[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Actually so far Brexit has not been a problem.

Every time I think "wow, that's the most wrong thing Jamba's ever said" you raise the bar. Good work.

For certain the Remainers have been moaning like crazy and it's clickbait heaven for the news outlets

Wait... what? The entire Leave press is one big clickbait. The Express have been running contentious polls almost daily to drive traffic to their site, and it's working fantastically well for them.

Aside from that the economy has barely skipped a beat

a) the economy has nosedived, that's simply a lie. The price of everything is going up, the exchange rate is through the floor. I've got a €50 note pinned to my noticeboard, I was going to cash it in but by the time I'm due to retire it'll be my pension.

b) the only reason we didn't tank harder directly after the referendum is because the BoE found a few billion down the back of the sofa to give an adrenaline shot to the economy. We didn't run out of money because we printed more of it.

and UK Treasury / IMF etc have admitted their Armageddon Projections where bollix.

Source please.

Is it not a legitimate question to ask that those that expect to come here permanently do so as they are bring skills and are taking well paid jobs ? My issue is we have far too many people with low skills and / or people who are willing to undercut UK wages for given skills.

All questions are legitimate so long as you listen to the answers.

The fact is that we [i]need[/i] low-skilled workers as well as high-skilled ones. It brings money directly into the economy. It's not that our lot can't do the jobs or are being displaced, rather that they refuse to.

The oft-touted example of fruit-picking for example: there's a shortage of migrant workers to meet with demand so that's great right? So what's actually happened, is it a) farmers have overwhelming numbers of natives going "oh thank the gods" and queuing up round the block to take the opportunities or b) they're massively short on labour and at risk of losing their livelihoods?

How are they "undercutting UK wages," I don't understand what you mean here. The minimum wage applies across the board regardless of how tanned you are. Are you suggesting that they're working illegally for less than minimum wage? If so that's an employer problem not an employee problem. Seriously, genuine question, I don't understand what you're getting at here.

It's not that our lot can't do the jobs or are being displaced, rather that they refuse to.

Not really. It's that most of them are already doing other stuff.

There isn't a shortage of jobs despite all the immigrants.

Are you suggesting that they're working illegally for less than minimum wage?

I think it's meant to mean tradesmen who can quote lower prices. Except most Polish tradesmen probably live here and have the same expenses as everyone else.

It's that most of them are already doing other stuff.

what about those without jobs?

There isn't a shortage of jobs despite all the immigrants.

the reality is locals dont do crop picking- its bloody hot work starting when the sun rises and usually 6 or 7 days a week with 12 + hours per day for not great pay - i lived in my van so it was nice money with no overheads but you were not getting a mortgage on it. even then 6 weeks was enough for my back to be shot and i was in my teens /early 20's i dont want to try it now tbh.

I did it here for 6 years it was about 25:1 local [ anyone from the uk] v immigrant and that was 25 years ago. I very much dount it has got any better .

For certain the Remainers have been moaning like crazy

Actually, credit where it's due, you're damned right about that. Want to know why?

It's because "we won, you lost, shut up and get over it" has no place in this so-called "democracy" that the Leavers keep crowing about. Attempting to forcibly silence ~half of the electorate who don't agree with you isn't democracy, it's fascism.

I hate to break this to you but we're going to keep "moaning," or to use a less pejorative term "opposing" (wow, remember when we had an Opposition in politics?) because we don't agree. [i]That's how democracy works.[/i] When you get a result you like, democracy doesn't magically stop for everyone else. If it did we'd still have the Whigs in charge. Ultimately if the UK does leave the EU we're going to still carry on fighting, and if it gets overturned I'd equally expect your lot to carry on fighting also.

The - let's be generous and say "Eurosceptics" - have been "moaning" for about as long as I've been on this Earth, so if you think we're just going to roll over because you happened to get a statistically insignificant number of votes on an advisory referendum based on the back of a pack of lies orchestrated by billionaires then you can stick it up your nose. We've got four decades of credit to spend moaning, sunbeam. Get over it.

