[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Let's just let people character assassinate anyone with an opposing political view point then argue the semantics of whether or not they meant to draw unfavorable comparisons with ISIS.

Really...
It was simple, a lot of people with Brexit views are intolerant of others/cultures/differences, would like more draconian punishments like executions returned and in general seem to want some well forgotten past returned to them where little old england was white, straight, well behaved and like they want to be (or more correctly hide others, repress the rest and use violence and totalitarian methods to achieve it). There are many parallels with other single minded nutters out there.

[quote=jimjam ]Oh LOL! You just insulted my intelligence!

You're doing it again...

It's cute that you think you can hide your dishonesty

Well now I'm curious in what way you think I've been dishonest?

Let's just let people character assassinate anyone with an opposing political view point then argue the semantics of whether or not they meant to draw unfavorable comparisons with ISIS.

I'm quite happy to "character assassinate" anybody on here if they write something silly and incorrect, whatever their political inclination - my personal political viewpoint is somewhat more open to change through the use of good argument than most people on here, so knock yourself out if you want to try and make one. As for the comparison with ISIS I suggest you go back and check exactly what was written - here's a clue: it's not semantics to point out that somebody didn't write what you're accusing them of writing.

@THM - in case you've missed it, my posts on this thread are mostly piss taking, as there doesn't seem to be much in the way of constructive purpose to it (though for reference jimjam's comprehension failure involved him referring to a different quote to the one you used - one which didn't even include wording open to misinterpretation).

@THM - in case you've missed it, my posts on this thread are mostly piss taking

Don't worry that's obvious - and the purpose easy to "comprehend" 😉

Still the STW heavyweight fact checkers haven't arrived?? Those that have seem to be offended by someone being offended by the weasel insults. How very odd.. summer hols I spose

Have you read the paper based on the survey referenced in that article?
Do you deny that ISIS have previous for capital punishment and flogging?
Ok - so both groups share some values. Agreed?

Don't we need some slightly better information on the values of leave voters and ISIS members to make such claims??

I know of some pretty despicable people who use weasel words and spend lot's of time on the internet (just saying, not actually suggesting you are like those despicable people; though I don't really know to be sure, just saying that there are parallels with the behaviours and it needs pointing out)

You think your posting is thought provoking and not intentionally offensive?? Truly delusional 😆 😆

Sigh....the fact that I even feel the need to bother. Let's just recap some of the things igm posted.

igm - Member

The remainers even now have refrained from killing people they disagree with. Unlike say, ISIS or the Brexies.

igm - Member

I'm not suggesting for an instant that all Brexies are murderers. However there is an interesting study, which I did post up a while back, showing how many traits they have in common with ISIS supporters .

igm - Member

I'll see if I can find the survey linking the Brexy and ISIS traits.

igm - Member

The Brexy-ISIS thing was a survey about 18 months ago of 24,000 folk as I recall which asked questions along the lines of "do you support the death penalty?" or "do you support public flogging for sex crimes?"
The questions that correlated best with Brexit voting intention were death penalty and public flogging - things ISIS was doing at the time.

igm - Member

I suggest that there are parallels in some of the regressive and reactionary thinking is displayed by both (Brexit voters and ISIS).

igm - Member
Widespread nasty actions with an absolute pinnacle way beyond anything the remainers have done? undoubtedly, that's documented.

igm - Member

Encouragers of hatred ? make your own mind up

Obviously there's no intention to draw any comparison or make any equivalence between people who voted leave and ISIS. None whatsoever.

But more to the point, is anyone stupid enough to see that this "study" and these "links" are representative of anything other than a desire to mislead, slander and catergorise a group?

Do leave voters feel that the death penalty should be used for the same crimes that ISIS use it? Do leave voters believe that the death penalty should be applied to homosexuals? Do leavers believe that atheists, or indeed anyone who believes in a religion other than their own should be murdered?

Public flogging - did the survey specify which crimes this would be applicable to or was it up to the respondants imagination? ISIS flog people for any number of crimes, as does the government of Saudi Arabia, crimes like immodesty, women dressing inappropriately.

Given enough surveys I'm sure I could establish a link between remainers and ISIS - some ISIS members even enjoy ice cream, or Coca-Cola, and I'd venture to say a number of remainders also enjoy ice cream? Why is there a link between the sugary treats enjoyed by ISIS and remainers???

