[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

STWers can read the article and draw their own conclusions. I just pasted a fact that stood out to me personally.

I know with no context or explanation or opinion , on its own it's potentially misleading to say the least. What conclusions did you draw from it?

"I know with no context or explanation or opinion , on its own it's potentially misleading to say the least."

The link is just above it, you can't get much more context than that.

"What conclusions did you draw from it?"

I conclude that the UK's quotas allow fishermen based here to catch around 30pc of fish in UK waters.

OOB,a worthy daily mail headline, I'm sure. 🙄

I conclude from it that
Regarding france's cod quota...

in the North Sea it received only 4%

Or perhaps

The research also points out the fact that many species of fish migrate widely and so it is very difficult to determine exactly fish would be British fish in the first place.

Or

If we left the EU it wouldn’t necessarily mean that the situation would improve. The House of Commons Library has said that “many of the underlying issues that affect fisheries management would remain unchanged.”

Or

It’s also impossible to determine what the policy on fishing would be if we left the EU and things wouldn’t necessarily be any better.

Actually OOB your selective quoting is a brilliant example of how the leave movement, especially Borris and the right wing press have built a campaign on a tissue of lies and missinformation over many years
and highlights nicely the correlation between those who didn't do well at school and leave voting.

I am always impressed that the fish know where the borders are. Must be difficult in all that murky water.

Post Brexit, underwater border controls will solve that issue.

Can we tag "our" fish with Union Jacks so that the foreigners know to leave them alone?

"British Fish, for British Chips" #BF4BC

"Actually OOB your selective quoting is a brilliant example of how the leave movement, especially Borris and the right wing press have built a campaign on a tissue of lies and missinformation over many years
and highlights nicely the correlation between those who didn't do well at school and leave voting."

Yes, fishermen are probably on average less educated but on this issue I don't think they're necessarily wrong. It's a fact that due to UK fishing in the early 70s being largely around Iceland over 2/3rds of fishing around the UK is now denied to UK fishermen.

The sole counter to that in the fullfact article is "If we leave, the situation for fishermen might not improve" which is a pretty weak argument to remain WRT to fishing.

I'm not sure that Fishermen who voted to leave were voting against their own interests at all, on the basis of that fullfact link ( https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-pinching-our-fish/) they may well have a point.

I'm basing this purely on the full fact article, which might be missing some critical evidence.

We should probably stick to fishing but the fishing angle make me wonder if it's possible that poorly educated people are not idiots, they just tend to do things that face the strongest competition from the EU - Trades/Fishing etc. wheras people in the highly educated service sectors face less competition? I don't know if that's true, just throwing it in the air to see where it lands.

Seems to me, there must be winners and losers if we stay in just as there would be winners and losers if we left. Is it really impossible that UK Fishermen might be better off? As always the answer depends on what deals get done, and that we can't predict.

Is it really impossible that UK Fishermen might be better off? As always the answer depends on what deals get done, and that we can't predict.

If the amount of fish available is increased by leaving its possible, but nowhere does it suggest that the amount of fish available will increase. Sensible fishing limits are there for a reason and the UK government sets them.

Perhaps the fishermen think there's a chance that (for instance) the quota could be reduced by 1/3, but because there were no foreign vessels using the quota that amount the amount available for them would double.

Fish get better protection because 1/3 less fish get caught, Uk fishing industry doubles in size. Win-win.

Perhaps Uk fishermen think something like that is best case, and worst case is no change.

I really don't see how they're being dumb about this or mislead in any way at all.

Perhaps Uk fishermen think something like that is best case, and worst case is no change.

I really don't see how they're being dumb about this or mislead in any way at all.

Where are they getting this wonderful information from?

Perhaps fishermen have a pretty good understanding of their own industry, or perhaps, like me, their sole knowledge of UK fishing comes from that full fact article.

Perhaps there should be a campaign against free movement of fish after all or a sort of reverse brexit where EU fish are allowed to enter our waters but can only leave via approved nets

Perhaps everyone who voted for Brexit thinks "leaving the EU" is best case, and worst case is no change.
I really don't see how they're being dumb about this or mislead in any way at all.

Right.

You are neglecting the fact that by preventing the EU fleet to the oither 2/3 of our quota area, we would ourselves be prevented from sending the 2/3rds of our fleet to other EU territorial waters. This hasn't all happened in isolation. There was give and take on both sides and a balance formed. If UK quota owners chose to sell theirs to Spanish companies then that was their perogative at the time. No good crying about it now

You are neglecting the fact that by preventing the EU fleet to the oither 2/3 of our quota area, we would ourselves be prevented from sending the 2/3rds of our fleet to other EU territorial waters.

