[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

[url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf ]Here you go[/url] and [url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/517415/treasury_analysis_economic_impact_of_eu_membership_web.pdf ]here[/url]

But the Government did do an analysis at the time of the referendum, it was pretty negative, but still we voted out, so out we go.

so thats why Davies hasnt bothered to do any analysis, so that the SNP cant use it as ammo for the indy referndum, 😉

Or is it that this frightening task is beyond him?
(or anyone in government, [u]single[/u] sector projects like NHS contracts, heathrow expansion, NHS IT system, universal credit rollout, MOD purchasing overrun by decades and £billions, yet this bumbling old geezer is going to get it all nailed in a few months...)

Ta mefty

I thought you meant something different to that.

Well I've spent a happy day with civil servants in Whitehall taking the p out of government ministers.

I must say they have very little respect for quite a few of those ministers.

DD is hardly going to sit on TV and say "yes the analysis of WTO exit is potentially very bad for the UK economy" the man is for too shrewd for that.

The numbers will have been crunched by the treasury, it's likley that Hammonds £60 billion is just the "seed" money to deal with the initial fall out. I don't doubt that a WTO exit will ultimately get fixed (probably not by the incumbent muppets) but we will endeavour made to suffer both directly and indirectly. Makes me chuckle when the Brexiteers trumpet £240m investment by toyota in the UK as if its a panacea (most of that investment be "unbolted" in a matter of weeks)

All these little investments (toyota nissan etc) are designed to create a dependency on those organisations by the government, the fact is these organisations contain significantly more talent that our government.

That leaked Brexit tour schedule looks punishing

[img] [/img]

DD is hardly going to sit on TV and say "yes the analysis of WTO exit is potentially very bad for the UK economy" the man is for too shrewd for that.

But that explanation would imply that he was lying to a Parliamentary Committee. I'm not sure that that's an explanation he'd like to become widely accepted.

I don't think he is lying about "him" doing the numbers in fact I think he is avoiding doing the numbers like the plague.

Last thing he needs is an "inhouse" Brexiteer report that says WTO is a bit shit

Well I've spent a happy day with civil servants in Whitehall taking the p out of government ministers.

I must say they have very little respect for quite a few of those ministers.

Respect generally has to be earned. The Brexiteers are patently a bunch of clueless muppets, waaaaaay out of their depth, and making it up as they go along, while desperately trying to avoid any oversight or scrutiny

I have raised this before but it continues to boil my ****

Theresa and the Brexiteers are wandering around calling for us all to work together to fix brexit?

Ok so if the Vote had been remain the vast majority of those voting to leave would have trundled along still getting yhe same rewards for the same efforts and those voting remain would have trundled along also - no serious effort or sacrifice required.

So it seems to me that the effort to fix brexit seems to fall on those who voted to remain (broad demographic statement I agree) it's not going to be pensioners, working poor or the filthy rich right.

So my feeling is a bit like having a randon stranger taking a shit in my house and me having to clean it up while the stranger looks on?

I am arriving at the point of view that this is not my doing, my fault or responsibility to fix. I have emotionally liked my front door (the back door is on the latch for a sharp exit)

oldmanmtb - Member
I don't think he is lying about "him" doing the numbers in fact I think he is avoiding doing the numbers like the plague.

Last thing he needs is an "inhouse" Brexiteer report that says WTO is a bit shit

This!

theres a great fear among the brexiters that the longer it drags on and is scrutinised the more likely the public are going to change their mind
which is why they are in such a rush to get A50 started and desperate to avoid any sort of parliamentary oversight or public consultation on brexit

TBH the last thing you can accuse them of is rushing to declare A50 - did dave not say the day after?
I agree they dont want parliament to have a say as they know they will most likely reject the deal as it will be terrible.

Granted they wont have a plan for WTO as it will show how disastrous this will be

I hope this is the reason rather than hubris has meant they have not imagined that they wont get what they want - they wont they have not a hope

TBH the last thing you can accuse them of is rushing to declare A50 - did dave not say the day after?

Meanwhile May keeps bleating on about a more united Great Britain - which is wishful thinking of the highest order. If we are in the EU half the population is apparently unhappy. If we are out of the EU half the population is apparently unhappy. That would make you think working out some consensus position would be advisable. Wouldn't it?

OldmanMTB - I have noted the various initiatives I've been involved with and the Brexy absenteeism on those initiatives already on this thread.
I have also challenged the Brexies on this thread to come forward and tell us what they are doing to make Britain great as someone put it.
The vast cacophony of silence suggests they aren't doing anything - but prove me wrong please Brexies.

