[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

. EU are the villans.

What a truly stupid thing to post

It would be idiotic and a dereliction of her duty to UK citizens abroad (who absolutely should be her priority) to make a unilateral declaration

THM leaf out of your own book, Jamba told a lie, he was challenged on it.

In this case it's absolutely the right term. Villans.

Really 🙄

Mol and peyote - you continue to ignore the fact that she chose to exercise her power and responsibility to avoid making this an issue. It was not the UK who rejected the idea in Jan in favour of making bargaining chips.

But keep making things up - the Brexhsiteers may have won one battle but they are losing the BS version now

It would be idiotic and a dereliction of her duty to UK citizens abroad [b](who absolutely should be her priority)[/b] to make a unilateral declaration

Pigface, I have challenged Jambas consistently on this thread, what's you point? I prefer to deal with the lies themselves, rather than the individuals making them. Good & sensible people get facts wrong - calling them liers is rather antagonistic dont you think - not even ninners goes that far does he?

On this issue I agree with him as do the facts.

What a truly stupid thing to post

he has a lot to keep up with on that score TBF and a long way behind today

Pigface see TMH's reply above. May did the right thing, morally and pragmatically. The EU chose to support the Irish peace process but not UK citizens hence putting "their own" EU citizens in limbo.

Making a unilateral statement that EU citizens can stay without a similar agreement from the EU for UK citizens would have been very naïve.
Another way of saying that peoples lives are a useful negotiating tool then?

Yes it would be a very useful, it would show a clear good faith. Something that may be in short supply going forward if the UK carries on with its demands.

Captain - she's the UK PM, her priority is UK citizens at home and abroad. Second is everyone else.

That FWIW is one if the (many) problems of the Lisbon Treaty, it says all EU citizens must be treated equally to your own. Bonkers and impractical. Rejected at the Referendum.

She is neglecting her duty to UK citizens abroad because by showing a clear intent to use EU citizens as a negotiating tool she is also setting them up as pawns for negotiation. The very best thing she could do for them is to make a clear commitment to current EU citizens here, showing good faith and setting a precedent that would be politically impossible for other EU leaders to ignore.

My feeling is that the reason she isn't doing that is that she really does intend to use them as pawns, and would be quite happy to see them deported if she doesn't get what she wants in other areas.

It would be idiotic and a dereliction of her duty to UK citizens abroad (who absolutely should be her priority) to make a unilateral declaration

You mean the ones who weren't allowed a vote? or those in NI and Gibratar who voted to remain????

Supporting the NI Peace Process is showing regard for quite a lot of UK citizens too by the way.

THM hang on it's ok for you you be "blunt" but I can't call Jamba a liar? He never retracted his claim about Clinton even after numerous people asked him for evidence. Let's not be hypocritical about this.

Jamba so the EU are villains?

More to the point this was entirely predictable.

May should have seen this coming and offered it as a concession straight away.

Just as with her attempt to ram it all thru without consulting parliament and then challenging the law in the courts, when shown it was wrong.
Doesnt speak well of her ability in the proper negotiations.

After her shambolic showing as home sec, shouldn't really be a surprise tho.

Jamba & THM

I thought we'd already established that until we know the UK's position that, ie in/out of EEA, we won't know whether it'll be the EU or the individual countries who'll decide the fate of Britains' abroad.

And vv for the UK too, if in/out of EEA.

My feeling is that the reason she isn't doing that is that she really does intend to use them as pawns, and would be quite happy to see them deported if she doesn't get what she wants in other areas.

I agree - Brexit has put us in such a de facto weak negotiation position that she will use whatever she has, even at the risk of compromising the very values that makes Britain great. The irony is strong on that one.

On the contrary - despite her relatively crap record as H Sec - she has kept a very contentious and challenging piece of legislation on timetable and relatively unscathed (perhaps totally) and has maintained good dialogue with the Europeans that count including, most importantly, sensible stuff from/with Barnier.

Given the nightmare nature of the task, that is some achievement. In contrast:

Her predecessor lost a vote that should have been easy to win and lost his job
Ditto the previous CoEx
The Leader (sic) of HM Oppo has gone AWOL. Starmer aside the rest of his party are largely irrelevant
The LDs simply want to ignore the referendum result
And the SNP scoop the BS prize on a daily basis - Angus Robertson aside as he asks very good questions that often challenge the PM without any of wee nippy's whining

So compared with her poor record as HSec she is in-line for the Progress Prize!

