[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

kimbers well the election car crash was dreamt up by a few bods who are now long gone.

You can actually watch a video of Captain Clueless admitting he was the genius behind it and he still thinks it was a good idea 😯

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-davis-apologise-theresa-may-election-andrew-marr-a7806901.html

Yup downloaded the gov document 2nd page is on about free & frictionless .....

Empty soundbites for the empty-headed.
If only they'd be honest with us.

Are we sure that they got rid of the slogan writers from their election landslide?

Just read this, all very sensible

It isn't really though.

Reading that report, it seems to have huge gaping holes in it. And I know nothing about customs.

Asked how a seamless border between Ireland and Northern Ireland will work, a government minister this morning said that they are looking at 'a high tech IT solution'

Brilliant!

So, as always, we can look forward to a massively complex new government IT system covering all vehicles, produce, people and goods that have to cross the border being in place, fully functioning, on time, and for a modest budget, within the next 18 months?

This new non NI border is going to be amazing, it's basically going to be a completely unmonitored entry point between the EU/UK !

Why are they bullshitting again? The only way you could conceivably do that is to enforce a border round the whole of Ireland.

It's one or the other, yet still the brexies persist with their fantasies

So, as always, we can look forward to a massively complex new government IT

Like the one we are developing that's already been flagged as being behind schedule & over budget, BEFORE it was decided to re-task it as the magical answer to brexishambles...?

Ahhhhh I wasn't aware that Davis had enlisted the help of the Fae Folk

If he'd just said this up front !

http://newsthump.com/2017/08/16/uk-brexit-paper-proposes-magic-irish-border-staffed-by-fairies/

binners - Member

Asked how a seamless border between Ireland and Northern Ireland will work, a government minister this morning said that they are looking at 'a high tech IT solution'

High tec IT solution that's immune to low tech like hammers I assume.

All those at the back not keep quiet, it's all been thought of and you are just not ready for the info yet.
We also won't need to worry as all the rest of the EU will collapse into the sea shortly under the weight of all it's bureaucracy and debt which will mean Britannia will have more waves to rule.

If the resultant tsunami doesn't seeep the country clean first.

http://newsthump.com/2017/08/16/uk-brexit-paper-proposes-magic-irish-border-staffed-by-fairies/

Sounds more realistic than what has been proposed.

Theresa Villiers - former Northern Ireland secretary and hardline Brexiteer has just been interviewed on Five Live about how exactly this is going to work

Her answer - and I'm paraphrasing slightly here - was 'It'll all be fine. Trust us. We'll use, like, really really clever new whizzy IT systems and stuff. Don't you worry your pretty little heads over it"

So there you go. All sorted!

[quote=binners ]Asked how a seamless border between Ireland and Northern Ireland will work, a government minister this morning said that they are looking at 'a high tech IT solution'

I suspect the only thing Brexiteers have less of a clue about than how to solve the problems of Brexit is IT systems. I can only assume they did just copy the idea from Newsthump but replaced "fairies" with "IT system", because it's about that level of logical thinking.

When this has just been discussed on 5 Live, EU experts asked for comment on the UK's position yesterday and today keep using one word repeatedly....

'Fantasy'

One comment said 'having your cake, eating it, then telling the EU to get you some more cake

You'd hope that as the cliff edge drifts ever closer that a dose of reality might intrude into the ludicrous la la land of Fox, Davis et al

Ah yes,Britannia waiting for the EU to waive the rules for her..

I suspect the only thing Brexiteers have less of a clue about than how to solve the problems of Brexit is IT systems.

He knows enough - they should just use Macs. Sorted.

More great economic news today. Rather than the 500,000 ("at least") job losses predicted by Project Fear the UK has created 157,000 since referedndum and unemployment is down yet again to just 4.4%. Exports have grown 11.4% since June 2016.

#DespiteBrexit

#NotLeftYet

Yes, not left yet Jam. Did you think the 500,000 would happen all at once?

I hope you're right and I'm wrong.

Why are they bullshitting again? The only way you could conceivably do that is to enforce a border round the whole of Ireland.

DUP haven't been told yet, but the Tories are going for a united Ireland, solves the border issue and any fallout is someone else's problem.

ahh some whataboutery now that brexit is becoming a technical discussion to which brexies have no actual advice to offer....

So Euratom, Chlorinated Chicken and now hard IT borders. We are still in the two 2mm tip of that Iceberg I was talking about.

More great economic news today.

More great economic news today. Rather than the 500,000 ("at least") job losses predicted by Project Fear the UK has created 157,000 since referedndum and unemployment is down yet again to just 4.4%. Exports have grown 11.4% since June 2016.
#DespiteBrexit

& delibrately missing one key piece of information.

