being incompetent and unrealistic. Are you suggesting I shouldn't believe this, and that they do in fact know what they are doing?
I certainly don't have any party allegiances and the first one that stands up and says that the whole stupid brexit disaster is a catastrophe that must be stopped will have my undying gratitude pretty much irrespective of other policies.
That the EU are bully boys is the "new" lie being perpetuated by Brexiteers - even those that don't claim to be. They have a stance. They've been pretty open about it.
It's a simple step on from the paradoxical pre-referendum stance of thinking we're amazing and that the world will beat a path to our door while simultaneously whinging about being bullied for 40 years by the rest of Europe.
Don't worry, "someone else" will solve all that for them.
non-mail related link about that russian brexit-bot
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/media/twitter-account-suspected-of-being-part-of-russian-disinformation-campaign/news-story/ad128e22fd4c3bf6c38d18526d68de42
Are you suggesting I shouldn't believe this, and that they do in fact know what they are doing
No I am suggesting that you put the noise into context. But if you step away from the media and read what is published by the government in terms of the briefings etc, you quickly realise that a hell of a lot more is going on than would be suggested by the very shallow 24 hour news coverage. The papers merely regurgitate press releases and out their pre-determined spin on it. Most journos have neither the time nor the inclination to do decent analysis and research any more. Constant noise "trumps" thoughtful perspective and analysis.
Not true, DD, it is merely demonstrating an understand of how the EU (doesn't) negotiate. They bully first, ask Varoufakis, the Italians and the Portuguese. The track record is very clear.
I think thm has it right here. For background, here is the view of someone with a lot of experience of how the EU negotiate:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/03/the-six-brexit-traps-that-will-defeat-theresa-may
with a little more info about the big-mouthed hypocrite Verhofstadt:
https://www.thepressproject.gr/details_en.php?aid=62406
Owen Jones is very funny trying to put a Labour spin on events today in TG. Spots the dilemmas fair enough, but then pretends that Labour has a genuine alternative. Is he auditioning for HIGNFY? Or is TG now a satirical magazine?
Owen Jones is all over the place on this… acknowledging that any form of Brexit is worse than staying in the EU, yet insisting there must be no democratic means to stay in the EU. His views seem to shift whenever his party changes its approach to how we Leave, and, even when the party positions can't be seperated with a fag paper, insisting that his party's position is more realistic than that of the other party.
I think thm has it right here. For background, here is the view of someone with a lot of experience of how the EU negotiate:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/03/the-six-brexit-traps-that-will-defeat-theresa-may
[b]The Penelope ruse[/b]
Delaying tactics are always used by the side that considers the ticking clock its ally
Tick, tock…
[s]Mol[/s] THM, step away from the [s]EU narrative[/s] right wing British media narrative before you get brainwashed.
one of your better contributions Ed?
Mike and IGM - had a quick look for link over lunch but couldn't find immediately. This briefing paper does have a short summary of the HoL conclusion on P18 and is informative on other stuff as well.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41106507
So at what point do the EU turn around and say "you haven't got a clue what you want or how to implement it, you're wasting everyone's time, we're going to put it to all the member states that Article 50 is annulled and you just bloody stay until such time as you've worked out what you want and how you're going to get it"
??
We could veto that.
Round 3 is over.
[i]"No decisive progress."[/i]
Tick, tock…
Is it wrong that when I look at David Davis's smug, self-satisfied complacent face, and the barely interested way he's addressing this whole process, I want to Tazer him?
according to Voufrakis (stws approved brexpert) the negotiations are doomed anyway
May shot herself in the foot by triggering A50 to soon (not to mention her election u-turn disaster) & then further handicapped us by insisting that any transition ends B4 the next election (rather than whens best for the country)
By all accounts that Davis/Barnier press conference went well....
Nick Gutteridge @nick_gutteridge
Press room here genuinely stunned by that - nobody expected that level of antagonism between the pair. Is a British walkout now inevitable?
1:02 PM - Aug 31, 2017
with a little more info about the big-mouthed hypocrite Verhofstadt:
sums up why we need to leave...
I thought of posting a vid of Barnier's briefing, THM, but got distracted by a vid of a London jogger pushing some poor woman over and though of something more obvious to post.
