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Zzzzz. Why do I waste time on this forum arguing the toss with a load of socialists.
Perhaps the Daily Mail has a forum where you can waste your time agreeing with right wingers about how great Diana was? 🙂
flanagaj - Member
The skew of EU migrants in vs UK nationals out to other EU states just reinforces my view that EU migration is not balanced.
Yep. The UK is reaping far more of the benefits of immigration than other EU countries.
(Actually I suspect what flanagaj has found is than more Poles speak British than Brits speak Polish)
It's like the Daily Mail Headline generator around these parts these days 😆
http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/toys/dailymail/
HAVE CYCLISTS GIVEN BRITAIN'S FARMERS CANCER?
ARE ASYLUM SEEKERS GIVING YOUR HOUSE DIABETES?
oldracer - MemberYou seem intent on absolving folks of any responsibility of their actions
Not at all, I just think whether or not they're being irresponsible isn't a good reason to leave them in trouble. I don't like end-of-the-wedge arguments but trying to hit that big gap jump is irresponsible.
oldracer - MemberJust to clarify - do you disagree with any of these statements:
(they are all from NHS staff in the link)" Often they don’t need A&E help – they just need to sleep it off" - a paramedic.
"“A lot of people treat the ambulance like a free cab service,” says Ged Blizzard, director of emergency services for the North West Ambulance Service, citing a man in Manchester who rang to ask if he could book an ambulance for 11.45 in case he needed one due to drinking too much."
“We definitely have our ‘regulars’,” says the paramedic outside the Royal Liverpool, who asks to remain anonymous."
The first- if someone is so pissed they need to sleep it off, but isn't capable of getting home, then it's not an A&E need but there's nowhere else for them to do it. A different process could handle it but we don't have that different process.
The example "using it as a taxi" as I say is someone predicting he might need an ambulance because he's drunk too much. That's alcoholism.
Likewise regulars- it doesn't mean they're abusing the NHS, it means they're getting drunk and ending up in hospital frequently. Again that's medical. There's other ways it can be handled but that doesn't mean it's wrong now for them to end up in hospital.
kerley - Member
and a good way to increase the tax TAKE
Deliver economic growth - simple
But first you have to understand why economic growth is disappointing - and western governments have shown a spectacular inability to do this. Hence the wrong solutions to the wrong problems continue
On top of that we now have Brexshit.
So if your livelihood is based in government revenues then you are STILL in for a very tough time irrespective of which fool is in #10. One things is for sure, the bearded wonder doesn't have the solution any more than the fools currently in charge.
It's not very pretty and the economy was slowing anyway. So turns out not so simple after all. But raising taxes certainly isn't the answer.
THM - as a champagne socialist (never knowingly in fashion) that sounds about right.
Of course adding immigrants to your economy (particularly of an age range that is low burden - i.e. not old folk or children) can grow the economy without increasing the burden on the public purse.
I am all for FoM igm
Yet another example of governments screwing us up.
Buy your fruit now and freeze it because there will be shortage of fruit late summer, unless those who complained can be arsed to pick it themselves
[quote=teamhurtmore ]I am all for FoM igm
Probably for the same reasons JC is against it 😉
Well that went well - I thought David Davies thought he could hang on to these..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-40381320
I was thinking this calls for a tripple face palm.
But I was wrong, so so wrong.
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Well that went well - I thought David Davies thought he could hang on to these..
Well yes but we've taken back control. Of **** all.
THM - you are a most annoying righty. I keep agreeing with you. What's a self respecting bleeding heart liberal lefty like me meant to do?
That's good news for the remaining members of the EU though nipper.
Would be good to see those agencies relocated to some new or more needy EU members
Davis being shown to be completely deluded
well theres a surprise
Davis being shown to be completely deludedwell theres a surprise
If only he was as clever as he thinks he is.
The David Davies p*** take on Dead Ringers this evening is worth a listen.
I imagine David Davies sees himself something like:
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The r27 however....
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I think Davis nicely sums up how pesky things like facts and critical thinking have no place in the Brexiteer mindset.