******* pathetic. I'm done with this joke of a thread for another while.

Anyway, moving on....
Jambs, your lse conclusions aren't altogether on the money. Surprise.
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/infact/brexit-report-latest-remainers-deport-eu-citizens-uk-back-hard-european-union-study-explained-a7892216.html ]analysis[/url]

you mean the right wing press have deliberately misrepresented something about BRexit

plus ça change

So the Indy takes some made up stories and says their's made up. And misapplies the term hard Brexit. No wonder so few people were lefts reading it, either that or it's August and no news of substance

So the Indy takes some made up stories and says their's made up. And misapplies the term hard Brexit.

Eh?

Did you actually read the article? Seems like a lot of ( lazy? ) Journos took the numbers at face value and ran with it, including the independent ( which they confirm ), as the authors of the report failed to deliver their underlying data for two or three days.
Light on news in august? Maybe, but quite a few RW were making hay on this.

About 1/3 of it.....too many errors right at the start was the giveaway not to waste too much time on it

\you will need to highlight them for me as well [though i know you put effort into obfuscating your actual point] as they just seemed to report the news and then the survey

[quote=teamhurtmore ]So the Indy takes some made up stories and says their's made up.

So it should just ignore any flaws in a widely reported study? I presume the issues with that study were so obvious to you (I must have missed your post about that - linky?) that you forgot that you are far more intelligent than the average person who might need them pointing out.

Exactly what should quality journalism be doing which is more worthwhile than pointing out the flaws in something used as propaganda concerning the most significant political (and economic etc.) issue in our country at the moment?

And misapplies the term hard Brexit.

cite

More remoaner gloomongery

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-08-08/brexit-guts-british-science-and-risks-graphene-innovation

Writing quality - simple

Im unsurprised that Davis is now complaining that he wasn't consulted about the Hammond/Fox statement

[quote=teamhurtmore ]Writing quality - simple

😆

https://www.ft.com/content/60ce72f0-7e9c-11e7-ab01-a13271d1ee9c

I guess it is clear the Euro is failing, just minor issues that Sterling and the Dollar are failing faster.

The price is merely the price, nothing else. The US and the U.K. Merely recovered earlier and are peaking -in this cycle - earlier. EU is mid/late cycle and will peak 4q17/1q18. Look at the shape of the US yield curve - flat as a pancake. So € is likely to move up in time ver both the £ and $ - that's all there is too it.

Many of the Euroepans need a stronger currency like a cup of cold sick at the moment. Still if it makes people feel artificially virile, so be it. Better than moaning

Nail.on.the.Head @tmh

Anyone see the Channel 4 News piece on the migrant crises, NGO rescue boats picking up migrants whilst Libyian coastguard with EU support tries to stop them. Same EU who withdrew support to the Italian Navy when they where policing the same waters. Tragic shambles.

My lord you will argue this scenario anyway as long a you get to blame the EU do you need reminding of what you said at the time about the EU support for the navy ?

Have you considered just GAS that your fellow man is suffering indescribable horrors rather than use it to score points against the EU whatever happens ?

The US and the U.K. Merely recovered earlier and are peaking -in this cycle - earlier. EU is mid/late cycle and will peak 4q17/1q18.

You say it is a cycle, so why is the pound near historic lows? Not much of a cycle when its value has been destroyed?

When i first came to Switzerland 20+ years ago it was c3CHF to the pound, now it is c1.2. Agreed it doesn't help Swiss exporters to have such a strong currency but what does it say about the pound?

More sellers than buyers

The economies are cyclical and remarkably synchronised at the moment - albeit that the UK and US didn't have the 12/13 dip. Hence the latters' cycles are more mature and close to or past their peak. The flat US yield curve tells you all you need to know.

In contrast, the EU is at an earlier stage, the yield curve has been steeping and the € has been strengthening against the £ and the $, as one would expect.

Nothing out of the ordinary going on

Well at least today, the hard Brexshit BS can be put to bed hopefully - always was a silly concept.

Odd that Starmer - a more rational member of the Oppo - went off on a tangent though.

Seems like Big Phil has made some progress.

long past brexit's bedtime but I think we've got several more months of tantrums to get through first...

@mrmo same chf move against euro / historic components too. What is says is about how the Swiss have managed their economy

Interesting conversation with a mate last night who works for one of the bigger government departments. One that will be enormously affected in all manner of ways by Brexit. He was saying how due to the total absence of leadership or direction, they're still clueless as to what they're actually meant to be prioritising amid the absolutely vast mountain of work that this stupidity will entail

But not to worry, in true government fashion, a lot of very highly paid consultants have been brought in to advise. So far they're advised a range of very very expensive, huge IT schemes so as to replicate the systems we will no longer be part of once we leave the EU

The words 'White' and 'Elephant' cropped up repeatedly

It has managed one thing though. Within the department, it has absolutely unified opinion among the entire staff that the people in charge of Brexit don't actually have the remotest clue as to real world implications and consequences of what is about to happen, and that theres no way on earth, given the timescales involved, that this whole thing is going to be anything other than an absolute car crash!