Watching the main French and German channels this morning it appears Brexit is of no further interest on this side of the channel.
sums up why we [s]need to leave...[/s] should have the testicular fortitude to stay in and set things right, rather than throwing a hissy fit and running off like cowards, unwilling to try & make the world (and the EU) a better place ....
Brexit is of no further interest on this side of the channel.
No really.
Brexit is of no further interest on this side of the channel.
no one wants to watch a once close friend's descent into ignominy
Once again Barnier talks about the UK's [b]moral obligations[/b] re the Brexit Bill. He's insane. No one is ever going to pay any material sum on that basis.
So Blair meets Junker today, two peas in a pod.
[img] 
[/img]
Once again Barnier talks about the UK's moral obligations re the Brexit Bill.
indeed morality is for losers
the UKs rep as an honorable trading nation is being flushed away by brexit, just when we are going to need it the most
Why is Blair checking Junker's (bad) breath?
To work out how many bottles of spirits he's drunk.
Is the lack of brexit coverage (internet says otherwise, but let's not worry about details) due to extensive coverage of Philippe and Penicaud's labour reforms?
The only British news on my SFR news feed is Lady Di, really.
Edit: stop press! Brexit is on Tegesschau "bourse". A few seconds to say nothing has happened and stocks are moving up slightly.
Ha ha ha haaaaaa!
Has Davis really said that the EU negotiating team need to be more imaginative?!
What a tosser!
It would have been nice if Barnier had said "Ok, let's all imagine a world in which you hadn't tried to satisfy a bunch of swivel-eyed loons and racists and ended up kicking us in the balls and then came back cap in hand......everyone there?.......well that's not what happened and you haven't got any cards to play, but you started this, so at least have the grace to set out your position, if you've got one".
I can't help but feel the Tories are just going to try to string this out as long as possible in the hope that Italy and/or others vote in their own insular racists and thus make Brexit a bit passé.
What a fiasco.
EU team doing exactly what they always said they would do.
If Davis wants that to change he needs to produce some leverage.
Where is it DD?
Oh.
How can any moderate Brexit voter (and I hope they are the majority) be anything but furious about the government's implementation of their decision?
There were about 50 Brexit supporters and THM on the early pages of this thread. Only the most fervent now post, perhaps one of the moderate Brexiters would let us know how they feel about how the implementation is going.
....and THM??
I think most - certainly enough to swing the result - weren't really "Brexiteers" at all, they just got caught in the moment, or swayed by the bogus "independence" headlines, or Johnson's debate speech, or the NHS thing.
They're just voters really, who got duped.
I really try and avoid the perjoratives, Brex**iteers (tho I've done it a few times in anger), they're duped voters really.
Do you put Scottish Natts in the same basket? They were conned by similar nonsense, indeed possibly worse. Fortunately for the people of Scotland their vote went the other way.
I don't know enough about Scotland to have a reasonably informed opinion.
My hunch tho is that vote will change, I expect a united Ireland and independent Scotland in due course. Why would they want to be shackled to the sinking HMS Farage.
teamhurtmore - Member
....and THM??
THM - do you mind if I s**** at that? 😉
perhaps one of the moderate Brexiters would let us know how they feel about how the implementation is going.
It's going fine - as others have said (lnks above) negotiating with the EU is pretty much a non-starter if we play their game, there have been several civil service types as well that have phoned in to LBC and said pretty much the same thing.
The original threat to become more of a tax haven if we don't get a deal was the right direction - after all we have been shown how successful that route is by Junckers himself - so it is a bit rich of him to complain about it.
Staying in and negotiating with the EU is another non-starter, look at how well that didn't go for Cameron.
Nearly all the remoaners seems to be concerned about short term issues and whether it hits them in the pocket, whereas nearly all the brexiter public that I hear on LBC have a longer view and consider the point that most of the UK does not want to be part of a federal Europe and of their political vision - as 'ever closer political union' implies.
^^ I suspect not a moderate Brexiteer.
Or let me rephrase that, very many people who voted Leave were not "Brexiteers".
This vote was very close, it wasn't decided by the hardcore it was decided by the "just having a punt" or "finger to Cameron" vote. And the abstainers.
Don't forget that many remainers - myself Included - recognise the many flaws at the heart of the Euro project and were only interested in the cherry picking approach that has always characterised our semi-independent relationship with nos amis. The attraction for me is the single market and the four freedoms that go with it.