But for wait there's another Brexiteer who's desperate to snatch the chief idiot title
Leadsome, when faced with some criticism of their incompetence , expects the media to be patriotic and only report what's she wants it to !
That incompetence discussed here
who is this "We" she's talking about ?
Have to wonder how far the Tories will push, i think it is becoming clear that the path the Tories are pushing is no deal. A result that will screw a huge number of people in the UK.
I would suggest that the UK population can be divided into 3 groups, remainers, brexiteers and don't really care. For the majority of the don't cares what matters is simple things, jobs, holidays, NHS etc etc.
If the majority see their lives negatively impacted and no indication of an upside who will they blame?
who will they blame?
Everyone but ourselves with all often frequency
And Leadsome can **** off. The media is distorted enough, including social media. What the press really REALLY should do is balanced factual reporting.
The "patriotic" thing to do is clearly to drive the country to disaster in pursuit of your own political career.
The "patriotic" thing to do is clearly to drive the country to disaster in pursuit of your own political career.
Looking good for Boris and his trying to be PM i would suggest.
i think it is becoming clear that the path the Tories are pushing is no deal.
I genuinely don't think they want that, we may end up with that through Tory hubris and ill-thought out "negotiations"*, but I don't think even they are stupid enough to think that's the best outcome.
* Is there a word that encapsulates the way the Tories have completely and utterly underestimated the EU27, lied to the population as a whole about what can be achieved, while simultaneously overestimating their own capabilities?
* Is there a word that encapsulates the way the Tories have completely and utterly underestimated the EU27, lied to the population as a whole about what can be achieved, while simultaneously overestimating their own capabilities?
Brexit
I genuinely don't think they want that, we may end up with that through Tory hubris and ill-thought out "negotiations"*
Individually they might not, but collectively that's where they're taking us. "Groupthink" is the name for this, IIRC.
but I don't think even they are stupid enough to think that's the best outcome.
Seriously?
And Leadsome can **** off
she was my MP for a bit, she seemed bewildered by how most people outside of her Tory middle-class Northants rural bubble lived their lives TBH
she was my MP for a bit, she seemed bewildered by how most people outside of her Tory middle-class Northants rural bubble lived their lives TBH
Was it Portilo who said that as an MP he never realised how most people lived, it was only after he lost that he discovered the "real" world most live in???
Looking good for Boris and his trying to be PM i would suggest.
Seriously?
call me naive if you want, but surely they must have spoken with EU specialists (academics and so on) they must be taking actual advice about what happens if...They can't be idiotic enough to think they don't need expert advice, and I don't think they're not having those discussions.
I don't think that much of most Tory politicians, but I don't think they're so stupid that they don't realise they need all the help they can get
This "patriotic" thing is really grinding my balls now.
Calling out this bunch of serial failures as incompetents is not being un patriotic and trying to hide behind that just shows their desperation to avoid scrutiny.
Actually its probably the mindset that got us into this mess.
"Never mind the facts just be patriotic and jump of this cliff shouting for queen and country"
kin nob heads.
[quote=wilburt ]This "patriotic" thing is really grinding my balls now.
Calling out this bunch of serial failures as incompetents is not being un patriotic and trying to hide behind that just shows their desperation to avoid scrutiny.
It's part of the other thing which grinds my gears "we must pull together", implying that those of us who don't agree with what they're doing should just get behind them.
TBH Emily should have just quoted Samuel Johnson at Loathsome - even more apt than might be immediately obvious given that Johnson was just complaining about false patriotism.
patriotism is the last bastion of the scoundrel
TBH when all you can do is appeal for us to get excited by the flag then you have lost the argument
TBH i rarely get behind the country and I sure as hell dont do it when some muddled tories flounder indecisively as they drive us off a cliff cheered on my the [s]stupid[/s]less well educated voters and the [s]racist little englanders[/s] patriotic flag loving white folk .