I think it's meant to mean tradesmen who can quote lower prices. Except most Polish tradesmen probably live here and have the same expenses as everyone else.

That's not hard, our "tradesmen" have been taking the piss for years. It'll do them (and us) good to have some healthy competition.

Competition? Tories hate competition!

what about those without jobs?

Those would be the ones that aren't 'most of them'.

I picked fruit when I was young too. No immigrants. All locals. I'm sure it's not that now, but I doubt Brits have actually got significantly more workshy in the last 20 years. They just see 'them' doing it and that it is hard work and then see it as 'their' work that they don't want. I think a lot of people would do it if there weren't any other option. Of course some would claim bad backs etc to avoid the job centre making them.

Most people when I did it were working cash in hand though. And it wasn't permanent so it was young people and stay-at-home women etc.

Actually so far Brexit has not been a problem.

Every time I think "wow, that's the most wrong thing Jamba's ever said" you raise the bar. Good work.

It's not even worth responding to. I had written a lengthy first-hand example of how it's a massive problem for us already, with all recruitment now going to our Dublin office and the devaluation of the £ but then I realised, it's not even worth my time to contradict Jambalaya. Crack on.

As did I in my college days, picking cabadge and broccoli and then trimming it down in the shed at the end of the shift. Good summer job, good exercise and paid for beer and petrol.

More Polish joiners please! my phone never stops ringing (been like that for decades) and it's getting a bit wearing.... 🙂

It's because "we won, you lost, shut up and get over it" has no place in this so-called "democracy" that the Leavers keep crowing about. Attempting to forcibly silence ~half of the electorate who don't agree with you isn't democracy, it's fascism.

You are missing several points

1. We had a referendum which was based on the idea that whatever the result, it would be implemented. We lost, hence the democratic solution is to get on with the winners agenda, not favour the minority view, even if we share it. Democracy is not served by ignoring the result.

2. You moderate a forum that condones the suppression of certain views with mods even joining in the baiting of certain individuals who have different views - so called respect for others/democracy??

Stones and glass houses???

Anyway - few beers fuelling this admittedly - it doesn't matter. At the very best it will take at least ten years to extract ourselves from Europe completely. It's a total nonsense to suggest otherwise. So relax, it's a marathon not a sprint

The process will outlive this administration and probably the next

Democracy is not served by ignoring the result.

Democratic results do not fix things into single state forever. There is always change.

I rather suspect half of your disgruntlement is tied into your preference for a more predictable economic environment than any moral affront.

We had a referendum which was based on the idea that whatever the result, it would be implemented.

1. We had a referendum which was based on the idea that whatever the result, it would be implemented. We lost, hence the democratic solution is to get on with the winners agenda, not favour the minority view, even if we share it. Democracy is not served by ignoring the result.

Democracy is not served by ignoring the majority. which is what has happened. Democracy is not served by lies, by undisclosed funding etc.

So Brexit won, but what? They disowned the NHS claim in days, a year later precious little planning has emerged. Judges are traitors as is any dissent.

Sorry brexit is not democracy, it is a farce,

We had a referendum which was based on the idea that whatever the result, it would be implemented

no, and you seem to keep getting this wrong for some reason, we had a referendum that was [b]advisory[/b].

+1 cougar, well put.

I think a lot of people would do it if there weren't any other option.

Is this the bright future we're heading for … ?

Democracy is not served by ignoring the result.

Shall we list all the past results overturned by subsequent events and votes?

You moderate a forum that condones the suppression of certain views with mods even joining in the baiting of certain individuals who have different views

Really do you wish to agree that there is no problems from the impact of Brexit? YOu can accuse others of baiting him but until you wish to defend the tripe he serves up it wont sound like anything other than moaning for the sake of it and loyalty to a friend with strange views.

He talks nonsense others point it out.,
Secondly considering how you wish to refer to others, from the SNP mainly, who you dislike you will no doubt forgive me for finding a lecture from you on polite discourse , somewhat ironic.

Democracy is not served by ignoring the result

We lost, hence the democratic solution is to get on with the winners agenda

Absolute nonsense

Crawl back under whatever rock you've been under the past few weeks.

