[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

We the unheard need a leader.. a person of integrity and common sense. Someone to take us back to the promised eu land. No need to part the waters we have a tunnel..

Any suggestions (asked Binners but he said he would only take a seat on the front bench as Secretary of Culture) come on Europatriates we need a leader..

I never thought I'd say this about a Tory but I'm warming towards Ken Clarke. He is already doing a good job in his new role as the leader of HM opposition. Just needs to cross the chamber to complete the transformation, rally the troops and try to temper the increasingly unchecked plans of the brexiteers. Maybe he could donate some of his backbone to all those in the chamber who seem to have lost theirs as well.

Both backbone and bollocks are now declared unwanted by a three line whip... Corbyn man of the people "my arse"

Fantastic new poll results in the "everyone's a racist" challenge:

[img] [/img]

https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/what-do-europeans-think-about-muslim-immigration

So the conclusion is that 40-60% of europeans have a dislike of muslim immigration? Sits about right with the Brexit vote in the UK.
Are you celebrating that there are people who seem to have a problem with Islam? What do you think are the causes of that? Misinformation? Lumping together a heap of unrelated facts and imposing them on a religion as a whole?
Lack of understanding that religion and terroism are not the same thing?
Or just there are a bunch of racist bigots out there?

Yeah, that's my experience, Ninfan. We're a friendly welcoming place and always have been.

Fantastic new poll results in the "everyone's a racist" challenge:

It's ok, because everyone else does it.

Being honest, I think people are, in general, a lot more racist than they like to admit or realise. A hard wired fear/mistrust of the different.

outofbreath - Member
Yeah, that's my experience, Ninfan. We're a friendly welcoming place and always have been.

That's an ambiguous question, Ninfan.

Meaning 1: there should not be more immigration from countries that are muslim than countries that have some other faith or no faith.

I agree, there shouldn't be discrimination on the basis of the religion of the country of origin.

Meaning 2: there shouldn't be any immigration from countries in which the majority of the population is Muslim.

I disagree.

In fact if I'd been polled I'd have binned the paper or told them to get lost as I don't answer loaded questions - so only those incapable of spotting a loaded question responded and we have no idea how they interpreted the question or how their answer reflects their views on immigration.

Polls only reflect the views of those who respond, if you tell them to FRO with their racist shit you don't even get recorded as don't know.

I think people are, in general, a lot more racist than they like to admit or realise. A hard wired fear/mistrust of the different.

Always have been and always will be. Muslims are the new mass fear which is now global. Whereas in the 50/60s the UK could just have a fear of Indian, black (Caribbean) and Irish they can now join the world against muslims.

I would say the same/more are homophobic if a poll was performed on that.

On a positive note, the UK is only bettered by Spain in that poll.

Maybe the Spanish translation of the question was less loaded. On first reading I'd have answered "I agree", then realised what I agree meant and changed to "I disagree" and felt irritation with the ambiguous nature of the question.

Brooess, you are correct that you hopes are misplaced: (1) TM doesn't believe in such a distinction; (2) she is currently pitched in the middle of the range of options and more like to compromise towards the softer end of the spectrum.. Other than that....

So how well has Ken Clarke down?

1. Like many of us, lost the argument - cross
2. Decided to ignore the result - cross
3. Achieved no delay and no amendments - cross
4. Happy in himself, looked less of a fool that Dianne Abbott - tick, but not hard

1/4 is not a great result is it?

Why are you having a go at Ken Clarke?

I am not, I am having a go at the idea that he has already done a good job. He hasn't. He has behaved as expected but with little impact either way. Ok he has been more effective that leader of HM Opposition, but since the bill has been passed without delay and/or ammendements that is not saying much.

If you want to criticise KC, you could of course point to his desire to join the folly that is/was the € but we all know that by now.l

If you want to criticise KC, you could of course point to his desire to join the folly that is/was the € but we all know that by now.l

Not "all", not joining the Euro cost Britain trade and holiday makers. The fluctuating pound has been a handicap for some (currency traders excluded). Britain would have doen better with it IMO.

Well, at least you added IMO when flying in the face of all the evidence.

Cos he's now achieved national treasure status as an honest politician?
Ken that is - I have no opinion on THM.

He is delightful company and brilliant after dinner speaker. Getting v v frail these days though.

Only to be expected.

He has got very good mileage out of two ties - one in particular....

You want evidence about something that never happened, THM. There is no point of comparison. An opportunity was missed but unfortunately there is no proof of how well Britain would have done with the Euro as it never happened.