FWIW i dont think they want no deal i think they might have actually believed their own hubris - they need us more than them and we could have our cake and eat it. Now the EU is emphatically showing who has the cards they are left with empty rhetoric and no real position on the issues
Its also worth noting that enough Tory MPS are strongly pro the EU that a hard Brexit may well split the party and I dont just mean Scottish Tories refusing to side with it
Its also worth noting that enough Tory MPS are strongly pro the EU that a hard Brexit may well split the party and I dont just mean Scottish Tories refusing to side with it
Can hope for a t least one good thing to come out of this cluster****
It's Dunning-Krueger innit. Coupled with the assumption that seems to exist in some political circles, that you can make something true just by talking about it over and over again.
The media is now openly talking about abandoning brexit, its only taken them a year to realise what was obvious to some of us right from the outset. There is no brexit.
patriotism is the last bastion of the scoundrel
and the virtue of the vicious.
Capiain, you seem to be ignoring two key points (1) we lost the referendum and (2) the two parties who received the most votes in the GE both promised Brexshit albeit in possibly different forms.
So difficult to say that there is "mo Brexshit." the only light at the end of the tunnel is that when faced with tough choices the default position of the EU is to kick the can as far down the road as possible. So it seems to me, that we may well end up with a very extended transition - the obvious bit - and then the almighty fudge of almighty fudges. Why? Because that's is most people's interests. In the meantime, we sall see whether the Euro folly is finally abandoned, restructured or not.
Interesting times ahead.
It's part of the other thing which grinds my gears "we must pull together"
Gears on a unicycle?
As for "pulling together", the last time Brits did that was WWII. There are structural conflicts in British society that mean some people have never pulled together. Brexit has created a new divide which means people are pulling in different directions for one more reason than before. It's highly divisive. I'm not there to sabotage every company and institution that is openly pro-Brexit but I hope that's the attitude of remainers.
Whilst true its a Non sequiturthe two parties who received the most votes in the GE both promised Brexshit albeit in possibly different forms
They always get the most votes but to suggest that the result indicates that every voter for them support Brexit [ or the lib dems are only unpopular due to their EU stance] is at best disingenuous and at worst total BS
Ken clarke is a tory MP for example and he voted against A50 - is he and his voters part of your claim ?
Millions of these parties supporters do not agree with their Brexit stance and people vote how they do for a myriad of reasons and not on this one issue
it was GE it was not a referendum on this issue so please stop claiming it was.
I agree its entirely plausible the EU and thew UK will do a fudge deal but that rather depends on how willing both sides are to compromise
Currently I see no indication of this from either side
I think a significant number of people in Europe are now seeing Brexit as an opportunity, and they aren't British. Nice fat agencies to pick up, companies needing offices in Europe, companies needing to recentre industrial operations in Europe, poaching markets from British companies handicapped by the loss of EU status... .
YOU NEED US MORE THAN WE NEED YOU
[quote=Edukator ]Gears on a unicycle?
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FWIW i dont think they want no deal i think they might have actually believed their own hubris
There are at least four ministers that are a perfect fit for that notion. David Davies being just one.
I'm not there to sabotage every company and institution that is openly pro-Brexit but I hope that's the attitude of remainers.
I'm doing my best. I don't think I've bought anything from a company or organisation that supported Brexit in th last year.
Is there a list? Not something I've ever done, but happy to join in.
There is. I'll see if I can find it and post it up.
Link to 200 small business Brexies
Hmm, if I click on that do I give the DT advertising revenue?
And to be fair while you will have a greater efffrct on small businesses, you are more likely to bump into larger Brexy businesses like Dyson, JCB (both of whom had chips on their shoulders about EU regulations) or Wetherspoons (who decided after the event he was in favour of freedom of movement - but he may have changed his mind again, who knows).
Patisserie Valerie is probably also borderline Brexy - but it's also vastly overpriced and not very good, so just avoid on that basis.
Bugger - have definitely given money to Wetherspoons, and I have no defence as I knew he was a Brexiteer. TBH I'm not sure I can swear not to do so in future either (particularly given I have more pressing local reasons to boycott other pub chains).
Thm, you seem to say we can't abandon brexit, and then describe one mechanism by which we can abandon it..,
As no-one can work out how to do it (Tories are nuts and labour completely incoherent) it's not going to happen. Brexit delayed is brexit denied.
