[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

is this another thing where you brexies predict that [s]Austria Holland France[/s] Poland are about to leave the EU and make it collapse ?

No, this is just another example of how posting anything that doesn't state 100% allegiance to the EUtopia will get you called a "brexie", despite repeatedly pointing out the opposite.

THM gets the same, despite consistently and overtly being pro-remain but anti-euro.

I guess some people are just too closed minded and entrenched to accept such possibilities. 💡

As it happens, this is of particular interest to me due to having Polish family, but also an excuse to use the terms "ExitPol" and "EUtopia". 😆

seeing as Tusks words were reported virtually no where and, despite his position, are part of his own personal dispute with Kaczynski, Im not surprised it wasnt commented on here, or virtually anywhere

especially when us remoaners have had so much more juicy brexishambles tidbits to complain about like Davis hopeless start to negotiations, Gove giving away fishing rights or us offering a divorce bill we can ill-afford...

EUtopia. 😆

you are chewk and I claim my free box of frogs

well aware you claim to be antibrexit but your continued clutching at straws to prove a point has forced me to recategorise you as on of [b]THEM[/b]!

Sbob - I never realised you weren't a Brexy. Pretty much everything you've posted has seemed Brexy but if you say you're not I'll happily believe you.
On the other hand I can tell that THM isn't a Brexy because of what he posts. I disagree with him on many things and I suspect we both feel slightly dirty when we agree, but EU generally good, euro generally bad, FoM generally good - he's consistent and IMHO correct.

On FoM, the immigration policies the likes of Jamba propose with hurt the working class far more than FoM by installing a thick glass ceiling.

If I recall correctly, roughly 17m people voted Leave last year.

If everyone who voted Leave were to surrender their tax free personal allowance for one year (currently £11,500 for 2017-18) then the treasury would be able to stump up £39bn to settle our accounts with the EU.

I'm very in favour of this.

[edit] 17.4 million people, thus surrendering a total of £40.1bn. That gives enough change to pay for Dr Liam Fox's round the world trade deal jaunt. He could even bring a friend along, too.

igm - Member

Sbob - I never realised you weren't a Brexy.

I was a fence sitter early on, probably leaning towards leave due to my Polish side not wanting to be ruled by the Germans. 😆
I weighed up the pros and cons and voted to remain. 🙂

Pretty much everything you've posted has seemed Brexy but if you say you're not I'll happily believe you.

I don't see the point in only discussing the pros of EU membership just to be on the winning side of the argument, and I have stated that I voted to remain almost as many times as kimbers has used the phrase "little Englanders". 😉

I don't see the point in only discussing the pros of EU membership just to be on the winning side of the argument,

actually we're on the losing side (well everyone loses thanks to brexit I suppose)

actually we're on the losing side

We?
I'm hopefully going to be eligible for at least two *EU passports, I'm European as ****; full mongrel. 😆

*don't.

Sbob - honest mistake on my part. I've missed you saying you voted to remain, but hey there's probably a lot of stuff on here I've missed over the years.

Perhaps I just find THM easier to engage with - and don't take that as a derogatory statement, different people warm to different argument styles. Actually I quite enjoy arguing with Jamba too - well most of the time, occasionally he rubs me up the wrong way but that's probably mutual

blows a kiss at IGM

(Can't remember, what is it that we tend to disagree on?)

You're an evil right winger, I'm a bleeding heart champagne socialist liberal lefty.

Something like that.

And you may have suggested that 26" isn't the future.

Takes back kiss

My libertarian sympathies make me appear RW to some, but that is not true. On most tests I am (slightly on the left edge of) centre (at best.). I do like bubbly too althoug tired of endless cheap prosecco - a Brexshit bonus 😉

I can't see the fuss about wheels and many things bike related (is there a bike forum here?) I just ride them - having said that, you are correct, personally I am fully in the 29er camp! But have always felt that it's horses for courses.

anyone here Grieve wiping the floor with Patterson on R4?

