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I am originally Dutch but came to the UK about a decade ago. I like the people and the landscape and in general feel much more at home here than I ever did living in the Netherlands. So I built a life here, worked, paid my taxes, found a British partner, with whom I'd like to start a family. My home is here. So rather fearful to suddenly be reduced to immigrant status.
I feel no attachment to my Dutch citizenship but would like to keep the option open to return for a period of time since my parents are getting on and my mom is disabled. With Dutch anti immigration sentiments rising to 1940's levels I am loathe to give up my Dutch passport.
Just thought I'd ad this. It's easy to forget, in the midst of all the percentages and trade agreements, that your choice affects actual people's lives. Not just me, but also all the British living and working in the EU. What's going to happen?
The case for Brexit IMO is that the EU is a corrupt and anti-democratic organisation. The counter argument is that it is nevertheless better than the shower of shite we have in Westminster.
I think there are many on the Remain side (and posting here) who see the EU as a controlling influence on British politics and think thats better than our own democratically elected government.
@Edrakat - thanks for posting and joining the discusion. I hope the gerenal tone of it doesn't put you off. I am firmly Vote Leave and it is my opinion that there is zero chance you would be asked to leave the UK in the event of our exit from the EU. Zero. Sadly for you Holland does not allow you to keep your Dutch passport in the event of taking a Brirish one, I know this as an ex-colleague with joint Columbian and Dutch citizenship had to give up the Dutch when he took British cirizenship. It may be that in the event of a Brexit Holland would apply the joint nationality rule to allow you to keep your Dutch passport, I hope so. I have a French wife and will almost certainly live and work in Europe in the next 10 years, if I have to apply fir a visa like I did for Singapore and US then so be it. I hooe I'll have the skills to be accepted but I acknowledge another countries right to decide who it wants
@mike have been busy this morning and off to scope out a mtb area another STW Paris resident posted on. Boris was a bit foolish to mention Hitler given recent Livingstone row, he's well studied enough to have suggestd the Kaiser to go with Napoleon.
@MrLeb Even the least well read student of history would recognise Winston's Churchill's belief in Great Britain and its status as a world player and a force for good. There is not a snowballs chance in hell he intended Great Britian to be consumed into a European superstate. His words on Europe where with the intention to effectively eradicate France and Germany as independent nations, to join them economically and politically to stop them being at each others throats and dragging Europe and the world into conflict. This whilst we focused internationally as well as looking Westward to the US.
Corbyn is going on holiday over the period of the vote, leaving before the 23rd - Benn was asked about this on Sky. It does seem he realises that being around and campaigning for elections isn't his strong point 8)
it is my opinion that there is zero chance you would be asked to leave the UK in the event of our exit from the EU. Zero.....but I acknowledge another countries right to decide who it wants
yes we are leaving the EU and banging on about immigration and free movement but honestly deep down we want you all to stay. 😕
The reality is we have no idea what your status will be and you are correct to be worried about this as the outcome, despites jambys unswerving faith, is uncertain.
I almost wish corbyn would resign just so that you would STFU about him.
Edraket - Member
So rather fearful to suddenly be reduced to immigrant status.
There is nothing to be fearful about being immigrant coz everyone will be treated the same.
With Dutch anti immigration sentiments rising to 1940's levels I am loathe to give up my Dutch passport.
The reason is simple. Your lefties thinking party/people messed things up for everyone including other legitimate immigrants. The lefties take comfort in their "whiter than white view" but they have forgotten their own locals who do not feel that way.
My only way to describe the situation is like "a bit of salt in your food will taste good but if you have too much salt it will taste very salty". There is no such thing as free movement of people in the world coz we are not designed that way.
Just thought I'd ad this. It's easy to forget, in the midst of all the percentages and trade agreements, that your choice affects actual people's lives. Not just me, but also all the British living and working in the EU. What's going to happen?
It will affect everyone all over the world but we all have to face it the same way and adopt to the changes. The ones that you need to blame are the ones that ignore the feeling of the local people. Who spoiled it for all? Lefties political correctness. Put it this way at least you are citizen of a European country so even if things change you will be impacted least by comparison to say an Indonesian.
ninfan - Memberjust like all the lefties pointed and laughed at the blonde fool when he said that ping pong was invented on the dining tables of England, eh Junky?
