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Everything is still being negotiated so not sure why everything is looking into their own crystal ball ... 😛
Running commentaries ... ? 😆
Saw that reported on the BBC
I think it points to Davis' being waaay out of his depth as much as anything
He did hint a while back that he was planning to try and keep the very beneficial & prestigious institutions like eba, ema, etc
Maybot doesnt do logic it seems
And your average brexie pretty clueless about that sort of detail
@mrmo- Mmmmm, James Chapman said.. please tell me more about the great James Chapman. You delusional brexies will believe anyone 😉
Mmmmm, James Chapman said.. please tell me more about the great James Chapman.
Point made, we know what Brexies think of 'experts' its much easier to get your opinions from the express etc
I think this article pretty much sums up the somewhat ambiguous stance by The Labour Party on Brexit.
it is plainly obvious that Corbyn wants a hard brexit - he lapped up article 50 as soon as it was possible.
If he had wanted a soft brexit, or even a reversal of brexit, then he could have campaigned on it and would have easily got into number 10 - lots of his MPs would have been behind him, lots of the youth vote that were also enthused by the tuition fee cancellaton, and lots of the original brexit voters than have since figured out that they were being coerced with lies.
bleating about it going against the original democratic vote for brexit is BS as it was so close and there were so many untruths said in it.
Point made, we know what Brexies think of 'experts' its much easier to get your opinions from the express etc
😆 Struggling a bit there arncha 😆 You started so well with 'point made' then seemed to talk a load of shite like only a delusional brexie can.
I'm sorry but it's you quoting a daily mail/Georgie Osbourne chum/PR man.
Is he actually one of the experts? I'm not surprised people have had enough of them if so :o)
Turnerguy - Yes you're right to say that going against the referendum for democratic reasons was not the reason for Corbyn voting for Article 50, that was because he is a eurosceptic. As the article says, consistently voted and lobbied against the EU throughout his career.
I don't follow your logic that he would have increased Labour's votes if he'd campaigned on a soft brexit or brexit reversal ticket. Where would those votes have come from? Labour increased their votes by 9.5%, the 3 parties campaigning for soft/no brexit lost a combined 4.5% share of the vote, UKIP lost 10.8%. It doesn't take a massive leap of faith to assume that Labour's increased vote share came from former UKIP voters, primarily in the north and midlands. Ok, there were some progressive alliances in London which accounts for the drop in Green/LD votes but not enough to account for a 9.5% increase.
Is he actually one of the experts
I'll listen to the views of someone who's worked for dexu (even an ex DM journo!) especially when it makes sense considering a lot of the stuff Davis said re bodies dependent on ECJ jurisdiction.
The third moste dishonest MP and one of Brexhsit's biggest BSers on Marr now.
Hie did Gove ever get back -- he even smirks as he knowingly lies now. At least he used to keep a straight face. Now he just knows his full of ****
I thought we had to be polite to folk who knowingly BS as that is what you were telling us the other day - or is it we can be rude about everyone but your mate? or is t that its only bad when someone other than you does it?
FWIW i agree with you entirely about Gove but you know Jambys "facts" are just as "flawed" so at least understand why people treat him the same way.
Gove !
Yeah, I'm not gonna do that to myself on a pleasant sunny Sunday morning
Watching Run The Jewels Glasto set on iPlayer with the babies is far more pleasant
Enjoy Kimbers, off for a dark side ride - tough choice between golf, MTB or road!!!
New Survation poll (July 1st, 2017):
Leave: 46% (-3)
Remain: 54% (+3)
60% also want to keep EU citizenship and are willing to pay for it
cloudnine - Member
New Survation poll (July 1st, 2017):
Leave: 46% (-3)
Remain: 54% (+3)
but but but... democwasay... 😆
Yeah, don't get too excited yet. Not that clear to the man in the street what an utter bit of a mess this is going to be. It couldl take another 6-12 mo at least before it's really obvious.
Michel Barnier was on Europe 1 this morning. The man can talk the talk and has clear objectives. He's going to run rings around the Briexit crew.