No need, as nice as the rock is - especially the underside - I prefer to get on with life. Much better

We have a decade of Brexshit nonsense ahead of us, so focusing on the immediate noise is a total waste of time.

Of course at the end of the decade the euro won't exist anyway - the ultimate irony of the whole thing

Democracy is fuelled by lies - remember the Scottish referendum? 670 pages of bllx. Then we had Brexshit and more recently an election where all parties put forward nonsense.

Still at least no one is suggesting that these fools should be in charge of more of our lives - imagine that?!?

The rest of the world manages just fine with WTO tariffs

Liar. They manage just fine with reciprocal free trade agreements neighbor states, large consumer economies, and membership of things like APEC and NAFTA.

Seems the rest of the world didn't get your memo.

You are missing several points

1. We had a referendum which was based on the idea that whatever the result, it would be implemented.

We had a referendum where that was (undemocratically, ho ho) claimed. The people making that claim didn't have the authority to do so (as a subsequent lengthy legal battle by that same party proved).

The same person making that promise also claimed that whatever the result, he'd see it through. Why aren't you holding Cameron to account for that self same claim? He said he'd implement whatever the decision was and that he'd stay on to do it. Then he walked away singing a jaunty tune. Why can he walk away from one assertion and not the other?

2. You moderate a forum that condones the suppression of certain views

Bullshit. This forum has never suppressed any views ever* (beyond those which would be harmful to the forum itself) and I take a pride in our community for that. If that accusation were even remotely true I'd resign.

What views are you alluding to?

with mods even joining in the baiting of certain individuals who have different views - so called respect for others/democracy??

Cheap shot. 99% of the time when Moderators post they're users just like everyone else. We're all allowed opinions (the very definition of democracy, no?) and to take part in debate, would you rather the moderators were exceptionally censored beyond the rest of the userbase?

(* - unless it was before I was a member)

So if after every vote we shot have backed the winner what do we do now? Nobody won parliament.
Why didn't the UKIP lot give in after being battered at every election?
Nobody can define brexit, a lot of remainers are now fighting hard against the Jambavision 2 fingers to the world I'm all right approach. The one that most rational people accept as complete madness and self harming.

If you would like to explain what the leave vote actually means go for it. If the UK is offered a remain at the end of the negotiations vs completely cut off which way would parliament vote?

If the UK is offered a remain at the end of the negotiations vs completely cut off which way would parliament vote?

That's a very interesting question.

Moreover, if the alternative to No Deal was to remain but review the issues that caused people to vote Leave in the first place (like exercising powers we already have to restrict immigration rights, for instance), how would the populace vote?

Or helping people with education and training? Immigration was always just the easy blame.

When even leave fanatics like Jambalaya accept that another referendum on the final deal would be remain, it's obvious the Will Of The People argument is a busted flush. The will of the people is sacrosancy and above all, except when it comes to asking a question you don't like the answer to, then it must remain silent.

Or helping people with education and training? Immigration was always just the easy blame.

I don't disagree, but it's hard to educate those who wilfully don't want to learn.

Rightly or wrongly, immigration is a concern for a large percentage of the population. In short, it's why we've arrived here. We could make concessions to apply restrictions (the same restrictions that most of the rest of Europe already apply) in order to address those concerns. Education is essential (you're right, it's the solution) but that's a longer-term goal.

the democratic solution is to get on with the winners agenda,

Good plan. Any idea what it is?

If you are here and can't afford £5k VISA application fee are you really adding what we need to the UK economy

Money, money, money - the only thing that matters.

2. You moderate a forum that condones the suppression of certain views with mods even joining in the baiting of certain individuals who have different views - so called respect for others/democracy??

Haha - complaining about the press ? Next step you'll be sending out early morning tweets. In fact the mods give a lot of space to jambot despite the fact that his endless trolling/lying devalues the forum.

At the end of the day there is no consensus for Brexit.

A historical vote, yes, but never a consensus.

And while that remains the case, I'll do the little I can to see the wheels come off.