You realise the wiff waff story was proved wrong, don't you? It wasn't a "lefty" thing, it was "he is trying to be clever and talking pish" thing. [i]I[/i] laughed because he came up with a daft line in a speech apparently just because to him ping pong sounds a bit chinese, didn't bother to check the facts, got it wrong, then refused to accept he was wrong- it was all very Boris, whether he's talking about ping pong or driving around in a bus with a misleading claim on the side about EU costs.
"Only on the most trivial level - you may as well say that the Eurovision Song Contest is just the same as Nazism. Hitler's superstate was one minus 6 million Jews. If you want to say that the EU is the same as that then you must think that those 6 million are irrelevant, and that make you ... you know, a bit anti-semitic."
Your are a clever person but that is rubbish and you know it. Don't let BJ cloud your opinion, why is there no historical context of the EU commissions federal plans and the various other attempts to have a European state. Why can't a person use history to defend there argument? If not how can anyone use the long period of peace we have enjoyed in western Europe as a reason for maintaining and strengthening the EU?
I'd mention that the Romans did a fairly good job of it (in their view) given how long the empire went on for and how inclusive it was for those that supported it. Don't talk about the romans though as you'll be anti-loads of different peoples and religions (its a long list) who they exterminated.
It seems a bit daft IMO to compare a "European superstate" which is imposed by stormtroopers and gas chambers with one freely entered into by democracies even if the subjects then feel a bit fed up about bananas and vacuum cleaners. It's just an entirely dishonest argument.
Brexit - The movie
Some very good arguments for voting out, without mentioning immigration once.
Well the first sentence in that film is bullshit.
And because of that I won't be watching the other 1hr 10mins.
Pretty much. "We the people" FFS
It sounded like a Britain First post.
as there was no Churchill, bulldog or spitfires I stopped watching that liberal namby pampy pish as well 😛
the various other attempts to have a European state
There has been no attempt at a superstate. there have been attempts at empires formed by military conquest. They are not the same things and it was a cheap slur.
OK, granted maybe they could have toned down the intro, nevertheless there are some interesting facts in this film such as over 10,000 of the unelected EU bureaucrats (1 in 5) are paid more than David Cameron! Also some analysis of how Switzerland has fared outside the EU.
Switzerland is in the single market and has to harmonise with all the EU rules...did it mention that - its not really "outside" in the sense Brexiters want to be outside
Oh and it pays and has free movement of people to get access to the free market
The claim is that they take home more than him not that they are paid more
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10847979/10000-European-Union-officials-better-paid-than-David-Cameron.html
this explains how one has to add pensions, tax rate, pay and benefits and then use "take home pay" to get to that point.
NEXT
😉
and 🙄
There is not a snowballs chance in hell he intended Great Britian to be consumed into a European superstate
How about providing some FACTS to back YOUR opinion? Because, that, is all that is. Nothing more - show me where WC said/wrote anything that can substantiate YOUR OPINION - then I'll treat it with a little more weight...
Switzerland is in the single market and has to harmonise with all the EU rules...did it mention that - its not really "outside" in the sense Brexiters want to be outsideOh and it pays and has free movement of people to get access to the free market
You can check the Switzerland part from 51 mins onwards. Switzerland like any other country outside the EU is free to do deals with the EU if it sees fit and of course any other country selling outside of the EU would have to harmonise with EU rules for products shipped into the EU area. However the Swiss recently voted in a referendum to limit immigration so the EU will have to suck this up or kick Switzerland out of the the free trade agreement.
The claim is that they take home more than him not that they are paid more
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10847979/10000-European-Union-officials-better-paid-than-David-Cameron.htmlthis explains how one has to add pensions, tax rate, pay and benefits and then use "take home pay" to get to that point.
NEXT
The bottom line then, is they are paid more, glad you agree!
Well the first sentence in that film is bullshit.
Hardly, the IMf claiming the impact of Brexit on thenUKmwould be wrose than finalcial crises of 2008, or the First World War or The Great Depression of 2009. Osbourne claiming it will crash house prices, the Treasury inventing a whole new economic measure of GDP per household based on a fanciful long term scenario which excludes the impending Greek default, shall I go on ? How is that not organisational bullying ? Remember what a disaster it was going to be if we didn't join the euro ?
@mudmuncher they pay just flat rate 10% tax and have £45k pa of allowable expenses for which they don't have to provide a receipt - its the very definition of a gravy train
@mrleb just read every post of mine with the intro in-my-opinion if it makes you any happier. Any interpretation of Churchill's comments other than mine is inane, in my opinion of course.