THM - just think, if the Scots referendum had gone the other way part of the negotiations on independence would have been who got Gove.
Gary Lineker retweeted this which about sums it up - is GL aiming to be the English Macron ....
IGM based on much of the ^, if the S ref had gone the other way, it would have been ignored anyway on ten grounds it was based in the same BS as Brexshit. Isn't that how it's meant to work??
Actually, a trade of Gove v outstanding debt would have left rUK quids in 😉
Hot work out riding today - and there sets if tennis later. Time for an ice bath....
Michael is back 🙂
No access to our inshore waters from 6-12 miles. Warning shot imo to EU about the full 200 miles of territorial waters. Banks will move a few staff or sign a fronting (white labelling) agreement and carry on as normal. What are the Spanish and French going to do about 1000's of fishing boats and associated factories processing factories ?
As for opinion polls 85% of people voted for manifestos ending freedom of movemnet, membership of the single market and an exit of the customs union. Something like 594 MPs out of 650. Corbyn sacked the Shadow Cabinet members who voted for the (heavily defeated) "soft Brexit" amendments.
@Edukator no one, certainly not me, doubts the EU politicians can talk and get fabulously well paid for it. The EU wrote A50 to cut off all payments after 2 years as they assumed a net recipient would leave. They have been hoisted by their own pitard. Barnier is screwed, the EU are desperate for the money and Greece (and Italy) are going to haunt them all through A50. France is going to have plenty of strikes and civil unrest as Macron seeks to implement his austerity / budget cuts and changes to employment law. The EU should be focusing on the migrant crises and eurozone disaster, both are more pressing than Brexit.
Warning shot imo to EU
I'd imagine you found that quite engorging.
Michel Barnier was on Europe 1 this morning. The man can talk the talk and has clear objectives. He's going to run rings around the Briexit crew
The EU have spent the last 12 months patiently setting out their priorities and assessing the various potential outcomes, utilising their army of experienced diplomats & trade negotiators to the full.
The UK has spent the last 12 months watching its politicians stab each other in the back and make huge miscalculations- culminating in May losing her majority and desperately signing a pact with the most bigoted politicians in the UK, Davis, Johnson, May, Fox & Hammond all pulling in different directions, humiliatingly kissing trumps arse, the nation now even more divided, Davis incompetence and lack of a plan exposed regularly in front of the Brexit select committee, all led by a Prime Minister of empty soundbites, hated by the entire country, including her own party!, who's actually managed to make Cameron look competent....
I'm not sure that it could more one sided
l 200 miles of territorial waters.
which would infringe on the coast of France, Ireland, Belgium, Holland, Germany, Denmark and most probably Norway, how is that going to work?
Ooh let's all fire warning shots, frap frap frap hhhnnngggnnnngggggghhhhaaaarrrrggghhhhh
So it turns out we could address fisheries without leaving the EU Jamba. Well I never...
Brexit really is daft.
Wot these guys said
Ooh let's all fire warning shots, frap frap frap hhhnnngggnnnngggggghhhhaaaarrrrggghhhhh
And importantly, remember Iceland won the cod wars, and this was when the UK had a far bigger navy.
Also something to consider, why don't the Netherlands scrap the treaty of Utrecht. It is old and basically irrelevant to the modern world.... Who is going to complain??
A warning shot to the EU really is like ordering your mate out of the tent, farting like a champion and then sitting in it, defiantly.
Can we keep it polite please people. A premier subscription depends on it.
The windows have shattered and the ceiling has fallen in.
The Economist nails it again.
And importantly, remember Iceland won the cod wars, and this was when the UK had a far bigger navy.
They've got a museum exhibition on board one of the retired Icelandic coastguard ships to it in Reykjavik. Essentially the moral of the story is that cold, hard cash beats frap-tastic jingo-tasic Jamabalya-esque Nationalism.
The EU should be focusing on the migrant crises and eurozone disaster, both are more pressing than Brexit.