The fullfact article doesn't say that 2/3s of our fleet get access to European waters, it would be a glaring omission if that weren't the case.

However, let's assume they do:

1) Fishermen might consider that leaving will be totally neutral to Uk fishermen they lose 2/3 and gain a different 2/3 nearer to home.
2) Maybe the vessels that travel further are larger, more automated and employ less people, so when it comes to vote time there's a bias of people on the nearer trade and the larger ships fishing off continental Europe are under represented in the vote. Or as you say, quotas might have been sold abroad in which case the Fishermen using our quota won't even be voting.

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/british-fishermen-want-out-of-the-eu-heres-why/

from your link OOB

The data does not provide a robust explanation for reasons for this confidence,

a brilliant summary of brexit right there 😛

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38885167 ]more good news for the hms brexshit.[/url]

from your link OOB "The data does not provide a robust explanation for reasons for this confidence" a brilliant summary of brexit right there

In your quote they're talking specifically about the sale of their produce. So all other things being equal Fishermen will be able to harvest 3 times more fish, and the quid pro-quo is they will have to pay tariffs on the export into the EU, at the same time supply from EU fishermen will have reduced in the Europe.

They might well consider the potential reward outweighs the risk. (The only risk is that the EU impose some kind of fishing related condition in whatever deal is agreed and if so it's hard to imagine they'd do something harsher than the existing deal.)

Yes, Fishermen may be be poorly educated. They might have got it wrong, but it just doesn't seem to me they're mislead or stupid in this case, it looks reasonable and logical to me.

In your quote

So all other things being equal

which your article states several times they may not be, because no one knows what deal will be negotiated

Yes, Fishermen may be be poorly educated. They might have got it wrong, but it just doesn't seem to me they're mislead or stupid in this case, it looks reasonable and logical to me.

[img] [/img]

how were the stocks doing before the EU imposed the big cuts to quotas?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2586349.stm

This is good news:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/07/theresa-may-agrees-to-let-mps-vote-on-brexit-deal-head-off-tory-revolt

I don't care really whether TM had to do it to face off her own rebels, its still good news.

you mean its out of context !

Nope, the link was right above it so the context was there.

which your article states several times they may not be, because no one knows what deal will be negotiated

Indeed, so presumably they think that (probably) gaining 2/3 more product will at least offset whatever is lost in negotiation. AFAIC that's a far more likely explanation than "they're all stupid and mislead.".

Folk are odd. I suggest a way of making £400-450m a week available for NHS and people won't pay ? Taxes are what fund services, there is no money tree.

On Channel Islands I don't really care, not a central / priority Brexit issue.

The figure I recall is 20% of fish caught in British waters are caught by British fishermen. I very much doubt we go out and catch much fish in other EU waters. No one here was blaming the decline in fish stocks on the EU. However we got here imho Britjsh Fishermen will be better off if EU boats have substantially lower or zero quotas. Have a fleet of neely British built boats too, why not ?

@cody as one headline put it, it's a vote on "the deal or no deal" - works for me 🙂

The figure I recall is 20% of fish caught in British waters are caught by British fishermen.

which came from Nigel farage so was obviously a lie for the easily led...

http://theconversation.com/fact-check-is-80-of-uk-fish-given-away-to-the-rest-of-europe-39966

This is a thorough and well-illustrated response which uses the most reliable and up-to-date information available. By demonstrating that the majority of fish in our waters are in fact European rather than British it highlights a key point – even if Britain left the EU we would still need to negotiate quotas which took this into account. There is no guarantee this would ensure any more of the catch.

@cody as one headline put it, it's a vote on "the deal or no deal" - works for me

indeed as MPs dont have any power to change the deal its a great example of #fakecontrol that appeals to the brexies

The lies of Borris and Farage exposed over fisheries in the last couple of pages are the exact reason that they dont want our MPs to scrutinise any deal, because it would expose their duplicity

Would these be the same WTO tariffs that our resident Brexiter was telling us how wonderful they would be?

[I]A string of MPs branded the offer of a final vote a “con” and a “Hobson’s choice”, aware that a refusal to back the final deal struck by May would leave Britain reliant on damaging tariffs set by the World Trade Organisation.[/I]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/07/article-50-bill-may-sees-off-attempt-to-give-mps-veto-over-brexit-deal

jambalaya - Member
Folk are odd. I suggest a way of making £400-450m a week available for NHS and people won't pay ? Taxes are what fund services, there is no money tree.

What gets me about this whole thing is that the government is not ****ing listening to anyone.

What kind of a way to run a country is that?

