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The Government campaigned to Remain. The current PM is "suddenly keen" to leave as that's what the result of the largest democractic excersize the UK has ever seen instructed her to do.
The referendum was fought with lies, deceit, fear and myopic viewpoints by both sides. Sure there was a vote, but that vote wasn't taken by the balanced educated views of the electorate.
You just as well as run two posters campaigns saying
>oooh fear the instant economic catastrophe and an eternity of xenophobic bigots
Or
>oooh, shut Johnny Foreigner out at the border and you'll have loadsa money, remember the glory days, eh, just like good old days
Can I nominate Gove to be a subject in one of these clinical trials please, and not someone who gets the placebo...
Only if he can find the time between working his 3 jobs with no health and safety protection and drinking poisoned water.
At least Henry VIII wanted to stay in Europe! 🙂
The white paper due on Thursday will set out how the government intends to repeal the 1972 European Communities Act and transplant laws that have force because of the UK’s membership of the EU into domestic law. It is expected that this will involve extensive use of “Henry VIII powers” – laws allowing ministers to change primary legislation (government bills) using secondary legislation (orders that go through parliament with little or no scrutiny).[/quote}
"The referendum was fought with lies, deceit, fear and myopic viewpoints by both sides. Sure there was a vote, but that vote wasn't taken by the balanced educated views of the electorate."
Bit like all votes then.
as that's what the result of the largest democractic excersize the UK has ever seen instructed her to do
Stop trying to claim that Leave has this overwhelming political mandate as requested by the people - you won by the skinniest of margins..
as that's what the result of the largest democractic excersize the UK has ever seen instructed her to do
And that just goes to show that democracy isn't the solution to every problem.
Bit like all votes then.
and most votes are rerun regularly.
Very good point.
Well there's a surprise!!
Meanwhile, the light begins to dawn - too late, suckers 🙁
Chris Williamson, chief business economist at IHS Markit, said pessimism had become more widespread across all age groups and income brackets.“Shortly after the referendum, the older generations and the very poorest families were the exceptions in considering Brexit to be beneficial to the long-term health of the economy. However, even these pockets of the population have now become pessimistic,” he added.
“The most marked turnaround is evident among the poorest paid, who have switched from being the most optimistic to now being the most downbeat.”
“The most marked turnaround is evident among the poorest paid, who have switched from being the most optimistic to now being the most downbeat.”
Well how did they think the rich were going to benefit? I really am at a loss sometimes. I am in a reasonably well paid job and have the fortune to have two passports so if it gets really **** i have options.
For those at the bottom, what did they think Brexit would solve. There issues have largely had nothing to do with Europe, they have been shafted by Westminster for decades. Further what do those at the bottom intend to do to escape? Emmigrate to Patagonia as the welsh and cornish miners did in decades past? Go work as brickies on the continent? Sign up as part of the East India company? etc?
The world has changed, you adapt or you die. But to take advantage you have to have some luck and money usually helps.
"and most votes are rerun regularly." True enough.
except in Yorkshire, we don't even get to have a referendum on getting out of the UK. Oh no I'm back in the loop, got to stop this.
I'd mentioned this on this thread already, but Andrew Rawnsley recently wrote a piece saying that the less mental elements of the Tory party are seriously concerned about whats going to happen as this all unravells over the next few years.
What are people going to do - how will they react - when the true scale of how they were lied too and deceived, and the full extent to which they're about to be bent over by the right wing, uber-capitalist, bonkers wing of the party, dawns on the working classes?
That that pesky 'red tape' the Brexshitters were on about actually meant employment rights, environmental controls, and god knows what else..... all the other things they'd complacently taken for granted for years, but were actually hard-won as part of the post-war settlement, and underwritten by Europe! And are now about to be gleefully torn up by this shower of self-serving ****s!!!!
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What are people going to do - how will they react - when the true scale of how they were lied too and deceived, and the full extent to which they're about to be bent over by the right wing, uber-capitalist, bonkers wing of the party, dawns on the working classes?
In a neatly and vinegar-sharp ironic way they will probably riot and destroy their own local areas - only this time physically rather than economically.
This really is the kind of stuff that would be genuinely hilarious if it wasn't actually happening. We used to satirise stuff like this, but now the satirists would be first against the wall for being 'elitist' if the masses of Brexiteers got their way!
