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[I]Anyway. Interesting thought earlier - if the country does go to the dogs because of Brexit, most brexiteers won't believe that (they'll be in denial) so they'll have no-one else to blame but May. Could result in a kicking at the next GE perhaps? [/I]
Based on the Stoke by-election turnout you could argue that the 'Brexiters' only came out for the referendum vote, so less of a worry for the Tories - and who would they vote for instead?
As far as the EU citizens living in the UK, originally I thought it's best left for the negotiation but TBH I'm now coming around to the belief that we need to provide guarantees if only to protect the UK.
Not sure what these 'guarantees' could be, nor how they could be administered nor even do we have a 'cut-off date'. Otherwise we could be creating ourselves an even bigger problem, if that was actually possible...
And, anyone with a non-UK citizenship that's been working here, make sure you write to HMRC to get your state pension statement - keep it in a safe place.
https://www.gov.uk/check-state-pension
Have the bags by the door Dr, the storm troopers are being readied as we speak
If "professionals" are leaving their jobs because they "are no longer welcome" then you have to question just how professional they are. More academic than common sense ? Can they get tickets given that the queues are already full of bankers rushing home too?
Of course both sides are going to place securing residents rights at the bottom of the list just after bananas and marmalade
The mass hyperbole continues
Kerley, i don't know the exact number so maybe out a bit. But basically if you don't qualify for the right British passport you don't have the right to stay.
https://www.gov.uk/types-of-british-nationality/overview
This also includes those born here and their parentage. So you can be born in the UK and live your whole life here but have no right to stay.
Part of the issue is that people have used freedom of movement to move and then why bother applying for citizenship if you don't need it? Why bother collating documentation when you don't need it etc.
Just found this, which gives an idea, but as UKBA is basically incompitent, (as amended by TM) no one really knows. so all based on surveys and best guesses.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-36745584
And expect ID cards to be back on the agenda in the near future, it will be the only way to prove who are allowed to stay in the UK.
Kerley to answer your specific questions and i am not a lawyer. My understanding, Do they have indefinite leave to remain? IF yes then they can stay subject to certain regulations, like not leaving. If they don't, then even though they have lived here for decades they don't. I would strongly suggest having a chat to an immigration lawyer and getting some proper advice.
My dad is an Irish citizen and has been here since the 50's, and having no need for UK citizenship to stay never bothered. Who knows what the situation is there now!
Its real people being affected - and don't forget those UK citizens overseas.
2 friends of mine in Scotland face losing their right to stay. BOth running businesses as well. One is certainly making plans to leave. Then my sister. Lived in the Netherlands for 25 years. Where does she stand? Again she runs a business
What about all those UK pensioners in spain? - they are going to lose their healthcare rights
Its an absolute disgrace May wants to use these people as bargaining chips no matter the cost to them.
You may say - well just apply for citizenship - if only it were that easy. it will take dozens of years to even process all the claims at current rates of progress
If "professionals" are leaving their jobs because they "are no longer welcome" then you have to question just how professional they are.
You have a serious problem. Sort yourself out. Try some empathy. People want to know that their families won't be split up, and if the only way to guarantee that is to move country, of course they will look to do that, no matter what their work responsibilities.
Empathy includes not scaring people unnecessary with exaggerated stories simply to create a false narrative. How empathetic is scaring a spouse with stories of storm troopers?
That's what needs sorting out.
False narrative? People's fears that they won't be able to stay can be alivieated by telling them they can stay. May needs to do that. We know why she won't. She has past form when it comes to families with a non-EU member, and people have very real fears that families with a rEU family member will be treated the same when the time comes.
Empathy includes not scaring people unnecessary with exaggerated stories simply to create a false narrative. How empathetic is scaring a spouse with stories of storm troopers?
Scare stories about EU citizens receiving letters telling them to leave the country, you mean? Is that false narrative? Or just an inconvenient truth?
If "professionals" are leaving their jobs because they "are no longer welcome" then you have to question just how professional they are
Quite a silly comment - do "professionals" have nothing in their lives other than their "profession"? Are they not allowed to consider how comfortable they feel in their environment?
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/woman-irene-clennell-uk-deport-singapore-british-husband-durham-immigration-detention-centre-a7601441.html ]Scare story? [/url]
If this is how we treat immigrants, and you are an immigrant how would you feel now?
[I]Scare stories about EU citizens receiving letters telling them to leave the country, you mean? Is that false narrative? Or just an inconvenient truth? [/I]
What this kind of stuff?