That FWIW is one if the (many) problems of the Lisbon Treaty, it says all EU citizens must be treated equally to your own. Bonkers and impractical.

Yeah I was going to say that it's only the swivel eyed brexies that are able to consider Europeans living here as second class citizens, but you've done it for me

Dehumanisation is the first step...

Mol and peyote - you continue to ignore the fact that she chose to exercise her power and responsibility to avoid making this an issue. It was not the UK who rejected the idea in Jan in favour of making bargaining chips.

Yet she chooses not to rectify that error now? She has the power to ease many peoples concerns but doesn't. Seems disingenuous to me and I'm a UK citizen. To those who's lives are being used as negotiating tools it must seem far worse I would think.

It would be idiotic and a dereliction of her duty to UK citizens abroad (who absolutely should be her priority) to make a unilateral declaration

Her priority should be to all UK citizens agreed. Allowing non-citizens to stay would benefit the UK economically and morally. It would ease many peoples very real fears about their future. What difference it would make to future negotiations is debatable, but I'm not convinced it would be significant. I would be happy to hear your arguments as to why chucking (or at least threatening to) these folks out would be beneficial during the negotiations though?

For Pigface!

Agree with Kimbers - Jambas it has been an extraordinary achievement to reach a point where we (EU citizens ) are treated equally wherever we chose to live. You and I and our kids have been major beneficiaries of this.

THM you have lost me

Her predecessor lost a vote that should have been easy to win and lost his job

It was never going to be easy, the UK has a racist underbelly, always has. The press has spent 40 years lying aided and abetted by politicians taking the easy route for their incompetence. There should never have been a referendum as the debate had long since been poisoned.

If she was doing such a good job why waste taxpayers money on a court case she was going to loose? As for her record, it is her record at the HO that concerns me, she was the one who screwed the border force, the passport office, who authorised the trucks telling foreigners to go home.

If she was doing such a good job why is she insisting on ignoring most of the populations wishes and chasing the UKIP/BNP/Tory right?

Why is Amber Rudd still in office? Why is Boris ? etc.

Why are you asking people to argue for something that is not being proposed, Peyote?

The only issue is, do you make a unilateral declaration or a multi-lateral one. The heart says the former, the head the latter. She tried a sensible approach to avoid this before. This was rejected. So on that basis, I would marginally favour using her head not her heart.

I would also suggest that using inflammatory language like bargaining chips/chucking people out/storm troopers or posting links to stories that are unrelated to the issue under question may not be in the best interest of those exposed.

Still we all like a bit of froth

If she was doing such a good job why is she insisting on ignoring most of the populations wishes and chasing the UKIP/BNP/Tory right?

Golly that's a tough one

(for the same reason as HM Oppo perhaps? - clue 23 June 2016)

Last time I checked foreigners and illegal immigrants were not the same thing - but accept the point, she was pretty crap as HS which is why I am surprised that she is doing pretty well so far with the hospital pass that is Brexshit. May well end up biting her on her well-coutured backside in the end - we shall see...

[quote=jambalaya ]@Boarding (and TJ) did you see the STW'ers thread on his Polish son being excluded from 6yo's football in Scotland.

Aye, because a kids football team analogy is on a par with global politics

Don't think it has anything to do witht he moral highground

I'm not saying we shouldn'd be letting folks stay here, I'm saying that UK citizens should also have the benefit of staying where they are.

And like it or not (and I don't particularly) we are in a better position to negotiate with forign countires on the later if we haven't commited to the former.

Again, I don't agree with using folks as barganing chips, but in this case I feel we shouldn't also forget UK nationals that are facing uncertainty and a more favourable outcome for all would be more likely if an agreement was made by all sides sooner rather than later.

Taking the 'moral highground' may sort out EU nationals working here, but it will do absolutely nothing to alay the fears of uk nationals abroad.

Why are you asking people to argue for something that is not being proposed, Peyote?

Sorry, I didn't realise I was.

The only issue is, do you make a unilateral declaration or a multi-lateral one. The heart says the former, the head the latter. She tried a sensible approach to avoid this before. This was rejected. So on that basis, I would marginally favour using her head not her heart.

Well, reducing it down to such a simple argument is quite an easy way of looking at it. The problem is, I don't see much of a positive from going for your "head" route as it only seems to offer intangible/immeasurable (imaginary possibly) benefits to future negotiations. Whereas the "heart" route would offer more certainty in terms of economy (for those under threat and associated businesses) as well as a more morally palatable option.