The onus is on the Brexies to create a consensus.

In fact the mods give a lot of space to jambot despite the fact that his endless trolling/lying devalues the forum.

At least one mod seems to lurve jamba with a passion.

In fact the mods give a lot of space to jambot despite the fact that his endless trolling/lying devalues the forum

He may post things that do not hold up to some/slightest scrutiny (!) but his behaviour and politeness is in stark contrast to those who chose to bait him - even those who pretend to use the blocking software.

If you really want to ignore someone, it's very easy to do.

NW, if you are correct someone needs to let our party leaders know including the new populist. You saw the 4 sackings yesterday and the reason, I presume?

Everyone is split on Brexshit - another reason why the timetable is ridiculous in the extreme.

He may post things that do not hold up to some/slightest scrutiny (!) but his behaviour and politeness is in stark contrast to those who chose to bait him - even those who pretend to use the blocking software.

I beg to differ. There are more ways to be rude and disrespectful than by using naughty words. As you well know.

Just ignore him? Yes I guess that works. A bit like you can ignore dog shit and just walk round it.

He may post things that do not hold up to some/slightest scrutiny (!) but his behaviour and politeness is in stark contrast to those who chose to bait him

What's worse, being impolite or spreading fake news?

isn't fake news one of the reasons we got here !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

his behaviour and politeness is in stark contrast to those who chose to bait him

in stark contrast to those who chose to bait him - even those who pretend to use the blocking software.

There are more ways to be rude and disrespectful than by using naughty words. As you well know.

Jamby is your mate we get it but he still talks nonsense and he will still be called out for it

DOnt like it then go and join a "politer " forum but you will need to adapt your MO to survive.

PS i do not know what you were banned for this or the previous times but i am sure none of them were excessive politeness so perhaps look at the moat in thine own eye and forgive us eh

So you can talk complete shite as long as you do so politely? You upper middle classes are such a weird bunch...Manners above everything even sense...
...Sorry I am confused - can we have pops at folk or not - is this not baiting someone? Your ability to contradict yourself is Stunning...like you are polite on here you could not even manage it for that post asking for politeness....
...go and join a "politer " forum but you will need to adapt your MO to survive.

Yeah, imagine someone getting upset about stuff and claiming they were being picked on?

z-11 why do you insist on calling me Junky - is it a term of endearment or do you feel the need to insult me with every reply?

Imagine ninfan sticking his beak in with a pointless non sequitur.

Thread derailment?

Still no plan.

You upper middle classes are such a weird bunch...Manners above everything even sense

Jam is entitled to his opinion whether or not you like it. It is your opinion that he is talking shite. You don't have to be his best buddy but you do have to be polite. End of. Abuse is never called for. It's nasty, corrosive, and above all utterly unhelpful. No-one ever changed their mind because they were verbally abused.

If this turns into a slag-fest, it loses all possible meaning that it might ever have had.

It is important that you call out his bullshit, and anyone else's bullshit, but you must do it constructively - refute his points. Don't just get nasty. It's morally wrong, and it won't achieve anything except the destruction of sensible debate.

When will common sense break out on the busted flush that is Brexit??

The Tories are fing clueless & Labour won't tell anyone what they want.

Neither party has a clue on how to achieve It...

Any chance we can just forget the referendum like a big night on the lash & waking up to something we'd rather not, then quietly sneaking out before they wake??

Labour have told us what they want.

The leadership want exactly the same as the Tories, but to then take their place to patch things up differently afterwards.
Of course, lots of Labour and Tory MPs think all the damage needs to be mitigated, by either staying linked as closely as possible to the EU/EEA, or staying in.
Leadership of both parties united as to how to leave, just not on how to rebuild afterwards.

Labour have told us what they want

What is it then?

With specifics please.

But there aren't any are there.

Nobodies got a chuffing clue what they want & how to acheuve it.

The only ones with any idea are those who want a hard Brexit & god help us if we end up with that!

