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Do we really want to be this ****ing stupid AGAIN!!!!!!
Very significant reason for voting remain IMO. Seventy years of uninterrupted peace in western Europe, it's never happened before.
[i]German car manufacturers are the red herring that keeps giving.[/I]
+1
We've a BMW and a Land Rover (both top spec's), I'm pretty sure we'd buy both again in the future and accept whatever the price is, if we wanted to save money (and didn't care what we drove) we'd no doubt run around in 7-year warranties (Kia's etc).
IME all cars will be impacted by Brexit due to import/export of either the full car or a large percentage of their components nevermind the base metals - it's a long time since we've mined iron ore in any quantities (although we've plenty of deposits) and bauxite has pretty much always been 100% imported for example.
Gibraltar is a very interesting issue in that there is an overwhelming majority for staying in the Eu and for remaining a UK dependency ( is that is legal status) so thats very hard to unpick
As for all the nonsense about the EU needing the UK - yes they do but to nothing like the extent of the other way round and there is no way on earth the EU are going to allow free trade from a UK which can undercut them with lower employment rights etc.
Verhofstadt:
“Twenty million people have died because of nationalism in Europe,” he told his audience at Chatham House.
“There is not one family living on the continent and certainly not in Britain who has no grandfather, grandmother, who was not a victim of these stupidities, these atrocities at the end of the 19th and the whole 20th century.
“Putting your future organisation of Europe on nationalist ideas is the most stupid thing you can do. It’s playing with fire knowing what it has created in the past.”
I agree with Guy. And not Nigel and his nation-state weebling, he's pathetic.
Gibraltar is a funny one though. If you look at it on a map it really looks like a bit of Spain....
Personally I think the end decision should be given to the people of Gibraltar in a "do you want to be a part of Spain, part of whatever remains of the smouldering ruins of the UK or 50:50 split". Seems the only fair and reasonable thing to do (with some kind of av set up and a minimum threshold).
They would choose the UK so job done.
The EU is showing its true vindictive colours at the moment
Only a person who thinks in those terms would think that others do.
Gibraltar is a funny one though. If you look at it on a map it really looks like a bit of Spain....
Yeah and Scotland looks like a bit of Britain and Northern Ireland looks like a bit of Ireland.
On Gibraltar, we handed Hong Kong back because it suited.
We gave HK back as our 100 year lease expired. It was contractual.
There are a lot of commonalities between HK and Gibraltar, and both will be treated as pawns when the time is right. I also have no doubts that the Falklands, Bermuda et al will also be played when the game demands it.
The UK has sold most of its industry, infrastructure etc. So what gets sold next?
While May is at it take back British fishing waters and.screw Spain too, the negotiators are going to have to get nasty over the next 2 years, the EU has done very well out of us, no wonder they want to make it as hard as possible to leave.....imagine all those Spanish fishing boats in port with no permit to enter British waters, another riot/strike on the continent over our generosity and how we could so easily take it back.....im beginning to think the UK has a stronger hand in this than many realise....problem is the EU do realise and are playing at aggression while actually shit scared.
Seriously, whose going to step up and cover the UK's soon to be absent contributions!?
The EU is a mess, if they'd listened and reformed as the UK asked them to time and time again over recent years it might not have come to this....the EU's staggering arrogance is what i want to get away from.
We gave HK back as our 100 year lease expired. It was contractual.
He's right on this one.
Jambafact, HK was not on a 100 year lease, yes parts were, but it was gained in EXACTLY the same way as Gib. by Treaty and in perpetuity, also both involved the British Empire and guns. Could point out that huge numbers of workers in Gib. live in spain and commute.
Block the borders and what happens to Gibratar?
No, they've been far too confrontational - if they wanted to protect their interests this would be done quietly with the least amount of pain for everyone, it doesn't seem that it will - as other member countries are lining up to see how they can personally gain economically and geopolitically out of this.