Because we are cheap & are currently perceived as being good value.

F knows what will happen when Brexit (if) actually happens.

But hey, keep drinking the kool aid & keep on telling only the side of the story that fits your fantasy...

The more this shambles rolls on, the more I'm starting to give some credibility to the idea that they are deliberately trying to engineer a cliff edge, and a catastrophic exit from the EU. I do actually think that this lot believe all the Ayn Rand bollocks about creative chaos, and the principle of [url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/04/disaster-capitalism-tory-right-brexit-roll-back-state ]Disaster Capitalism[/url]

I really think these lunatics are truly unhinged enough to deliberately instigate an absolute economic meltdown (insulated as them and their mates are from the real world effects) so they can then hold up their hands and say 'but we have absolutely no alternative but to privatise the NHS/rip up workers rights/totally dismantle the welfare state/give away absolutely every state asset to their mates/insert other Tory wet dream of choice.

I mean, seriously..... its surely getting to the point that even these people can't be so unbelievably, mind-blowingly stupid, right? They have to be doing this on purpose?

They are that stupid but not in that way

They know leaving the EU is the only way to get sweatshop britain - their aim. They simply don't care about the chaos its going to cause. I think its beginning to dawn on a few hence this wishlist from fantasy land which is just laughable.

When will there be an outbreak of sense in our body politic? 500+ mps were remainers when asked pre referendum. they can't all be as dim as Davie and co and must see the damage being done

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/08/uk-faces-2bn-fine-over-chinese-imports-scam-say-eu-anti-fraud-investigators

So the UK wants a relaxation of third party customs when outside the EU but can't follow the rules when inside the custom union.

Once you follow what actually happens, rather than what "sources say", everything is following through from the plan laid out in the Lancaster House speech. All perfectly sensible stuff.

everything is following through from the plan laid out in the Lancaster House speech. All perfectly sensible stuff.

including the election landslide?

the customs union papers are far from sensible so far, just wishful thinking !

It wasnt 'sources' that said scheduling would be the row of the summer (davis 3weeks b4 humbly agreeing EU schedule without a whimper)

Or Johnson agreeing the EU could go whistle days before the gov released a statement saying theyd pay a divorce bill

or Liam Fox saying on Marr last December that a transition deal couldnt be similar to EU membership (until he released his joint statement with hammond last week)

its all going swimmingly!

Just the usual lies to the public while they do something different the Brexiter MO !

its all going swimmingly!

Indeed, so rare I agree with you.

They know leaving the EU is the only way to get sweatshop britain - their aim.

and yet Corbyn also wants to leave the EU completely - and has implied that the continual supply of cheap labour from the EU has negatively affected workers conditions in the UK.

indeed, so rare I agree with you.

I knew Id win you round eventually!

When will there be an outbreak of sense in our body politic? 500+ mps were remainers when asked pre referendum. they can't all be as dim as Davie and co and must see the damage being done

I'm living in hope that it's just a case of giving the clowns enough rope

How can Southern Ireland collect the EU tariffs on goods entering the union without having a border with Northern Ireland?

They can't. It's all completely ridiculous pie in the sky nonsense.

Expect more of it today regarding Freedom of Movement

How can Southern Ireland collect the EU tariffs on goods entering the union without having a border with Northern Ireland?

Leprechauns surely - or is that stereotyping?

Leprechauns are ideal post-brexit frontier control staff being the son of an "evil spirit".

Not sure the Presbyterian church would allow them the jobs though.

wilburt - Member
How can Southern Ireland collect the EU tariffs on goods entering the union without having a border with Northern Ireland

The UKs Ireland customs proposal seems to fall apart on this, unless you put a hard border between NI & rUK how can u know what or who is entering/leaving the UK if there no border between NI & Eire?

The are to be no border posts, no cameras? no customs checks, just 'technology'

Not a single Brexitee has a response to this.

mefty - Member
Once you follow what actually happens, rather than what "sources say", everything is following through from the plan laid out in the Lancaster House speech. All perfectly sensible stuff.

POSTED 11 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST

Indeed, and which requires sensible interpretation....

The Irish border is interesting given that it is a problem without an obvious solution*, other than a sensible application of technology which could have wider benefits - hey, a win, win? More potentially sensible stuff. It's good this isn't it?

* why do we think the EU are insisting on placing this ahead of other issues in the scheduling, because they want to avoid/delay negotiating as long as possible. Read Varoufakis.....

You cannot have even some kind of magic mostly-trust-based border between two major European trading nations/blocs without an element of checks and enforcement at every crossing. That means at least the infrastructure of a hard border even if you're just waving through all but the occasional lorryload.