And, needing to give up your passport for 4-6 months while they 'process' the application - yeah, like none of us ever need to go anywhere...
The Singapore case has more to it than we realise IMO, and as it's non-EU should be on a different post.
THM - MemberPerhaps when assigning blame we should look in the mirror first. Who lost the easy argument? Who is now trying to obstruct the process? Who is being responsible?
Ah, I know the answer to the first one!
David Cameron!
as it's non-EU should be on a different post
She has past form when it comes to families with a non-EU member, and people have very real fears that families with a rEU family member will be treated the same when the time comes.
If May hadn't made things so hard for non-EU spouses, and other non-EU residents, while at the home office, EU citizens would be far less worried about how she'll handle them if/when/once they have much the same status.
Looks like someone I know will be able to get Italian citizenship (he's never lived there) more simply than his other half, and mother of his children, can get her UK rights sorted out… the business is all in his name, on paper she's never worked here, a mistake in hindsight.
May can make it simple, sort out the rights of EU citizens here IN ADVANCE of negotiations, and disarm the issue. She may 'intend' so get this sorted early in negotiations, but why not remove the certainty now? In case you're wondering, every UK citizen I know living in rEU say that they want this to happen as well… if this is removed form the negotiations they think they have far more chance of getting their own statuses sorted soon rather than later/never.
as it's non-EU should be on a different post.
Presumably post-Brexit, in the absence of an agreement (and as we see there is no rush on TM's part to make an agreement), then EU [s]bargaining chips[/s] people will be in the same boat (perhaps literally) as Singaporeans?
If May hadn't made things so hard for non-EU spouses, and other non-EU residents, while at a the home office,
Not only - there is also the issue of requiring EU citizens in the UK to have additional comprehensive sickness insurance.
Thm, go and find a bunch of Europeans to have coffee with, especially those with families, onn 2-3 year contracts, with 10% of their industry funding blocked, no big safety net of cash or assets...
Ask them how they feel about the Tories morphing into UKIP, the prominent brexiteers now cabinet ministers, still spouting their jingoistic rubbish, the emboldened swivel-eyed xenophobes on any BBC article open to comments or the right wing press going even more hysterical with a daily hissy fit declaring Brexit the will of the people.!
Hyperbole it may be, but it's the major narrative being offered right now.
The Singapore case has more to it than we realise IMO, and as it's non-EU should be on a different post.
They always do, but it sets the tone. And as EU and non EU become the same thing.
Thinking a bit further, Swiss and Norway aren't in the EU, our agreements with both countries are via the EU, which basically means that any negotiation with the EU doesn't actually include these countries.
So going forward we may come to a trade agreement with bits of Europe and then have to have another round of negotiations with other bits of Europe!
Is that right or wrong???????
Kimbers you ae right, hyperbole is the feature of the current narrative eg, storm troopers, confusing EU and non EU stories for effect, hissy fits, bargaining chips etc
In the meantime, the gov calmly started that securing the rights of EU residents was a top priority that would be negotiated quickly on a bilateral basis thereby showing empathy to UK citizens resident in the EU. Bas@@@ds
The EU can't tell the Swiss, EFTA or even EU member states how to handle non-EEA passport holders. Very likely that each country will put their own measures in place… Ireland and Spain might decide that UK passport holders can carry on pretty much as before our exit… Germany might decide to make it super simple/quick to gain Gerrman citizenship, but insist that you must do so to keep your rights.
confusing EU and non EU stories for effect
Strawman. Plenty of clarification above about why the UK treatment of nonEU people living in UK is entirely relevant.
Yes and about as convincing as the Ford and Banker stories
Talk to some rEU citizens living in the UK. Listen to others. Try it. Empathy is essential.
It is and starts with telling the truth not scaring people with exaggerated stories.
Yes, they have uncertainty. No need to add to that. How is that empathetic?
We need to press on and deliver a fast bilateral agreement protecting the rights of both UK and EU citizens. Oddly that is what the government is doing. How very dare they....
Why?
Offer certainty ASAP and keep it out of the negotiations.
Why risk months or years of uncertainty?
The thing is, you trust May on this issue, where as those actually effected by this look at her track record.
Yes as I said that makes it all warm and fuzzy but does little to protect the interests of UK citizens resident in the EU. Is empathy only a one way street?
Given that you appear to have v little trust in our politicians - probably correctly so - odd that you don't have the same concerns about their EU counterparts.
