[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

thanks 🙂 I'm still puzzled as to why you think we should help make a success of something which is such folly 😕

The nature of "the folly" is in our hands - we can take responsibility for what happens next. Simple.

Indeed. Though what happens next need not be triggering a50.

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we can take responsibility for what happens next. Simple.

Is there a nicer version of rabid thick xenophobic racist **** out there thats worth putting the effort in for ?

I think we ALL have a clear responsibility for making Brexshit work.

Those in the civil service have a responsibility to make Brexit work for the UK.
The rest of us just have to try and make it work best for our companies & families, and for ourselves.
That is far from the same thing in many cases.

We'll all make adjustments to take advantage of the changes ahead, but that doesn't stop up us from saying that we'd be better of staying in the EU… or that when we leave the EU we shouldn't make it any harder than possible to trade with the remaining members… or that restricting freedom of movement and refusing to accept external court judgements will reduce the quality of all our lives greatly, and completely mess up the lives of those that straddle country borders.

Should the country as a whole be given a chance to think again, once they see the exit deal?

Ah kelvin, so are you coming round to the notion of "there is no such thing as society"?

I agree that we would have been better of staying in the EU, but we lost that argument didn't we? Keep fighting that fact if you want, but IMO that is a waste of time.

Ah kelvin, so are you coming round to the notion of "there is no such thing as society"?

Nope, just that I know what my job is, and it has nothing to do with "making Brexit work" I'm afraid.
Just like it isn't my responsibity to remove Billy Blogg's expendix, that's down to his surgeon.
I do pay toward the NHS.
I also pay towards those working in the Civil Service.
I don't do their jobs, nor would I, and no doubt nor could I.

It is not the responsibity of "ALL" of us to make Brexit work, we'll just get on with our lives, and adapt.

Oh, and take any opportunity presented to us to stop it happening. No chance of facilitating something we think should not happen. Leave that to the poor sods working for the government.

Well that's a good start

FWIW, the world will be a very different place by 3/19 and the EU, is if nothing else, a creation of compromise. IMO, the end place will not be that far from where we are now albeit that I fully expect the EZ to be very, very different - most likely non-existent in relation to its current form.

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I think we ALL have a clear responsibility for making Brexshit work.

If a bunch of morons vote to shit their pants I have no responsibility either to shit my own pants in solidarity, or to help them clean themselves up. I'm perfectly entitled to just point and laugh.

I'm perfectly entitled to just point and laugh.

bordering on civil disobedience that!

Anyone know what the ridings like around Annecy ?

Leavers sweating - petition to gov't to nationalise Vauxhall

I’ve made a petition – will you sign it?
My petition:
The Government to Intervene in the possible Sale of Vauxhall by General Motors.
Government to intervene in the possible sale of Vauxhall to PSA and and part Nationalize Vauxhall with the balance of the company going to an investor or investors. This could hopefully safe guard jobs, with the ultimate aim of producing a range of car's in the UK that could be sold worldwide.
Vauxhall Motors are the oldest automotive brand making cars and van's in the Uk, with the first car launched in May 1903 and the first Bedford Truck in 1931, production starred at Luton in 1905 and GM brought the company in 1925. Substantial growth in the last 114 years has allowed them to become the no2 best selling car in the UK and largest manufacture and exporter of commercial vehicles. 35,000 people are associated with Vauxhall with 4,500 Ellsemere Port and Luton alone.

no a chance of that happening .

I think I read that 82% of Vauxhal produced in the UK are exported .

wicki - Member

We had a recent show where the Notaires society of France turned up to reassure British people that they would still be welcome after Brexit and still able to buy property here.

Whereas the UK government seems to be completely indifferent to how EU citizens feel here. I think a lot of them feel pretty rejected.

Could be good for salaries for the locals though if all the skilled EU workers go and find somewhere nicer to live.

You've hit the nail on the head. That's what Brexit has made many Europeans think of the British.