Safe to say we started it. And I think you misunderstand what "protecting your own interests" means. We are no longer going to be a part of the EU, we will be competition and potential trading partner. And we (as in our government) have behaved appallingly from day one of this shambles. I'm amazed at the levels of restraint from the rest of the EU. I was fully expecting the EU to be prepared to spend the next 2 years sitting on their hands, wait for the uk to fall off the cliff and assest strip the country. And I wouldn't blame them for a minute if they did after how we have gone about it all.
mattjg, read up on Treaty of Nanking.
We gave HK back as our 100 year lease expired. It was contractual.
All of it?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/donald-trump-eu-european-union-guy-verfhostadt-chief-negotiation-threat-to-a7553131.html
I agree and although I loathe Trump, siding with him maximises our chances of destabilising a bloc that should now be seen as our competitor - not our ally.
I was fully expecting the EU to be prepared to spend the next 2 years sitting on their hands, wait for the uk to fall off the cliff and assest strip the country. And I wouldn't blame them for a minute if they did after how we have gone about it all.
They will try to do exactly that.
@deviant the major gulf here between you and me is I don't see the EU as an enemy to be destroyed. Hard to bridge that between you and me!
In fact I'm sure the EU have my interests more at heart than my own government, who don't give a stuff. They work for Pau Dacre, end of story really.
mattjg, read up on Treaty of Nanking.
Not going to do that. I've always understood it was a lease but I am open to correction. (So why did we give it back?)
Is Tom_W1987 cut and pasting from a Russian crib sheet? Sure sounds like it.
Block the borders and what happens to Gibratar?
Starvation?
The falklands are too political to be given up but they are clearly "stolen lands" that hark back to our empire days
Falklands where granted to the UK by the Spanish before the country of Argentina existed as the region was under Spanish rule.
I agree and although I loathe Trump, siding with him maximises our chances of destabilising a bloc that should now be seen as our competitor - not our ally.
Never side with the US, we have been shafted many times before. Trump will do what is in his interests.
I've always understood it was a lease but I am open to correction.
Some of it, not all of it.
(So why did we give it back?)
If we had split it, we'd have caused chaos on both the economic and human levels.
[b]Economic Crises[/b]
This was the number 1 issue facing the EU so said Junker in his opening remarks at the Malta summit. More importanf than Brexit or the migrant crises. This is the backdrop to our negotiations.
Is Tom_W1987 cut and pasting from a Russian crib sheet? Sure sounds like it.
No, but if we're actually leaving - I want to see us using every bargaining chip available to us to improve our position. Even if that means taking morally dubious stances, playing dirty or walking away from military allies.
Out of Europe, the worst thing for us is a strong, politically unified continent.
Mattjg, wasn't going that far, just lose workers, economy tanks that sort of thing. Gibraltar can't exist in isolation of Spain. In the same way HK couldn't exist in isolation of the new territories and was handed back in totallity when there was no legal demand.
Not that the UK could do otherwise really, The UK couldn't defend HK against China should they have chosen to reclaim by force.
No, but if we're actually leaving - I want to see us using every bargaining chip available to us to improve our position. Even if that means taking morally dubious stances, playing dirty or walking away from military allies.
So you wish to damage all our neighbours economically, and increase the chance of war?
How do we, or even just you, benefit from that outcome?
So you wish to damage all our neighbours economically, and increase the chance of war?
The EU is too rational, they haven't got the balls for a shooting war. On the other hand, the British really aren't rational as we saw with Brexit..... a certain degree of irrationality on our part might improve our bargaining power. 😆
HK, what a perfect example as we return to delusions of Empire
let millions starve to death in India, so we can grow enough opium to flood china and get HK for a steal
truly our finest hour
certainly it seems to have inspired Deviant to revel in our newfound splendid isolationism
😆
Thx for info on HK chaps. One learns.
Mattjg, wasn't going that far, just lose workers, economy tanks that sort of thing. Gibraltar can't exist in isolation of Spain.
But it did, didn't it - at times of poor relations with Spain - by trading with Morocco.