I would also suggest that using inflammatory language like bargaining chips/chucking people out/storm troopers or posting links to stories that are unrelated to the issue under question may not be in the best interest of those exposed.

It's a reasonable suggestion. However emotive language is useful in describing how those under threat feel. If the media, politicians and those who feel vicitimised choose to use this language why should we be surprised considering what has gone on over the past few years?

BTW Is "negotiating tools" or "pawns" acceptable?

Still we all like a bit of froth

Oh yes, big fan of cappuccinos me!

Captain - she's the UK PM, her priority is UK citizens at home and abroad. Second is everyone else.

It would be idiotic and a dereliction of her duty to UK citizens abroad (who absolutely should be her priority)

Lets consider where emotive, yet totally false, language that may have reflected how some felt on immigration got us.....

The nasty foreigners were the cause of all our problems. - smashing wages down, taking all the jobs, filling up hospitals and schools, the collapse of Leicester City FC etc - "apparently"

I think the key bit in your post to remember is the "totally false" bit.

Emotive language can be powerful. Measured, slightly patronising language can be powerful too dontchaknow!

May offered a deal in January to avoid all this aggro but it was rejected.

That's just bullshit pure and simple. She was trying to play games with a bit of megaphone diplomacy, knowing full well that there simply wasn't and still isn't an official negotiating body on the EU-27 side that was authorised to deal with any such proposition and speak on behalf of all 27 countries. She was trying to undermine the legally-established (but untested) process for leaving the EU, and score what she thought would be a few cheap poitical points in the meantime.

The UK is quite deliberately and unilaterally threatening the status and future not only of the 3m EU immigrants in this country but also the similarly large number of Brits abroad by deciding to leave the EU.

As an EU immigrant I am not worried about being allowed to stay in the UK as we had decided to leave before the vote anyway .

But i am disappointed that that so many people have voted to send us home .

and i am angry with the milionaires politicians who have lied through their teeth in pursuit of their own ideology .

[url= http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/database-protecting-uk-expats-from-brexit-misinformation-to-be-built-by-cambridge-researchers ]http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/database-protecting-uk-expats-from-brexit-misinformation-to-be-built-by-cambridge-researchers[/url]

That Cambridge website article almost reads like a Daily Mash one.

Friend of my Mum returned from living in Spain last year, her husband had died and she didn't want to struggle in a country, that while she lived in since early retirement, she didn't really understand nor speak the language.

I reckon that if nothing else the DM will scare that witless.

Rejoice Brexiters, this is my last day at work.

A British citizen can have my job 😀

Have we done today's government hypocrisy yet?

[url= http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_58b94de2e4b0b99894169efd ]http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_58b94de2e4b0b99894169efd[/url]

But i am disappointed that that so many people have voted to send us home

Captain unilaterally declaring all EU citizens can stay is NOT the best strategy to protect British citizens living in the EU. May's current stance is the best way to secure that.

But I am disappointed that that so many people have voted to send us home .

I didn't vote to send you home, I voted so that you didn't have an automatic right to stay. I am sure you'd be entitled to a British Passport if you wanted one. Best of luck with the move.

@matty May's speech was absolutely spot on re Scotland. Masterful in fact. She well knows tye Indy ship has sailed, Scotland cannot remain in the EU even if they voted "out" tomorrow, SNP cannot win a Ref now and won't win one when waiting 5-10 years to join the EU is the only option.

Spot on and masterful? Hahaha! OK if you say so :/

Accusing the SNP of doing exactly what she's doing to Britain is "spot on and masterful" is it???

CZ - hmmm

That is bollocks, the only people who are likely to be sent home are those who are here illegally, they have no legal right to be here, those here legally have every right to stay and continue working here.

You voted to remove his legal right to stay. I make no comment on why you did it but like it or not that's what you did.

So by your own logic, you did vote for him to leave.

As for the EU not letting UK citizens stay - they are doing. That may change when A50 is triggered but until it is making offers is just posturing. (Yes I am accusing May of being more style than substance)

PS -

I'm all in favour of leaving an organisation that is basically built around its elite upper-class, and bullies its members if it doesn't get its way

CountZero - Member

Nobody in any significant numbers voted to send you home, you're swallowing hook, line and sinker the propaganda being put about by the Remain campaign that the whole Brexit campaign was purely about sending European immigrant workers home.