Short memories.

There is among my colleagues/peers/associates a consistent attitude of "* em they voted for it and during this process we will take advantage of this and them in any way we can"

Depressions/recessions regardless of origion always create "hire and fire, zero hours, gang master" environments for low skilled people.

I have asked many times on this forum for a practical list of the things that will improve the lives of these people post brexit (I also asked my local rabid Tory MP the question to his face in the local pub) and you know what with all due respect to Ninfan/Jamba and Rishi Sunak the response has been we have "endless opportunities" what I want is a granular list of opportunities- nothl the over arching US Australia NZ India markets bollocks. Much of the industry based here is not owned by the UK and worse we are reliant on Toshiba and the French (FFS) to build our nucler plants.

There are times in your life wether you are a country a business or an individual that you just need to keep your head below the parapets, I understand Spain Greece Italy etc have bigger problems but this was not the time to take a bullett by stepping outside the herd and making ourselves a target. Does anyone on this forum really think that the rest of the world gives a * about us- I have US business acquaintices and trust me the special relationship only exists as far are as golf courses and cash cows. They the Brexiteers are post truth delusionits.

Oh no my mate Bob who wants a £30k fork lift truck job (that's why he voted brexit) has just been told his £18k fork lift truck job is being made redundant - but no sweat plenty of minimum wage jobs in tye north. FFS people we need to stop talking bollocks and focus on keeping people paid and in work rather drawing red lines over an immigration issue that actually barely exists.

Could be good for salaries for the locals though if all the skilled EU workers go and find somewhere nicer to live.

why? all the unskilled jobs piggy-backing off the skilled immigrants will vanish...

Oh no my mate Bob who wants a £30k fork lift truck job (that's why he voted brexit) has just been told his £18k fork lift truck job is being made redundant - but no sweat plenty of minimum wage jobs in tye north. FFS people we need to stop talking bollocks and focus on keeping people paid and in work rather drawing red lines over an immigration issue that actually barely exists.

Yeah, I know a few people in similar situations.

I laughed.

I'm perfectly entitled to just point and laugh.

Oh no my mate Bob who wants a £30k fork lift truck job (that's why he voted brexit) has just been told his £18k fork lift truck job is being made redundant

Kelvin, sorry didn't answer your question about second vote and then went out to play tennis

A moments conaideration highlights why a second vote is (a) pointless and (b) counter-productive

One month to go, more or less ? Personally I am planning quite a party. Champagne corks over the Hampshire Countryside.

A second vote, tha's clutching at straws. Each one with Tony Blair's name on.

Kelvin you have my plan for £450m a week plus maintainence of all existing "EU" funding (ie 60% of our oen money back)

Edukator your post and the annecdotes simply cement our resolve. School trips are organised to the UK as kids want to improve their English as it's the business language of the world. That is basically my point with Brexit, we have always been a globally focused nation and it's time to reinvigorate that. If we do end up with WTO tariffs the French are going to be mightily hacked off. We'll have piles of manure on the Autoroute never mind the current dentist's strike due to cuts in Government funding.

The point I am trying to make is that the leave campaign has statements promising tariff-free access to the single market.

@molgrips my point is that we will (imo) have tariff free access to large parts of the single market (including auto manufacturing) and services (tariff free under wto the argument is about regulatory access to financial services) .. we will (imo) have tariff free access the the areas of mutual benefit (inc autos)

Could be good for salaries for the locals though if all the skilled EU workers go and find somewhere nicer to live.

You assume that the locals can do the jobs, bluntly many of those who are unemployed are unemployable. Some people are capable and "luck" hasn't been with them i will accept. Too many expect a decent job and won't put in the effort to get it.

Those leaving will simply take the work with them leaving nothing behind.