"Don't look at how May has treated nonEU people living here, she won't let that happen to your EU friends and family living in the UK, honest… they don't need any legal status set out, just trust her to sort things"
[I]The EU can't tell the Swiss, EFTA or even EU member states how to handle non-EEA passport holders. [/I]
Interesting, so this negotiation won't actually include the rights of UK citizens in EU countries IF we're not in the EEA post-2019?
First time I've heard that.
odd that you don't have the same concerns about their EU counterparts.
Some will handle it well, some will no doubt be damn awkward; after we've left they'll be major differences between each EEA country over how they handle our people in their countries, in fact, there already is.
But you are happy to leave the interests of UK citizens in the awkward countries unprotected, With friends like you, they certainly don't need enemies do they?
I've already spoken to people I know living in 8 different EU countries, and all feel their position is best protected by the UK unilaterally sorting out the position of EU citizens living here. Politically it is the far smarter move according to them, and they understand the political dialogue of the countries they live in far better than me.
May just wants to play hardball with the interests of "foreigners".
Her time at the Home Office should set your expectations there.
Kimbers you ae right, hyperbole is the feature of the current narrative eg, storm troopers, confusing EU and non EU stories for effect, hissy fits, bargaining chips etc
You're right - "storm troopers" was an exaggeration, just like the stories of vans going round telling foreigners to go home. Oh, wait a mo. That was actually fact. I wonder whose idea it was? Probably not someone we should trust to deal fairly with immigration.
But you are happy to leave the interests of UK citizens in the awkward countries unprotected
They aren't made any more protected or unprotected by May's refusal to do the decent thing and protect the rights of EU nationals in the UK.
No really....
Have a quick look at political developments across Eur right now Dr. And then type the same statement...
I agree that May's van slogans were appaling and crass but again lets remember what they said - illegal immigrants not foreigners. Still in the land of hyperbole details do not matter do they. Lets scare the sh!t out of folk instead - empathy non-personified.
Who is trying to scare folk?
If the government spells out who will and won't be legally allowed to stay in the UK then fear will be removed for many.
It will and I hope they DO priorities this as I hope the EU does the same thing. It's in no ones interests to have such uncertainty. Agreed.
Still in the land of hyperbole details do not matter do they. Lets scare the sh!t out of folk instead - empathy non-personified
No comment on the letters telling EU citizens to go home? Have you been taking a correspondence course at the Jamba School of Argument?
Have a quick look at political developments across Eur right now Dr. And then type the same statement...
Your comment makes no sense. If May wants to protect UK citizens in the EU, she can do so. If (e.g.) the French refuse to protect Brits, despite Fr in the UK being protected, she can easily retaliate in other ways - extra tax on smelly cheese or whatever. Oh - sorry - that costs money - so f*** you and your sentimental attachment to your family.
I read the article - have you? More exaggerated claims...plus ca change
Have you been taking a correspondence course at the Jamba School of Argument?
Are you missing Jambas today - was it four anti-Jamba posts in a row yesterday? That's quite some obsession you have there. Perhaps you should see a doctor?
I am honoured to have you full attention today though - directly and indirectly (your IFS thread quote was a corker)
Your comment makes no sense. If May wants to protect UK citizens in the EU, she can do so. If (e.g.) the French refuse to protect Brits, despite Fr in the UK being protected, she can easily retaliate in other ways - extra tax on smelly cheese or whatever. Oh - sorry - that costs money - so f*** you and your sentimental attachment to your family.
Judging by the quality of argument displayed there, I can fully understand why you might struggle to see sense in my comments. I cannot compete at your level, sorry.
Lack of response noted, THM.
Good, nothing to comment on. Exaggerating a cock-up into policy is simply absurd. Papers should know better.
Whereas:
and as we see there is no rush on TM's part to make an agreement
1. Flies in the face of all the evidence that this is one area that is being prioritised, and that
2. Barnier is saying the same thing
But keep scaring your wife unnecessarily if it makes you feel better and more empathetic (sic). The irony is noted.
But keep scaring your wife unnecessarily if it makes you feel better and more empathetic (sic). The irony is noted.
The swear filter won't let me reply suitably to that.
I'm out of this thread from now on, and not engaging with you with you in any way.
Should have learnt that lesson sooner many would say.
Over and out…
But keep scaring your wife unnecessarily if it makes you feel better and more empathetic (sic). The irony is noted.
You have no clue what my wife's circumstances are, so you are not in any position to judge whether she should be scared or not, are you?