Can we apply that same test nest time someone tells us how good the EU has been for us?

[i]I am not, I am having a go at the idea that he has already done a good job. He hasn't. He has behaved as expected but with little impact either way. Ok he has been more effective that leader of HM Opposition, but since the bill has been passed without delay and/or ammendements that is not saying much.[/I]

So you're saying whenever there is to be a vote (on any subject) all participants should first work out who they think will win, and just vote that way - in fact they should do this before any debate, and if they think it's a win (either way), just not have the debate either and just vote?

An unoposed bill is another gift for Sturgeon and her cause.
Proof that Westminster is not bothered about Scottish interests

4. Happy in himself

Nothing wrong with MPs voting for what they think is right.

MPs [b]should[/b] be voting in a fashion that makes them "happy in themselves", rather than voting as lobby fodder for two flawed leaders, neither of which seem to want the government held to account by MPs when it comes to the big changes ahead.

So everyone goes on about how it's terrible how guarantees haven't been made to EU nationals in the UK, but the amendment to do just that fails. As does the one about money for the NHS.

What a bunch of absolute spineless cowards those [b][s]Leave[/s][/b] politicians are.

Fixed.

You need to remember there were more Remain than Leave politicians voting on those amendments.

Your distain needs spreading a bit wider.

You want evidence about something that never happened, THM. There is no point of comparison. An opportunity was missed but unfortunately there is no proof of how well Britain would have done with the Euro as it never happened.

So lets look at the evidence:

1. The Euro Area does not fulfil the criteria for a single currency - fail #1
2. Ingoring 1, the Euro was badly designed with two key elements missing - fail #2
3. Ignoring 1 and 2 (get the driftt?), the Euro was badly executed from the start - fail #3
4. Without the missing elements (2), the inevitable surpluses have not been recycled - fail #4
5. Countries with high labour costs have had to suffer catastrophic levels of youth unemployment and wage deflation - fail #5

{this is looking good so far, isnt it?]

6. Monetary policy has been ineffective - fail #6
7. Growth has been below trend - fail #7

Do we need any more? Right in front of our eyes we can see how and why the € has failed. How much more evidence do you need?

Good job we missed that opportunity.

I'll substitute success for failure for five of those and point out that the high labour cost issue is not currency related. The countries with the highest levels of youth employment are those with the lowest wages, and unemployment was an issue in those countries before the Euro. When I worked in Spain in 88/89 unemployment was around 20%.

You are blaming the euro for structural problems that are not currency related and ignoring the benefits of easier trad, mobility of everything and the currency stability being a member of a big currency block gives. There has been low inflation and slow moving exchange rates for a couple of decades, that's great for business.

I'll substitute success for failure for five of those

You may, but you would be simply incorrect. The evidence is crystal clear.

and point out that the high labour cost issue is not currency related.

True, but a fixed currencies mean that there are only two policy options - wage deflation, unemployment - we have seen a dramatic shift in both with appalling social consequences.

The countries with the highest levels of youth employment are those with the lowest wages, and unemployment was an issue in those countries before the Euro.

Partially true - not bad

You are blaming the euro for structural problems that are not currency related

No I am not.

and ignoring the benefits of easier trad, mobility of everything and the currency stability being a member of a big currency block gives. There has been low inflation and slow moving exchange rates for a couple of decades, that's great for business.

No again! My opposition to Brexshit is very much around easier trade, free movement of everything arguments. Both real benefits.

I was also encouraged that we were not part of the flawed currency regime. We had a great deal. It was that that was "great for business" not membership of the €.

Not "all", not joining the Euro cost Britain trade and holiday makers. The fluctuating pound has been a handicap for some (currency traders excluded). Britain would have doen better with it IMO.

😯 😯 😯 😯 😯 😯 😯 😯 😯 😯 😯

You (eurozone taxpayer) are propping up a country where the average medical professional earns €40k pa but declares €15k and half of all people in work pay no tax (EU avg 8%). You are doing this so your own currency / economy doesn't collapse under the weight of contagion to a big portion of other eurozone members.

Read this yeasterday

http://www.imf.org/~/media/Files/Publications/CR/2017/cr1740.ashx

Those of us not in manufacturing had the ideal deal (in EU but outside Eurozone) but it could be argued that our manufacturing base would be very different now if we'd been inside both, we'll never know.