Brexiters have no clue what to do about ECJ rulings

just as with everything else, feeding off the lies in the press theyve created so much ignorance about the ECJ that explaining the reality to leavers is impossible

Chapeau for keeping the thread live - but really, let's keep it factual if poss 😉

Back in March the Gov was pretty clear: the ECJ will no longer have jurisdiction over the UK after Brexit. But historic rulings will carry the same weight as those our our Supreme Court - ie, they remain part of UK law until there is time and appetite to change them (err, perhaps never?!?)

A funny definition of "no idea" - among much uncertainty, this is one of the more certain issues.

Otherwise, carry on.....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/08/judge-calls-for-clarity-on-status-of-ecj-rulings-in-uk-after-brexit

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-european-court-justice-future-eu-exit-lord-neuberger-supreme-court-president-ecj-a7881836.html
Well here is a confused legal expert- well the head of the Supreme court who make the decisions- asking for clarity. Perhaps you could give him a call and let him know its all clear and sorted?

I am sure he will appreciate your self assured condescending smarm, even if it snot fully accurate facts you are delivering, as much as we do.

Judges have been told they will no longer be forced to do so[ apply ECJ rulings and case law], but can if they think it appropriate. However, the president of the supreme court, Lord Neuberger, called on the government to state its position explicitly.

Ironically its not quite as clear as you said

Perhaps you just understand it less well than the pre eminent expert in this area?

However, the president of the supreme court, Lord Neuberger, called on the government to state its position explicitly.

Hmmmm... seems to be cropping up quite a lot that phrase, doesn't it?

Just out of interest, can anyone list a single area of this cluster**** where there is actually an explicitly stated government position? Because none spring readily to mind.

Still... I'm sure everything will be just fine......

[s]Ironically[/s] Unsurprisingly its not quite as clear as you said

Aside from the previously stated problem over conversion of case law into statute, there is also the issue of which court(s) will oversea any new arrangements that will replace those over which ECJ is currently involved. And there will be new arrangements, yes? I'm half expecting a new court, parallel to ECJ & the already parallel court that EFTA uses… mostly accepting ECJ case law and new edicts passed down from the EU and rubber stamped by its weaker partner… something for future europhobes to rant against in their retirements.

Just out of interest, can anyone list a single area of this cluster**** where there is actually an explicitly stated government position? Because none spring readily to mind.

More of this kind of fun to come.

I reckon we'll have another year of "revelations", Government did not know this, the public did not know that etc, before there will be serious consideration in killing brexit. Of course there may be further complication in the tory party putting its own survival ahead of the country.

Euratom and chlorinated chicken are only the top 1mm of a very large iceberg.

Back in March the Gov was pretty clear: the ECJ will no longer have jurisdiction over the UK after Brexit. But historic rulings will carry the same weight as those our our Supreme Court - ie, they remain part of UK law until there is time and appetite to change them (err, perhaps never?!?)

A funny definition of "no idea" - among much uncertainty, this is one of the more certain issues.

if only the chief of the high court agreed with you thm
you obvs also didnt listen to the show I mentioned...

Let's get this straight we are leaving and it will be ****, i dont want to scrap Brexit. The opportunity for a large part of the UK population to be taught a life changing lesson on how the political class of this country operates can not be missed.

also THM surprised that youve bought into the Brexit BS that itll be simple....
as you should know law is dynamic and constantly evolving, EU law (like all law) is amended constantly and new precedents set to keep it relevant, we will we be cut n pasting future amendments?
Trade, immigration, knowledge sharing etc etc- ECJ is final arbiter
judges feel the gov is setting them up to be enemies of the people, when inevitably they have to agree with ECJ...

sounding as clueless as Owen Patterson tbh

he was proposing creating a whole new court to copy the ECJ

The opportunity for a large part of the UK population to be taught a life changing lesson on how the political class of this country operates can not be missed.