Either the UK has to suck up freedom of movement in return for tariff-free trade or have a proper border everywhere.

The economic and social downsides for the ROI and NI are scarcely more than the rest of us will experience, the only difference is that if you look at the border there you can actually physically see what is being lost when we cut ourselves off from our closest trading partners.

a sensible application of technology which could have wider benefits - hey, a win, win? More potentially sensible stuff. It's good this isn't it?

Any ideas what this might entail ?

Just saying [b]technology[/b] doesn't count as a response !

The technology to have this kind of border control, on this scale doesn't actually exist yet, but given the government's previously superb record on delivering groundbreaking, innovative large-scale IT schemes, on time and on budget, I can't see why this all won't be in place in a year or so

Just saying technology doesn't count as a response !

There was an interesting piece on Newsnight several months ago - I thought at the time, wow that's smart and could have much wider use. And much, much better than sitting around moaning too - a practical solution to what appears to be an intractable problem. Progress in the wider sense of the word.

It's good this - we get to see smart people moving forward, bring solutions rather than those who dig their heels in and merely point out problems. Just the kind of people I like to employ (the former tbc!)

You can't really criticise Binners for not jumping in and designing a massive IT system, can you? Not really fair.

Or pointing out the[url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/18/nhs-records-system-10bn ] fantastic track record of government IT schemes[/url]

Hows the [url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/sep/06/digital-universal-credit-system-plagued-by-errors-says-mp ]Universal Credit IT System[/url] looking at the moment?

Still... I'm sure this one will be completely different Hurty

THM what youre say is what the politicians are saying. Its just words nothing specific. The general proposal as good as I can see is to allow small local traders free access and large traders to pre book items online.

That clearly wont work because a) you'll still need to check stuff occasionally. b) other non EU countries would want the same freedoms. c) its wide open to abuse.

Dont forget this is an EU border so has to satisfy EU standards. We cant say what it does and doesnt check.

At the moment Davis reminds me of a few chancer managers I've worked with over the years. Their general approach is to keep saying positive stuff and hope for the best. Thats ok when the stakes are limited but not in these circumstances.

The EU wants this border and citizens rights considered first because its putting people first whilst the UK is focusing almost entirely(without much success) on the interests of corporations.

Technology means technology
red, white & blue technology
strong & stable technology

maybe it means robots

we could have a robo-border!

youd have to also track everything that comes in eire, which is going to place a big burden on Ireland, who wont be happy

maybe the plan is to stretch the transition out for 10 years or so until the demographics have shifted enough that eire can be united and the UK can ditch the NI problem entirely!

There was an interesting piece on Newsnight several months ago

[img] [/img]

I'm confident our leaders can deliver... The governments official head of compooters and internets had this to say:

[img] [/img]

[quote=teamhurtmore ]The Irish border is interesting given that it is a problem without an obvious solution*, other than a sensible application of [s]technology[/s] fairies which could have wider benefits

You might as well write that until you can provide us with more details - it's about that level in your head I presume (hint: some of us here work in technology/IT, and we're probably the most sceptical)

* why do we think the EU are insisting on placing this ahead of other issues in the scheduling

Because it's the most difficult and most important problem.

I can see two very simple solutions:
1. We don't leave the EU - so no border needed.
or
2. We pull out of NI - so no border needed.

Or we have an honesty box on the border.

we get to see smart people moving forward, bring solutions

I am sure crapita will knock out a proof of concept in a couple of weeks.

The only things capita are capable of knocking out in that time scale are large invoices. 😆

But what about the 70 million turks camped on the border waiting to rush across to claim their free houses?
Of course the EU might build a big **** off wall to keep us out.
It's all very well The Zombie Maygot saying what she wants but ultimately it's up to the Mainlanders what they want to give us.
Personally I think the EU army should invade to save us EU citizens in peril.

The only things capita are capable of knocking out in that time scale are large invoices.

You can just imagine the conversations that have gone on between David Davis, Liam Fox and the [s]Snake Oil Salesmen[/s] IT consultants about their [s]magic beans[/s] Border Enforcement 9000 Megabot

A more cross party approach could have all this cleared up in no time....

[img] :large[/img]

In fairness, that was a generalised comment, not a proposed solution to a tricky problem.

Do you think he realises that smart factories mean fewer workers?

Per factory that is.

Not saying that's right or wrong of course.

Generally, using fewer workers per factory means more factories are possible, making more stuff, and growing the economy.

