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I am not suggesting looking at things in isolation - that is exactly where the Austerity misunderstanding comes from ie, if you look at specific areas in isolation you could conclude that austerity is a reality - and in the personal context that is perfectly understandable - when in the broader contest it is/was a myth. There has been no austerity at the aggregate level, on the contrary we have continued to spend more than we receive (we = the state)
For many people including Scottish (G)Nats the economy is a side show anyway - it's about sovereignty and this mythical goal of taking back control. Note that jambas was happy to accept ST economic pain for wider goals.
FWIW! I doubt very much that the final solution will resemble what the hard Brexshiteers want - both sides are too sensible for that as its a lose:lose
Option C - focus on the day job.
Off you trot then… your contributions since your return have been utterly pointless. So much effort going into telling others not to call for a change from the damaging course we all can see we are currently on.
Try finding a Brexit Mandate with that message then when presented with a final deal that will probably not deliver what the brexit lot wanted, not satisfy the remaining majority or deliver stability for the UK what should be done?
There is no form of exit from the EU that will have more support from the British public than remaining in the EU. This has been clear for years. Current Leave support is such a broad church that it'll shatter in contact with any real deal, hence the need to keep the will of the people the hell away from the process. Hence an early GE well away from the crunch point of actually knowing how we will or will have left. Hence the idea of another referendum, once the form of exit is clear, being labelled undemocratic.
There is no form of exit from the EU that will have more support from the British public than remaining in the EU.
And you claim that my posts are pointless!!! 😯 or should that be 😀
The point being that Brexit is a minority belief. You can't dress the GE result as Brexit support as much as DT winning the popular vote. The reality is biting and people don't like it, more turmoil, more pain and no certainty of staying or leaving.
It may be a minority view, but sadly, it was still bigger than our remain one. The inconvenient fact.
As was the fact that the two main parties who received the highest percentage of the GE vote were both clear that they were supporting Brexshit, however much they have reservations at the personal level. Small thing called democracy apparently - another inconvenient fact.
What a bummer....
thm I thought you were going for option c
Yeah, you seem resigned to go with whatever shit happens, well done for that.
It's terribly British, like going to parties with people you hate because you couldn't say no, buying people you hate Christmas presents and pretending to like everyone at work.
the context was now, it is NOW a minority belief, if asked again the answer would be remain and given the situation & prospects have one trajectory then I fully expect support to mirror Trumps approvals.
It was perhaps democracy to trigger A50, it would be suicide to condemn at least a generation to pain and poverty to simply honour a non legally binding referendum.
Remember all those schools and hospitals who's funding will be cut to rewrite legislation and to send Dr Fox off hunting 2p worth of bilateral trade.
I am but waiting for databases to update !!
On the contrary - getting on with things is simply better than wasting time on the past. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best. Better than placards and demos that will achieve nothing.
Most of us are [b]preparing[/b] for Brexit, and [b]hoping[/b] it can be stopped (or reversed).
What are you hoping for THM?
Look, we get that you obviously don't think brexit is bad enough to be worth objecting to. Some of us think it is. Objecting to us objecting to it seems particularly pointless, because you haven't presented any plausible arguments why we are wrong.
I think he is going to put them on his placards.
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Why are you suddenly interested in pointless opinions?
But FWIW, a classic EU fudge with a ten year transition period ie, lots of noise but very little real impact. (At that point and only then, we will know what the EU will look like and whether we want to be part of EUiv). Hence getting on with the day job. Talking of which....
It's becoming increasingly obvious that there's a gulf between the Brexit promised by the hard right Brexiteers back in 2016 and what we're looking at now. It's a relief to see the tone from the government and press changing from shrill jingoism to something approaching realpolitik.
I suspect that the editorship of the News International papers, Telegraph, Mail and Express have realised that the window of opportunity for hard Brexit, with the bonfire of regulations and hollowing out of the state has passed and has proved divisive and unpopular.
Brexshit is bad for the economy, we agree, but that has not stopped people deciding that this is what they prefer. Appreciate its a weird choice, but there you go.....
Ah, the "reluctant" brexiter.