I've mentioned this before, earlier on this thread, but this is one of the main divisions in the present Tory party. The hard Brexiteers see this as a gold-plated opportunity to fulfil their Thatcherite wet dreams and take a torch to workers rights, and any constraints whatsoever on business doing what the hell it likes, unfettered by the state.

The less unhinged in the Tory party know that the country most definitely didn't vote for this. What it actually voted for a pack of lies about £350 million more per week for the NHS, less immigrants, less bendy bananas etc, etc).

So if they pursue this fundamentalist, ultra-neoliberal path of massive deregulation, NHS privatisation, and making the economy 'more competitive' (read: shredding workers rights, and turning the country into a tax haven), which looks increasingly likely given the people involved, then there will be hell to pay when people realise the true degree to which they've been conned when they voted to 'Take Back Control'.

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/06/tories-fresh-ideas-risk-electoral-obliteration-thatcherite-doctrine-nick-timothy ]Interestnig article my Matthew D'Ancona[/url] about present attitudes within the Tory Party. For it now looks like Brexit will purely come down to serving the interests of th Tory party, and to hell with the rest of us!

I love the idea that Mays government will release position papers on the main issues that need to be settled before talks on future relationships can be started in a few weeks. WTF have they been doing if they don't even have an idea what they want by now?

patterson & grieve had 2 very different positions earlier

at least we have the wisdom of strong & stable May + early GE Davis in control 😉

WTF have they been doing if they don't even have an idea what they want by now?

Bickering with each other, and jockeying for position for the upcoming leadership election, in the current power vacuum

Have there been any MPs that have turned remain since the referendum?
I've always assumed big business and the banks held the real power in this country but from what I see they are mainly pro eu.
Why are they suddenly being ignored?

500+ MPs are remainers

The opportunity for a large part of the UK population to be taught a life changing lesson on how the political class of this country operates can not be missed.

The repercussions will be felt long after they are all dead, unfortunately.
Part of the reason why I am not as pro-EU as most of STW is due to what will happen in the longer term, which has never really been discussed, but then I guess it's impossible to predict, so unsurprising.
I've tried to point out before that the EU is still a group of individual countries and not the harmonious collective that is generally referred to on here, with little success, but then it seems that no one wants to talk about that.
I'll be watching what happens in Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary et cetera with interest, it is very much proof that the EU is a political union heading towards a superstate, much to the contrary of what was stated at the beginning of this thread.

Why are they suddenly being ignored?

Because the lunatics have taken over the asylum. The hard right, totally hatstand, rabidly anti-EU tail of the Tory party is now wagging the predominantly moderate, pro EU, pro business dog.

And on the benches opposite all the predominantly pro EU MP's are similarly being 'led' by a very anti-EU faction. Who are now emboldened by a less-than-ctastrophic election result, and also touting the 'Will of the People' line. So there's no refuge there either

Basically, we're all ****ed!

I've tried to point out before that the EU is still a group of individual countries and not the harmonious collective that is generally referred to on here, with little success, but then it seems that no one wants to talk about that.
I'll be watching what happens in Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary et cetera with interest, it is very much proof that the EU is a political union heading towards a superstate, much to the contrary of what was stated at the beginning of this thread.

please some evidence of this?

I think everyone is aware that the EU is made up of different countries, fortunately cooperation is beneficial to everyone!

Kimbers - you are correct it is very dynamic and will change between now and Brexshit

Hence like the rest of us Neuberger is living with uncertainty. The Gov has published one position paper on the future role of the ECJ last month - the main ambiguity seems to be at which point will the ECJ jurisdiction will end and if Gove's reaction is to be believed, whether the ECJ will in fact still have some role after all (ie, not a total break) - hardly scope for froth and panic.

Back in Jan, May laid out a clear argument that there would be a clean break. Like most things, I would expect this to be subject to seem negotiation and possible compromise. We have seen some softening already, hence Neugerger's comments on still needing 100% clarity. Nothing more, nothing less.