@Jambalaya - good points.
Lets also not forget Cameron's ridiculous assertion that Brexit could trigger WW3 in Europe!
If that's not bullshit I don't know what is.
You're not big in facts are you Jamba?
I did a little reading & the conclusion appears to be that WC would have been more likely Remain than Leave.
Did you see what I did there?
I didn't put words into a dead mans mouth......you've no proof whatsoever to back up your "snowballs chance in hell....." NONE.
But academics who know more than I, probably you too, mostly suggest WC would be in the Remain camp. The caveat they add is they can't speak for a dead man.
Something you seem to be able to do!?
Have a read:
[url= https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=winston+churchil+eu&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari#safe=off&hl=en-gb&q=winston+churchill+eu ]Link[/url]
Whatever Churchill would or wouldn't have done - who cares? He was an inspirational wartime leader and ... ?
I agree Dr J, but to claim he was this or that when you can't ask the man himself needs to be pointed out as being an opinion not fact.
mrlebowski - MemberI didn't put words into a dead mans mouth......you've no proof whatsoever to back up your "snowballs chance in hell....." NONE.
But academics who know more than I, probably you too, mostly suggest WC would be in the Remain camp. The caveat they add is they can't speak for a dead man.
Something you seem to be able to do!?
Of course Winston Churchill would remain in the IN camp for three reasons:
1. Immediately after WWII, Churchill has to keep an eye on the situation in Europe so he would definitely need to be in for rebuilding the place. Remember, it was British that was the last one standing that fought back and won? There was a leadership there and as we know the winner(s) set the rules so as a Winner (Brits) things were Hunky-dory.
2. To be in is also a way to keep an eye on the USSR as they are just "outside the main doors". In a way, it was like "keeping your friends close but keep your "enemy(s)" closer" because USSR was right at the door step. Hence it is only logical for Churchill to babysit them (Europe to prevent relapse). The babies have grown up and now they want to turn the table on the babysitter.
3. This is very important. Churchill is a leader and he could lead as a leader. Your current post war leaders, apart from Thatcher, are merely "stewards" that are good at spins, yes spins but taking the lead, No.
You lot? Nil chance! You are like lambs to slaughter or lemmings in a computer games.
However the Swiss recently voted in a referendum to limit immigration so the EU will have to suck this up or kick Switzerland out of the the free trade agreement.
Yes, and from what I've read, the EU has already applied sanctions linked to the Swiss restriction on free movement. Swiss participation in EU wide schemes such as ERASMUS has been curtailed and is already having an impact.
Regarding Churchill, there is no need to put words into a dead man's mouth. He was on record as pro European integration and was of the opinion that the days of nation states had passed [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/a-euro-sceptic-churchill-never-1365239.html ]He WANTED a United States of Europe[/url]
Churchill has to keep an eye on the situation in Europe so he would definitely need to be in for rebuilding the place. Remember, it was British that was the last one standing that fought back and won? There was a leadership there and as we know the winner(s) set the rules so as a Winner (Brits) things were Hunky-dory.
FFFS - you don't know history either...?
ETA - regarding Churchill's leadership. The Right seem to hold him up as A Strong Leader... Churchill was undoubtedly the wartime leader Britain needed, but he wasn't the "Strong" Thatcher type leader the Tories idolise. Churchill's strength was in presiding over a coalition government and keeping the people of the country together in the face of calamity... Whilst reportedly in a newt like state. That is true leadership, unlike Thatcher et al.
Can't be arsed to read the bo***** but surely a single currency, cross border laws, and limited independence to object to EU rulings, half way there to a superstate?
@mudmuncher - thanks for that, an excellent film. 70 minutes well spent watching that and the Youtube channel has it broken down into easily referencable segments. Really shows the non-sense in the way Remain seeks to over-emphasise trade deals particularly as growth within the EU is so anemic - which co-incidently is why the EU is so desperate to expand come what may - an attempt to grow its protectionist trade aeea.
@DrJ I didn't bring up Churchill, the Remainers here did
However the Swiss recently voted in a referendum to limit immigration so the EU will have to suck this up or kick Switzerland out of the the free trade agreement.
YOu do know the EU have responded to this request more than once dont you.