They wanted to activate article 50 the morning after the vote because they knew they had a time limit on getting what they wanted, a year on has already demonstrated this, and a long transitional arrangement will completely kill brexit.
Bring it on.
@teamhurtmore see @kelvin's post I told you where wasting your time 😉 STW political posters prefer to exist in their own vacuum.
At least the outgoing EU President gets the joke, the EU mishandled the Cameron negotiations taking a punt that Leave couldn't win and even in that case that the UK would stay in
[b]“Our presidency had also to deal with Brexit. This disastrous creature which all of us should have seen coming but none of us acted to stop,” he told an audience including European Commission President Jean-Claude Junker[/b]
Intersting piece from ex Irish Ambassador in his new book, in his view Ireland needs to understand / acknowledge it's interests are not at all aligned with the EU over Brexit
even Cummings is carefully admitting brexits gonna be a mistake
though hes obviously blaming the current tory government for messing it all up
the electorate wont forget the lies that took them here
@tmh Brexit will be very positive for the economy unshackling us from the economic catastrophe which is the EU and allowing us (indeed forcing us in some cases) to re-double our focus more globally, to concentrate on where the growth and opportunity is.
Saw that Kimbers, Cummings seems to believe in the theory called "creative destruction", knock over an ants nest and see if it will be re-made better.
He obviously thinks he's a genius...but the machinations of a certain political party means he is sitting in the corner of the classroom wearing a coned hat with the letter D written on it.
But it is a timely reminder to all of us that these people are prepared to burn the house down with little or no consideration as to who is in it at that moment.
After Brexit: Will Ireland be next to exit ?
https://policyexchange.org.uk/publication/after-brexit-will-ireland-be-next-to-exit/
Written by an ex-Irish Ambassador to the UK
Ireland is most exposed economically to the UK of the EU 27. Putting all it's eggs in the EU basket with respect to Brexit negotiations is a mistake argues the author
Just hitting paste on the brexit propaganda again Jamby, let's just give up the eu. Honestly take a good look at what your writing, does it actually make sense to you that we can suddenly magic up trade we forgot to look at?
Honestly take a good look at what your writing, does it actually make sense to you that we can suddenly magic up trade we forgot to look at?
Desperation.
jambalaya - Member
@teamhurtmore see @kelvin's post I told you where wasting your time STW political posters prefer to exist in their own vacuum.
Indeed. And Jamba (150, make that 75) are a case in point.
The wind has changed, but I think you're still in the denial stage (good company though - Mrs Weak & Wibbly is with you there)
Perhaps you could link something to back up what you say Bobby McDonagh (ex ambassador to the UK) says, Jambalaya. He states that Ireland is much more EU positive than Britain [url= https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/brexiteers-only-want-to-be-masters-of-their-own-little-world-1.3128308 ]here[/url] and sees the future of Ireland as European.
Edit: thanks for the link. Ray Basset then rather than Bobby. Just for a minute I thought you'd found a big name Irish politician in favour of Irexit. But no.
Seeing the strong & stable government, society & economy Brexit is inflicting on the UK
No other country is gonna be stupid enough to take the path of glorious isolationism we are embracing
Nah that's just the eu punishment beatings.
jambalaya - Member
@tmh Brexit will be very positive for the economy unshackling us from the economic catastrophe which is the EU and allowing us (indeed forcing us in some cases) to re-double our focus more globally, to concentrate on where the growth and opportunity is.
The EU growing faster than the UK...
People like you are responsible for wrecking our country. IMHO of course.
So i wonder what the Governments opinion is?
And not just non-UK citizens. Anyone who can mrmo
After a year of preparation our government has come to this.
[url= https://www.ft.com/content/46926410-5ffb-11e7-91a7-502f7ee26895 ]FT Brexit negotiations turf war[/url]
all that FT article points too, is that politicians have to be held personally accountable to their actions. Cameron and Osbourne have walked away fortunes intact yet they are responsible for the mess and will never have to suffer for it.
The article shows there is a split between Davis's department and the treasury. Surely that should have been sorted out before beginning negotiations. You're right about Cameron and Osborne though.