Welcome to the world we live in.....mine's a skinny latte please

[of course as always, Neuberger's comments are more nuanced and less contraversial than the headlines would suggest. Quelle surprise!]

Binners if you were correct, Hammond would be toast by now!

Still he seems to be setting the agenda more than the nutters

Hurty - I thought the whole point is that NOBODY is setting the agenda. Because there is no agenda.

May is completely powerless. The Tory party is totally rudderless. Just policy paralysis. And in this vacuum it's just the more extreme factions shouting at each other and making it up as they go along, to be contradicted by the other lot the very next day. While anyone with any sense looks on aghast while keeping their heads down

All this while the country drifts towards the cliff edge. The totally disconnected, vainglorious self-indulgence of this bunch of cretins absolutely beggers belief. We've been reduced to an international laughing stock, while they all play their silly little schoolboy parlour games.

It's an absolute tragedy!

But, as usual, the people bringing about this tragedy will walk away from the wreckage unscathed (like Dave - presently globe-trotting at 100 grand a speech!), insulated as they are by the wealth and power, leaving the rest of us to pick up the tab

Same old, same old....

With the general lack of drive and movement in the UK's negotiating position, the lack of a rudder in the regime current in power is not particularly meaningful either way. Rudders only work when you're moving.

Reality versus rhetoric binners - you decide

There is an argument made on STW that we are all sheep led by the media. I challenged Cougar on this over the weekend. However, this thread suggest that he was correct and I was wrong. I have indeed given people too much credit to make their own informed decisions.

Posting newspaper headlines adds little value. All we get is a distorted tag line on the same piece of news. Yes we all know that there are the

Rabid loonies - obvious
Slightly less rabid loonies - the Brexshit Bugle having transitioned from above recently
The slightly less rabid moaners - FT, poss Indy
Moderately rabid remoaners - Guardian
Off the scale looney remainer - Gideon's Gobshite

Most of the above make fine froth

Where's the Times?

And are you suggesting nobody walks the centre ground?

Incidentally plenty of pro-Brexit pieces in the Guardian. They are a little conflicted, as are many broad church organisations.

Having said the above Martin Sandbu's analysis in today's FT is worth reading

Not sure IGM. Long time since I read it for two reasons

1. Murdoch
2 I am not clever enough to do their cryptic crossword.

What do you reckon?

Headlines - no
Text - possibly but with remain tilt. See ^

I have indeed given people too much credit to make their own informed decisions.

God you love to patronise us its almost as much as you like to tell us you are not right wing.
Cannot wait to see how you address us now you hold us and our abilities in less regard 😯

Are we really worthy of your efforts to help us ?

So if they pursue this fundamentalist, ultra-neoliberal path of massive deregulation, NHS privatisation, and making the economy 'more competitive' (read: shredding workers rights, and turning the country into a tax haven), which looks increasingly likely given the people involved

One of the little if ever pointed out possibilities in that scenario is that if the UK sets up as a low tax, no worker rights and poor environmental protection island to compete against EU businesses, is that the EU do not have to accept that trade under wto rules, they can if they want raise tariffs beyond the wto guidelines, on individual products and services or en mass, if they feel UK policy is damaging their industry and services.

As I said a couple of pages back, if all those who voted Leave surrendered their tax free personal allowance for a year, The Treasury would be able to cover the touted £36bn plus a few ad hoc expenses.

Maybe that's the way forward?

Careful MSP! You're drifting into 'Enemy of the People' territory there

We've 'Taken Back Control' you fool!. So what happens now is we issue our demands and Jonny Foreigner is just going to have to bally well live with it!

Once tariffs hit inflation and real wages it would be funny to see how stealy the politician's resolve would be!!

The tories will prevail though as we now have a real live enemy to blame for everything.
Plus none of the tories wanted to leave they were merely obeying the will of the people.

please some evidence of this?