Curious you say that tmh, hard Brexit is the only option on the table we are simply looking at length / type of transition period with a 2022 cut off date

Ex Italian PM said the EU members haven't even begun to consider the real negative impact of the UK leaving. The UK is free to adjust it's economy and trading relations but the EU cannot move quickly, 27 nations all with vested interests. If Davies does call their bluff and say no exit arrangements / financials discussions until trade is outlined then the S really will hit the fan. The rows about the budget pay / receive will explode

Have you considered just GAS that your fellow man is suffering indescribable horrors rather than use it to score points against the EU whatever happens ?

Don't hold your breath JY...

When i first came to Switzerland 20+ years ago it was c3CHF to the pound, now it is c1.2. Agreed it doesn't help Swiss exporters to have such a strong currency but what does it say about the pound?

Th obvious conclusion is that sterling has weakened.

Draw your own conclusions to why...

Dear God! Bill Esterson - Labours Shadow International Trade Secretary is on 5 Live

Listening to him squirm and evade answering a question about the Labour position on Brexit, its like listening to a 3 year old child try to explain quantum physics. Like his opposite number, he appears to be absolutely totally clueless. He seems genuinely unable to understand what the implications to leaving the custome union are

It seems like none of the politicians on either side have the first idea about what is actually taking place here. Just total ****-wits winging it, and making it up as they go along on both sides

Well at least today, the hard Brexshit BS can be put to bed hopefully

What makes you say that? I haven't caught the news today.

One of the few things May has got correct is

1 Brexshit means Brexshit
2. There is no such things as a hard or soft Brexshit

We are giving up membership of the EU - in line with the results of a democratic process - and now negotiating the terms under which we will continue to have access to the EU single market and v.v.

That's all there is to it 😉

There is nothing in any of the Uk documentation that suggests that H or S Brexshits either exist or are a target. Juts so sign that clouds the narrative - conveniently it seems

There is nothing in any of the Uk documentation that suggests that H or S Brexshits either exist or are a target

there was nothing in that survey that suggested hard or soft brexit existed or would be referenced either...

Juts so sign that clouds the narrative - conveniently it seems

No THM, the govt is floating a few kites but no-one is negotiating anything about access to the market, that is all scheduled for some way down the road, once sufficient progress has been made over the terms of the separation (including the Irish problem for which no credible solution has been presented).

Just as well there is no deadline to all this.

What survey - I am responding to Jambas
Fading eyesight and a phone with bloody autocorrect - my defence 😉

Well yes there are differing views re timetable and scheduling - but that is what we are doing, negotiating the terms of our future access and v.v.

I wish we could get on with it....

I did a calculation the other day. If each of the 17.4m people who voted Leave surrender their tax free personal allowance this year, we'd see slightly more than £40bn increased tax revenue, which could be spent on our settlement and leave enough to fly Liam Fox and one of his mates around the globe, so that he can make trade deals with oppressive regimes.

Getting on with it? Getting on with what?

One thing that's been consistent from the initial 'Brexit means Brexit' bollocks, right up to today is that nobody seems to have a clue what on earth the UK position is on pretty much anything at all

[b]WHAT DO WE WANT?!!!![/b]

Erm.... some sort of vague, non-specific Brexit type of thing

[b]WHEN DO WE WANT IT?!!!![/b]

Erm... at some indeterminate point in the future at the end of some sort of transitional phase type thing

It's impossible to negotiate all the trade deals in the period under A50 negotiations - it's always been obvious that a lengthy transition will be required.

By the time it's complete the EU will be a very different beast altogether - who knows 3 or even 27 different currencies?!?

thecaptain - Member
No THM, the govt is floating a few kites but no-one is negotiating anything about access to the market, that is all scheduled for some way down the road, once sufficient progress has been made over the terms of the separation (including the Irish problem for which no credible solution has been presented)

kite floating on the irish border issue is imminent and leaky:

[url] https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/british-government-stands-over-plan-for-light-touch-border-1.3186607 [/url]

We are giving up membership of the EU - in line with the results of a democratic process - and now negotiating the terms under which we will continue to have access to the EU single market and v.v.