The EU has ruled out changes, however. Last December, it "reconfirm[ed] the negative reply in July 2014 to the Swiss request to renegotiate the agreement".The EU "considers that the free movement of persons is a fundamental pillar of EU policy and that the internal market and its four freedoms are indivisible," EU ministers said in a statement in December 2014.
Its not free to do as it please it has to comply with the EU rules or it has to leave. It wants to cherry pick what it agrees to , the EU declined so my point that they have to harmonise is true then.
What point do you think you just made there?
😯The claim is that they take home more than him not that they are paid more
......
The bottom line then, is they are paid more, glad you agree!
I have no idea how anyone could reach that conclusion from that post it surely took effort to get it that wrong.
Have any of the Remain-ers got a link to a video making the positive and passionate case to stay in ?
Vote Leave on fb have started to flag up the Greek debt crises with the next €2.6bn due in July, money they don't have.
Junky those EU employees make a lot of money, it really is all about the total package after tax. No one cares about headline before tax salaries apart from headline writers. Its just like the STW how has a potental job offfer with the a political orgnaisation, whats important is its €6k a month tax free not that the normal job equivalent is €160k pa
Its not free to do as it please it has to comply with the EU rules or it has to leave. It wants to cherry pick what it agrees to , the EU declined so my point that they have to harmonise is true then.What point do you think you just made there?
I don't think anything is final yet. Switzerland are not bound by EU law, they may have made a few concessions to get a free trade deal, but their people have spoken and democracy will prevail. If the EU can't stomach this then maybe they will leave.
The claim is that they take home more than him not that they are paid more
......
The bottom line then, is they are paid more, glad you agree!I have no idea how anyone could reach that conclusion from that post it surely took effort to get it that wrong.
Seems you are trying to win an argument based on semantics.
Ok, so they may not be "paid" more, but they certainly trouser, pocket, snaffle, (call it what you want) more - whether that is through fiddling expenses or having special low tax rates. If anything that is worse in my book.
If the EU can't stomach this then maybe they will leave.
Your claim was
Switzerland like any other country outside the EU is free to do deals with the EU if it sees fit
So its not free to do deals it has to obey EU rules or leave as I said. WHilst in the EU free trade area it has to do exactly the same as we do, harmonise, follow the rules and pay. i dont think this is the brexit dream as its not really leaving.
FWIW the EU actually just refused to discuss it, said its all or nothing* these are the rules of the club, that is how "free" it is to do as it pleases. The EU sets the rules Switzerland complies or leaves.
Seems you are trying to win an argument based on semantics
Seems you were wrong and have finally, ungraciously conceded the point
* my guess is you call it a bully now
Have any of the Remain-ers got a link to a video making the positive and passionate case to stay in ?
No idea if there is any but I'd imagine there is but I've not looked. I'm sure there's some that are full of misconceptions too but hopefully not as pathetically melodramatic and untruthful with such a crap opening line.
Still, look on the bright side. If we vote to remain we potentially have the following countries joining the union. Turkey, Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro, Albania.
The vote remain camp are most likely thrilled at the prospect of welcoming these economic power houses to the club.
Gisela Stuart, Labour MP and Chair of Vote Leave on how Labour is getting it wrong in the Referendum and its support of the Remain campaign. Too many powerful quotes to repeat here, well worth a few minutes to read (a bit on Corbyn's campaigning too)
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/15/labour-pro-eu-stance-brexit-is-recruitment-agent-for-ukip#comment-74298112 ]Labour's campaign driving voters to UKiP[/url]
@Drac to be honest my question was very tongue in cheek as its my view nkne exists, frankly no one is passionately pro EU. Not Corbyn, McDonald, Cameron, Osbourne etc.
@flangi I assume you've seen the average earnings in those countries as low as £7.5k pa "upto" £12.5k in Turkey. I absolutely get why they want to jon, they are paid to do so (inc by us) and they get grant after grant and the ability to work in the EU and send money home.
@Junky no one is trying to win an argument here, we've all been around stw long enough to know that will never happen either way. All that happens is there is an event, eg Referendum or Election which determines the "result" or we get bored and move onto something else.
Ah the Edinburgh defence.
Gisela Stuart, Labour MP and Chair of Vote Leave on how Labour is getting it wrong in the Referendum and its support of the Remain campaign.
The irony of the immigrant counselling against immigration.
[i]Drac - Moderator
And because of that I won't be watching the other 1hr 10mins[/i]
And then.