Also, someone made a valid point just now… many years down the line we'll never know how much better off we'd have been staying in the EU, so leavers will always be able to dismiss the idea that the more damaging path was taken.

The telling quote from that Jambas:

Debt relief: Even with these ambitious policies in place, [b]Greece cannot grow out of its debt
problem. Greece requires substantial debt relief [/b]from its European partners to restore debt
sustainability.

The Germans dont understand/wont accept this. That is why G is screwed. This is all part of the flawed construct of the EZ - its inevitable

An unoposed bill is another gift for Sturgeon and her cause.
Proof that Westminster is not bothered about Scottish interests

Scotland's interests are best served by being outside the EU but remaining in the Union
SNP's interests are best served by Scotland being outside the UK

half of all people in work pay no [b][ income ][/b] tax.

This is also true of the UK.

SNP interests do not equal interest of Scottish people - simple!

Kelvin - any source for that?

Nope, I made it up.

I'm applying Jamabafaction to all my replies to him now. I was relying on others letting it slide…

Scotland's interests are best served by being outside the EU but remaining in the Union

Ah hah!

So you agree that the democratic result (Scotland voting remain) isn't always in the electorate's best interests?

Checkmate.

Nope, I made it up.

Fair do's 😀

"Scotland's interests are best served by being outside the EU but remaining in the Union"

Why? As far as Scotland is concerned, Westminster is effectively an undemocratic supranational power with apparently little interest in the wants and needs of the Scottish people. I thought those were some of the key issues the brexiteers had with the EU?

SNP's interests are best served by Scotland being outside the UK

As far as Scotland is concerned, Westminster is effectively an undemocratic supranational power with apparently little interest in the wants and needs of the Scottish people.

odd that they voted in the way they did then?

But just for fun, lets assume that you are correct. Why would they now seek to swap high levels of devolved power for a transfer of economic (and political?) sovereignty to [s]Frankfurt[/s] Brussels?

Even an eight year old can see that that is "pish"

odd that they voted in the way they did then?

Not really. I suspect that for all it's faults they feel that an outward-looking progressive EU better matches their political views than an inward-looking Westminster riven with little englanders harking back to the days of empire.

I'll grant you that economically it probably doesn't make too much sense, but as we've already firmly established that economics play second fiddle in these arguments, I can't see much difference.

And in any case, any eight year old can tell you that were Scotland independent of the UK but an EU member it would have more control over its affairs than it has currently. So I'm not quite sure what point you were trying to make unless it was to further highlight your cognitive dissonance on this thread.

"pish" indeed

(dont forget the Welsh and N Irish BTW)

But bravo on bringing in some of Alex's rhetoric from last night. He was on a roll wasnt he - down the wrong slope, but on a roll nonetheless.

I see you're only resorting to dismissing an argument as "pish" when it's an argument you've comprehensively lost. Pretty poor form imo

an inward-looking Westminster riven with little englanders harking back to the days of empire.

Strange, I thought that they were leading us into becoming the 51st State of the USA?

Why would they now seek to swap high levels of devolved power for a transfer of economic (and political?) sovereignty to Frankfurt Brussels?
Even an eight year old can see that that is "pish"

we all know the high regard you have for scotland but you would need to be spectacularly inept to think an independent scotland within the EU has not got more freedom than a devolved parliament - the words alone tell you which has the greatest autonomy.

SNP interests do not equal interest of Scottish people - simple!

All this is is yet another example of THM going i hate the SNP and I know what is best for the scottish people- with the usual childish name calling.

We get it you hate the SNP- FWIW it seems pretty clear that a party that campaigned on staying in the EU representing a country that voted to remain should vote to remain/not vote for A 50 - its just democratic. You can disagree with the electorate but its particularly daft to attack them for doing what they said they would and what their electorate want.

We get it you hate the SNP no matter what they do and say we have all worked this out so stop using silly arguments to further highlight how your hatred has overcome your intellect.

THM I think the die has been cast for an indie scotland now, unless a hard brexit can be avoided, which i seriously doubt.

as you are so fond of pointing out its time to make the best of a bad situation, just as with Brexshit

they may as well just get on with indyref2 so we can all get to work trying to make things better

get a room. 😀

SNP's interests are best served by Scotland being outside the UK

Boot. Other foot. Enjoy.

And in any case, any eight year old can tell you that were Scotland independent of the UK but an EU member it would have more control over its affairs than it has currently.

😀 No really - your (mis)understanding of what is happening in the EZ knows no bounds. Ditto devolved power. But, fair enough, you did say that you cant see much difference. Guilt admitted.