A duty to make it work? Don't make me laugh. We have a duty to protect the poor and weak and opposing leaving the EU is one way we should be doing this.

all politicians who are not totally loopy should be working as hard as they can to make the governments position untenable - after all most of them back remaining in the EU and as for " the country has spoken" its utter tosh. Thin majority of a minority of the population and of course the vote excluded many millions of taxpaying residents.

the whole thing is completely bogus, unutterably stupid and is a total disaster

That is basically my point with Brexit, we have always been a globally focused nation and it's time to reinvigorate that.

That was all very well and good when we had such a technological advantage, that we could start a war with China and win - but we can't use naval power anymore to be a trading nation that can dictate the terms of trade in our favour.

We'll become a globally focused nation though, one that exports low paid OFW's like the Philippines does now, to China and India in 50 years. 😆

I have no interest in making you laugh.

Encouranging you to post things that are true would be far more beneficial to us all though, but that's a long shot isn't it?

, we have always been a globally focused nation and it's time to reinvigorate

I rest my ****ing case

Total and absolute contentless bollocks, Jamba I assume you are well educated and well read (better than me) so you must be a Troll spouting the champagne cork/reinvigorate shite

Total and absolute contentless bollocks, Jamba I assume you are well educated and well read (better than me) so you must be a Troll spouting the champagne cork/reinvigorate shite

Where there is change there is always an opportunity for those with the money to take advantage of it. For the majority you just have to muddle through.

mrmo - Member

You assume that the locals can do the jobs, bluntly many of those who are unemployed are unemployable. Some people are capable and "luck" hasn't been with them i will accept. Too many expect a decent job and won't put in the effort to get it.

Those leaving will simply take the work with them leaving nothing behind.

So it's back to the politics of envy. Brexit won't make us rich, but at least we will all be impoverished together.

So it's back to the politics of envy. Brexit won't make us rich, but at least we will all be impoverished together.

Not quite, the rich will have the money to take advantage of the situation,eveyone else will just end up as canon fodder.

Blimey is everyone that spineless?

THM never confuse stupidity with bravery..

THM, what does history teach us, first the worst thing, every time a european project goes wrong lots of people will die in Belgium ( not sure why but it always seems to be the case)

Second, those with money will be fine.

Third no country is entitled to lead the world, power moves, empires come and go. For the UK to move forward it needs to understand and leave the past behind.

Going forward, the UK needs investment, but it needs something to sell. Frankly i haven't yet seen a UK government display any competence in decades. I have seen very few companies run for the long term.

"Long term" seems to be an alien concept in British business and politics.

Are you asking me a question?

"Globally focussed nation"

You mean we used to have an empire. We don't any more. Get over it.

I don't get the "we all need to work together" mantra that is spouted by brexit politicians (most of whom wouldn't recognise a business or a job if it bit them in the arse)

For me it's like your ex partner has maxed their overdraft and the plastic and says "let's work together" (I. E. You work as you have the skills and education) to pay this back. In the real world someone gets told to **** off.

we all need to work together

Why?

What happens at 3/19 if we don't have a deal?

teamhurtmore - Member

What happens at 3/19 if we don't have a deal?

That's not the point though.

This shiny new vision of a UK that bestrides the global stage, selling artisan sausages to Israel, or advanced weaponry to Argentina, or whatever is not *my* vision. It's the vision of people like Boris Johnson, David Davis, Nigel Farage, IDS, and that odious little back-stabber.

If we are truly all this in together then they should be going up and down the country enthusing all us bremoaners about why it's so amazing and why we should get stuck in.

But I don't see that. Boris Johnson appears to be MIA. Farage is cozying up with Trump. David Davis seems to be in hiding, and when he appears looks like a neurotic rabbit in the middle of a road with a BMW bearing down on it.

So I don't see why I should "work together" for a vision that these people can't even be bothered to enunciate. I don't know what the vision is. I don't agree with where it came from. And I don't have any confidence that it is remotely realistic.

Sorry, if that means that on 19/3 that the sky will fall in, then those people need to sort their act out.