[i]Drac - Moderator
No idea if there is any but [b]I'd imagine[/b] there is but [b]I've not looked[/b]. [b]I'm sure there's some that are full of misconceptions too[/b] but hopefully not as pathetically melodramatic and untruthful with such a crap opening line. [/i]
Remainista, in, I won't listen, my mind is closed, my view, institutionalised, shocker!
Stay classy
😉
The irony of the immigrant counselling against immigration.
What's ironic about that ? As I've posted before 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants have the most to lose from high levels of immigration as it undermines their wages. We support immigration, we just want to be able to contol it.
With UKIP taking substantial numbers of votes from Labour in the North Corbyn's repeated claims that immigration is only a good thing show's he and Labour are not listening to concerns among their core support. That was one of Gisela's key points.
no one is trying to win an argument here
Some of us are quite fond of being factually correct whilst still just having chats/opinions...you are welcome to join us 😉
There is something quite odd abut an immigrant warning us about immigrants.
However it also reassures me about how well we integrate folk into our ways that within a few decades they are as narrow minded as some of us 😉
With UKIP taking substantial numbers of votes from Labour in the North Corbyn's repeated claims that immigration is only a good thing show's he and Labour are not listening to concerns among their core support. That was one of Gisela's key points
Maybe he's right and the people are wrong?
rkk01 - Member
Churchill has to keep an eye on the situation in Europe so he would definitely need to be in for rebuilding the place....
FFFS - you don't know history either...?
I like to watch history channel with the experts interpreting events immediately after WWII and I ain't going to argue with them about their views. Good enough?
ETA - regarding Churchill's leadership. The Right seem to hold him up as A Strong Leader... Churchill was undoubtedly the wartime leader Britain needed, but he wasn't the "Strong" Thatcher type leader the Tories idolise.
Nope, I don't idolise Churchill but I respect him as who he was.
There is no perfect leaders that can be good in everything coz they are all flaw in somewhere or another but what the post war leaders seem to lack is a certain courage, apart from Thatcher that is. Post war leaders might have gone to war but always with Merica behind except Thatcher of course.
Churchill's strength was in presiding over a coalition government and keeping the people of the country together in the face of calamity... Whilst reportedly in a newt like state. That is true leadership, unlike Thatcher et al.
Indeed that's where true leadership surfaced in time of urgency.
Thatcher is not far off albeit the scale is very small by comparison nevertheless she went it alone.
Churchill would be considered a "mad man" if he were to deal with current politics because he lacks the skills to spin.
I like to watch history channel with the experts interpreting events immediately after WWII and I ain't going to argue with them about their views. Good enough?
May well be - but if so, I suggest the wording in your post was a little off, because this:
Remember, it was British that was the last one standing that fought back and won? There was a leadership there and as we know the winner(s) set the rules so as a Winner (Brits) things were Hunky-dory
Is wide of the mark...
The Brits weren't the last ones standing and a fairly minor role in fighting back (I know, we were part of D-Day and the Northern / Western European campaign, as well as the fight up through Italy)
It wasn't even the Yanks, although they like to think otherwise.
As for influence, my understanding is that by 1945, Roosevelt / Truman and Stalin had pretty much cut Churchill out of any say in how the post-war set up was going to look...
Well Brexiteers are reaching greater lows both on and off the forum today. Bojo being a total arse again.
@Drac to be honest my question was very tongue in cheek as its my view nkne exists, frankly no one is passionately pro EU. Not Corbyn, McDonald, Cameron, Osbourne etc.
And this is a total crock - sorry. But for goodness sake lets get some perspective and common sense here. Just because on side does not have to devote itself to lies (cost of memebrship), silly videos, xenophobia (MANY millions of dakies/pikeys coming in to scrounge off us - we must stop them) and gross misrepresentations of history does not mean that they are not passionate about how the UK should interact with the EU.
Perhaps they are simple fed up with listening to Brexit BS. I know I am. A truly, truly appalling debate with headlines dominated by extreme trivialities and led by someone who prefers to play the fool. It takes a lot to make the Scottish referndum debate appear reasonable, but boy the Brexiteers are doing a bloody good job of it.Most sensible people are keeping their heads down waiting for the moment to exercise their democratic right with dignity and poise. No one needs this crass debate - can we not just bring the date forward and let common sense prevail?
So when faced with the passion of nutty conspiracry theorists do most people respond by showing equal levels of emotion or do they stay calm ignore the nonsense/politely point out its fallacies? And who are the smart ones here?