Surely that should have been sorted out before beginning negotiations.
I think you are describing some sort of plan
something that no brexiter in government or the electorate seems to have a grasp of
Cameron and Osbourne have walked away fortunes intact yet they are responsible
Cameron and Osborne voted to leave ????
Well I never. That's a turn up. I had them down as remainers. Just goes to show you can't trust folk these days.
Cameron and Osborne voted to leave ????
Why was the referendum called in the first place? For the greater good or for the benifit of the Tory party, Who was it who is responsible for a situation where 52/48 is sufficient rather than 2/3rds or some other supermajority that is fairly normal when dealing with major constitutional changes.
And who was it who coined the term austerity that has starved so much of the UK or money?
I would go much further and say that anyone negotiating with the EU on behalf of the UK ought to forfeit any future salary, pension and any redundancy monies to a hardship fund for those who'll no doubt be worse off post-Brexit. That same rule should be applied to the fanatical newspaper editors and owners who bollocked on about hair driers (name me a newspaper owner who requires one of these?) and light bulbs.
It'll make the negotiations more honest at the very least.
Cracks me up...
Brexiteers now trying to shut down any discussion by urging us to "Get over it" etc....
Weak.
You're position must be poor when the best you can come up with it is that...
In much the same way that I despise those who lie to support their position, I have little regard for those who attempted shut down discussion when discussion holds their opinion up to the plain light of day to be examined.
What are you afraid of??
Why? You would end up with an even worse set of negotiators.
I would prefer the very best, so can't pay peanuts.....
Mrmo, yes who ever coined the phrase austerity never imagined that it would be abused so royally on a daily basis. The decade's biggest misnomer?
Edit: it's perfectly clear who/which side is trying to suppress discussion. Time for a re-aim perhaps ?!?
Performance related pay for the government based on the economy and mean/median/modal earnings?
Edit: it's perfectly clear who/which side is trying to suppress discussion. Time for a re-aim perhaps ?!?
Is it? Is the really?
One side is saying 2 shades of F all about their plans...
The other side want to know what they are...
Really very simple, but urging folks to "get over it..." really does sound like trying to shut down a discussion. You must admit that..
Yes really.
Get over it, refers to the vote and the result. It's not going to change however much froth is generated. So you have to get over it - get past denial - so that you can do something useful. Simple.
I'm sorry, you can try & shut down the discussion but it's not going to happen.
Can't you see that discussion over Brexit is exactly what's going to keep Westminster, whoever that is, honest (!) over Brexit.
Willingly towing the line might be for you & others, but it's not for me & it's not others.
We aren't in denial, we just see a gov with no clear idea on how to proceed & the best way to to get the best deal we can is to harangue them all the way.
Brexit may or may not happen - I am ambivalent as I believe it it probably will.
I do, however, encourage those who feel more strongly to continue to push their POV as open discussion is a necessity in any democracy.
I will also deride & expose anyone who chooses to push lies as fact - on either side.
The lack of honesty & the standard of debate during this whole debacle has been fing shameful.
THM - there is no denial of the vote, but it's ancient history now. Things move on and we now need to decide what we as a country are going to do.
For me, I want single market and freedom of movement - grants to Cornwall and farmers I can do without.
Others think differently.
Hence there needs to be a debate.
Yes there was a vote, the Brexies need to get over it.
The standard of debate has been awful agreed - almost as bad as the Scottish referendum, perhaps on a par withnit? But that won't change the decision and is a bit harsh even on Bojo.
Very few people have any idea of what cones next - no one has done this before AND it's a lose: lose - so one can only be realistic. This is where history is your friend, since the EU has a track record of fudging tough decisions. They know that they face losses in this too despite some of the rhetoric. Just look at Barmier and Merkel, one a Neo-fudger, the other the past master. The same will happen again. Why? Because that is in everyone's best interests and common sense generally prevails in the long run, even when politicians get involved.