Whats going to add to the tinderbox that awaits is the fact that, as Matthew D'ancona points out in today's Guardian [url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/27/brexiteers-immigration-promises-unravelling ]The Brexiteers’ immigration promises are unravelling fast[/url]
The one thing they promised to deliver - reduced immigration - is the one thing that they have absolutely no intention of delivering. Their paymasters still demand their ready supply of cheap labour, after all.
So the dog-whistle racism, they so cynically exploited is likely to come back and bite them hard on the arse, when their promises evaporate one-by-one into the ether, while all the things that no-one mentioned - their true agenda - becomes more obvious. No wonder they've gone to such lengths to shut down the debate, and prevent any form of oversight or scrutiny. I doubt they'll even bother to try and negotiate reduced immigration, but they'll be drawing up a long list of 'things about to be jettisoned... the minimum wage? Maternity rights? Sick pay? Environmental controls? Any regulation on business and the banks?
Its going to kick off, royally!
What are people going to do - how will they react
They will blame immigration, obviously.
The main parties will then have to double down on the anti-immigration rhetoric for votes.
It doesn't take a clairvoyant to see this.
Yebbut the tories have previously always allowed mass immigration (to keep the business wing happy) while blaming the EU (to keep the racists happy). After brexit they will have to make a choice.
Indeed. The contradiction is totally unsustainable. So there's no way they plan on doing anyhting to alter mass migration. Because the people paying the Tory parties bills, won't let them, and they've got lots of other demands that are far higher priority. None of which are going to do any favours to the majority of people who've been conned into voting for this nonsense.
I expect this is all going to unravel pretty bloody quickly once the serious business starts this week
Stop trying to claim that Leave has this overwhelming political mandate as requested by the people - you won by the skinniest of margins..
The brexshitters poured so much effort into the referendum, they still seem to be fighting that battle even though narrowly won, "We won, get over it!" I keep hearing.
Unfortunately by going "all in"(lying) on the referendum they have nothing left for next two years. They will lose the war.
The last thing the government is going to do is abolish the minimum wage, if they did, the governments life would be measured in days - it would be the poll tax all over again.
It's just that they may cut back on the raises promised.
thecaptain - Member
Yebbut the tories have previously always allowed mass immigration (to keep the business wing happy) while blaming the EU (to keep the racists happy). After brexit they will have to make a choice.
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Unfortunately by going "all in"(lying) on the referendum they have nothing left for next two years. They will lose the war
Not really - we will still have left the EU. Of course there will be some collateral damage, but WGAS about them? It's just poor people, after all.
but WGAS about them
I would, but I'm afraid the schardenfreude is going to be too great to resist this time.
I hope when they do riot, they get called "feral vermin" by Henley-upon-Thames living, shop owning, Brexit voting Sloan rangers on national TV - like the London rioters did.
The last thing the government is going to do is abolish the minimum wage, if they did, the governments life would be measured in days - it would be the poll tax all over again.
Everyone told Fatcha what would happen if she introduced the Poll Tax. She still went right ahead and did it though.
Right now I see a bunch of ludicrously over-confident, pompous, vainglorious idiots, totally detached from reality, high and giddy on their own 'victory', who are listening to absolutely no-one, egged on by a rabid hyperbolic press, behaving as if they have a mandate from the whole country to do what they bloody well like.
You think that because something is absolutely insane, that means this lot won't do it? Have you listened to them? They're ****ing unhinged, the lot of them!
The whole thing has been absolutely mental from the day Dave announced the referendum, onwards. And the direction of travel is to head further through the looking glass. Why on earth expect reason and logic at this point down the line?
If they don't reduce migration, people will still blame immigrants, only it'll be the government's fault that they are here and the government won't have a scapegoat.
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nah. they'll still find a way of blaming 'foreigners'. it's a ruse that's worked so well for so long.
The last thing the government is going to do is abolish the minimum wage, if they did, the governments life would be measured in days - it would be the poll tax all over again.
You don't need to abolish it, you just need to be a bit more creative.
There were wage councils, they were slowly abolished, you could set a per sector minimum wage. You can use Inflation to make the minimum wage worthless.
And to use the boiling a frog analogy, do it slowly and no one will notice.
People worry about foreigners coming here and taking their jobs. Personally I am more worried about foreigners coming over here and taking our country, bit by bit.....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39410075
The Govt won't get rid of the minimum wages, at least not while welfare/benefits are as they are currently, that is why Osborne raised them - to reduce the social costs of needing to 'top up'.