She could have circumvented the court case and git ascent from parliament had she wished - it would have been faster and the outcome was hardly in doubt.

A50 will be triggered before the end of the month. That all seems pretty quick to me.

If the British people vote to leave, there is only one way to bring that about, namely to trigger article 50 of the treaties and begin the process of exit, and the British people would rightly expect that to start straight away.”

We could be half way to leaving by now so what has been done is many things but quick is not one of them

We could be half way to leaving by now

theres a great fear among the brexiters that the longer it drags on and is scrutinised the more likely the public are going to change their mind

I haven't spoken to a single Leaver who thinks this. Most are frustrated A50 hasn't been triggered sooner and there is a degree of mistrust that MPs won't follow through. What has not borne scruitiny in tje Project Armageddon nonesencpse of Remain. We had some more yesterday suggesting Brexit would substantially decrease cyber security. Lidicrous.

Not one of the "impact" assesments I have read includes any scenarios where we sign new trade deals with growth markets or where the eurozone unwinds and crashes Europe into a deep recession.

As per he Indy thread Brexit has the added benefit of killing the idea of an Independent Scotland stone dead.

Brexit has the added benefit of killing the idea of an Independent Scotland stone dead.

🙄

@oldman I think the point is that we would like everyone to accept the result and get on with their lives. Mefty and TeamHurtmore supported Remain but they are of the view that the decision is made and its best we make the most of the opportunities ahead.

I said right back at the start this would be a once only opportunity. We would NEVER be asked again. The only option for Leavers would be a UKIP Government. I suppose from a Remainers perspective the same is true, elect a Government with a manifesto commitment to re-join the EU

Wheras I am sure as are almost all commentators that
1) leaving the EU will be a complete disaster
2) If the vote was held again now the result would be different now its becoming more and more obvious to everyone what a disaster it will be.

for me we need to resist as hard as we can. Its the only possible thing we can do to prevent the disaster that will be leaving the EU and I want all my elected representatives to do everything they can to stop this disaster unfolding.

I haven't spoken to a single Leaver who thinks this.

I have. You need to speak to more people outside the religious zealot Brexy bubble. 😉

People related to farming mainly as the trade deals we might strike are quite worrying to them. (Farm payments weren't mentioned)

I think the point is that we would like everyone to accept the result and get on with their lives.

As per he Indy thread Brexit has the added benefit of killing the idea of an Independent Scotland stone dead.

The problem Jamba is that Brexies are not getting off their sorry behinds and doing anything to help this country.

Bunch of wreckers sadly.

Or prove me wrong and tell me which new initiatives to increase UK exports you are actively involved in. DIT stuff, UK SIN, proving training and insight to our foreign trade missions that sort of thing.

If you look at data rather than anecdote, the polls shows no change in heart, if anything they show a slightly stronger resolve. Likewise I haven't seen any commentators changing their view.

mefty - whereas I have seen the other quite clearly in the polls 😉 and people changing their minds although almost all political commentators and our elected representatives are already against leaving.

As per he Indy thread Brexit has the added benefit of killing the idea of an Independent Scotland stone dead.

Its statements like this that lead to folk just calling you jambyliar as the facts just do not support this claim
Its so silly even spicer would choose not to defend that and say ask the president
Its statements like this that make me thing you just troll as its just at odds with what is happening- even May has accepted their will be another vote she is only disputing when most folk would not consider that as having killed it

[url= https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/11/03/five-stages-grief-most-remain-voters-are-stuck-den/ ]THis is a good survey[/url]

[url= http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/britain-no-regrets-brexit-polling-8882527 ]Briton has no regrets about Brexit[/url]

[quote=mefty ]Briton has no regrets about Brexit

An article from September 16

And in the survey at the bottom

"Is Professor John Curtice right?"

Yes - 33%
No - 66%

😆

It is a John Curtis overview, polls have gone both ways but there is no consistent trend which suggests any remorse.

But that is a self selecting survey, statistically as useful as a chocolate teapot.

Given referenda involve leaving the house and voting, they are also self selecting Mefty.

Discuss

There is nothing to regret yet. Come back in 2 years time after asking the same question.

Discuss

It's referendums.

Fighting talk there Mefty.