THM - I have no fears on the ability of the EU to fudge. Unfortunately there are some Brexit as a religion types in the Westminster government and they need a fire lit under them - figuratively at least.
so that you can do something useful
Yup, sabotage anything and anyone openly pro-Brexit. Hassle your MP, get out on the streets. Two million protested against the Iraq war so it's possible.
all that FT article points too, is that politicians have to be held personally accountable to their actions. Cameron and Osbourne have walked away fortunes intact yet they are responsible for the mess and will never have to suffer for it.
Do this and you'll have an even worse talent deficit than at present!
Do this and you'll have an even worse talent deficit than at present!
Reward them if they do well and penalise them if they do badly.
Two million protested against the Iraq war so it's possible.
possibly not the best example. just sayin.
no, THM, just going meekly will not do. get over it? i am over it. the vote was catastrophic [i]if taken as other than [b]advisory[/b] [/i]. it doesn't need to be gospel, and it doesn't need to be 'hard brexit' or nought. it doesn't [i]have[/i] to be brexit at all.
I am over it....it doesn't have to be Brexshit at all
Over what?
😐
Im currently thinking of Brexit of that court case in Bleak House that just generates work for the lawyers for a generation or more and pretty much drains the life out of everything else for nowt.
anyone fancy a pint? I know its 7 am but what the hell.
[b]Ridiculous. Really Ridiculous.[/b]
That's the view of the European Parliament by none other than Jean-Claude Junker himself 🙂 Astonishing outburst which he repeated in French and English after just 30 MEPs turned up to listen to the final speech of the outgoing EU President from Malta. I suppose that's what happens when you go off message and point out that Brexit was very avoidable had the EU chosen to open its eyes and ears.
@Del 85% of voters in the GE voted for parties that support "hard" Brexit namely no freedom of movement, thus no single market and no customs union membership. Thats 594 / 650 MPs. Thats a Pro Brexit landslide.
Why was the referendum called in the first place?
To settle a question which had been rumbling on in the country for decades. The Referendum showed quite clearly Brexit was a cross party issue with very strong support amongst the working class who felt most threatened by freedom of movement.
Get over it, refers to the vote and the result.
To base such a huge decision on a 52/48 vote is ludicrous. What that vote demonstrated is clear division. You accept the will of the 52 and you still have that same clear division. This result should have led to a period of debate and honest discussion on both sides of the pros and cons of membership, not a kneejerk reaction.
85% of voters in the GE voted for parties that support "hard" Brexit namely no freedom of movement, thus no single market and no customs union membership. Thats 594 / 650 MPs. Thats a Pro Brexit landslide.
Can anyone hear a scratched record?
court case in Bleak House
Jarndyce v Jarndyce - quite apt
Jarndyce and Jarndyce drones on. This scarecrow of a suit has, over the course of time, become so complicated, that no man alive knows what it means. The parties to it understand it least; but it has been observed that no two Chancery lawyers can talk about it for five minutes, without coming to a total disagreement as to all the premises. Innumerable children have been born into the cause; innumerable young people have married into it; innumerable old people have died out of it. Scores of persons have deliriously found themselves made parties in Jarndyce and Jarndyce, without knowing how or why; whole families have inherited legendary hatreds with the suit. The little plaintiff or defendant, who was promised a new rocking-horse when Jarndyce and Jarndyce should be settled, has grown up, possessed himself of a real horse, and trotted away into the other world. Fair wards of court have faded into mothers and grandmothers; a long procession of Chancellors has come in and gone out.
Jamba - still in your bubble I see. Denying the fact that Britain is turning against Brexit, and will continue to do so as the impact on pockets is felt, won't help you. The Brexies need to offer real solutions to people or they are doomed.
IMO though you are looking more like part of the past than part of the future. The wind changed and you failed to change with it.
At as for ridiculous MEPs, look at British MEPs attendance record - one can only agree it has been ridiculous.
[quote=jambalaya ]Ridiculous. Really Ridiculous.
That's the view of the European Parliament by none other than Jean-Claude Junker himself Astonishing outburst which he repeated in French and English after just 30 MEPs turned up to listen to the final speech of the outgoing EU President from Malta. I suppose that's what happens when you go off message and point out that Brexit was very avoidable had the EU chosen to open its eyes and ears.