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/26/starmer-to-call-for-united-opposition-if-brexiters-fail-tough-tests ]https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/26/starmer-to-call-for-united-opposition-if-brexiters-fail-tough-tests[/url]
Fine words from Keir Starmer 🙄
Where the **** were you lot when you should have been out there highlighting how many decades of workers rights would be rolled back and how little immigration would be affected?
The only thing labour currently has going for it (admittedly a big thing) is that it wasn't the party that caused this debacle.
They wouldn't be able to do any better in the 'negotiations' or 'national humiliation' as it really ought to be known.
In two days time we are going to step off an economic cliff and there's no one else to blame.
What we need to remember is that the EU is founded and run on social-democratic principles which pander, in the main, to the "Mittlestand" or middle classes. This is a good thing in my opinion. However, the traditional Labour movement can see power slipping away from them as peoples lot improve and they embrace more middle-of-the-road politics (New Labour, Lib-Dems, Greens, Nats). What better way to see a return to the power of the unions than to leave the EU and give business a free reign to crap on the working man. Who needs an equal & fair society when we can have an "us and them" one where the Labour Party can once again be a force to be reckoned with.
Or am I talking bolleaux
Fine words from Keir Starmer
Politicking. He's squaring the arguably necessary stance of supporting Brexit (to get the numpties on-side) with the need to actually start to oppose the government and try and support sensible ideas.
Brexit wouldn't be all that bad if we were sensible and kept single market access along with labour movement and everything else. But he's not using terms like 'soft Brexit' that were rubbished during the campaign.
Shows he's trying to do the political manoeuvring thing, unlike his boss.
Edited for clarity
welshfarmer - Member
What we need to remember is that the EU is founded and run on social-democratic principles which pander, in the main, to the "Mittlestand" or middle classes. This is a good thing in my opinion. However, the traditional Labour movement can see power slipping away from them as peoples lot improve and they embrace more middle-of-the-road politics (New Labour, Lib-Dems, Greens, Nats). What better way to see a return to the power of the unions than to leave the EU and give business a free reign to crap on the working man. Who needs an equal & fair society when we can have an "us and them" one where the Labour Party can once again be a force to be reckoned with.Or am I talking bolleaux
It's an interesting theory and I can see the logic in your idea, but it's a big jump to belive traditional labor are that clever, or that utterly evil..
Labour aren't that scheming, they no longer have the sophistication or cynicism for that.
They totally underestimated the bigotry and stupidity amongst their 'bread and butter' supporters. Because in the end, self-interest will prevail. Never forget that the militant dockworkers came out in support of Enoch Powell of all people. Bigotry is powerful.
It's good to see Labour starting to move on this. Having waived through A50 unamended - which they couldn't stop anyway - they now have a clear field to start being a pain in the ass and eventually get this stopped. (I hope this analysis has some validity!).
It's early days. A lot can happen in 2 years.
If this was WW2, right now would be Dunkirk.
Why isn't Keir Starmer leader?
I think its fair to say many of the traditional labour voters have moved on from solidarity to blaming immigrants for everything rather than global economics.They totally underestimated the bigotry and stupidity amongst their 'bread and butter' supporters
However most labour voters did vote remain [65% iirc]
I always wonder about that statistic. Presumably lots of used-to-be-labour voters changed to ukip or tory and then voted leave.
i had a day off today and initially was planning to take a big bag of cameras to London to shoot the City. Last Wednesday made me think people may be a bit on edge so I popped over to Bristol and with a nice forecast I left the cams and just took the SS roadie.
Nice day out and on the train back met a Romanian deaf mute ( German Measles, handicapped from birth). We managed to communicate adequately. He liked my bike. Liked the pics of my other bikes, and also thought my dogs look adorable.
He also thinks immigration should be stopped, all Muslims should be deported and the death penalty should be re-introduced.
Can I change my vote to remain please.
EDIT: only in the sense of not wanted to be associated with racist scum. Obvs I still want the ruling elite to understand that their ways of controlling our lives don't sit happily with me.
Suzanne Evans! Suzanne bloody Evans!
When, oh when, did we stop taking piss out of people like this and dismissing them?
A lot of people think the Middle Ages were all bad, but some things, the stocks for instance, were not a bad idea in some ways.
Look at her. Just look and listen to the bilge that is spouting out of her guffawing cakehole. Then be ashamed of yourselves.
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I have to admit to a quick edit. To anyone that spotted my error it was a simple case of mixed buffoonery.
you took back control!
I have to admit to a quick edit. To anyone that spotted my error it was a simple case of mixed buffoonery.