It is your opinion that he is talking shite.

if i say the world is flat I am talking shite because it is not, ditto saying brexit has not been a problem. its not an opinion its just wrong. No one has attempted to agree with his analysis

I only pointed out he is wrong

so far Brexit has not been a problem.

inflation , growth , reduced investment and the exchange rates are facts that would disagre ewiht your unbridled [ and unfounded] illusory optomism

teamhurtmore - Member
Democracy is fuelled by lies - remember the Scottish referendum?

It's amazing how immune you are to your own bullshit.

Only way to guarantee EU membership, anyone? 😆

Still at least no one is suggesting that these fools should be in charge of more of our lives - imagine that?!?

I'm still waiting on you explaining how your anarchist utopia will work in practice? 😉 😆

With specifics please.

All the benefits (except one of the key ones, because of foreigner blaming swing voters) with non of the commitments (apart from the one that hasn't been ruled out, ie financial contributions of some kind).

Exactly the same as May and Davies et al.

And, no, it doesn't make sense.

And, no, not supported by their MPs, members, or voters.

You'll forgive me for tittering and trying not to spill my coffee Molgrips, I won't be a prick and remind you of all the names you called me on the iDave threads. 😛

As for sensible debate, that is soemthing Brexit is devoid of, in the real world or on STW. This thread is an accurate reflection of how the two camps behave in the real world. Johnson liar extraordinary and Farage xenophobe when he is'nt being plain racist for the Brixit camp - the rational, realistic, pragmatic and people with something to lose in the Remain camp.

Strip away the noise and both parties are calling for a bespoke deal. We all know that there are inherent contradictions in the positions of both side, hence the need for negotiation and compromise - and a lengthy transition

Starker was clear on the objectives he wants which is why he/they were PO with their colleagues last night.

Morning Joe! I am not advocating anarchy merely less state involvement not more.

And, no, it doesn't make sense.

😆

Quite!

minarchist utopia then! 😉

I'm still struggling to see how less regulation, you know the type that cause the financial cr...the great robbery, in the first place, will help matters.

Not really advocating that either. Next?

Don't forget the heavy hand of the state and its institutions in the GFC. Bill telling banks tokens to those who could not afford to pay the loans back. Remember ?!?

Jam is entitled to his opinion whether or not you like it

He is indeed. What he is not entitled to do is to pretend that his "opinion" is based on fact.

You'll forgive me for tittering and trying not to spill my coffee Molgrips, I won't be a prick and remind you of all the names you called me on the iDave threads.

I made the distinction between criticising your posts and abusing you. There is a clear difference - to me anyway.

And I accept that I could have been wrong though, and I would not try to justify it if so 🙂

What he is not entitled to do is to pretend that his "opinion" is based on fact.

Well, the concept of 'fact' is actually quite fluid, but that aside - no-one should abuse him for it. Criticise his logic, yes, but not abuse him.

teamhurtmore - Member
Not really advocating that either. Next?

Don't forget the heavy hand of the state and its institutions in the GFC. Bill telling banks tokens to those who could not afford to pay the loans back. Remember ?!?

He is indeed. What he is not entitled to do is to pretend that his "opinion" is based on fact.

This.

To argue otherwise makes you complicit in his lies & as dubious a character.

Sorry, I have no time for liers & those who deliberately distort reality to steve there own nefarious aims.

Call those out who do.

I am not advocating anarchy merely less state involvement not more.

I've recently seen a tower block burn over that.

Indeed the problem is we had a world with less regulation and it led to the dark satanic mills where we actually had to legislate to reduce child labour hours to a mere 12 hours a day [ excluding breaks]

Whilst we can all agree that in some areas there is too much interference the problem is the unregulated market seeks out the lowest cost with the greatest profit with , literally, the costs being lives.

Unfortunately it is what we have to do to control those who put money before peoples lives

Some of it may be intrusive but the alternative is far far worse.

He is indeed. What he is not entitled to do is to pretend that his "opinion" is based on fact.

I dunno, he suppose he's entitled to do both of those things. Just as we're entitled to refute those claims with pesky things like evidence.

Speaking of which,

Actually so far Brexit has not been a problem.