Quite. Lucky there isn't a rush for us to get a deal sorted and we didn't waste any time since delivering A50...
As for opinion polls 85% of people voted for manifestos ending freedom of movemnet, membership of the single market and an exit of the customs union. Something like 594 MPs out of 650. Corbyn sacked the Shadow Cabinet members who voted for the (heavily defeated) "soft Brexit" amendments.
and yet when asked specifically
cloudnine - Member
New Survation poll (July 1st, 2017):
Leave: 46% (-3)
Remain: 54% (+3)
Does that tell you that the GE was not a single issue election?
Election result was much more a tory out vote than anything else, probbaly because if Brexit is ineveitable the majority do not trust May, Gove, BoJo etc to handle anything without flouncing
Italy now have massive problem with illegal migrants ... 😯
Humanitarian problem? More like force entry into EU.
They are aggressive now that the floor gate has opened.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40470102 ]BBC News: Europe migrant crisis: Italy threatens to close ports as ministers meet[/url]
A combine [b]population of nearly 440 million[/b] ... how many millions do you want? 😯
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More cheery reading...
Nipper99 - Member
More cheery reading...
The article is trying to tell everyone to have a lifestyle change. i.e. not to live beyond own means. 😛
The article is trying to tell everyone to have a lifestyle change. i.e. not to live beyond own means.
Yep you are right, the good times are over.. We are heading to the american model, so bye bye workplace and health protection for any but the wealthiest. Perhaps we will go back to it being wonderful like in the 60s and 70s
[url= http://www.****/news/article-3271583/A-bleak-portrait-Dickensian-poverty-Glasgow-s-slums-1970s-Photos-families-living-one-room-without-running-water-electricity-rats-rubble-50-years-ago.html ]Poverty in Glasgow[/url]
[quote=jambalaya ]As for opinion polls 85% of people voted for manifestos ending freedom of movemnet, membership of the single market and an exit of the customs union.
150
cornholio98 - Member
The article is trying to tell everyone to have a lifestyle change. i.e. not to live beyond own means.Yep you are right, the good times are over.. We are heading to the american model, so bye bye workplace and health protection for any but the wealthiest. Perhaps we will go back to it being wonderful like in the 60s and 70s
Poverty in Glasgow
I doubt it happens so suddenly but rather it is an accumulation of years of opulence, by comparison to other countries UK is not poor put it this way.
Workplace H&S for the wealthiest? Are you saying UK will overnight turn into a 3rd world nation?
Poverty in Glasgow? How many Labour govts have they gone through? 🙄
Since the Norwegian fishermen have tariff-free access to the EU I imagine they are wetting themselves laughing at the Little Englanders' "warning shot".
Poverty in Glasgow? How many Labour govts have they gone through?
The point being, that's what it was like pre-EU - check the dates. We've done very nicely out of our EU membership.
I was born in 1971 in Glasgow and I don't really remember the slums. But I knew plenty who did and we don't want to start turning the clock back thank you.
Brexit will do nothing positive for this country that we couldn't have done while in the EU.
The debate smacks of "What did the EU ever do for use"?
"Well yes but apart from.........."
Since the Norwegian fishermen have tariff-free access to the EU I imagine they are wetting themselves laughing at the Little Englanders' "warning shot".
Actually, they don't.
2% on raw fish, 13% if processed (eg smoked).
One of the areas where Norway is worse off than our current status (although I except they might find it easier than us if our new status is worse than their current one).
for opinion polls 85% of people voted for manifestos ending freedom of movemnet, membership of the single market and an exit of the customs union. Something like 594 MPs out of 650. Corbyn sacked the Shadow Cabinet members who voted for the (heavily defeated) "soft Brexit" amendments.
We know all that already. Thanks. Most people in Britain oppose the approach on this matter proposed by the leaders of both main parties. And your point is? That our democracy is flawed? That there is a lack of politcial leadership that makes any sense economically and politically, and listens to the "will of the people?" The public are once gain ahead of the leaders of the parties on this… and there appears no way for their "will" to change our course. Tories will play some interesting power games at the top, and Labour will face rebellions at conference, but nothing that will pass the final say back to the people about accepting an exit deal, or mitigate/improve/soften our exit, er, plan.