Was this a ruder word for "cakehole"?
[I]If this was WW2, right now would be Dunkirk. [/I]
I think the attack on Stalingrad is a better event, and we're Germany... 😉
Why isn't Keir Starmer leader?
Just a matter of time
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Obvs I still want the ruling elite to understand that their ways of controlling our lives don't sit happily with me
Interesting reason to vote leave.
I voted remain because I don't want OUR ruling elite (Westminster, the rich businesspeople) to have free reign over us. I see Brussels as a moderating force in British politics.
agree with molly but i also fail to see how anyone thinks either way did anythign to "the ruling elite" who will be the least affected by this change
If anythign they " bring back freedom" so have even more power
It has not made Tories go oh hang on a minute this free market plan of ours is just not working lets do something radically different.
Many of us would share your sentiments few of us will see how this vote helped achieve your stated aim. I am one of them.
Just watched the QT Brexit Special.
Impressed with Nick Clegg, his passion was very clear to see.
Nothing I've seen or heard is making me believe that we're anything other than bollox'd though, it's going to be a disaster.
I think there is now an awareness in politics across Europe that just saying 'this is what is best for you' is no longer seen as the way to present policy to the populace. Maybe a bit more sharing and less showboating. We shall see.
Maybe a bit more sharing and less showboating.
Oh yes. I wished Europe would change. But I wanted to be in it to change it and benefit from it.
I don't like the way my wife leaves dirty dishes full of water in the sink, but that doesn't mean I want a divorce. The relationship is worth more than that.
So speaking to her to date hasn't changed things. What are you doing to make her change her behaviour more in line with your desires?
again agreed but why do you think this vote would result in this?Maybe a bit more sharing and less showboating
What was it the nature of boris gove and farage that kindled this new hope?
I cannot see why you think this vote would lead to that, noble aim that it is.
I really thought we wouldn't 'win' but the size of the leave vote would trigger some uncertainty.
Hey ho. Shouldn't play with dangerous things without the safety catch on.
What are you doing to make her change her behaviour more in line with your desires?
In a relationship it is give and take. You don't 'make' someone change their behaviour.
If you do then you must have a relationship bordering on abusive....
“It is not possible to overestimate the threat the UK press poses to reaching a deal..........,” said one diplomat.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/28/brexit-uk-backing-away-from-threat-to-leave-with-no-deal-say-eu-diplomats
There, in a few words is our problem. Government by Mail, Express, Star and Telegraph.
Smile Breshitters, you have one less immigrant 😀
What are you doing to make her change her behaviour more in line with your desires?
Metaphor stretched too far. International diplomacy is not like talking to your wife 🙂
If this was WW2, right now would be Dunkirk.
Yup, we're leaving.
Maybe a bit more sharing and less showboating
... you've seen the vainglorious, preening bunch of cockwombles in charge of negotiations, right? The ones doing absolutely everything in their power to ensure no oversight or consultation whatsoever?
How's this new inclusive 'sharing' political culture working out for you?
Somebody has most definitely 'Taken Back Control'. But it sure the **** isn't us!
Hahah I see the government are back tracking on immigration, likely to try and scramble out of the hole they have dug themselves - ie the future anti immigrant backlash mentioned in this thread.
There, in a few words is our problem. Government by Mail, Express, Star and Telegraph.
Don't worry, I'm sure we can expect a sober, considered and reasoned debate from "Newspaper of the Year" The Daily Mail:
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🙄
The Labour heartlands delivered Brexit for the Country. The strongest vote Leave constituencies where there and in a Referendum where every vote counts they where vital. Those in low paid or semi/unskilled have the most to loose from uncontrolled immigration and as we saw in the recent piece from Leicester prior generations of immigrants where strongly Leave as they see and experience the impact on their livelihoods.
WTO: Barnier said at the weekend WTO tariffs would cause a major economic problem for Europe. Also Newsnight pointed out that the "party line" being held by EU 27 was already cracking under the pressure.
Been loving David Davies's line "we will honour our obligations" to the EU. Yup and as per House of Lords those obligations are lefally ZERO 🙂
Looking forward to a celebration tomorrow.
Don't worry, I'm sure we can expect a sober, considered and reasoned debate from "Newspaper of the Year" The Daily Mail:
****ing hate The Mail..
I see the government are back tracking on immigration, likely to try and scramble out of the hole they have dug themselves
Standard modern Tory party technique. State position more extreme than what they actually want, then move back on it to make what they actually wanted all along look like a reasonable compromise and working together.