This has made us PITAs fo then for a long time, partially offset by the scale of our contribution and the importance our market for their exports and our financial expertise. We are at best peripheral and distant partners.
The gap between our traditional antipathy towards the EU and the stance of many leavers is not that great - look at Corbyn and May.
For sure, there's a spectrum. Anyone with more than a peanut for a brain sees the EU has flaws. & the EU bears some responsibility for what's happened too.
Most any remain leaner, or the very committed, will say that. Corbyn himself said "70% in" I think.
It does seem to me though the fundamentalists are all on the leave side.
@matt that was the fundamental problem with the Remain campaign. The EU is deeply flawed and everyone knows it. We've tried and failed repeatedly to "fix" it but it just gets worse and worse heading in totally the wrong direction. The EU's responce to the disasterous departure for them of the EU is more Europe, closer union.
We joined (and where heavily sold) the Common Market. Not this Union crap.
I think there many marginal Remain voters who where intimidated by Project Fear, had they had the real facts the result may well have been more conclusive
It has to move closer otherwise it's totally screwed - including the Germans playing their part.
We HAD a BRILLIANT deal where we avoided the crap you referred to but still got better access to the single market than we will get now and better bargaining power to deliver trade deals with RoW
That's the folly of the Brexshit case - as flawed as the folly of the € itself. That's the irony.
teamhurtmore - Member
Don't forget that many remainers - myself Included - recognise the many flaws at the heart of the Euro project and were only interested in the cherry picking approach that has always characterised our semi-independent relationship with nos amis. The attraction for me is the single market and the four freedoms that go with it.This has made us PITAs fo then for a long time, partially offset by the scale of our contribution and the importance our market for their exports and our financial expertise. We are at best peripheral and distant partners.
The gap between our traditional antipathy towards the EU and the stance of many leavers is not that great - look at Corbyn and May.
Almost a plus 1 there.
I agreed with everything until the last paragraph. I like the EU.
Four freedoms and single market - good. The original intent to tie France and Germany's economies together to prevent them starting round whatever of the every 30 years (Anglo-)Franco-German war - excellent. Concept of the Euro - good, but atrocious execution (and if you can't execute it don't do it).
It was generally good, but opting out of the bad bits made it better.
The Brexies have yet to put forward any real vision of the future other than moaning about what they don't like and some sort of return to empire* - I'll be mightily impressed if it comes anywhere close to what they're throwing away.
*Is it just me or was the British empire based on slavery and the products of slavery such as cotton, sugar etc (particularly in the Americas), drug running (particularly China) and a protection racket (East India Company for example)?
You're one of the fervent Brexiters who've never stopped expressing your enthusiasm, Turnerguy. It's the 45 or so who've been quiet for five months or so. What did happen to Hora BTW?
Sick of abuse?
Yep I had TurnerGuy down as a zealot
The EU is deeply flawed and everyone knows it.
No that's your extrapolation.
It has flaws of course it does. Is there a human organisation that doesn't?
Locked into Farage's Britain vs EU membership, with our kids' rights to live work and study in the world's largest free trade area, and one of the most varied and liberal regions on Earth?
Negotiating trade deals solo or alongside the combined purchasing power 27 other countries.
It's a no-brainer.
No jambas is correct - deeply flawed in design and execution. Still a great market though - hence we HAD the best deal possible.
No jambas is cirrect
Now that I can agree with 😉
Get editing
I think most remainers understand the concept of trade-offs - in that yes, something as big as the EU is never going to have everything that an individual wants for himself, but for the greater part it actually works a lot better - so for me, yes, there's stuff that doesn't make me happy about eh EU but I'm willing to trade off that for that which I see benefits. I also see that helping "poorer neighbours" is eventually a benefit to everyone.
We have pretty much a bi-partisan FPTP electoral system in the UK where nearly every vote is a trade off, even if patronising ignoramuses and lying idiots attempt to tell you that a vote for a candidate from a party is a vote [i]for[/i] [b]all[/b] that party's policies. Brexiteers for the most part would like to think that they don't do compromise - it is of course that many of them don't understand the subtleties of compromise.