So I'm not quite sure what point you were trying to make unless it was to further highlight your cognitive dissonance on this thread.

Those are very big words. Send a tweet to alex, he could find a use for them.

It is 'pish" clearly but I look forward to it being spun - just stay upwind would be my advice

I know I've said this before and its anecdotal, but many of my anti-independence associates/family/friends are now firmly in favour of independence, if it gets offered again.

And also- trying to apply the "but it makes sense for Scotland to stay, cos: facts!" argument falls spectacularly on its face post-Brexit, which shows that people aren't interested in facts any more- we've debated that to death on this thread, and I hold that to be the new truth.

So, anything can happen.

"Queen Nicola" for instance?

Cody, once the dust has settled, they will see sense

The UK has all the criteria for a single currency area
It has all of the elements in place - it works
Surpluses are recycled across the UK and there is political accountability
Regions have growing levels of devolved power
The UK will continue to have access to the single market post Brexshit

...but lets throw that away in a fit of pique??? A few hot-heads aside, Scots are too canny to fall for that.

"And also- trying to apply the "but it makes sense for Scotland to stay, cos: facts!" argument falls spectacularly on its face post-Brexit,"

...and this is why there will never be another Referendum unless the establishment don't GAF which way it goes.

And in any case, any eight year old can tell you that were Scotland independent of the UK but an EU member it would have more control over its affairs than it has currently.

No one can seriously argue against this, I wouldn't, and I desperately want Scotland to stay in the UK.

What is even more worrying, is how Westminster's increased powers in a few years time (it is they who are getting "their country back" after all), will further shift that equation.

Depressingly for the Scots though, they do not have the option of being outside the UK, but inside the EU.

No really - your (mis)understanding of what is happening in the EZ knows no bounds

An INDEPENDENT nation MUST have more power than a DEVOLVED nation
Its not even debatable and if it is it is with an intellectual point rather than your usual scorn for those not as bright as you - which is ironic given how wrong you are being

The UK will continue to have access to the single market post Brexshit

No one can seriously argue against this

At least you are not alone zokes - take comfort in that!

half of all people in work pay no tax

You're looking at income tax.

Now compare NI + income tax with Impôts sur le revenue + CSG/RDS + charges socilaes, in other words all direct taxes on earned income.

And don't forget that there has been a transfer for the tax burden to the regions so people will be paying:

Taxe foncière
Taxe d'habitation
Taxe foncière professionelle

Claming people in one of most taxed countries on the planet pay les tax in incorrect. The tax burden is more equitably spread, and that is a good thing but not seen as such by those rich banker types like you, Jamba. But then you pay tax in the UK rather than France (if you pay any at all being a banker type). 😉

It's a system, it's fairer, but the big corporations don't like it so abuse EU treaties to avoid tax in France by having offices in London, Luxembourg or Dublin. That is one abuse of the EU I'd like to see stopped. They're working on it apparently.

WHy not just engage rather than do this ? not only is he not alone no one is agreeing with you[ because what you said is clearly false] and you are not even trying to persuade anyone just be shitty/mocking to anyone who disagrees with you.

Its a very strange MO you have on here THM as all you want to do is be scornful and not actually bother to present an argument.

THM, I hoped I'd get a more sensible debate from you. Stop being a sad little child and try to grow up a little, you'll find it beneficial in the long run I'm sure.

But just as a hint: Scotland is currently a member of the UK, which is also (for now) a member of the EU. Scotland has some devolved powers from Westminster, but a lot are not. Westminster has some powers subjugated by Brussels, but a lot are not. If the UK leaves the EU, and Scotland leaves the UK but joins the EU it will gain far more powers from no longer being bound to Westminster than it would loose from being a member of the EU, which it currently is via the UK anyway.

Your argument makes no sense. You know that, but can't deal with it as being a little Tory you hate the SNP more than you hate arguments that make no sense, ergo cognitive dissonance. I suggest you try to spend a little longer formulating your arguments and you might actually come up with a vaguely logical position.

FWIW I try to avoid anything either fish-related politician says as I'm not a particularly big fan of either of them myself.

And just a point on currency. Right now, Scotland uses the GBP, a currency that it has no control over, and one that has lost >20% of its value in a few months (and indeed 10% in just one day at one point). If a condition of a future independent Scotland joining the EU was that it had to adopt the Euro, it would still be using a currency it has no control over. You could probably make some fairly convincing arguments about the Euro as a viable currency, but a GBP in a non-EU UK that's bled a huge chunk of its income and wealth in the process of leaving the EU doesn't sound too rosy either.