I fear that you are wasting your time CountZero, but you probably already knew. Britain is the most multicultural and least racist country in Europe, possibly the world, but the Remainers want to pretend that Britian has suddenly been gripped by racism and xenophobia.

Quote :

[i][b]“People just don’t want immigrants here, they don’t understand them, they don’t like them, and believe that their maintenance is too expensive.”[/b][/i]

The words of a UKIP politician, a party which has just one solitary MP?

No, the words of a Civic Platform politician which won by a landslide in the last Polish general election.

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/02/poles-dont-want-immigrants-they-dont-understand-them-dont-like-them ]'Poles don't want immigrants. They don't understand them, don't like them'[/url]

[i][b]"A vast majority believe that immigrants take work away from Poles and that their presence is detrimental for the economy."

"According to the UN high commissioner for refugees, Poland has pledged to accept just 100 Syrian refugees between 2016 and 2020."[/i][/b]

There are over three-quarters of a million Poles living in the UK and approximately 2,000 Brits living in Poland. If there were three-quarters of a million Brits in Poland I suspect that there would be rioting in the streets of Warsaw.

But of course it's Britain that is racist and xenophobic.

Conversely loads of Brits in Spain compared to Spanish in UK.

The local council where my old man lives have come out in defence of the expats as they are net contributors to the local economy and not a bunch of racists and have actually looked at the figures.

jambalaya - Member
@matty May's speech was absolutely spot on re Scotland. Masterful in fact.

😆

I thought she was trying to usurp Frankie Boyle as their best stand up

have you ever spoken to a scot jamba?

Mays speech was a brilliant exercise in patronising hypocrisy that will be heavily quoted against her in the next indy ref

It seemed more designed to play to the little englander crowd back home than the scots

just ask craigy
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/

So much...

[I]Captain unilaterally declaring all EU citizens can stay is NOT the best strategy to protect British citizens living in the EU[/I]

Again, if the UK is out of the EEA then it's nothing to do with the EU but up to the individual countries.

[I]@matty May's speech was absolutely spot on re Scotland. Masterful in fact. She well knows tye Indy ship has sailed, Scotland cannot remain in the EU even if they voted "out" tomorrow, SNP cannot win a Ref now and won't win one when waiting 5-10 years to join the EU is the only option. [/I]

No reason Scotland can't stay in the EU, in fact we'll be looking for a custom arrangement - much like TM is 🙂

You don't live in Scotland, I do, what would you know about how we'll vote?

5-10 years? See above.

those here legally have every right to stay and continue working here.

Only up to the day we leave the EU, at which point their status is entirely undecided. Quite deliberately so, with the govt refusing point-blank to clarify it, even under the pressure of the Lords rebellion. The tory govt's attitude is frankly disgusting.

I dunno if this comedy gold should go in the indyref thread or this one?

The Prime Minister delivered a scathing attack on the Scottish National Party and the Scottish independence movement in Glasgow this morning. But every single one of her reasons why Scotland should not leave the United Kingdom, apply equally to the UK leaving the European Union. Here are some of the best.
[b]
“The SNP Government is interested only in stoking-up endless constitutional grievance and furthering their obsession with independence, at the expense of Scottish public services like the NHS and education.”[/b]

Theresa May campaigned for Remain on the basis that it was in the UK’s economic interest. The Chancellor of the Exchequer Philip Hammond warned that Brexit would be ‘catastrophic’.
[b]
“The simple truth is their policies are not in the best interests of Scotland, but in the political interest of the SNP. A party resolutely focused on just one thing: independence.”[/b]

Theresa May’s government is focused on just one thing: independence.

[b]“For them, it is not about doing the right thing. The SNP play politics as though it were a game.”[/b]

Theresa May campaigned for Remain, believing it to be in the best interests of the country. Now she will take the UK out of the European Union.

[b]“[The people of Scotland] have an SNP Government obsessed with its own priority of independence, using the mechanisms of devolved government to further its political aims.”[/b]

Theresa May wanted to trigger Article 50 without consulting parliament. She was defeated in the High Court and again the Supreme Court.

[b]
“When I stood outside Downing Street on the day I became Prime Minister, I reminded people in that the full title of our Party is the Conservative and Unionist Party. And that word ‘unionist’ is very important to me.[/b]”

Nicola Sturgeon has said that Brexit gives a ‘cast iron mandate’ for a second independence referendum.