À la lanterne!

It's very much the point, What happens and do you want that.

@oldnpastit yes but if you are proven wrong and the new globally focused UK is a great sucess whilst Europe plunges into a deep recession as a resuot of excessive government debt I imagine you'll be taking yoir share of all the benefits

jambalaya - Member

@oldnpastit yes but if you are proven wrong and the new globally focused UK is a great sucess whilst Europe plunges into a deep recession as a resuot of excessive government debt I imagine you'll be taking yoir share of all the benefits

Of course. I don't see any contradiction in that. Society has been fractured, and until it gets put back together, we're no longer "all in it together" (assuming we ever even were).

"back together"

Progress !

Jamba used the "if" word!

C'mon indulge me: what happens on 3/19 if we don't have a deal?

It you care, this IS a critical question...

I've started stocking up on tinned food so I'll be dandy.

C'mon indulge me: what happens on 3/19 if we don't have a deal?

We all thank May for her redlines and "no deal is better than a bad deal" negotiating strategy?

We admire the smiles on the faces of the "Brexit at any cost" ministers, while they're still promising us everything is about to get better, in every way?

We thank the MPs, politicians, and others, who warned this might happen, but supported and enabled May to do what she wants, regardless?

...and then what? . Come on, you claim that this is important and affects you greatly....

The pound collapses and I can finally afford a UK house?
The real answer is nobody really knows - the final option is a lot of things are not valid anymore, the status of UK and EU migrants is unknown etc. The UK needs reverts to the isolated shit hole UKIP want to get back to.

Aside from that nobody is going to indulge you THM.

Are you claiming to have no idea of any of the possible effects of us leaving the EU without having settled the terms of our exit?

Or are you talking about the exit terms being settled, but no new trade deal?

And no transition period, or delayed exit date?

Oh and trade is not part of the Exit terms (unless we agree to retain some kind of (word that THM can't be pedantic about) EU/EEA/Common market option.

But as our great PM has decided to not play ball on that by ruling out freedom of movement based only on the loud shouts of a vocal minority the level of access we (and Norway) enjoy today is not going to be an option.

I am simply asking what happens on 3/19 if no alternative trading arrangement.is in.place? A very simple yet fundamental question.

Edit: sorry mike but it's not true tha nobody knows, we know exactly what will happen. Exactly.

Third no country is entitled to lead the world, power moves, empires come and go. For the UK to move forward it needs to understand and leave the past behind.

Which is precisely the argument many leavers have made, Europe is the past and the future is elsewhere. Likewise Governments have a limited role in determining what businesses generate employment, they are limited to the Kevin Costner's role in "Field of Dreams", they put in place the policies to attract businesses and they will come.

You haven't asked a bounded question THM. No one can even attempt to answer your question unless you describe the exact situation you want us to describe the possible fall out from. Goodnight.

How much more bounded do you need?

What happens if no alternative trading agrreement is in place on 3/19?

Same question, simple, exact and precise with a known, clear and documented answer. Have a go tomorrow.

Sleep well.

From my personal position I run a business that employees well educated people (primarily graduates) and work in a space that is run and managed by well educated people. We don't employ people with little or no skills so Brexit will have limited impact on my business. So in reality I am not going to create work for low skilled people either local or immigrant. For Brexit to work it has to meet the needs of the working poor who voted out - I can't fix that with my business and out many on here can.

As far as I can see the only way the govt can fix this basic structural flaw is to borrow a lot (and I mean a lot) and invest in infrastructure and subsidise (bribe) overseas manufacturers to stay here. We have no real products to sell and few if any markets to sell into. My mate Bob is 52 he can read write and drive a forklift he is also unfit, over weight and thinks computers are for kids he is virtually unemployable and questionable value even on minimum wage - how do we fix this THM

If (when) there's no deal on 3/19 then hopefully parliament has the sense to revoke A50 and we get back to some semblance of normality many billions of pounds poorer and a global laughing stock. Tories will be unelectable for a generation but so are labour.