Ice cream for breakfast, that's what this is.

What gets me about this whole thing is that the government is not **** listening to anyone.

Well they are taking us out of the EU so they listened to the result of the referendum.

I imagine you hurt your economic credentials when you kept pedalling the other x millions a week argument, strange that...

I am using "your" figures Mike. My credibility couldn't be higher as I have been proven right time after time on these issues. Remember you are the one who said Remain would win and that Trump could not possibly be elected.

The pushback here wasn't about the numbers for the NHS but the very concept of paying extra taxes via WTO tarifs to pay the NHS bills.

Sky News paper review shows that we are now seeing the news coverage of the eurozone debt crises that I have been speaking of. Not surprisingly with Trump in the White House the IMF knows the writing is on the wall. No more fake bailouts, only a real solution writing off the majority of the [s]loans[/s] gifts made to Greece. As both left and right wing reciewrs said - the euro cannot survive in its current form. Greece has to go and possibly Italy too. With French and German elections coming up this is going to get very messy.

Diane Abbot should be truely ashamed for skiving the A50 vote. Nick Bowles tweeted this picture of him leaving hospital where he is undergoing Chemotherapy to cast his vote

[img] [/img]

I am using "your" figures Mike. My credibility couldn't be higher as I have been proven right time after time on these issues. Remember you are the one who said Remain would win and that Trump could not possibly be elected.

Mol, in addition to listening to the people - something that you seem to be unhappy with - the givernment has backed down:changed its mind/wobbled/compromksed (you chose) on

The need for a Bill
The White Paper - weak as it was
The final votes in both houses etc

Have you been watching the news? And they will ultimately compromise on the current red lines.

Jambas - mon Amis, what you have been proven is incorrect on many of the core arguments with fisheries merely being the latest one. The whole Brexshit argument was based on five core lies and a false premise of taking control. I am not sure that this is something to be proud of.

Jamba

The pushback here wasn't about the numbers for the NHS but the very concept of paying extra taxes via WTO tarifs to pay the NHS bills.

Explain for a poor engineer whose best friends are electrons and he doesn't even really understand them, what the difference in effect on the man in the street and government coffers (over say a 5 year period) is between WTO tariffs and raising VAT?

I suppose WTO tariffs might suppress exports (exchange rates being equal) but given our level of imports any the unavailability of certain manufacturing technologies, crops, raw materials etc they won't make much of a short to medium term impact in imports.

So you're just proposing to tax the poor I think.

Mol, in addition to listening to the people - something that you seem to be unhappy with

I'm unhappy with people being stitched up in a poorly conceived referendum form, yes. There are many ways to listen to people without doing this.

The government might've wobbled on a few things, but not the important questions such as single market/customs union and so on. We weren't asked about any of that, were we? We weren't asked what we wanted the new Britain to look like at all. That's my huge problem with May&co.

Blimey, if you worried about people answering the basic question of in or out, then debating the nuances of CU v EEA v FTA v WTO is WAYYYY too much to ask

We were asked about what we wanted not how we wanted it. We voted to leave the EU which by defintion means giving up membership of the single market. That is what we voted about.

I'm intrigued by your vision of what a ballot form might have looked like - would have been in A3 paper?

Blimey, if you worried about people answering the basic question of in or out, then debating the nuances of CU v EEA v FTA v WTO is WAYYYY too much to ask

Exactly!

Your gross over-simplification of the question is not helpful at all, tbh.

I'm intrigued by your vision of what a ballot form might have looked like

Perhaps we could've had plan on which to vote? Maybe the question could've been something like 'Should Britain plan to leave the EU?'

You can't suggest that putting a question to people who don't understand the issue is a good idea.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/02/07/eu-faces-crisis-imf-warns-greek-debts-explosive-path/

Why we would vote on that, what a waste of time.

We votes simply in whether we anted to remain as members of the EU. We voted thanks but no thanks.

There is nothing oversimplifying about the differences between the options. As this thread has shown, they the poorly understood. Why put them to the vote. It would be absurdly complex.

Get over the result. We will still have access to the single market in one form or another, by which stage the EU will probably be folding in on itself anyway. The whole thing is a waste of time.

There is nothing oversimplifying about the differences between the options. As this thread has shown, they the poorly understood

So you're saying it's a complex issue, so still have a vote on it but prented it's simple?

That makes no sense.

Actually, it does, if your aim is to push your personal agenda and you need a mandate for it.

Get over the result.

You keep saying this. It's kind of thing I expect to hear from a despot who has grabbed power and then suppresses all opposition. Do you think the Syrians, Turks, Russians, Africans should get over the abuse of power following an election? I think not. If you don't like something work against it.