Little Britain
Ken Clarke was on the radio earlier scoffing about 'absurd' demands for pay rises in the public sector and saying "it won't just be nurses that come out for a pay rise, they'll all be at it". He's a big fat guffawing twunt who has done very nicely out of his long-term lobbying arrangement with BAT.
But he did make one very acid point that indicates what is likely to happen next. He basically said real-time deflation of wages in the public sector was effectively a punishment for the Brexit vote.
That's what this Brexit nonsense is really going to result in - damage to the incomes of anyone but the mega-rich and a bonfire of employment legislation in the name of 'being competitive in the international arena'.
Idiotic result of an idiotic vote for an idiotic notion voted for by idiots. ****ing brilliant.
Aside; I've never noticed this before but Somalia looks like a prostrate massager
in the name of 'being competitive in the international arena'.
Which Britain won't be as Europe will make sure that Britain can't profit from fiscal and social dumping, the US is on its own protectionist trip, and there aren't many countries that will find trading with even a devalued Britain more attractive than continuing with their current trading partners.
Bonfire of employment legislation ???
Some folk really are finding it tough to get past the denial phase...what's this imaginary new will of the people. Boo...it's all gone away. Unlikely however, nice that might be. Two votes, one detect, the other indirect. Same result. Get over it....
That post does not make a lot of sense, thm, on several possible levels 🙂
Never mind....
Get over it....
Not gonna happen
the youth voted overwhelmingly to remain.
Their opinion hasn't changed, the way older remainers have, (according to the pollsters)
They won't forget how the oldies shafted them, everything bad will now be blamed on Brexit (and we all know that Brexit will be fairly shit for everyone), whether it's to blame or not, a generation will grow old knowing that the hard right of the Tories, the press and screwed them over to feed the egos of idiots like Gove, Johnson, Farage etc.
Brexit has divided the country for the next few decades and it hasn't even happened yet
Get over it....
Farage never did.
This is a fight for the future of the UK for those who are not fortunate to have portfolios of investments and rental properties, who have no meaningful pension provisions and are being faced with the prospect of more cuts, fees and pain because a bunch of older idiots dont want to lose face.
Get over it....
Why? What is to be gained by failing to call for sanity to return? Our current direction is foolhardy in the extreme.
Good grief mike.....and we thought it was Brexshiteers who were prone to exaggeration!
Kimbers, if everything that is bad is now blamed on Brexshit then it merely proves the point about how silly the whole debate has become. QED.
Really?
The EU has protections for people, what will be bundled into the great repeal bill?
What will the government choose to sacrifice for the economic growth it really needs?
How can a UK that is not performing address pension black holes?
How can the UK push for affordable housing etc.
How you you prevent things like longer hours, less statutory benifits etc.
If you have a house paid for you won't mind interest rate hikes, if you have rental properties it's probably a bonus.
If you have decent pension pot then you have an income later in life, how would you fare with a 1% employer contribution and no disposable income?
Care to explain why any of that is actual exageration? There are millions of people who will be either in negative equity and arrears with an interest rate rise, more who at this point will never own property, will never save enough for retirement and have to pay for more over their life times.
Perhaps that is what is being missed. Suggesting people "Get over it" is fairly patronising isn't it. As said nobody at UKIP thought like that, the swival eyed loons on the right of the tory party didn't give up trying to screw it all up.
Remember the demographics, those who support Brexit the most have the shortest time to endure the consequences, those who have the next 50-70 years to live under it might be the people to look to.
Two votes, one detect, the other indirect. Same result. Get over it....
Rarely have reason take issue with you THM, but this second vote you speak of?
If your referring to the GE, then I reckon that was a vote against austerity NOT Brexit. You've no proof that it was a vote for Brexit - it's just your opinion....so don't, please, opine as if it were fact. It really isn't & the GE result really was about austerity with Brexit beings secondary issue.