Watching our politicians attempting to navigate the choppy waters of Brexit is like watching a gibbon trying to operate the Space Shuttle... Mildly entertaining to begin with but a high chance of a catastrophic outcome.
My money is on the gibbon
@thecaptain you are over complicating it. We can just leave in April 2019, it's really not that complicated, those trying to represent it as such have a remainers agenda. Undoubtably for many that would be a shock but my view is it would be a short sharp one and it would allow us to focus our energies globally. The rest of the world manages just fine not being in the EU, no freedom of movement etc etc. Now politics makes things more didficult, compromises, "transition arrangements" etc etc but we most certainly could just leave.
[quote=jambalaya ]We can just leave in April 2019, it's really not that complicated
Not complicated no, it's just that we'd be completely ****ed in all sorts of ways and not just for the short term. Anybody pretending otherwise has a brexiteers agenda.
The rest of the world manages just fine not being in the EU
The rest of the world hasn't just spent the past 40 years being a part of the EU. And the previous forty millennia being only 26 miles from it.
.
Could you quantify that in terms of GDP growth inflation unemployment and time please.that would be a shock but my view is it would be a short sharp one
that would be a shock but my view is it would be a short sharp one
I recall that a previous Conservative government tried to use the "Short, sharp, shock" to "fix" problems with youth justice. It was utterly disastrous then, and it will doubtless be another disaster now.
[quote=Junkyard ]Could you quantify that in terms of GDP growth inflation unemployment and time please.
150% of GDP, 150 thousand unemployed and 150 years 😈
Ah a jamby prediction perhaps as your in Paris so much a cake stand at Versailles, might not be a bad idea
Jamby, among many others I'm still waiting for a plausible solution to the NI problem.
Undoubtably for many that would be a shock but my view is it would be a short sharp one
If you don't come up with any evidence for that belief then no one is going to believe you, given you are saying the opposite of what we are seeing.
You need credibility.
The rest of the world manages just fine not being in the EU, no freedom of movement etc etc.
Manages just fine how?
Because there's nowhere I can think of comparable in size to the UK, with our limited natural resources, reliance on foreign low skilled workers etc that has a standard of living that's even remotely similar?
Obviously when your floating around in your yacht and the only interest you have in the rest of society is how much more money you can rape out of them I can see how you'd think that. But perhaps try takng your head out of your arse before you choke on your own shit and realise not everyone is in the same privileged position you are.
Undoubtably for many that would be a shock but my view is it would be a short sharp one
How short? 20 years? Guess Nissan and the city of London will be long gone by then. It's an insane idea.
My wife is pretty good, not perfect, and getting on a bit, perhaps I should kill her, go to jail for 15 years, and get a better one when I get out? That sort of plan?
Brexit, it's not getting better with age is it?
I have noticed over the last 50 year's that economic misery (recessions etc) now arrive almost out of the blue and hang around a lot longer - its taken the best part of 10 years to recover from 2008. So based upon that alone a WTO style brexit is likey to take 10 year's as a minimum to recover to current standards of living. So in broad terms that's 2008 to 2028 to break even, 20 years? And if i add in 76 to 86 that means 30 years of my working life have been sonewhat challenging.
Undoubtably for many that would be a shock but my view is it would be a short sharp one
I am sure upthread there was something about it being a couple of decades and that your children's children would benefit????
Maybe i am miss remembering.
Oh my god - the grinning idiot is on Marr.
I think we should have a referendum on the death penalty. And when its voted through by 37% of the population we should force the other 63% to witness the executions and give a rousing cheer at every death as anything else would be unpatriotic.
Have we done Amber Rudd saying that reporting on the Brexit farce should be more patriotic?
Honestly? I know that patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel, but she is too thick to be a scoundrel, so she must just be an idiot.
Is this what it has come to? Not being allowed to comment on this fiasco as it might be deemed unpatriotic?