You're looking at [b]income[/b] tax.

I made that point. But there's no point. It's Jamba, just skip over his misdirections and create your own. It's 2017.

I presumed he meant Greece not France by the way…

Scotland is [u]currently[/u] a member of the UK

ahem:

[i]first day of May next ensuing the date hereof [u]and forever after[/u][/i]

😀

You see, not something that you can leave, unlike the EU with its pesky Article 50

but a GBP in a non-EU UK that's bled a huge chunk of its income and wealth in the process of leaving the EU doesn't sound too rosy either.

Even less rosy without Scotland.

A smaller UK, without Scotland, and outside the EU, and not operating in the Single Market, seemed an unimaginable nightmare only a few years ago… I wouldn't bet my home on it now…

Thanks for your generous advice zokes - it will be treated with the appropriate level of respect

But just as a hint: Scotland is currently a member of the UK, which is also (for now) a member of the EU. Scotland has some devolved powers from Westminster, but a lot are not. Westminster has some powers subjugated by Brussels, but a lot are not. If the UK leaves the EU, and Scotland leaves the UK but joins the EU it will gain far more powers from no longer being bound to Westminster than it would loose from being a member of the EU, which it currently is via the UK anyway.

To use your quote - this is what makes no sense. You clearly do not understand how the UK/EZ and common currencies work? Until you do, there is no sensible debate to be had.

But here's a hint - think about how surpluses are recycled within the UK but not within the EZ. Ask yourself why this is the case and what are the implications (the answers are in the last few pages). Then "spend a little longer formulating your arguments and you might (?) actually come up with a vaguely logical position".

You are correct - I do dislike the lies that the SNP tell, their track record and they way they deliberately confuse their own self-interests with the interests (sic) of the Scottish people. They are snake-oil salesmen with a poor reord of delivery. They use all the smokes and mirrors possible to confuse reality and rhetoric #SDBMB

and not operating in the Single Market,

Still having problems with this?

Nope.

In what sense is this a debate THM its just you trying to be clever saying **** all and pretending to be the brightest person in the room

You clearly do not understand how the UK/EZ and common currencies work? Until you do, there is no sensible debate to be had.

Look in the mirror THM. I fail to find any problem with Zokes' appreciation of the situation.

If you and Jamba knew anything at all about where Greek assets have gone over the last ten years you'd be talking about the problems caused by that financial rogue state Switzerland, not the Euro.

And in any case, any eight year old can tell you that were Scotland independent of the UK but an EU member it would have more control over its affairs than it has currently

Any eight year old can probably tell you that if Dingwall left the UK and became an independent city-state then it would have a lot more control over its affairs than it does within the UK, or within an independent Scotland.

That doesn't make Independence For Dingwall a good idea.

True but that is not what he said he said independence led to sending of powers to elsewhere and , as you note, that is not true as something independent has more freedom than something devolved

Why would they now seek to swap high levels of devolved power for a transfer of economic (and political?) sovereignty to Frankfurt Brussels?

the only way to think otherwise is to not understand the words meanings or to hate the SNP so much you will post BS whilst saying they are snake oil salesmen who spread BS ...Oh the irony

You are correct THM on what the SNP do to some degree[ what politicians dont?] what I have never understood is why you then do the same
Still they say the people we hate the most are the ones most like us...is that the reason?

For anyone thats interested, here's an excellent article on how big data, precise analytics, and spot-on targeting of FB articles swung Brexit and Trump:

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/how-our-likes-helped-trump-win

Have we not done that to death Codybrennan?
Check out the articles showing that, while there is some truth in it, that Daz Magazin article is overblown.

[ edit - I've dug a short one up to save us time : http://boingboing.net/2017/02/01/trumps-big-data-secret-sau.html ]

I fail to find any problem with Zokes' appreciation of the situation.

Obviously. But two wrongs dont make a right.

If you and Jamba knew anything at all about where Greek assets have gone over the last ten years you'd be talking about the problems caused by that financial rogue state Switzerland, not the Euro.

FWIW, Jambas and I disagree on most aspects relating to Greece, other than the fact that Greek debt is unsustainable - a point I highlighted from the IMF report earlier.

Having spend a large part of the 90s/early naughties working closely with Greek banks, I am comfortable with my awareness of what has gone on - thank you.