Is that really what you want to see thm? cos if we continue down this road it's the best achievable outcome.

As far as I can see the only way the govt can fix this basic structural flaw is to borrow a lot (and I mean a lot) and invest in infrastructure and subsidise (bribe) overseas manufacturers to stay here. We have no real products to sell and few if any markets to sell into. My mate Bob is 52 he can read write and drive a forklift he is also unfit, over weight and thinks computers are for kids he is virtually unemployable and questionable value even on minimum wage - how do we fix this THM

Maybe if all you highly educated people had not off shored all the job's Bob used to have you would not be sufering the wrath of Bob.

wicki - Member

Maybe if all you highly educated people had not off shored all the job's Bob used to have you would not be sufering the wrath of Bob.

If you walk into a shop and there are two products, both the same specification, but one is half the price of the other, which one do you buy?

If you walk into a shop and there are two products, both the same specification, but one is half the price of the other, which one do you buy?

Its looking more and more likely there will not be a deal of any sort either transitional or permanent. Mays red lines and the red lines of the 27 are completely incompatible. Either she is going to have to compromise a huge amount or we will crash out with no deal.

nickjb - Member

Does one say it is artisan or maybe have a picture of an Apple on it?

The one with a picture of an apple on it is made in Shanghai. The artisan one is actually just assembled in the UK by a guy from Poland from parts actually made in China.

What happens if no alternative trading agrreement is in place on 3/19?

It depends, not least on… if we have an exit agreement, and what it is… if we have agreed a transitional period or delayed exit date… and if we have the same government with the same "will of the people" "no chance to correct our course" policy.

Do you want us to try and answer for all possible scenarios that include "no alternative trading arrangement on 3/19"?

Some pre morning coffee sketches…

- No exit agreement or FTA at deadline, both sides prepared to delay exit in order to continue to discuss both, and prevent the worst damage to both sides.

- No exit agreement or FTA, we leave EU in dispute of our international treaties signed, the EU leaders are incensed enough to apply punitive sanctions and tariffs and apply to WTO for resolution, no falling back on WTO rates unless/until WTO makes ruling and appeals fail.

- Exit agreement but no FTA, parliament votes against exit agreement, either because the high financial burden makes it look like the EU are being unfair (and voters were told one of the main reasons for Brexit would be stopping money going to EU) or because the lack of any FTA is just too damaging to constituents interests. PM seeks a mandate to press on, or MPs resign and force byelections that get fought on issues surrounding government competence, at a time when emergency measures are being sought to keep companies afloat or in the country.

What any of this has to to with me, I have no idea… I'd be looking to our politicians and civil servants to steer us though all this somehow. That doesn't stop me calling for either a way to stop us leaving the EU, or for us to leave in a way that minimises barriers between us and the EU, for both trade and people.

Far from it, a deal is looking MORE likely than it did over the weekend with the Germans making positive overtones - we really do have stay in the real world here not some imaginary angry place that clouds judgement. Not that this is likely in some quarters.

But Cap'n, you point towards the issue that I was getting at. If I understand correctly, you appear to be assuming that if we have no deal them we all look a little stupid but defaul to the staus quo. WE DON'T.

One of the two key reasons for the SC ruling was the fact that A50 is irrevocable. This is not an exercise, this is the real thing. As someone said recently, "We ARE leaving e EU, Brexshit means Brexshit."

So to answer my own question, what happens if there is no alternative trading agreement in place is that we default to trading under WTO rules. We do no carry on with the existing ruls - that is a misunderstanding. IMO relying on WTO rules is the least attractive of all the available options for continuing ACESS TO the single market in terms of liberalising trade even if it is the one that gives maximum fake control.