Enough pain hasn't been felt yet fit folks to realise that no matter how bad austerity was - Brexit has the potential to make things a lot worse...
Why was the election called? What were the key issues? Austrerity???? Another misnomer...
Mike - there is little point in listing a whole lot of issues as then saying they are brexshit's fault. That is simply the mirror image of what the Brexshiteers did themselves and neither stances hold up to scrutiny. If you have no disposable income and no pension pot then you are screwed, Brexshit or no Brexshit. Making a few banners and jumping up and down will not change that.
It was called for obvious reasons but I don't believe for one second nearly 75% of the voting electorate now favour Brexit.
That's a huge swing from a virtual 50/50 split, one of which has probably happened never before in politics.
I don't believe it as it so unlikely to be beyond improbable verging on impossible.
I'm sure you don't believe it either.....
Or do you??
No but only one of three major parties campaigned to overturn the decision - and their message was left largely unheard/ignored
Strip away the noise and both parties are working toward some form of bespoke deal and we will need a very long transition period to execute it. So plenty of time to adjust still...
Indeed.
Though I do wonder if the Libs were ignored because A. their time in coalition & B. They don't have the financial clout of the other 2 & so can't campaign in a way that'll counter.
one of three major parties
Are you old enough to remember when the Libs were a major party? Gosh.
Mike - there is little point in listing a whole lot of issues as then saying they are brexshit's fault. That is simply the mirror image of what the Brexshiteers did themselves and neither stances hold up to scrutiny. If you have no disposable income and no pension pot then you are screwed, Brexshit or no Brexshit. Making a few banners and jumping up and down will not change that.
Point missed?
Brexit will make things worse for all those people, making banners, campainging, engaging with the debate will make a difference, it has done already with a massive slap to TM et al who thoughyt they had a 150 seat majority to do whatever they wanted in the bag.
In a little over 18 months time the UK government whoever that is will be faced with one of 3 probable options.
1) TM's Take ball home (TM) Hard Brexit where we leave with nothing but pissed off neighbours and WTO if we are lucky.
2) The EU's best offer which will be deeply unpalitable to the UKIP/Right/Euro skeptic lot long with being worse for a lot of regular people
3) The apologise and call the whole thing off option that others were hinting at.
The will of the people when faced with the sort of headlines that will be coming out of the negotiations will heavily influence the direction the government takes at that point.
So Option A - sit on hands, keep quiet and wait.
Option B get involved and get stuck in to influencing the direction of the UK.
I can't believe people are truly suggesting that less involvment, less engagement and less interest in the political process is a good thing.
Fundamental fact of FPTP, its broken, do you vote for who you want and get who you don't want or do you vote for the party most likely to vote for the party most likely to defeat the incumbent?
For an election where the choice was Brexit v Brexit and austerity v investment is it a surprise that the vote went the way it did.
Option C - focus on the day job. It's going to be a long haul in the meantime. Responding to the daily noise would be rather pointless.
Are you old enough to remember when the Libs were a major party? Gosh.
Yes I do remember when they last formed a government - I thought they did an ok job in difficult circumstances too.
One of the reasons why the UK economy recovered relatively strongly is that austerity was abandoned ages ago in favour of one of the loosest fiscal policies in the developed world - bloody Tories (and Libs). On top of that our central bank's stole money off savers and the financially prudent in order to bail out the indebted. Not that any of this is part of the popular narrative on social media.
Guess you're taking a break from the thread then. Bye.
The general election was about making sure the Tories didn't get the mandate they thought was their due, on brexit or austerity. Voting liberal would have split the vote. Anyone who thinks the vote was an endorsement of brexit because labour's position is vaguely positive on it is deluded - they just couldn't afford to have their vote split, so they kept out of the argument deliberately to get their ukip votes back.
Didn't they do well then?
If you listen to Starmer carefully you might get a different version, but don't let that get in the way.