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/eu-referendum-are-you-in-or-out

🙂

Fill yer boots

The EU is constantly referred to in the context of one single unified political body, versus the UK. Surprised you haven't noticed.
Perhaps I'm more aware of the differences and individuality of the member states having family from several different ones.

ETA: As one example, people routinely referring to us trading with the EU.
We don't.

Big business is being currently ignored due to the government not being able to go against the will of the people, the CBI and a whole range of Banks and Manufacturing are looking at this and wondering just what the hell to do. People who voted leave in many cases simply do not understand the global business food chain and wholly expect 10 years down the line that Nissan etc will still be here? Automation and technology shift (electric cars etc) will completely remove employment for low skilled and poorly educated people- Brexit will compound this. We are not in a brave new world of opportunity (this is not the industrial revolution 2.0) we are in a world of diminishing opportunity with a workforce of poorly skilled people who literally have no future. I work in many businesses each week public and private sector they are all investing or looking at how to automate their business- anyone in the technology space will do well over the next 25 years if you drive a van your ******

It's the biggest Irony of the lot, isn't it? That the people who are about to be steam-rollered by the fallout from Brexit are the very people who voted for it? As a kick against globalisation. An anti-establishment vote, to try all roll it all back, and take us back to some mythical 1950s heydey of Grand Brittania.

In reality, it's just going to massively accelerate the decline, as companies look to build their hi-tec plant in countries that aren't so delusional and insular, and constantly gazing back to some mythical golden age

Baaa, Baaa 😉

Britain needs to get back into slave trading and drug running. Those imperial dreams won't build themselves now, get that opium sold.

If only this had been around b4 the ref

must admit it is frustrating seeing MPs get a round of applause on QT or go unchallenged on TV interviews when you know they are bullshitting

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/08/fake-news-full-fact-software-immune-system-journalism-soros-omidyar

As a kick against globalisation. An anti-establishment vote, to try all roll it all back, and take us back to some mythical 1950s heydey of Grand Brittanica

Is that momentum or Brexshit binners?

Bexiteers and Momentumeers one and the same....

Never mind most folks on this forum will prosper or at worst tread water (and pedals) into the sun drenched 2050s...

It's a sad irony that Jezzas far left are facilitating the most right wing lunacy ever carried out, by their misguided 70's view that the EU is an evil capitalist conspiracy.

I think they may be in for a bit of a rude awakening as to the true meaning of an evil capitalist conspiracy

The realisation will come far far too late obviously.

It's madness that the Labour Party has chosen this subject as the one where they ignore the unions, in the same way as the Tory's have decided this is when they choose to ignore the (more moderate) voice of business

The whole thing is insanity. But it's equal insanity from both sides

What makes you think the left see the EU as an evil capitalist conspiracy? A conspiracy is a secret plot, the EU is overtly capitalist, it's a capitalist organisation in it's essence. The left by nature are anti capitalist, so in what way is that misguided. In what way is opposing something that is overtly against the ideologies you have misguided, just because you don't agree with them?

Why is it misguided? Because the capitalist model the Tories have in mind post-Brexit will make the EU look like Venezuela (pre-recent entirely forgivable unpleasantness, obvs)

But then, I suppose if your political opinions haven't shifted since 1973.....?

Is there a hint of exaggeration there Binns?

I did see some RFPs to build some private sector workhouses recently so perhaps you are correct....

Like I said earlier, if Jezza thinks that Brexit will herald in some 70's style vision of re-nationalised industry and collectivism, then he's the most deluded man in the country.