I'll just leave this here:

http://uk.businessinsider.com/uk-economy-q1-gdp-third-estimate-brexit-2017-6

[i]"Britain [is] the worst performing major economy on earth right now."[/i]

Assuming Greece etc are on earth, that's worse than Greece etc.

molgrips - Member

Edukator - Reformed Troll
You'll forgive me for tittering and trying not to spill my coffee Molgrips, I won't be a prick and remind you of all the names you called me on the iDave threads.

I made the distinction between criticising your posts and abusing you. There is a clear difference - to me anyway.

I don't think Cougar read the actual report :0(

Looks like LePen is in a bit of hot water...

I dunno, he suppose he's entitled to do both of those things. Just as we're entitled to refute those claims with pesky things like evidence.

If you want, but after we've done that, and he continues ... errr ... fibbing, we're entitled to stop treating him like a serious commentator, and more like an object of ridicule.

Do you not know where the line is between dismissing someone's opinions and abusing the person?

[b] we have folk who do, so use the report post button and stop wasting forum time with this[/b]

some of what is said to him on here is rude
Unfortunately its often an accurate description of what he does on here so let the mods decide.

Do you not know where the line is between dismissing someone's opinions and abusing the person?

I know where I think it is. Perhaps that since facts for you are a fluid concept you have another idea?

Fighty fighty.

Returning slightly to topic, I think Labour want the following - keep the Leave-voter portion of their traditional vote under the illusion Britain is going to leave the EU so a short-notice GE is winnable until the realisation that Brexit is and always was never a realistic possibility in any meaningful way hoves fully into mainstream view and they can then be the party to formally consign the whole idiotic idea to the dustbin of history to the relief of everyone bar the hardcore Tory eye-swivellers, the right-wing press and the Spitfire-and-crumpets nostalgists who, by that point, will represent nothing other than their own naked self interest and far-fetched daydreams.

The leadership can endorse Brexit to respect democracy, and backbenchers representing remain constituencies can rebel to stay with their conscience or appease their constituents. Not a bad strategy I'd have thought. With both main parties for Brexit and the only serious remain party struggling to hold onto that accolade, it seems to work.

2tyred - I think you're probably right that Labour want to avoid needlessly alienating the Brexiters, especially with pointless grandstanding like Chuka Umuna's latest narcissistic display.

what, a man of principle standing up for what he (you and I) believes in, from the backbenches and against leadership intent on harming the UK economy - and you criticise him for that!?!? What an odd world....

I think this article pretty much sums up the somewhat ambiguous stance by The Labour Party on Brexit.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/06/jeremy-corbyn-faces-dilemma-brexit-solidifies-which-half-his-voters-should-he

Assuming Greece etc are on earth, that's worse than Greece etc.

Is Greece considered a major economy? (Economics is, well, I know squat about it TBH.)

I don't think Cougar read the actual report :0(

What did I miss (see above)?

Is this any better?

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-economy-idUKKBN19L0XG

I'm with Gary Lineker here - http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/gary-lineker-describes-feeling-politically-homeless-as-jeremy-corbyn-sacks-soft-brexit-backers/ar-BBDsW6N?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartandhp
But even if you don't agree, the suggestion that he could lead a new party called centre forward is pretty good!

The article that C linked is rather sensational. - the UK still grew by 2% YoY

Nevertheless the underlying message is valid - the U.K. Economy is slowing, real wages are stagnant, people are still heavily in debt and inflation has risen (see real wages). Puts the BoE in a v tricky position re IRs

Brexit merely makes a bad situation worse

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40461551 ]Further reading on poor Marine's latest travails.[/url]

amazing how many of the racist right wing anti EU lot used MEP as a route to political success and then fiddled the fees to fund their party

I am sure this is all the fault of the corrupt EU

Be fair, Farage et al know the EU is corrupt, they have proof the EU is corrupt, precisely because of the way his party and his far right brethren mis-used funds.

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2017/jun/30/brexit-hamstrung-theresa-mays-absolutist-stance-european-court-exit?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Looks like May has thrown her toys out of her pram and we are going to suffer for it.