Tom_W1987
haven't got the balls,
or
[img] http://www.cwgc.org/dbImage.ashx?id=10917 [/img]
Poziers, 14000 odd graves
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neuvals 44,000
and plenty more go across northern France and Belgium and just have a wonder round a war cemetery.
or i could mention the 700,000 Russians who died at Leningrad
The other thing to remember, why did the first world war start.
little things can escalate out of all proportion.
I have to believe Tom_W was just being flippant re "shooting war". I have to.
Deviant - no such thing as "british" fishing waters. Scottish or English / welsh
this is one reason why May is so desperate to hold off a scottish independence referendum. The scottish fishing waters are controlled by Westminster and have been used as bargaining chips before to the detriment of Scotland. Its one of the few bargaining chips she has and if it looks like Westminster will lose control of them then she loses that bargaining chip
Germany does it's best to stay out of everything and are scared of their own shadow. Spain pulled out of Iraq/Afghanistan after their first terrorist incident - and France? Probably too scared of being sunk in port again by us, like last time in 1940. 😈
Really, they are all so scared of that period of insanity that the only people likely to press the button and actually start it - is us. We need to move on from that way of thinking and exploit the fact that Europeans are still paralysed by that fear. Unless Russia annexes Poland, I doubt WW3 is going to kick off - even then, I think given the current US administration the response would be "who gives a ****" and the world would carry on as normal.
Find it hard to believe some of the rhetoric I am reading on the last couple of pages. It is as if the world has suddenly gone mad. Destabilise Europe! Our army is bigger than theirs! Fight them on the beaches... blah blah blah.
What I really cannot get my head round is how it came to be an US 7 THEM situation. WE WERE THE EU. It was a union of states, of which we were up there as one of the most important. We wanted new wide ranging laws, we got them. We wanted concessions, we got them. The mistake was selling any unpopular laws here as being forced upon us by the EU. It was all a red herring. WE WERE THE EU. There wasn't law or regulation that came out of Brussels we couldn't have vetoed had we wished. However, it suited us greatly to use the EU as a rod to beat the common man and he didn't like it, as the referendum result shows.
But please stop with blaming everything on some sort of Omnipotent EU institution up there in the sky which forced its will on poor little UK because that just wasn't the case at all. I will say it again. We were an integral part of the EU, if not a key part of it. And we benefited hugely from being it the club, as did every other member.
I agree welshfarmer - but it doesn't look like we're staying now and out of the EU, it would appear, that they want nothing more than to be our competitors. We now need to transition to that mindset as well.
So, why shouldn't we be cosying up to Trump and Putin in response?
Possibly because Trump and Putin are the kind of arseholes I wouldn't even want to share a pint with?
So what?
Since when has that ever mattered to trade and national interest, notice that we trade with tonnes of ****ing arseholes - in fact most of the world is governed by abject arseholes - those that aren't are a tiny minority.
OK, I prefer to align myself ideally with the ideologies of moderates. Nowhere is perfect but the main European nations are closer to that than either Trump's America or Putin's Russia.
Which is why I voted remain.
Where are you getting your information on what the rEU27 want Tom?. I only watch the German news on TV and I have seen none of this seeming aggressive posturing coming out of Brussels. What I will say is that 4 or 5 programmes a day will have some sort of in depth analysis or debate on the whats, whys and what ifs of Brexit. All done in a mature and non-sensational way. I don't see any of that on UK media (though I only really get English language news from the Internet and BBC radio). All I see are soundbites and Jeremy Kyle type arguments. A bit like on here really 😉
Tom_W1987 is a slightly more eloquent version of chewkw.
It's obvious that a lot of people- on here and elsewhere- are totally happy for Britain to be damaged, as long as we do at least as much damage to Europe. It's the mindset of the really drunk guy at the bus stop, "you should see the other guy". I've no idea how anyone sober arrives at that level though
They say a drunk man speaks the sober mans' mind. So perhaps it is there, just below the surface in many?