[b]“The fundamental strengths of our Union, and the benefits it brings to all of its constituent parts, are clear.”[/b]

The European single market is the world’s largest free trading area. The UK is leaving it.

[b]“We all know that the SNP will never stop twisting the truth and distorting reality in their effort to denigrate our United Kingdom and further their obsession of independence.”[/b]

The man she appointed Foreign Secretary has consistently misled the public about EU regulations on bananas, recycling teabags and allow children to blow up balloons. All of them have been proved to be false.

[b]“As Britain leaves the European Union and we forge a new role for ourselves in the world, the strength and stability of our Union will become even more important.”[/b]

Brexit threatens to break up the United Kingdom not just in Scotland but in Northern Ireland too

[b]
“We must take this opportunity to bring our United Kingdom closer together. Because the Union which we all care about is not simply a constitutional artefact. It is a union of people, affections and loyalties.”[/b]

Theresa May still refuses to guarantee the rights of millions of European nationals to remain in the UK, where their affections and loyalties have been built up over decades.

[b]“It is characterised by sharing together as a country the challenges which we all face, and freely pooling the resources we have to tackle them.”
[/b]
Italy, Greece and Malta are dealing with hundreds of thousands of migrants arriving daily. The UK's response has been to leave the European Union

[b]“Our United Kingdom has evolved over time and has a proud history. Together we form the world’s greatest family of nations. But the real story of our Union is not to be found in Treaties or Acts of Parliament. It is written in our collective achievements, both at home and in the world.”

[/b]
The European Union was created to prevent the reappearance of widespread bloodshed in Europe. It has presided over the longest period of permanent peace in European history.

[b]“The Union enabled the social, scientific and economic developments which powered our collective achievement.”[/b]

Brexit has already caused significant funding cuts in science research at Oxford University and others.

[b]“Bringing people and communities closer together allowed new connections to be made.”[/b]

Theresa May will end the rights of British people to live and work in 27 other EU countries, having campaigned for the opposite.

[b]“Together, we make up the world’s fifth-largest economy, despite accounting for less than 1 per cent of the world’s population.”
[/b]
On several different indices, the plummeting pound has in fact caused the UK to drop to sixth

[b]“Together, we fought against and defeated tyranny.”[/b]

An estimated 1.2m British people were killed in the First and Second World Wars. Since the UK’s membership of the European Union and its predecessors, around 400 British soldiers have been killed in conflicts with other European nations, in the Balkans and Cyprus.

[b]“One of the driving forces behind the Union’s creation was the remorseless logic that greater economic strength and security come from being united. Our wholly integrated domestic market for businesses means no barriers to trade within our borders.”[/b]

Again, the UK is leaving the world’s largest free trade zone.

[b]“But what the SNP don’t point out is that the UK domestic market is worth four times more to Scottish firms. In fact, the EU comes third after the rest of the UK, and the rest of the world as a market for Scottish goods. And yet the SNP propose Scottish independence, which would wrench Scotland out of its biggest market.”[/b]

An independent Scotland would seek a free trade agreement with the UK, just as the UK seeks one with the European Union.

[b]“They think independence is the answer to every question in every circumstance, regardless of fact and reality. It simply does not add up and we should never stop saying so.”[/b]

Every former Prime Minister, US President, NATO Secretary General thinks Britain will be poorer as a consequence of leaving the European Union.

[b]“Despite the scaremongering of the SNP, and their shameful attempts to use the jobs of workers as a political football, shipbuilding jobs in Scotland will be sustained thanks to UK Government orders.”[/b]

Theresa May refuses to safeguard the rights of European workers based in the UK
[b]
“And I am determined to ensure that as we leave the EU, we do so as one United Kingdom, which prospers outside the EU as one United Kingdom.”[/b]

Scotland voted to remain in the European Union. All of the economic analysis indicates that Scotland will be poorer when it leaves the European Union.

[b]“It is in the interest of everyone in our country that we seize those opportunities and make a success of what lies ahead. Because politics is not a game and government is not a platform from which to pursue constitutional obsessions.”[/b]

The Vote Leave campaign, of which the Foreign Secretary was a key member, now freely admit that misleading figures on £350m a week being available for the NHS were ‘tactics.’