Jamba as my mate Bob the Hartlepool fork lift truck driver is the perfect example voted out as he wants a £30k salary for moving palletts - he is going to sit on his arse and wait, he is not going to create jobs, start a business or f**g export. But just you wait get is gonna whine like * when it doesn't materialise. Hardly going to retrain as a Cyber security consultant

Why do you think referenda is the plural of referendum?

[quote=mefty ]But that is a self selecting survey, statistically as useful as a chocolate teapot.

I worked as a senior analyst for a market research company for many years. It's ALL bollocks, trust me.

In the same way that agenda is the plural of agendum.

One chlamydium I can live with, it's a bunch of chlamydia that starts to get a bit irritating.

referenda is the correct plural - its latin(?) root?

Referendums is accepted by many tho but its wrong.

Chambers Dictionary 2014 gives the plural as either referenda or referendums,so why are you arguing ?

Ah, but agendum is a noun in Latin, referendum is a gerund, nouns have plurals, gerunds - verbal nouns or -ing words - don't. So in Latin referendum is a word that can't have a plural so referenda is just made up by people who aren't as well educated as they think they are. (You could try and argue that referenda is a plural gerundive, adjectival verb, but then the singular would be referendus.)

god not this referendum was not pluralisable in Latin as it was not a noun Either is acceptable [ due to usage] but the puritans prefer referendums.

TBH as its a latin word that is used in english applying a Latin rule to it seems a bit daft personally but either one is fine with meas we know what the person means and the whole point of words is to convey meaning and they both achieve that

Just reminded me, I need to buy a bag of pla to make a pudding this evening.

How about "referendum - and another one"?

god not this referendum was not pluralisable in Latin as it was not a noun Either is acceptable [ due to usage] but the puritans prefer referendums.

First, a man with your typographical history is perhaps not the best judge. But the more important point is that using classical plurals is a bit poncy in the first place and often unnecessary. Therefore using an incorrect one is unforgivable - it is all very well being poncy but you need to be correct.

First, a man with your typographical history is perhaps not the best judge

Don't be such a sneery twerp.

Don't be such a sneery twerp.

Junkyard wears his typos like a bodge of honour, I'm sure he wouldn't take a fence.

😀

Ah, but agendum is a noun in Latin, referendum is a gerund, nouns have plurals, gerunds - verbal nouns or -ing words - don't. So in Latin referendum is a word that can't have a plural so referenda is just made up by people who aren't as well educated as they think they are. (You could try and argue that referenda is a plural gerundive, adjectival verb, but then the singular would be referendus.)

I give in - you win. I have no idea what a gerund is apart from this
[img] [/img]

Mefty - the Oxford English Dictionary (which is good enough for me) allows either referenda or referendums and I happen to prefer referenda.
Clearly this is a matter of high principle and I think pistols at dawn are called for. I don't like large pistols or small ones so shall we use two media. 😉

(Even I don't like that plural of medium - and I suspect it is incorrect)

I'm looking forward to my gerania flowering this year.

[quote=mefty ]Don't be such a sneery twerp.
Junkyard wears his typos like a bodge of honour, I'm sure he wouldn't take a fence.

[s]True[/s] Flounces

I am lazy not ignorant - its nothing like it used to be and I do try harder these days.

[img] [/img]

Go Tarzan.

slowoldman - Member

Know you place Lord Heseltine you are Not above the will of the people and the role of Prime Minister.

Bow to the people will.
Bow to the Prime Minister.
Bow to Prime Minister May.

As intelligent and as senior (in govt) as you are you show no respect to the will of the people. Hence, you shall receive none.

You're fired.

Go in peace ... go stir your coffee.

Something tells me that was not so much an apology, but an eloquent way off saying eff off.
He knew damn well he'd probably get the boot for standing by his opinion, it's called integrity, something that May lacks.

Remember this? Curiously it's been removed from Google image search. I can't imagine why. Clearly she's more interested in keeping her nose in the trough than either doing the right thing or sticking to her principles.

[img] [/img]

mattyfez - Member
Something tells me that was not so much an apology, but a polite way off saying eff off.

He could have a better legacy but instead he got fired for trying to double cross the people will.

He will be remember as person who is willing to destroy the people will for his own objective.

He knew damn well he'd probably get the boot for standing by his opinion, it's called integrity, something that May lacks.

Remember this? Curiously it's been removed from Google image search. U can't imagine why. Clearly she's more interested in keeping her nose in the trough than either doing the right thing or sticking to her principles.

Yes, she might have started in a different direction but common sense prevail so she returns to integrity by leading the people with their will, while Lord Heseltine change from a person with integrity to one that back stabs his own party leader.