I'll just leave this here. This is what most of Mainland Europe think about when they think of the union of 28 states. This is why it is so important that people stop pontificating and aggressive gesturing. It is in no-ones interest to see a return to the past. The UK will not be seen in a favourable light in future history if Brexit was, in some way, to lead Europe back into the dark days of war. And anyone who thinks it could never happen is kidding only themselves.
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The UK will not be seen in a favourable light in future history if Brexit was, in some way, to lead Europe back into the dark days of war. And anyone who thinks it could never happen is kidding only themselves.
Our only mistake in the past was actually getting involved in their idiotic wars, when we could have sat on the sideline and watched with utter bemusement.
It's obvious that a lot of people- on here and elsewhere- are totally happy for Britain to be damaged, as long as we do at least as much damage to Europe. It's the mindset of the really drunk guy at the bus stop, "you should see the other guy". I've no idea how anyone sober arrives at that level though
It's not that, it's that we should be calling their bluff by using things that may hurt us as well as the EU. The outrage over the security "blackmail" was hilarious, what did the EU expect if they weren't willing to offer leniency on things like starting trade talks with non-EU members, making it publicly known that they wanted to slice up the city and roping Gibraltar into this?
Indeed, the lovely EU that people seem to want to remain part of are showing a vindictive streak a mile wide and a greed I'd not yet seen from them before....lovely organisation of mature countries dealing with this situation like petulant teenagers.
Good riddance to disorganised rubbish.
They demand billions in 'divorce settlement' then cry foul when the UK retorts with threatening to remove UK funded defences based on EU soil.
You couldn't make it up.
Go back about 6 month in this thread, and you will see the predictions that this is exactly how many would react once negotiations start… whipped into a frenzy of EU blaming and hatred by the UK media. It'll get far worse if our government fails to move towards a deal… there is little chance the blame will fall on UK shoulders.
What we're now seeing (as evidenced by the likes of deviant) is how it feels when you start to lose control of a negotiation. All along the EU has said "Trigger A50 and then we'll talk". All the bluster so far has been from ill informed Brexiteers here while the EU has (relatively) kept counsel. Now that A50 has been triggered, the EU has broken cover and started talking, [i]they're[/i] the petulant teenagers? 😆
You couldn't make this shit up. It's all the EU's fault. I'd love to live in the world where I believed that - it must be kind of comforting. Bless.
Actually, I don't think the EU do have it together - I'm inclined to agree with Deviant.
Here is Juncker, showing himself up to be as big a buffoon as Trump, if they are saying things like this - then we've touched a nerve. Maybe we should press it some more?
I don't really care for the "it's the EU's/Brexshitters fault" anymore, I voted remain - as we'd have been better off in, free movement of people is good for business and it's best to be part of a big negotiating bloc in todays world - but we're leaving.
You'll have to forgive me for not even clicking an express link Tom. They've told more lies about the EU than the STW Brexit Brigade put together.
Btw, is Juncker doing any of the negotiations? I had it that is was some guy called Guy who is the chief negotiator. And I dunno, he seems quite switched on and not quite as easy to paint as a figure of fun. Juncker is an easy bogeyman target and I'm by no means a fan, but he's not the one we'll be dealing with.
I'd hazard that the EU are more than happy for us to constantly satirise him while they go about their business. It's not like our three Brexiteers are anything of which to be proud.
Explain the divorce settlement then?.... The UK didn't sign up to a minimum period, we're not leaving before a stipulated contract date thus incurring penalties....the EU simply wants the UK gravy train to keep running as long as possible....erm, no thanks.
Likewise stating demands and then acting surprised when the UK threatens to withdraw military support for EU member States it's leaving.
Did the EU honestly think the UK would bend over and accept any old garbage tossed our way!?
It's about give and take and the EU are going to have to relearn that as they've been busy playing at being a superstate for the last however many years in a largely unopposed manner..... They'll also have to find someone else to bring in the UK's former contributions, that's not going down well at the moment either.