Faced with the choice of capitalism, German style, or the full on turbo-charged American model, as a socialist you'd opt for the Trump model, obviously

they key point there is if he thinks this

The brief hiatus of your joy post election seems to have morphed back to outraged of the North once more 😛

I dont support his position on Brexit but I dont think he thinks that leaving it heralds a new dawn of a socialist utopia either

the capitalist model the Tories have in mind post-Brexit will make the EU look like Venezuela

Why do you keep going on about the 70s? Corbyn wants a social democracy, what's so inherently 70s about that? He believes the EU is a barrier to social democracy due to it's neo-liberal, free market outlook. It is against state intervention that interferes with competition.

Cranking up the hyperbole adds nothing to your argument.

Everything's relative

Is the EU not a social democracy then?

Careful what you wish for

It is against state intervention that interferes with competition.

How very dare they?

The Euro has been a very effective weapon for increasing inequality, killing jobs and wages and destroying the lievihoods of many of EU's young so you can see why old Jexzza might not be a fan

From Webster

social democracy: a political movement that uses principles of democracy to change a capitalist country to a socialist one

So no, EU is not a social democracy.

I'd say Germany is as close to the model of a social democracy as your ever going to get in our globalised economy.

And Hurty.... you cheeky wee scamp..... you're the one who's always telling us the EU and the Euro are not the same thing 😀

I know this because I've always agreed with you. The EU is a great idea. The Euro is abject stupidity that flies in the face of all the laws of economics

For balance

Social democracy is a political, social and economic ideology that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice [b]within the framework of a capitalist economy, [/b]as well as a policy regime involving a commitment to representative democracy, measures for income redistribution, and regulation of the economy in the general interest and welfare state provisions.[1][2][3] Social democracy thus aims to create the conditions for capitalism to lead to greater democratic, egalitarian and solidaristic outcomes; and is often associated with the set of socioeconomic policies that became prominent in Northern and Western Europe—particularly the Nordic model in the Nordic countries—during the latter half of the 20th century.

So yes, could easily be considered one - at least before the euro screwed all those nice objectives up of course.

True, Binns just adding a bit of colour 😉 and testing the water levels 😀

Apart from the measures for income redistribution bit. The EU only aims to redistribute income to the capitalist classes.

It may be semantics but Corbyn is more of a democratic socialist than a social democrat.

Part of the Treaty of Rome?

I think that Webster's definition is a little American.

They also equate liberal and communist in parts of the US - don't trust them with political definitions, or at least not ones that make sense in this country.

And Binners, THM and me all agreeing on the EU and Euro - I think we've found our En Marche! 😉

THMacron?

I'm not sure what political definitions make sense on this country if people seriously think the EU is a social democracy.

Can I be first lady?

Is there a a minister for pasties?

Think i might knock up a couple of sweat shops or maybe a Mill or Pit - its a Tory wet dream getting the poor back in the yoke.

More like 1850 than 1950

Binners
I
would say the low countries and Scandinavia are rather good examples of social democracies. A social democracy is a broad church from right of centre to left of centre

A good job we'll be having nothing to do with those losers either then, eh?

Time to turbo-charge the anglo-Saxon model of capitalism instead, and Make Britain Great Again

[img] [/img]

It's a sad irony that Jezzas far left are facilitating the most right wing lunacy ever carried out, by their misguided 70's view that the EU is an evil capitalist conspiracy.

Maybe they just remember how the kind and fluffy EU reacted when the Greeks had the effrontery to elect a left government and on top of that had the damned cheek to suggest that the Euro club was not being run for the benefit of all its members!!

the laws of economics

Economics has laws? Who knew?

There's some selective cause and effect going on there?

So the Greek crisis was all down to those nasty Germans, and nothing whatsoever to do with successive Greek governments cooking the books to join the Euro in the first place, borrowing shedloads of money they knew they couldn't possibly repay, and the population all deciding that they were entitled to a highly paid public sector job, but they wouldn't be paying any tax?

Oh ... ok then.

Bloody Germans! The Bastards!

You're right... we're best off out of it, and we should be showing more solidarity with our left wing Greek brothers, as they fight the evil capitalist conspiracy that is the EU!

[img] [/img]