Look.... are we getting our bendy bananas back, or not?

It's kind of thing I expect to hear from a despot

Not really, it appears to me that he is saying it is pretty pointless going on about the relatives merits of holding a referendum to resolve the issue. That was the method that was chosen, it is clearly a democratic mechanism, and there was a clear result.

That was the method that was chosen, it is clearly a democratic mechanism, and there was a clear result.

The result of the vote was clear, but what would subsequently happen was far from clear, and still isn't. If I asked you to jump off a lip on your bike, what was over the lip would form a key part of your decision process, wouldn't it? You wouldn't be in a position to make a judgement if you didn't know.

So whilst in simple lexical terms it was a simple question, the process of actually governing the country is far from it. According to some, the most complex thing the country has undertaken since the war. So why should it all be handled at the whim of a PM?

There's the result of the ballot, which was very simple; and then result of the decision, which is massively complex. The latter is what we are concerned with now and what is not being handled well imo. It's also the thing that public debate can influence.

Despot - not respecting the result
Democrat - respecting the result
Desperate - pretending you are 2 but behaving like 1

There's a lot of desperation on display

The whim of the PM is a nice tag line but about as accurate as jambas reasons for leaving

Well done!!

Looks like May's desperate toadying up to Trump- giving us a glimpse of what Brexit Britain will look like

and her 'deal or no deal' hard brexit stance are having an effect North of the border

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15076307.Support_for_independence_surges_following_May_s__hard__Brexit_vow/

Little Britain here we come

The whim of the PM is a nice tag line but about as accurate as jambas reasons for leaving

Well done!!

Go on...?

Why are you being evasive about the bananas?

stick your straight bananas its the imperial measurements I cant wait for

So kimbers how does support for independence reconcile with giving up monetary, fiscal and political sovereignty to [s]Frankfurt[/s] Brussels - that is intellectually dishonest and little more than posturing. The Scots are not stupid and woild not fall for that (with a few exceptions of course)

Here you go pall, I swap you devolved power for subjegation to German interests - deal or no deal?

Depends on the consequences of those options, doesn't it THM?

The result of the vote was clear, but what would subsequently happen was far from clear

But we all knew that [b]before[/b] we voted didn't we?

If I asked you to jump off a lip on your bike, what was over the lip would form a key part of your decision process, wouldn't it? You wouldn't be in a position to make a judgement if you didn't know.

I have reconciled my self to us leaving and it IMO is going to be a colossal disaster. Will set the country back years.

[b]Don't tell him your name Kimbers![/b]

Nope, despot means abusing power however you got that power.

Yes and we are having massive abuses right now aren't we?!?

What happened to perspective?

What we are seeing - is desperation in full flow. Rather a sad sight.

But we all knew that before we voted didn't we?

No, I think the way we voted was coloured by our own impressions of what would happen, which were in turn decided by our own sentiments. So if you're pro-EU, you tend to listen to the remainers warning of economic problems; if yo're anti-EU you listen to those telling you Britain will be great again.

But we all took different concepts of post-Brexit Britain into the voting booth, so we were all in essence voting for different things. Leavers were voting to make Britain great again (who wouldn't vote for that?); remainers were voting to keep economic and social ties with neighbours (again, not at all unreasonable).

Do you understand my point? It's lke voting to be rich. Of course we'd tick yes, but the question is how do we actually do that?

I'm with you Pigface. I'm now just going to take it as a bonus if in 5 years not time we're not bartering with chickens, and fighting to the death in the streets, using the splintered bones of the dead as weapons, over the last remaining Aldi bratwurst in the country.

One thing I know for sure. Just like the banking crisis, the people who are ushering in this disaster will walk away once again unscathed from the misery and chaos they are in the process of creating

Well if we voted "blind" then more fool us.

We, the remainders, failed to get our message to resonate with the majority of voters. We lost, fair and square. We did a bad job, the milk has been spilt. You can't go back and do it again, hoping of a better saucer.

The referendum set the direction of travel, it now up to the government to plot the course. That is how our system works.

teamhurtmore - Member
So kimbers how does support for independence reconcile with giving up monetary, fiscal and political sovereignty to Frankfurt Brussels - that is intellectually dishonest and little more than posturing. The Scots are not stupid and woild not fall for that (with a few exceptions of course)

Here you go pall, I swap you devolved power for subjegation to German interests - deal or no deal?

thm as you well know referenda are all about heart not head

Sturgeon has handled it all quite poorly but that doesnt really matter because its looking like a choice between fealty to German interests or fealty to people like Trump

Everytime a millionare brexiter like IDS, Rees-Mogg, Farage etc get up and start frothing on about 'The Will of The People'

another Scott thinks "f-k you ya ignorant sassenachs, ye dunney speak for me"... or something to that effect

Well if we voted "blind" then more fool us.