So is is the outcome WE MUST avoid. How do we do that? We DO NOT obstruct the givernment for obstructing sakor nor or political expediance. [b]We ALL HAVE a responsibility to make BREXSHIT work otherwise we end up with WTO.[/b]

So it's time to get out of the fantasy land and engage with the reality of what is in from of us, like it or not.

Edit for X-post, kelvin in relation to your final comment that is what is currently happening. We shall see what the result is but in the meantime we can all make the process work or not work. That is OUR choice and the one for which we take personal responsibility

we default to trading under WTO rules

Or not, it depends.

So is is the outcome WE MUST avoid. How do we do that? We DO NOT obstruct the givernment for obstructing sakor nor or political expediance. We ALL HAVE a responsibility to make BREXSHIT work otherwise we end up with WTO.

So it's

There is absolutly no way the UK public or in fact parliament can get in the way of the government in this process. There is no mechanism for that to happen. TM et al made very sure of that. What it doesn't mean is that people should just shut up and accept it, they should make theor voices and feelings known especially as things are given away to maintain her little red lines - you know starting the negotiating before it starts...

Just remember the harder vote will be the qualified majority of EU members not the UK. The UK will rightly have to put up with what the get as the alternative is even worse.

trouble with the WTO option is as I understand it we are not a member - or only through our EU membership. so even WTO would need negotiations

Not it doesn't depend, it's clear

If no alternative trading arrangement is in place two years after Article 50 is triggered, UK-EU trade would by default take place under WTO rules. As the UK is unlikely to be able to retain access to the EU’s FTAs with third countries after Brexit, WTO rules will also form the basis of the UK’s trade with the rest of the world.

This is what needs to be avoided.

British attempts to “blackmail and divide” EU countries in the run-up to Brexit negotiations will lead to a disastrous “crash-landing” out of the bloc, European politicians have told the Guardian.

A leaked European parliament report seen by the Guardian goes even further, accusing Britain of trying to “move the goalposts and do away with the referee” in the upcoming international clash of negotiators once article 50 is invoked.

“The British government tries to divide and rule,” he said. “They believe they can take members of parliament out of certain nations … to win support by dividing us. If they try to negotiate while trying to interfere in our side then we can do that too. We can make a big fuss over Scotland. Or Northern Ireland.”

A foreword to the report suggests it will be “difficult if not impossible” to get agreement among the EU27 and their national parliaments.

On the substance of a transitional deal, it adds that allowing the UK to continue in the single market without respecting the jurisdiction of the European court or permitting free movement would be like “allowing a national football association to decide it will set its own rules on the size of the ball, the number of players on the field and the width of the goal and do away with the referee, whilst purporting still to be able to take part in the European championship”.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-31/may-spells-out-immigration-limits-as-the-first-brexit-red-line

So it's time to get out of the fantasy land and engage with the reality of what is in from of us, like it or not.

Thm, no the question of a50 being revocable is open and the topic of a forthcoming legal case. You must know this if you've been paying any attention at all. The recent high court case assumed it was irrevocable as neither side (in that case) disputed it. Doesn't mean they are right.

With respect Captain, I will take the opinion of the SC judges over yours with the respect to the legal background to what is going on

I appreciate that the idea of making things difficult for the government may well be well intentioned but it is simply misguided. It's very, very simple - the law of unintented consequences:

1. We voted to leave the EU. This IS going to happen. The only uncertainty is under what terms
2. Of all the options available, WTO is the least attractive and the one to avoid
3, Obstructing the government's attempts to achieve a deal, or voting down the final deal, make this worse case more likely or certain to happen

Ergo: we all have a responsibility to make this work. You choose....

(FWIW, one of the safer bets in all of this is that there will be some compromise on FoM, that is simple common sense. But it's current status, as the key reason for leaving, does make EEA membership unlikely - although that assumes that other EEA members would want us anyway. That is not a given)

On a positive note and looking for silver linings, it is great to see those of a LW persuasion now fully behind the idea of the four freedoms. Some progress amidst the darkness!!!