Even by your standards this is desperate stuff.
Every parliament around the world will have debates with very few members present. This is not something exclusive to the EU.
Keep trying though. You'll get marks for effort at least.
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It's the continued lies of the Brexiters to the electorate post ref that are the problem
Davis saying we could keep ema & eba, knowing they were leaving ecj ( now saying it's May's fault for ruling out ecj)
Saying they will not use EU/Brit immigrants as pawns, then doing just that.
Saying that there won't be a hard border in NI then quitting customs union, not to mention what the DUP dirty bribe means for the GFA
Hunt originally saying leaving EMA didn't matter (presumably someone has now explained how medicines are a approved) is now saying that we will recreate the ema testing regimes for drug companies in the UK and copy the EU law into our law- how much will that cost??? (Not to mention the huge assumption that both sets of trials will have identical results,-even very minor differences make this a big potential headache) If the drug companies have to pay twice to have a drug certified, prices will skyrocket, unless the gov foots the bill, what's a few extra million?, billion? On the Brexit tab
Jambs was linking to an academic (Oxford?) study many pages back that said Brexit would cost between 4%(soft) and 10%(hard) of GDP over 10 years.
Looks to me like we are heading definitely aiming for the 10% loss.
Not to mention that the real reason the brexies scraped their victory was a kickback against inequality & austerity, brexshit only makes those things worse!
As this becomes ever clearer how sustainable is the great brexiflounce?
As this becomes ever clearer how sustainable is the great brexiflounce?
I think it will take years to become clearer to most people. i.e. after we have left. The leavers seem just as confused as they were a year ago and haven't managed to put 2 and 2 together yet.
Note to THM - austerity. The government might not have been practising austerity, but a government failure to get the economy to put money in people's pockets meant a lot of folk were experiencing austerity. So I agree with your comments in so far as they go on austerity but they need to look at effect as well as cause.
eurozone economy grew by an “impressive” 0.7% in the second quarter of this year.
Good thing we're not going to be held back by them in the future.
What's our growth rate again?
not just about flagging economy brexit ref got out people who dont normally vote, especially those most affected by 'austerity*'
it was 2 fingers to the elites for treating their quality of life as columns on a cost saving spreadsheet
*austerity in this case means idealogical dismantling of government providing for the community eg, decades of council house sell off/ failure tto replace stock and associated private landlord rip-offs, sure start centre, youth club, swimming pool, library closures, social care destruction, decimation of council funding, cutting benefit sanction becoming mastabatory aides for right-wingers and food bank dependency being their own fault etc etc
Jam - the idea that since 85% of people voted Labour or Tory then 85% of people want hard Brexit is absoultely ludicrous. I don't want any Brexit. But I voted Labour. I am not alone in this.
Note to THM - austerity. The government might not have been practising austerity, but a government failure to get the economy to put money in people's pockets meant a lot of folk were experiencing austerity.
Deliberate or note, this is still confusing separate issues.
Plus you give far too much credit to the government - not least because they do not set wages outside the public sector. There is no doubt that there has been pressure on wages in REAL terms especially in the public sector. With inflation rising this pressure has increased since the Brexshit vote. But there are separate causes and effects here, not least our appalling productivity record.
So I agree with your comments in so far as they go on austerity but they need to look at effect as well as cause.
As above. Real wage growth is an issue - and a very real one for the BoE RIGHT NOW - so I would agree a proper assessment of causes and effects is needed. To link this directly to Brexit or frankly to any political party is a major stretch.
Sorry kimbers: redefining austerity as a catch all for a list iof gripes doesn't help anyone. Merely confuses the root issues.
not least our appalling productivity record.
something that brexshit will only exacerbate, the loss of the EIB and especialliy EU science funding means that our record low R&D investment will tumble further
cant see the government taking up the slack as the cut to the GDP from brexshit means they will have less cash to invest
the other productivity weakspot is our education system, despite a Gove edition KJ Bible for all schools we are still falling down the rankings in
english & maths and scince is about to take a big brexit hit..technical education- apprenticeships just dont exist salary free internships at best, university now leaves the poorest with 57k of debt!!