Au revoir kelvin
Correct Dr, but you do and chose to tell her about Stormtroopers gathering to kick her out etc. I would imagine that she finds that far more frightening than the truth. Which is worse?
Its your choice what you tell her, nothing to do with me. Personally, I WOULD avoid scare stories though.
Au revoir kelvin
Poor show THM, really.
Its French - meaning until we see each other again mol ie, look forward to Kelvins return when he has got over his upset.
In the spirit of EU togetherness a bit of French never hurts anyone
Thanks for the marital advice THM. I will file it where I usually file such things.
Perhaps you imagine that my wife is not perfectly capable of making her own assessment of her situation. You'd be amazed what women can comprehend!
I imagine nothing....certainly not jack-booted storm troopers kicking doors in.
I hope very much that your wife is safe and that her interests are protected as I do for all EU and UK citizens. As well meaning as the HoL vote was yesterday I doubt that it makes her position better, Sods law, probably/possibly the opposite.
But either way, she has my best wishes.
In the meantime, the gov calmly started that securing the rights of EU residents was a top priority that would be negotiated quickly on a bilateral basis thereby showing empathy to UK citizens resident in the EU.
And if those negotiations don't go as planned, you don't think there would be childish tit for tat stuff going on?
Why would you not guarantee it now, unless you are not 100% convinced you will never kick anyone out?
Quite possible which answers the second question
certainly not jack-booted storm troopers kicking doors in
That was very clearly a metaphor. These days it's a brown envelope with OHMS on the top. Effect is similar though.
First of all i should state i am completely anti brexit
Secondly i feel that using the lives of non uk born citizens as barganing chips is wrong
But I do feel slightly wary of offering guarantees to those that have moved to our country, without having similar guarantees in return for all those from the UK who are living abroad.
and a rather scary one at that - I would hate anyone using that in front of my wife.
So 3m brown envelopes on their way mol, is that correct? 😯
That was very clearly a metaphor. These days it's a brown envelope with OHMS on the top.
Though in the case of the Singaporean woman mentioned earlier it was a case of being bundled into a van and taken to a detention centre prior to deportation.
[i]But I do feel slightly wary of offering guarantees to those that have moved to our country, without having similar guarantees in return for all those from the UK who are living abroad. [/I]
But as said on the last page, if we're not even in the EEA then this isn't an EU-wide thing, but up to individual countries in how the 'treat' THEIR foreigners. Or as asked previously, am I wrong?
Taking the high ground and saying we will not punish anyone who already live in the UK just because they are not from here is a welcome change to a lot of the hate that seems to be out there. If we want to pretend we are in control of the situation and are global leaders it is a good start.
here here.
THM, have a word with yourself.
Easy to forget that May offered a deal in January to avoid all this aggro but it was rejected. Makes you think, or should do...
Anyway, most likely that HoC overdoes the rules and after the ping pong we carry on as before with hopefully Barnier and May leading in a positive direction
[quote=tpbiker ]
But I do feel slightly wary of offering guarantees to those that have moved to our country, without having similar guarantees in return for all those from the UK who are living abroad.
Why?
Why punish people for the actions of their government? As above, we have the opportunity to be the bigger man here.
I was immensely proud of Sturgeon's immediate commitment to EU nationals living in Scotland.
I was entirely not surprised by Fuhrer May's complete antipathy towards EU nationals living in England the rest of the UK.
I agree Bob, why? Especially as we seem to be benefitting economically from these people too! Isn't it a case of "cutting off your nose to spite your face"? I just don't see the logic, other than TM et al wanting to rattle their sabres at Europe before negotiations start, seems a pretty spineless reason though.
...and at odds with her trying to tie the whole issue up before negotiations began. Still hard to get frothy about that isn't it?
...and at odds with her trying to tie the whole issue up before negotiations began. Still hard to get frothy about that isn't it?
Well, not really. She can tie everything up without having to have everyone agreeing the same.
But I do feel slightly wary of offering guarantees to those that have moved to our country, without having similar guarantees in return for all those from the UK who are living abroad.
There's this thing called the moral high ground. British people like to imagine they occupy it, for some reason - when clearly we rarely do.
But I do feel slightly wary of offering guarantees to those that have moved to our country, without having similar guarantees in return for all those from the UK who are living abroad.
It was our electorate voted for Brexit, shouldnt we be accepting some responsibility for the upheaval it is causing?
The childish rejection of any responsibility by brexies or the government are as trump would say - Sad
br>> But as said on the last page, if we're not even in the EEA then this isn't an EU-wide thing, but up to individual countries in how the 'treat' THEIR foreigners. Or as asked previously, am I wrong?