Well to most people, the nature of the terms is what defines 'hard' or 'soft'. Everyone else knows what that means, you seem to be annoyed with these terms for some reason.

The governments has today stated a position on the customs union that is utterly nonsensical. Basically "we want to remain part of the customs union, but at the same time we don't want to be part of the customs union"

Clear?

And David Davis is blathering on about BMWs again like some befuddled old dementia sufferer in a nursing home

The Eu must be looking at all this and just thinking "WTF?!!!"

There is nothing in any of the Uk documentation that suggests that H or S Brexshits either exist or are a target. Juts so sign that clouds the narrative - conveniently it seems

Indeed, the term hard is used by those who somehow think there is a nirvana of trade deals waiting to be snatched up, who have a desire to light a bonfire of legislation reducing worker & individual rights, lowering standards across the board from the environment to food to banking.

Soft for those who who'd like to avoid that catastrophic outcome.

Kind of puts an interesting perspective on those in each camp IMHO..

Mol, I'm not angry. I understand it. It would be helpful if others made the effort to do so to, including the politicians who use sloppy language to deliberately confuse

Binners has conveniently proved my point 😉

UK desire to stay in a CU with the U.K. during a three year transition period after 2019 exit. Then leave under terms to be agreed.

Pretty clear. Achievable? We shall see.

[but looks like a fudge is evolving q well so far]

Then leave under terms to be agreed.

The Third Coming will be here before that's agreed!

What has been absolutely consistent throughout this whole shambles is the 'cake and eat it' almost colonial arrogance of the Brexiteers.

They've still banging on as if all we have to do is let everyone else in the EU what we'd like, and they'll all just rubber stamp it and wish us good luck as we go on our way, setting sail for Empire 2.0, enjoying all the advantages of the single market/customs union, while bearing none of the responsibilities

Basically, all the people involved in the UK side of the negotiations are absolutely delusional morons, and they can put it off for as long as they like with their vague indecision, but at some point there going to be a very rude awakening

It's looking increasingly likely that this will just carry on. Another 18 months of confused, directionless dithering, before absolute blind panic sets in, but too late as we crash out with consequences so catastrophic that it'll make so called 'Project Fear's predictions look like a best-case scenario

Of course, just like Dave after ushering in this cluster-**** in the first place, they'll all just walk away from the shitstorm they've created and leave everyone else to clean up their mess

Step away from the noise and the remoaners Binners

What we have actually seen in a considerable softening of opening positions on both sides ALREADY

This bodes well for a sensible conclusion or at least a reasonable fudge.

Even the nutters are becoming flaccid

Then leave under terms [b]to be agreed[/b]

Important bit in bold.

We don't know what will happen or what our government really wants. So no, not clear at all.

Well blow me away

Anyone would think that this had been done before and that the government wanted it in the first place !

I can only think of one sensible way to remain part of the customs union.

So (assuming that the EU agree) how much will we be paying in during the transition period?

the cost of Brexit just keep on rising

Quite telling that Fox/Hammond statement was categorical that transition must end before next election, thats the cut off, not when we are in a strong trading position or when the new free& frictionless customs system is ready....

nope the deadline is the one that makes sure that the tories cling on to power rather than whats actually best for the country.

The economies are cyclical and remarkably synchronised at the moment - albeit that the UK and US didn't have the 12/13 dip. Hence the latters' cycles are more mature and close to or past their peak.

Planets aligned. Sheep's entrails in accord. Good to know that the economy is in safe hands!!

It's looking increasingly likely that this will just carry on. Another 18 months of confused,

Nah, this is all just prep for blaming the EU's "unreasonableness" when our side do the planned walk out over the bill.

That's what the papers will be braying for, and that's what they'll do.

In

Mol - my previous post was written on way out to lunch. Reading back it (probably) comes across badly - the blow me away bit. It was meant as a joke but doesn't read that way, excuse me.

My real point was that expectations need to be made in the context of the fact that this is something very new, very complex and for which no one is well prepared. Plus the EU are past masters at "pretending to negotiate" while pushing the opponent into a corner. It will involve a lot of back and fro and difficult compromise especially in tears, of feeding the baying mob, while getting in with the real stuff (largely behind closed doors)

FWIW, I think too many people approach each bit of news form an overly clean set of expeditions that will always be disappointed when set against the very murky and messy reality of what we are dealing. Hence, on balance I tend to be more positive than most (my bias) when it comes to interpreting each news item. I am relieved that some of the nonsense has already gone and confident that further compromise will evolve. But it won't happen in a straight line.