They're going to have a rough ride of it too.
Btw, is Juncker doing any of the negotiations? I had it that is was some guy called Guy who is the chief negotiator. And I dunno, he seems quite switched on and not quite as easy to paint as a figure of fun. Juncker is an easy bogeyman target and I'm by no means a fan, but he's not the one we'll be dealing with.
I get this - what I mean though is that I think Junckers loose mouth is a good barometer of the fears people are muttering in the various corridors of EU institutions.
I don't read the express either, it was just the first google hit for the video.
They're going to have a rough ride of it too.
You keep drinking the cool-aid. The talk of you and your likes is the kind of talk that'll get us through these negotiations.
Look, it's all just bluff for now - a settlement will be reached. It'll be worse for both parties than what we had before. And we'll have to live with it, unless we change our mind, and I don't see that happening when every failure on our part will be sucked up by Brexiteers as the EU's fault.
Explain the divorce settlement then?
And then explain why we even need it ....its not like we aren't leaving and didn't the headmistress say no deal is better than a bad deal might as well burn down the house and say ....sod it you can stick your bill
I get this - what I mean though is that I think Junckers loose mouth is a good barometer of the fears people are muttering in the various corridors of EU institutions.
Hey, I agree, the leaders of the EU (not just the bureaucrats in Brussels and elsewhere, but Merkel, Hollande and others] are worried about the destabilising effect of Brexit. It'll be interesting to see the balance between protectionism and stability that they wish to find over the next few years. I'd also say that we're in for a long post-March '19 transitional period. There's no way we'll get all this hammered out in two years. That'll be all the EU's fault too.
We're ****ed if we get dumped out on WTO. I'd really urge anyone to read up just what WTO would mean for us - and to lobby whatever politician they can to ensure it doesn't happen.
Explain the divorce settlement then?
We ordered dessert but are leaving after the main course. EU expects us to pay for the dessert.
tjagain - MemberWhoosh - the point you don't want to recognise is that for trade purposes the EU is a single entity.
You still don't get it, and you are entirely wrong.
I do not buy my champagne from the Swedes.
If you don't get that then I am at a loss.
One last chance.
We do not trade with the EU. Geddit?
Look around your house, open your fridge, look upon your driveway. None of the things you're looking at were bought from the EU.
💡
I simply can't make it clearer, and quite frankly have a waning desire to.
You don't buy you champagne from France either.
You buy it from a trader.
Countries are no more single entities than the EU is.
You don't buy you champagne from France either.
You buy it from a trader.
One does not buy champagne at all that is why one has staff....
I thought I'd actually have to do something for my plan to work, but it appears to be starting to work on its own.
Interesting that a load of Brexies have come back out of the woodwork in the last day or so.
Welcome back, it's nice to have your considered, eloquent and erudite points of view shared.
I find myself not always following the absolute detail so if you could be as specific as possible, I'd be most interested.
It's sometimes those details that make the difference between a ludicrous unworkable idea and a thing of genius.
Mike - my apologies of course. Personally I don't much care for fizzy wine, a decent claret is far more my thing.
They'll also have to find someone else to bring in the UK's former contributions
No problem, send a bill as with Norway or Switzerland.
Unfortunately I expect UK negotiators to adopt similar attitudes to the EU hating Brexies on this thread. There really is some offensive jingoistic stuff on this page which is going to lead to a very hard Brexit if used by negotiators.
The Brexit agenda consists of making Britain more competitive through fiscal, social and environmental dumping. It's in the interest of none of the 27 to let those anti-social and unfair practices negatively impact EU businesses with higher standards.
When the Brexie press goes on about selling to other markets, don't forget the EU members can too. When the Brexies go on about buying from other markets, the EU members can too.
A quarter of British food comes from the EU, you buy it so you know it's good stuff. Now consider the American stuff that finds its way onto your dining table.
If we treat the EU as an enemy it will become an enemy.