[b]“It is about taking the serious decisions to improve people’s lives. A tunnel vision nationalism, which focuses only on independence at any cost, sells Scotland short.”[/b]

Theresa May leads a government implementing a decision she does not agree with.

[b]“The United Kingdom we cherish is not a thing of the past, but a Union vital to our prosperity and security, today and in the future. A Union in which our national and local identities are recognised and respected, but where our common bonds are strengthened.”
[/b]
Theresa May’s government will sacrifice prosperity to reduce immigrant numbers.

[b]“Let us live up to that high ideal and let us never stop making loudly and clearly, the positive optimistic and passionate case for our precious union of nations and people.”[/b]

Brexit threatens a union of nations that has maintained peace in Europe.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/25-theresa-may-attacks-on-scottish-independence-that-could-just-as-easily-be-about-brexit-a7610051.html?utm_content=buffer8185c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

@b r Hands up I confess relying on opinion polls. The Salmond was in full pompous mode on This Week as Portillo mocked him for his "once in a generation/lifetime" remark. Come on admit it, you must regret saying that 🙂

Joining the EU takes 5-10 years, 5 being the lightening fast accelerated timeline. Plus there is still the Spanish/Catalan issue to navigate and if I am right about the eurozone then the EU is going to look like a very unattractive club to join for the next 10+ years. Plus in the meantime it's WTO tariffs with the UK for an iS. I just think that's an impossible sell for the SNP.

May was as aggressive as she was in her speech as she is confident she holds the winning cards. The SNP had two years to make their case and they failed to pursuede, time is up.

kimbers - you forgot this bit

As the Government serving the whole United Kingdom, formed in a Parliament drawn from the whole United Kingdom, the UK Government exercises a responsibility on behalf of the whole UK that transcends party politics and encompasses all aspects of our national life.

yeah shes just hammered an irrevocable wedge between scotland and rUK

remarkably naive reading of the situation North of the border

who wants to see farage humiliated by a 6 year old whilst appearing on his bosses tv channel?

Bye bye, devolution?

Lets see what her next step in NI is? I hope she has the sense not to meddle, somehow i fear she is going to try and take control back!

Part of me also wonders, after her citizen of nowhere comments whether she is going to stop dual citizenship, which would also go down well in NI.

Kimbers I think the key difference is that having campaigned for Remain, May turned around and said I didn't want this result but I will respect it and get on with making the most of the decision handed down by the public.

Salmond/Sturgeon having campaigned for Independence their whole life ignored the result and immediately set about campaigning as per normal for Independence and a Referendum do-over.

having campaigned for Remain, May turned around

indeed, sacrificing her principles in exchange for a shot at the top job, overflowimg with integrirty

When did May actually campaign? She was about as committed as Corbyn to the remain camp.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/25/exclusive-leaked-recording-shows-what-theresa-may-really-thinks-about-brexit

Theresa May - Member

The economic prosperity of the UK as a whole depends on young people in all parts of the UK having the skills they need to reach their full potential.

If you really meant that then perhaps your party could stop appointing idiots to the education department like that Gove chap, and fund it properly as well?

Kimbers - in your exhaustive analysis you mised out the bit the the UK satisfies the criteria for a single currency area, has the mechanisms that allow it to work and complements this will hi levels of devolved power - almost federalism according to one major global body. In contrast, the EU does not, does not have the mechanism to allow iif to work, requires much less independence and much greater centralisation of fiscal and political power to a body that is further detached from Scotland than Westminster.

If you thought voting for Brexshit required limited intelligence, voting to leave the UK in favour of the EU is off the scale in the stupidity stakes. Watching the spin will be as amusing as it will be mind boggling.

#SDBMB

Good work Kimbers, not much more to add to that one, it's hard to argue with common sense some days but plenty still try.

When did May actually campaign? She was about as committed as Corbyn to the remain camp.

Exactly. The majority of MPs favoured leave which has now been clearly demonstrated by their vote on article 50. Claiming the will of the people made me do it is weak when it was really the will of 1 million more than didn't want to leave.

Not sure why they were on the remain side, presumably because they thought remain would win combined with wanting to distance themselves from the nasty racist leave campaign.

The majority of MPs favoured leave which has now been .....

I doubt that this will be topped today.

Two wrongs make a right, surely THM?

[URL= http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/jenga101/percent_zpsr6u7afyf.jp g" target="_blank">http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/jenga101/percent_zpsr6u7afyf.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

those here legally have every right to stay and continue working here.