THM calling it a 'list of gripes' is exactly the problem- those gripes are destroying peoples life chances and theyve all been done in the name of austerity, theres also a neat feedback there into our low productivity
To link this directly to Brexit or frankly to any political party is a major stretch.
Not really IMO, voters tend to use whatever limited means they can. Look at local elections for this.
UK politics are basically dysfunctional and until FPTP is addressed you are always going to have large sections of the electorate disenfranchised. For many Brexit was as much about giving the establishment a kicking as it was about the EU.
One of the reasons there should never have been a referendum is because the question being answered by many was not the question that they were asked to answer.
@molgrips you voted for the manifesto (see the other thread where I quoted from it). Corbyn sacked the Shadow Cabinet members who voted to Umana's "non-Brexit" amendment. Labour put that in their manifesto to avoid losing seats, it shored up their vote. They get the message, enough of their voters want out for them to back Brexit.
Every Parliamentary vote there has been has carried the Brexit legislation. The importamt stuff has been carried by a landslide.
@mike Westminster may be empty frequently but the Prime Minister doesn't call it "Really Ridiculous" as a result. Indicative of pompous disdain Junker holds the elected chamber in.
Like millions of others I voted labour against Mays hard brexit
she asked for a mandate and a stronger hand in brexit
even the bitter oldie brexit true belivers deserted her
she got humiliated and had to run to the DUP, which is why shes a global laughing stock....
@molgrips you voted for the manifesto
You seem to be assuming (wrongly) that a vote for Labour was a vote for Brexit. The two are not linked.
I voted Labour as I want a Labour government over any of the other options. Labour are also the only party who have any chance of beating Conservatives so while I am a remainer I put voting for a party whose policies I agree with and have a chance of getting into power ahead of a wasted vote on a party whose policies I don't agree with but would be against brexit.
look everyone, jambs knows exactly why you voted how you did
fortunately Labour are sticking up for what I want
[url= https://www.ft.com/content/866057a4-60bf-11e7-91a7-502f7ee26895 ]Labour party calls on May to drop ECJ ‘red line’
Starmer seeks to retain access to key EU groups such as medicines agency[/url]
Jamba - please don't make yourself look foolish
THM - I don't think I disagree, except that government policy should affect the economy a little - and that affect wages.
Lets be clear the Referendum was legally advisory but both the main parties stood on a GE platform / manifesto accepting the result and both are committed to leaving the EU and frankly on the same basis (in my and many others opinion). The A50 trigger vote was passed my a landslide.
interesting use of the word trigger there jambs...
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well thats surprising considering the towering intellect of Leadsome
( I know someone who worked with her on a science advisory committee, he described her as the stupidest person in the room, at all times)
Mrs May had been planning to sack Mrs Leadsom, who pulled out of the leadership race a year ago after a controversial interview with The Times, had she won a landslide victory. [url= https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/andrea-leadsom-demanded-high-profile-role-as-price-of-demotion-9m90zhq3z ]Insiders said Mrs Leadsom had struggled to meet the complex challenge of preparing British farming and fishing for a future outside the EU.[/url]
even better she thought she could be home/foreign sec 😯
I think someones fallen for the trap of believing what she writes on her CV!
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@molgrips you voted for the manifesto
Parts of it, yes. Not all of it. We don't get to pick and choose though do we?
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/04/golden-visa-immigration-deal-british-citizenship-home-office ]Jamba's favoured immigration policy?[/url]
Officially called a “Tier 1 investor” visa in the UK, the scheme gives individuals residency in exchange for investing £2m in UK bonds or shares through a bank, with applicants eligible for indefinite leave to remain, and even full citizenship, after five years. That is, unless they can stump up more cash: those offering £5m can settle after three years, and those with £10m after just two.
The fact is the labour statements on brexit are every bit as incoherent and impossible as the tories. It hardly matters what the manifesto says when it's not possible. If the manifestos promised us unicorns we still wouldn't get them. Brexit was dead from the start, eventually enough people will realise it's a zombie idea and let it lie.