Oh look Davis's white paper contradicts what fox & Hammond said in their joint statement just 3 days ago:
We won't be able to negotiate any new deals until after the transition....

Brexishambles- over a year after the vote and they are still lying to us

a new and innovative, untested approach to customs control....

1. write what you owe on a post it and leave it on the gate
2. Crack on it will be fine
3. Flat tax rate pre declared at 25% (trust based)

any other ideas

Your assessment seems reasonable THM.

Is there really any way that our economy will not simply drop behind the competition for decades to come?

@mrmo same chf move against euro / historic components too. What is says is about how the Swiss have managed their economy

Which for an economy that is closely tied to the EU, suggests that the UKs problems are not the EU?

Which comes back to a point i made long ago, the UK has been shafted by Westminster and not Brussels. Going forward without a HUGE change in the way the UK is run we are going to have serious problems.

Oh there's going to be a HUGE change in the way in the way the U.K. Is run alright

But it's going to be in the wrong direction. A few people will benefit enormously, and make obscene sums of money to add to their already enormous wealth

The rest of us? Do you think this lot care?

A few people will benefit enormously, and make obscene sums of money to add to their already enormous wealth

I thought you said a change?

How do you think it's going to look without the brake applied by the EU to the wilder Chicago Shool, Neoliberal, Ayn Rand fantasies of those presently at the wheel?

What this country has in place now will look like pure socialism compared to what this lot have got designs on

Sorry binners aren't you confident the next govwenment will be a Labour one ? Tories will fight the next GE on pretty much (if not identical) workers rights etc that we have now. Would be too much of an open goal to do anyrhing else.

Would be too much of an open goal to do anyrhing else.

Yeah coz the current crop of torries would never fk up an election.... 😉

😆

Increase productivity => increase wages
Improve education => increase productivity => increase wages
Reduce role of state = improve education = improve etc

(Plus with 3 abive we can reduce tax and the forced slavery to the government 😉 )

Chicago School 😉 blimey Binns you have a good memory

Tories will fight the next GE on pretty much (if not identical) workers rights etc that we have now.

And the evidence that they would respect a manifesto pledge is?

How is the £350M promised by one of the three brexiteers looking?

What has £350m got to do with Tories?

Reduce role of state = improve education = improve etc

Oh and an explanation of how you are improving education with the state having reduced role . Feel free to use the past, when we did not have state education, to evidence your answer.

[img] [/img]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-vote-leave-director-dominic-cummings-leave-eu-error-nhs-350-million-lie-bus-a7822386.html

If your going to use such claims, then walk away from them. That is electoral fraud, and an affront to democracy. Boris should be on trial.

Good to see the Independent still support getting in A level students for work experience.

Tories will fight the next GE on pretty much (if not identical) workers rights etc that we have now. Would be too much of an open goal to do anyrhing else.

The problem is that the labour shadow international trade secretary interviewed this morning by Emma Barnett - get on iPlayer and give it a listen - managed to make Liam Fox sound like Churchill. I've never heard such blathering lack of understanding. It was beyond belief the utter lack of grasp he had on the subject

The Tories at least know what they want - though they won't vocalise it, obviously - they want to bend us all over and go in dry.

The Labour Party? I haven't a clue! And clearly neither do they.

It's a bloody tragedy! Because either outcome means we're all well and truly *ed! Just from different directions

Labour trying to recreate some fantasy 70's nationised utopia outside the EU, or the Torys trying to establish an Ayn Rand wet dream

How the * did we arrive at those two choices?

And as already pointed out Jamners.... if you could fill us in on how Tory election pledges generally shape up, that'd be great?

How are all those new grammar schools looking? Or anything else in their laughable manifesto?

Strong and stable?

Democracy?

Reducing the role of the state =/= increased efficiency and certainly =/= improved performance.
The private sector are equally capable of employing ****s, but are just generally better at making the tax payer underwrite thier liabilities.
Privatising profits and publicising debits.

With adverts?

@kimbers well the election car crash was dreamt up by a few bods who are now long gone. May's mistake was not consulting the party in particular on the manifesto. The "current bunch" will not make the same mistake again.

TMH I have little doubt the EU are "pretending" hence my long held view our focus should be on new global arrangements. The EU can play catch up later if and when they are ready. My own view is the arguing over the future pay/receive numbers from the EU27 bdget will take up far more of their time than Brexit.

Just read this, all very sensible