He has vanity, not integrity.

chewkw - You see the problem is that nobody wants his opinion but he insists on giving.

No one wants your opinion.

So she's allowed to change her stance for personal betterment, but denies the people she serves the same luxury?

The hypocrisy is strong with May.

[quote=mattyfez ]So she's allowed to change her stance for personal betterment, but denies the people she serves the same luxury?
The irony is strong.

Really ? Change her stance or respect the referendum outcome ? If you asked her if she'd have preferred the referendum to have turned out "remain" then do you think she'd say no ?

She's moved on, others seem stuck in the past.

kelvin - Member

chewkw - You see the problem is that nobody wants his opinion but he insists on giving.

No one wants your opinion.

Let's see if you can guess what that means. 😛

mattyfez - Member
So she's allowed to change her stance for personal betterment, but denies the people she serves the same luxury?

The hypocrisy is strong with May.

Where in this world can you find a politician that does not want personal betterment? Even living saints want personal betterment.

Of course she is allowed to change [b]to align with the will of the people[/b].

Yes it's genuine.
No it's not an apology - who would think one is required.
Oh and he does represent a large percentage of the population in this respect (including at one time, as he pointed out, the PM).

Of course she is allowed to change to align with the will of the people.

lest she become [b]an enemy of the people[/b] and sent to one the glorious Brexitland re-education and realignment camps

Let's be honest, it was the will of 52% of people, that's not the people, it's about half of them.

Many have had a time to think about it now, so the 'will of the people' is really unknown at the moment.

Maybe we should ask them. Give the electorate the same luxury she's given herself, and allow them to rethink thier stance.

slowoldman - Member
Yes it's genuine.
No it's not an apology - who would think one is required.
Oh and h[b]e does represent a large percentage of the population[/b] in this respect (including at one time, as he pointed out, the PM).

He assumed ... he just assumed.

My lefty commie colleague would rather eat his hat then to align his interest with the Lord and there are many of them (the like minded lefty) ... 😆

kimbers - Member
lest she become an enemy of the people ...

mattyfez - Member
Let's be honest, it was the will of 52% of people, that's not the people, it's about half of them.

Many have had a time to think about it now, so the 'will of the people' is really unknown at the moment.

Maybe we should ask them. Give the electorate the same luxury she's given herself, and allow them to rethink thier stance.

😆 That's not the way to run a country innit.

Oh come off it, 52% is margin of error territory. Especially in light of the media propaganda and lies.

It's not will and it's not a mandate. You can repeat that mantra as often as you like.

Only to those with different views to that of the majority ...

and in your glorious future they must be silenced, [b]all praise the brexit bureaucracy[/b]

You've spent too long in the Brockwell again chewkw.

I am lazy not ignorant - its nothing like it used to be and I do try harder these days.

This is true, I was going to make a comment on it, but succinctness overcame politeness.

The line "will of the people" is a joke with regard to that referendum as is anyone who thinks it gives a mandate for the ridiculous extremism the government is pedalling.

But you all know that already. Even Chewkw

I think nicely sums up or state of preparedness for the whole Brexit s***storm....

and it just keeps getting better.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-investment-idUKKBN16O280

Let's be honest, it was the will of 52% of people, that's not the people, it's about half of them.

Many have had a time to think about it now, so the 'will of the people' is really unknown at the moment.

Said many times before but that is exactly why a second referendum should occur when we are closer to seeing what sort of situation we will actually be in in 2 years.

First referendum was gauging peoples wishes based on many, many unknowns. Second would be based on a much clearer position.

Goes both ways. Remainers could change their mind too if the deal actually looks good. I am a remainer but only because it seems a waste of time, effort and money to bother leaving for no obvious gain. However, if some great deal was done I would think again.

Said many times before but that is exactly why a second referendum should occur when we are closer to seeing what sort of situation we will actually be in in 2 years.

Lurching to another situation which a different half of the population don't want is idiotic.

Apart from it would not be that. It would be clearly stated and understood what you were going to get from the vote, i.e. the complete opposite of the first vote.

Ah no I wasn't referring to taking another vote. I was making the point that accepting the current vote as binding leaves us in as bad a situation (in terms of acceptability by the public) as the present state. It's not another referendum that is needed, it's some proper leadership leading to a generally acceptable consensus position - which is what should be the outcome of such a close result in an advisory, non-binding referendum.

Well this is a all going swimmingly

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/18/nhs-eu-nurses-quit-record-numbers?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other