As soon as enough Brexiteers realise that life in the EU is a trade-off where we benefit on the whole, that sometimes you have to take a bit of rough for more of the smooth, and that they can't have their cake and eat it, then Brexit will crash and burn. It's only a matter of time really. Even if we have to go through "exiting" for a while.
I think the design wasn't far off.
Even the execution wasn't bad.
There are just a couple of things that need sorting (like not being in the euro - oh we had that already)
Still a great market though - hence we HAD the best deal possible.
DD - the problem is Brexit may we'll crash and burn 18 months after we leave.
It wouldn't surprise me if Jamba is campaigning to join the EU in 5-10 years time.
What do you say Jamba?
There were about 50 Brexit supporters and THM on the early pages of this thread. Only the most fervent now post
bullied, apparently. 🙄
What form of EU will exist in 10 years time?
Yes, the thing "we" have voted to Leave is flawed.
What are we replacing it with though?
How is it better?
No contradictiary unicorns please…
Whatever form the EU takes in the future… we'll have far less influence in that process, and I'd be very surprised if it didn't still effect us greatly.
That David Davis does come across as a bit of a bully.
It has flaws of course it does. Is there a human organisation that doesn't?Locked into Farage's Britain vs EU membership, with our kids' rights to live work and study in the world's largest free trade area, and one of the most varied and liberal regions on Earth?
Negotiating trade deals solo or alongside the combined purchasing power 27 other countries.
It's a no-brainer.
That's a good summary.
I've not seen anything on the other side of the fence that is as positive as that. And that's the trouble - it's all about sticking two fingers up to something rather than working together, and that in itself deeply flawed.
But then we're an island with the respective attitude.
@Kimbers voting on the 2015-2020 EU budget is a commitment to total spending and thus our share [b]on the basis we remain an EU member[/b]. A50 cuts off all payments after 2 years. Now I have little doubt the clause was written (was only thought of for the Lisbon Treaty signed by Blair) with the scenario that a net recipient left but if the EU wanted to have nations bound till the end of a budget period they could have said so. They did not.
The EU know its a try on that's why they don't refer to a specifc Directive or EU document to show our legal liability.
The payment.
It's all Brexiteers bloody go on about. Because doing a big two fingered salute to our neighbours and saying "We're not paying, na-na-ne-na-naa" makes them feel better about [i]something[/i].
Something will be paid. Probably more than the UK wants to. Less than the EU wants from us. Hey ho. There's negotiations for you.
I suppose it helps to delay thinking about the really
complicated stuff that needs sorting out. Someone else will do all that for them.
You'll be arguing to rejoin in five years Jamba, won't you.
@matt yes guilty of a bit of extrapolation / artistc licence. However, the flaws are material - corruption and waste, security failings (Shengen), foreign policy (Ukraine) and most importantly the catastrophe that is the euro.
@igm I'd be willing to bet I will not ! I was an EU fan 15-20 years ago, it's gone badly off the rails and is accelerating downwards. I would be in favour of a NAFTA style free trade zone, with no freedom of movement and no budget, no parliament just civil servants seconded by member nations.
There was supposed to be a worldwide recession by now due to a Leave vote. Our Economy is doing well, exports up, tourism up, wages rising, unemployment falling.
Edukator the majority of Leavers can't be bothered with the tone of this thread and the abuse they receive. It's a great shame ernie_lynch no longer adds his contributions as he clearly domes from a different political standpoint than do I for example.
Edukator the majority of Leavers can't be bothered with the tone of this thread and the abuse they receive.
Brilliant.
Abuse?
Since when did astonishment at incompetence and ignorance become reclassified as abuse?
EU are asking for meaningful negotiation, the reply from the UK is that the EU are not being 'imaginative'.
Unless the brakes are put on this, it's only going to go one way.
Hint; it won't be in our favour with the rest of the world watching and considering whether they want to do business with us.
There was supposed to be a worldwide recession by now due to a Leave vote.
Nope.
Our Economy is doing well,
No it's slowing noticeably now (but only partly to do with Brexshit)
wages rising
Significant pressure in real terms thanks in part to higher inflation - much more to do with Brexshit due to weaker £
EU are asking for meaningful negotiation, the reply from the UK is that the EU are not being 'imaginative'.
No, really 😯
Thomas Cook are currently offering 1 euro 6 cents to the pound. 😳