Hang on, am I missing something? Isn't this what May has refused to confirm?

And as for what Brexiters were voting for - that seems to be quite variable.

kerley - Member

The majority of MPs favoured leave

We really are in the post-truth era.

If you and THM just take the first bit of the line that is up to you. The second part of my sentence is the key bit "which has now been clearly demonstrated by their vote on article 50."

I voted remain, as an MP I would have voted against article 50. I would be representing the will of 16 million rather than the will of 17 million, I can live with that because I want to remain.

Can you tell me why you think my statement is wrong around MP really favouring leave?

Yes, most MPs were arguing in favour of remaining in the EU but secretly wanted to leave. We haven't had a new conspiracy theory for a while.

Post-truth and conspiracy theories......the new politics.

Btw was it you kerley who some pages back was claiming to be cleverer than the average person?

As I have said befire I think Maybwas a very marginal Remainer, as oer the article she did virtually no campaigning. One reason she was the landslide PM candidate is that Leavers believe she will fully respect their wishes, I certainky do.

@cloudnine - that pie chart includes Children too young to vote ? Also read the smallprint, a massive 74% majority of Leave voters favour a hard Brexit

UK has no legal liability to pay a "divorce bill". My thoughts entitely. Even pension liabilities are the responsibility of the EU legally IMO. Independent starting to have a new more balanced articles.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/britain-will-not-contribute-to-eu-budget-if-no-brexit-deal-is-reached-says-lords-report-a7609526.html

- that pie chart includes Children too young to vote ?

And in 10 years of drawn out legal wranglings when we are still untangled from the EU, they will be of voting age and a big chunk of those oldies that voted leave will have passed on, hopefully leaving a more tolerant and less bigoted britain.

a more tolerant and less bigoted britain.

Hopefully more in line with the rest of Europe eh? 😆

One reason she was the landslide PM candidate is that [s]Leavers believe she will fully respect their wishes,[/s]she was not one of the Brexit campaign team who crashed and burned

IMHO she became PM because of who she was not more than who she was
Grey and dull enough to not annoy either remain or leave sides of the TOry camp

Telegragh has the same story. Will try and find the report itself so I can read it directly

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/04/britain-will-not-have-pay-penny-leave-european-union-say-peers/

One reason she was the landslide PM candidate is that Leavers believe she will fully respect their wishes

I thought she just let everyone else stab each other in the back/face and then stepped over the bodies.

The report said that we could avoid paying our bill, but it would poison the negotiations, so would be very foolish.
As if we weren't already a global laughing stock!

However in line with brexit and the standard brexies delusions of grandeur, it's probably the option Maybot will think she has to take.

As much as I'd like farage to be denied his pension, not everyone should suffer for his egomania.

Will try and find the report itself so I can read it directly

Here you go
https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201617/ldselect/ldeucom/125/12502.htm

Chapter 4 Conclusion - NB all of this appears in BOLD in the original but will not code as such on here for some reason
[b]

Conclusions

135.On the basis of the legal opinions we have considered we conclude that, as a matter of EU law, Article 50 TEU allows the UK to leave the EU without being liable for outstanding financial obligations under the EU budget and related financial instruments, unless a withdrawal agreement is concluded which resolves this issue.

136.Individual EU Member States may seek to bring a case against the UK for the payments of outstanding liabilities under principles of public international law, but international law is slow to litigate and hard to enforce. In addition, it is questionable whether an international court or tribunal could have jurisdiction.

137.However, the political and economic consequences of the UK leaving the EU without responding to claims under the EU budget are likely to be profound. If the UK wants a preferential trading relationship with EU, including a transitional arrangement, the EU partners may well demand a financial contribution post-Brexit.

Yes, most MPs were arguing in favour of remaining in the EU but secretly wanted to leave. We haven't had a new conspiracy theory for a while.

That's the point. They claimed they were in favour of remaining but when given the vote to remain (blocking article 50) they didn't. Hardly a conspiracy theory is it. What they said and what they did are two different things. I would rather use the evidence of what they did.

kerley - Member

What they said and what they did are two different things.

Most MPs voted to leave the EU?

This thread keeps on giving! The irony is that it's littered with halfwit comments by punters who reckon the majority of the population are stupid! 😆

Sorry kerley but the second part was even worse. I only quoted the first bit to save your blushes.

It really is amazing how much BS our side is now coming out with 😯