God help us how did we come to this.
Has no leave voter a clue about 20thC European history?
I despair.
Look at a map guys. We are surrounded by the EU, or closest neighbour in every direction.
We have to get along.
You think the US give a toss about us? Not for a moment.
Who else?
Morocco? Turkey? Russia?
Strewth.
Unfortunately I expect UK negotiators to adopt similar attitudes to the EU hating Brexies on this thread. There really is some offensive jingoistic stuff on this page which is going to lead to a very hard Brexit if used by negotiators.
You think it's bad reading it, you should try living in it.
sbob - simply wrong. Look at the statement in response to the a 50 letter
the EU acts aas one on trade and no country by country nor case by case negotiations are possible legally. We negotiate with the EU on trade - and yes any goods produced in the EU are EU goods. Thats the whole point of the single market
Deviant -they are not being vindictive at all
What they are doing is reaffirming the principles of the single market and pointing out that the westminster governments opening position is simple nonsense.
Unfortunately to many folk including the brits doing the negotiations have taken wishful thinking for the truth and when disabused of this notion cry foul
On cars. the EU will not allow the UK to undercut by either state subsidies as in the case of Nissan or by reducing costs by reducing labour costs or environmental standards. Its not protectionism to ensure no dumping or undercutting by countries not meeting the standards of the single market. Its about ensuring a level playing field for anyone selling into the single market. The UK will still be able to sell cars into the single market just it has to be on the same terms as any other seller in the single market
What we're now seeing (as evidenced by the likes of deviant) is how it feels when you start to lose control of a negotiation. All along the EU has said "Trigger A50 and then we'll talk". All the bluster so far has been from ill informed Brexiteers here while the EU has (relatively) kept counsel. Now that A50 has been triggered, the EU has broken cover and started talking, they're the petulant teenagers?You couldn't make this shit up. It's all the EU's fault. I'd love to live in the world where I believed that - it must be kind of comforting. Bless.
Spot on, its not been helped by the BrexiteersTories running around shouting 'cake & eat it' or May threatening security ties or that we become a tax haven before it even starts.
The EU have been explicit about the common principles of the EU being non negotiable and that we'd have to keep paying for all the projects that we agreed to start, we have signed contracts, eg Horizon 2020
Deviants position is a great example about how uninformed the public still are about the EU and how we interact with it.
Our joke of a press and cynical politicians are to blame for that.
I can cope with chewkw idiocy but not with Tom's stupidity, how do I block him?
Who was it that said something along the lines of:
"Those who don't know history will only repeat it", or something like that?
His lack of education and understanding of the world we live in can only continue to make me believe that Leavers are idiots.
not with Tom's stupidity,
In his defence I think he's only 14 🙂
I'm pretty sure Tom is playing devil's advocate/ trolling on this one, possibly alcohol fueled 😉
"or i could mention the 700,000 Russians who died at Leningrad"
That's an example of a United Europe bringing Peace!?
You love a selective
That's an example of a United Europe bringing Peace!?
No it was an example of nationalism leading to mass murder.
"That's an example of a United Europe bringing Peace!?"
Which lead me to pondering on events during the only other time I can recall Europe being united - 1812?
I think we should probably avoid historical examples to make this point, the only times it ever happened resulted in apocalyptic wars.
But neither Leningrad or 1812 are really example of a united Europe are they?
"But neither Leningrad or 1812 are really example of a united Europe are they?"
They are, and they're the only two times I can think of it happening.
...but even if you think that point is debatable, Barbarossa is an amusingly terrible example given the point being made. It's not like there wasn't any bloodshed at the beginning of the war to use as an example.
As we have just created a direct competitor with a block of 500m people just next door I don't really understand the Brexopaths surprise at the EU's position.
I am not sure what the EU can't do without little Englund if they have a mind to do so be it defence, security, trade or otherwise. I'm sure that Brexit will give them the impetus to put their house in order - then what - poor little Englund surplus to requirements.
Never mind.
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