We need someone to have the balls to stand up and say "we get it, Brexit was a lashing out against liberalism, but it is just plain wrong and will damage the UK, perhaps irreparably". Maybe we could have a second referendum and if the vote is 'remain' we could offer a national 'Racism is OK Day'. Just one day of the year (23rd June has a nice ring to it) where it is ok to be overtly racist, just to allow 'the people' to feel they are taking back control. Of course there would be uproar when you couldn't get served down the local tandoori because racism cuts both ways, but hey.......
dannyh - Member
...and if the vote is 'remain' we could offer a national 'Racism is OK Day'. Just one day of the year (23rd June has a nice ring to it) where it is ok to be overtly racist, just to allow 'the people' to feel they are taking back control...
I think you have just laid the groundwork for "The Purge". 🙂
It's ok, just recognise it as the last desperate thrashing about in panic as they realise they've lost the argument, not because they were outwitted by skilled opponents, but because they were wrong from the start.
The rest of the world manages just fine not being in the EU
Just fine for who, what does that even mean, probably one the most cretinous things Jambalaya has come up with - I can only imagine that individuals in huge swathes of the rest of the world can only dream of having the rights and protections afforded by the EU to its citizens. The EU is not perfect by any means but it is undoubtedly a civilising influence.
I think
sums up those for whom its just fine. Economic rapists - good term with their regulatory bonfires. I was going back through some old papers recently and came across some pices i'd kept about the Bhopal disaster and I imagine things like that continue to this day (the Primark sweatshop disasters come to mind oil pollution in part of Africa etc)who's doing just fine - joe bod Indian /Bangladeshi/Nigerian etc - I think not.how much more money you can rape out of them
'Doing just fine'
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oldmanmtb - Member - Block User - Quote
I have noticed over the last 50 year's that economic misery (recessions etc) now arrive almost out of the blue and hang around a lot longer
Historically, Marx predicted this and said that what you are experiencing would herald the end of Capitalism, as the economic cycles ran closer and closer together, but was vague on timelines and thought that expansion of capitalism would delay this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_theory
He was critiqued by Rosa Luxemburg, who wrote "The Accumulation of Capital":
"....capitalism needs to constantly expand into noncapitalist areas in order to access new supply sources, markets for surplus value, and reservoirs of labor.
According to Luxemburg, Marx had made an error in Capital in that the proletariat could not afford to buy the commodities they produced, and therefore by his own criteria it was impossible for capitalists to make a profit in a closed-capitalist system since the demand for commodities would be too low, and therefore much of the value of commodities could not be transformed into money.
Therefore, according to Luxemburg, capitalists sought to realize profits through offloading surplus commodities onto non-capitalist economies, hence the phenomenon of imperialism as capitalist states sought to dominate weaker economies. This however lead to the destruction of non-capitalist economies as they were increasingly absorbed into the capitalist system. With the destruction of non-capitalist economies however, there would be no more markets to offload surplus commodities onto, and capitalism would break down.
The Accumulation of Capital was harshly criticized by both Marxist and non-Marxist economists, on the grounds that her logic was circular in proclaiming the impossibility of realizing profits in a close-capitalist system, and that her "underconsumptionist" theory was too crude.[28] Her conclusion that the limits of the capitalist system drive it to imperialism and war led Luxemburg to a lifetime of campaigning against militarism and colonialism."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Luxemburg#The_Accumulation_of_Capital
Hmm.
Have we done Amber Rudd saying that reporting on the Brexit farce should be more patriotic?
It was actually Andrea Loathsome, but it's an easy mistake to make. These idiots are more or less interchangeable.
The thing about Brexit that pissed me off the most (and there are a fair few bits) is how this makes us look to the majority of the world's citizens.
It's like a spoiled child turning around and flinging their entire upbringing back in their parents face because they got the wrong X Box game on Christmas morning.
I am sure upthread there was something about it being a couple of decades and that your children's children would benefit????Maybe i am miss remembering.
To be fair to jamba, he tends to revise down mostly.
No not always, I predicted a Remain win initially then revised up to a Leave result 🙂
No not always, I predicted a Remain win initially then revised up to a Leave result
Even a broken clock it right twice a day.......