Whilst the average Brexit voter is almost certainly ignorant of the fact that the EU doesn't supersede national sovereignty on such matters, it's disingenuous at best for Theresa May to rule out guarantees for EU citizens here based on her asking the EU for something she clearly knows it can't give.
True - but IIRC she offered the deal to all the other states earlier this year but a small number (was it 2 including allegedly Germany?) declined
I think mefty knows the details
May has made it clear that she wishes to grant EU citizens the right to stay. It is the EU which is playing politics with people's lives. As I noted on the Corbyn thread the EU said immediately it was supportive of a special deal for the Irish/NI border. It chose not to issue the same language and to play games
There's this thing called the moral high ground. British people like to imagine they occupy it, for some reason - when clearly we rarely do.
Well it's not the UK which has a Buhka ban or is passing legislation preventing EU citizens from claiming unemployment benefits whilst at the same time pretending to stand at the centre of the EU. It's not the UK government which agreed cosy triple-Irish tax breaks amounting to a 1% corporate tax rate. I have more but I think you get the gist ...
@Boarding (and TJ) did you see the STW'ers thread on his Polish son being excluded from 6yo's football in Scotland.
It is the EU which is playing politics with people's lives.
Nope it's both of them, the only one which has the power to grant anything in the Britain is TM, she could choose to do so. She doesn't on the basis that it could be a useful negotiating tool (IMO). Pretty heartless morally, and questionably not economically sensible either.
THM you are straying into ninfan territory, you seem to take great delight in antagonising people who disagree or have different views from you.
Making a unilateral statement that EU citizens can stay without a similar agreement from the EU for UK citizens would have been very naïve.
Well it's not the UK which has a Buhka ban or is passing legislation preventing EU citizens from claiming unemployment benefits whilst at the same time pretending to stand at the centre of the EU. It's not the UK government which agreed cosy triple-Irish tax breaks amounting to a 1% corporate tax rate. I have more but I think you get the gist ...
Isn't that just whataboutery? I'm sure there are dozens of examples from both sides. Doesn't make this decision any less morally dubious.
Pigface - perhaps but a degree of irony ypu pointing that out ! Chapeau btw for the Fake News joke in the Trump thread
the EU said immediately it was supportive of a special deal for the Irish/NI border
I realise you've demonstrated spectacular ignorance in the past of what you termed a backward country, but if we need to spell out to you why the Ireland/NI border is a very special case and can be treated separately from your pissing contest over reciprocal citizens' residency rights, then you're even more ignorant than you've previously shown. It's far simpler for the likes of you to constantly conflate complex issues together though. I understand why you do it and why you won't stop.
Making a unilateral statement that EU citizens can stay without a similar agreement from the EU for UK citizens would have been very naïve.
Another way of saying that peoples lives are a useful negotiating tool then?
Don't flatter your self Jamba, you claimed that Clinton had had a stroke, I called you out on it, you didn't provide any evidence, you are a liar.
It woud be the right thing to do.
You don't give much of a shit do you? There's a point where we need to stop playing the game and do the right thing. You'll find that in that situation people are often inspired to also do the right thing.
It should not be part of the negotiations, at all ever. So it can't be naieve, it can only be upright and decent.
I have more but I think you get the gist ...
Umm.. moral high ground is NOT a relative concept! If I point out something morally dubious one side has done, pointing out other worse things other people do does not make it okay!
Peyote - I think May owns the moral high ground on this issue. EU are the villans.
Yes agreed and fair enough, there are issues bith sides. That's really what I was trying to show.
People can have whatever views they like pigface - equally they should expect to be challenged when they post BS - and its up to them how they respond. This is just an internet chat forum.
Over the past 15 pages of so the BS baton has passed firmly from the Brexshiteers to the Remoaners. It helps no one to have such BS form any part of the on-going narrative - in fact it probably scares many given the stories made up ^
But i do delight in trying to discover facts behind stories, true, and that may wind up those who prefer to deal in BS admittedly - guilty as charged 😉
Pigface - Member
Don't flatter your self Jamba, you claimed that Clinton had had a stroke, I called you out on it, you didn't provide any evidence, [b]you are a liar.[/b]
Is this an example of your more considered and conciliatory tone?
Peyote - I think May owns the moral high ground on this issue. EU are the villans.
Why? She has the power to make things better, she chooses not to exercise it. That makes her a "villain" in my book.