Remarkedly well considering where the starting position was. It'sm meant that everything is up for grabs/bribes and the very high likelhood of another election before the end of the negotiations or sign on the line time.
Perfect time to keep a high level of pressure on MP's and engagement with people.
Yes I do remember when they last formed a government -
That would make the DUP the third major party these days 🙂
How many cabinet/ministerial positions do they hold? I missed the announcement.
How many cabinet/ministerial positions do they hold? I missed the announcement
It was right after the one about how many the Liberals hold - weren't you listening?
But you can't disentangle Brexit and austerity.
Austerity has seen libraries, close, potholes get bigger, sure start centres shut down, youth clubs closed, social care collapse and councils face their biggest funding cuts in decades, in a stroke of xenophobic genius all of these failings have been scapegoated on the EU by an unchecked rightwing press and a hardcore of egotistical politicians who see a red white and blue path to power.
Labour where deliberately vague on Brexit b4 the election, but it's a dangerous game, the youth don't want it but many of the oldies do (in the ref what was it 65% of labour voters were remain Vs 35% of Tories?).
Osborne may be having a lot of fun at the ES exposing the incompetence and idiocy of May and the Tories as they make everything they touch a crisis right now but it was his and Cameron's austerity that stoked all this division and their leadership failure that left the swivel eyed in his party unchecked
Austerity has seen libraries, close, potholes get bigger, sure start centres shut down, youth clubs closed, social care collapse and councils face their biggest funding cuts in decades
Sorry kimbers, those things have nothing to do with austerity, they're all to do with... umm... well THM will be along in a minute to explain.
they're all to do with.
Priorities, you know like tax cuts and the like, the really important things in life.
The real problem going forward is there is nothing left to sell, well we could privatise the army can't see how that would go wrong. The Shell SAS dropping in to secure some oil wells before the AMEC Navy blew something up so they could get a contract to rebuild it.
Yes you can - to conflate them is to deliberately attempt to confuse. Brexshit is about how we want to engage with our biggest trading partner. Austerity is (you choose) but it is about the balance between government spending and government revenue and how to manage this. The fact that it (the gap) is relatively high at the moment - as it should be - seems to have escaped most. Of course, within the overall debate, there have been winners and losers (such as the ones you highlight) but that is what economics is all about - the allocation of scarce resources.
That's what this Brexit nonsense is really going to result in - damage to the incomes of anyone but the mega-rich and a bonfire of employment legislation in the name of 'being competitive in the international arena'
That was the whole point wasn't it? Hence the support for Brexit from Billionaire backers.
Get over it....
Never.
Part one you missed the THM - the conditions that caused Brexit, anti government austerity protest votes, under investment in communities, lack of resourcing which as pointed out allowed the right and brexit to blame immigration, to blame the EU etc.
Part two austerity, cuts, public sector pay caps and things like housing inequality are really really hurting people. It's putting people to the wall so the losers appear to be those who can least afford it.
Part three as it's widely accepted that brexit will have further negative impacts on the economy after the slide on the pound etc. or as your put it a long transition period. The impacts of what is being felt will be very hard to reverse.
There is no such thing as an issue in isolation. These 2 in particular are heavily linked and the outcomes will depend on each other.
Again - conflating issues doesn't solve them. It merely leads to sloppy thinking and the wrong "solutions"
Brexshit is bad for the economy, we agree, but that has not stopped people deciding that this is what they prefer. Appreciate its a weird choice, but there you go.....
Trying to deal with things in isolation simply leads to academic solutions and nice text book examples, it's not the real world. Brexit and Austerity are part of this decade, they are occurring and happening in one form or another across the board.
Brexit must consider the economic impacts and the limitations that will place on the UK going forward - like no public sector pay rises for 5 years or more, or no new schools, no 350 million/week on the NHS.
Try finding a Brexit Mandate with that message then when presented with a final deal that will probably not deliver what the brexit lot wanted, not satisfy the remaining majority or deliver stability for the UK what should be done?