If YOU fail to understand that the role of the € in the Greek crisis, then you are admitting all we need to know. But you are partially correct in pointing out the variety of factors involved.

ah dismissing again without evidence and an appeal to your own authority*

If this wont convince folk then what will ?

Still this SNP people eh god they are disingenuous aren't they 😉

Edukator

here are two good reads

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Weak-Suffer-What-They-Must/dp/1847924034/ref=pd_sim_14_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=C3F5ZRE2YJYM07TMZP98

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Global-Minotaur-America-Economic-Controversies/dp/178360610X/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=CW9N2K83GDT646ZFAWCV

Amazon try to flog Mason's book with them, but it is a very pale immitatian. In contrast Varoufakis is a much better argument.

codybrennan - Member
I know I've said this before and its anecdotal, but many of my anti-independence associates/family/friends are now firmly in favour of independence, if it gets offered again.

This^^^, anecodtally.... I have 4 cousins in Scotland, going by their FB
2 were pro indy, 2 I have no idea, ever since brexit all 4 have become ever more vocally pro indy, even the one who plays video games for a living and smokes a lot of weed has suddenly become political.

Post the Brexit vote May and the actions of the Brexiters (and corbyn) have succeeded in alienating them superbly

and my favourite Varoufakis quote

Encouraging free trade by removing tariffs and quotas may be combined profitably with attempts to fix exchange rates in order to make long-term prices more predictable for buyers and sellers, but to do this and at the same time allow for the free movement of money across borders is to ask for serious trouble. The reason for this is that when money is free to travel, during the good times it follows higher interest rates. Deficit countries offer higher rates and, given a fixed exchange rate, are very attractive for the excess money of surplus states. But this causes a build-up of debt in the deficit regions that goes bad at the first sign of an economic downturn. [b]For this reason, one of the few things economists tend to agree on is that the freedom of goods and money to travel unimpeded cannot be combined with fixed exchange rates, unless a political surplus recycling mechanism is also part of the deal.[/b]

Neither the Germans nor Jambas agree with this - they put the blame fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the poor Greeks.

You may recall the misguided response of the Scottish Nats when Carney was making essentially the same point. But then again, they didn't understand currencies either.

And some homework - what is required for a political surplus mechanism and then try to reconcile this with the BS currently coming from the SNP

i think it has just further highlighted to the Scots how being in the UK means doing what england wants not what Scotland wants an that being in the UK union may not be better than being in the EU union.
This is a big big issue to be overruled/ignored on and will clearly add to the wish to be independent from some waverers and just fuel the independent lot.

I expect a vote at some point that the rUK does not authorise and may not recognise - unless they win it.

Clearly the SNP will use any opportunity to try and gain independence - I am not sure this is a reason to despise them. I rather suspect your view on whether this is savvy or opportunistic rather depends on what you think of independence

[quote=Junkyard ]i think it has just further highlighted to the Scots how being in the UK means doing what england wants not what Scotland wants an that being in the UK union may not be better than being in the EU union.
This is a big big issue to be overruled/ignored on and will clearly add to the wish to be independent from some waverers and just fuel the independent lot.
I expect a vote at some point that the rUK does not authorise and may not recognise - unless they win it.
Clearly the SNP will use any opportunity to try and gain independence - I am not sure this is a reason to despise them. I rather suspect your view on whether this is savvy or opportunistic rather depends on what you think of independence

In the eyes of Jamba and his cohorts, my country of Scotland is not even a country at all, merely a region, therefore we have no sway...

Consider what would have happened in Greece without the Euro. So entry was fudged as they never met the conditions, because the structural problems were there before they joined the Euro zone.

The IMF has admitted grossly mismanaging the Greek and other Euro debt problems yet feels free to criticise when it is at heart of the problem. The IMF saved the banks, not Greece.

The key as far as I'm concerned is that anyone in Greece with any assets took part in a capital flight transferring their assets abroad. This is also what happened to the money injected into Greece by the IMF. It was laundered through Switzerland, barely transiting by Greece.

So there are a series of issues with the EURO as one of the minor issues that cause the crisis and a major factor in preventing the country going completely tits up. From the point of view of Greek citizens, the few Euros they have in their pockets are worth something, I doubt that would have been the case if they had hung on to drachmas, they'd have ended up with hyper inflation and worthless notes in their pockets. It would be nice if the money belonging to wealthy Greeks were being recycled in the Greek economy rather than festering in Swiss vaults.