Cameron started doing this, seems like May is continuing it.
Those in low paid or semi/unskilled have the most to loose from uncontrolled immigration
We don't have uncontrolled immigration?
How you can spin yet another humiliating climbdown as a win is quite unbelievable Jamba
WTO tarrifs on trade with the UK would hurt the EU a bit, it would destroy the UK
Accepting there will be no reduction in EU immigrants is a huge humiliating climbdown
Accepting there is no plan if talks founder is a humiliating climbdown
changing the line from "no deal is better than a bad deal" is a huge humiliating climbdown
"eddiebaby - Member
So speaking to her to date hasn't changed things. What are you doing to make her change her behaviour more in line with your desires?"
What I wouldn't do is divorce her because of dirty dishes and leave our kids to deal with the fallout.
P.S. Is anyone else having problems quoting?
The Labour heartlands delivered Brexit for the Country.
This is not how I see it. There were so many cohorts, and the margin was so fine, one could say any of them delivered Brexit. One could even say the non-voters delivered Brexit (I read that non voters were 2-1 remain), or the polls that influenced their non-vote delivered it.
The cohorts I think of a lot are the old - broadly leave - vs the young - broadly remain. This matters to me for 2 reasons, firstly those with less skin in the game shafted those whose best years look to be blighted by a vote to return to a golden age that never really existed, and secondly it's a dynamic that moves measurably as the oldies fall off the end of the conveyor belt and the young join it. That could turn out to be very important.
tjagain - Member
How you can spin yet another humiliating climbdown as a win is quite unbelievable Jamba
the jambaverse is a strange place indeed
I read in the Guardian today [url= https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/21/only-we-care-if-our-country-succeeds-or-fails-welsh-readers-on-post-brexit-era ]letters from Welsh readers[/url]. Several of them voted leave to shake up the UK and try and create constitutional change for the benefit of Wales.
@molgrips you posted that you voted Remain to keep the Tories in check. I think that was quite a common rationale. Hardly a compelling argument FOR the EU is it ? That was the fundamental issue with Remain, no one really has much to say about the EU which is positive
Aye the way you endlessly played the racism card re immigration was indeed such a positive messsage.
Jambyfacts are endless arent they top three were tory Why do you keep making up "facts"? Dont you ever gt tired and just think "perhaps I ought to google this thing first as my track record on getting things correct is rather lowThe Labour heartlands delivered Brexit for the Country. The strongest vote Leave constituencies where there
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38797243 ]Reality Check: Are the strongest Leave and Remain constituencies Labour?[/url]
That was the fundamental issue with Remain, no one really has much to say about the EU which is positive
They did, its just that sensational bollox sells better
The lies spun by Vote Leave, lies Cummings and other Brexiters on here have bragged about and you have reinforced by consistently playing fast and loose with the truth on here.
the youth, who overwhelmingly voted to remain, betrayed by the brexiters will not look back fondly on the people that dimminshed their country and opportunities
no one really has much to say about the EU which is positive
No, nothing positive at all....
[url=
no one really has much to say about the EU which is positive
Got plenty.
Good grief, after all this time, you say that.
That's not disagreement, that's wilful denial.
Positives of the EU
Working time directive even if the UK watered it down
Controls on pollution
Controls on water quality
Freedom of movement
Unbiased non political court of last resort
Human rights
Barrier free trade
@molgrips you posted that you voted Remain to keep the Tories in check. I think that was quite a common rationale. Hardly a compelling argument FOR the EU is it ?
No, to keep any national govt in check.
And I think it is a compelling argument; for a supra-national organisation that is removed from the fighting and short-termism of national politics.
Take environmental legislation - any government enacting strict environmental policies will likely be going against the interests of companies operating in that country, and making them less competitive against countries that don't enact such strict laws. So clearly such things need to apply to all competing countries to be effective.
@molgrips you posted that you voted Remain to keep the Tories in check. I think that was quite a common rationale. Hardly a compelling argument FOR the EU is it ?
Well everything's relative, isn't it?
One look at these shower of evil, self-serving ****s, and what they're cooking up with their mates, and I think its the most compelling argument you could possibly raise.
In the past you could have looked to the Labour party to do that, but.... well....
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According to the Grauniad they're privately climbing foqn on Maybots genius idea of walking away without a deal as well....
Lolz.
Something tells me that May thinks there will be a threat to her leadship in a couple of years time - from the Tory moderates.