We definitely need more stuff. If we have more stuff, and magic borders, I'm voting for that

More seriously, on your comment THM on why start with the Irish border - I'd assume one would struggle to have sensible trade talks without defining first where you are trading from and to, and defining how open that border is is part of that surely.
How do you do talks about UK-EU trade when everyone is wondering what happens if you can just bypass customs by shipping via Ireland?

Moly - that is true to a fair degree (I think generally true is about right), but is a little to the right of Corbyn's normal position.

http://news.sky.com/story/next-phase-of-brexit-talks-likely-delayed-to-december-sky-sources-10991514

Looks very much like the Germans are pushing for a delay in Brexit talks and predictably (for me) a much bigger direct role. With their elections in September they will not form a Government till a month later - so nothing much of substance can be agreed. Headline quotes from politicians there about needing to avoid WTO - trust in the Commission to deliver is fading. Schwable's ultra pro EU stance and campaign has faded from being tied with Merkel to now dropping back substantially as she reinforces a move "rightwards"

The EU Commission is about self preservation. The Germans are much more pragmatic. WTO on cars could see a 24% swing in pricing German vs Japanese cars if (when) we agree tariff free deal with Japan focusing on Hybrids ? [b]Germany is looking to bypass EU stubborness IMO[/b]

Another great example of ridiculous tariffs emerged as imports to the EU of tinned peaches are taxed at 75% to protect Italian growers. We don't care as we don't grow them, we can agree much lower tariffs outside the EU, support developing nations for example.

We definitely need more stuff.

We do, because our economic and political model depends on it.

But we don't, because it's ****ing the world.

Sorting that dilemma out will be far more difficult than Brexit.

So we are going to undermine the 94bn UK car production industry with tariff free imports from Japan?

I find it funny that the disaster of partition has caused such a problem nearly 100 years on

Generally, using fewer workers per factory means more factories are possible, making more stuff, and growing the economy.

Never mind that! Whats the Irish Sea going to look like once it becomes the main route for smuggling swag and booty over the border into the EU?

AAAAARRRRRRRR

[img] ?region=0%2C0%2C1024%2C320[/img]

On the 'technology' angle, my mate's wife is director of an IT company that does a lot of this type of government work - if there even was the remotest chance of a clearly-defined requirement, manageable technological risk, a reasonable budget, a workable contract and sufficiently skilled workforce to deliver this, it's still a massive ask to have this by 2020. Some IT companies are downsizing their UK operations in the face of dwindling work.

dovebiker - Member
On the 'technology' angle, my mate's wife is director of an IT company that does a lot of this type of government work - if there even was the remotest chance of a clearly-defined requirement, manageable technological risk, a reasonable budget, a workable contract and sufficiently skilled workforce to deliver this, it's still a massive ask to have this by 2020. Some IT companies are downsizing their UK operations in the face of dwindling work.

Indeed.

I'll take it further- I [i]design[/i] these services for customers where digital manifests are presented from moving objects (vehicles) as they cross boundaries, and the lead time for even smaller-scale deployments is considerable.

We build in, with the customers understanding, long lead times for testing. Radio is just like that. Think of the telepeage systems in France- the vehicles have to be almost stationary and very close to sensors for the system to work, unless ANPR is used, and there's no cross-Europe system for that.

2020 would be well beyond ambitious. And then there's the question of: who pays? In the absence of Europe-wide ANPR, every vehicle crossing in and out would need a declaration device where the manifest is transferred over radio to a receiver. One of these in every vehicle? Costly.

And then there's the logistics of the backhaul network deployment. Coincidentally, I've been deploying a network recently that straddles NI and Eire, and the border area alone is very hard to cover.

Irish border will look like this:
[img] [/img]

Most sensible so far

f border control, on this scale doesn't actually exist yet, but given the government's previously superb record on delivering groundbreaking, innovative large-scale IT schemes, on time and on budget, I can't see why this all won't be in place in a year or s

Indeed it is a major problem and to repeat no surprise that EU use it as a delaying tactic.

Public sector delivery on iT - poor agreed
Does Davis known the answer - v much doubt it
DO I - certainly not

The known, knowns ^

Do we need a soft option - of course
WIll it involve a tech solution as trailed in Europe - most probably
ETA for delivery - who knows p, but not 2019

The known unknowns

Niw, let's find a solution because the issue isn't going away.

let's find a solution because the issue isn't going away.

There's a very, very, very easy solution.

Go on.... have a guess?

Clue: At present, the solution isn't required because 'the problem' doesn't exist! 😉

I am guessing it's involves heads and sands - correct ?

Or the constructive Varadkar initiative?

ETA for delivery - who knows p, but not 2019

thats the question but the Tories have a cutoff of before the next election when transition has to end.

staying in power trumps the realities of brexshit or good of the country