Indeed.

We did a bad job, the milk has been spilt. You can't go back and do it again, hoping of a better saucer.

That's not what I'm suggesting.

it now up to the government to plot the course

And should the government involve the country or parliament in this, or do it all themselves?

another Scott thinks "f-k you ya ignorant sassenachs, ye dunney speak for me"... or something to that effect

He doesn't speak for me or the other 48% either. Problem is that most of the rest of us don't have a convenient nationalist label to get behind. Not any fairer is it?

May has SAID she wants a Britain that will work for everyone post-Brexit, but let's face it that's ridiculously vague, and it's apparently up to her what she thinks will work for us, and up to her to decide whether or not it is working afterwards.

May does NOT speak for me, not in the least.

How many remainers are on the brexit team?

You didn't vote blind, you voted on the basis of lies and propaganda.

I watched the "debate" from afar, read this thread and noted how the leave campaign resembled propaganda used by fascists of various colours. With some remarkable similarities in the images used (you'll find one earlier in the thread).

The British population has been encourages to hate immigrants in the same way as people have been encouraged to hate Jews, blacks, Catholics, Muslims, different facial features, communists... .

I hate hate and hope I never "get over it" or consider it "crying over spilt milk.

[i]We, the remainders, failed to get our message to resonate with the majority of voters. We lost, fair and square. We did a bad job, the milk has been spilt. You can't go back and do it again, hoping of a better saucer. [/I]

Yep, but that doesn't mean that we've to give the 'winners' an easy time - life doesn't work like that. And after they f it up, we'll ALL be up s creek...

Still no answer from you Brexiters on WTO then eh?

As I said kimbea, the majority of Scots are far too canny to fall for what Sturgeon is now [s]hidng[/s] calling for...

So in molword, do we have a referendum each quarter based on updates in the negotiation process. What exactly do you want - apart from us not leaving the EU?

I voted remain for good reason. Speak for yourself/others Edukator...as you say from afar.

We should move beyond winners and work (1) to reduce uncertainty and (2) accelerate the process towards a solution. Fannying around achieves nothing, just makes matters worse.

hats of to TM, she at least IS getting on with it, even with the myriad of mini diversions along the way. Someone has some balls...

I hate hate

No, you hate leavers & remainers who aren't "remain enough" for you. 'Hate' is just a term of abuse you apply to those people to express your hatred of them. Along with 'racist' and 'stupid'.

All the name calling in this debate came from Remainers. In a close vote it pushed enough people out of the Remain camp to force us out of the EU IMHO.

I didn't have a vote. I didn't miss the irony of the fact that those that had made the most of the mobility the EU has allowed lost their vote in the EU referendum. Cchris has never lost his French voting rights.

Theresa May threads get closed instantly on this forum so I can't say what I think of her. However, don't forget she didn't get voted into her current position. She is a caretaker PM and has no validity IMO. She should call a general election if she wants to lead the government.

Fannying around achieves nothing, just makes matters worse.

You keep saying this. Personally if I'm being driven unwillingly towards a cliff, I'd rather it was slowly so that I might be able to change the driver's mind.

I haven't accused anyone of being stupid. In terms of the ethics of the campaigns I suggest that leave had the monopoly of hate and "racism":

[img] [/img]

Edit; I've used xenophobic to describe the Brexit campaign but that poster is plain racist given the people and conflict it portrays.

It just shows what a crap job we did then doesn't it

And now let's blame others....

didn't have a vote. I didn't miss the irony of the fact that those that had made the most of the mobility the EU has allowed lost their vote in the EU referendum.

Only if they hadn't been registered to vote in the UK in the last 15 years.

The referendum set the direction of travel, it now up to the government to plot the course. That is how our system works.

This is true, but if your a Tory hater or passionate remainer, "every" course the government takes will be wrong !!

Or less than 20% of their lives.

She [May] is a caretaker PM and has no validity IMO. She should call a general election if she wants to lead the government.

As much as I dislike her,

1) In the UK we elect the party*, not the leader, as you well know, and
2) Thanks to the FTPA, she couldn't call an election unless she either instructed her own part to vote "no confidence" in itself, or somehow cajoled the shambolic "opposition" into getting an early election motion passed with >2/3rds of the vote.

So, we're stuck with her.

*well, 25% of us did...

I haven't accused anyone of being stupid. In terms of the ethics of the campaigns I suggest that leave had the monopoly of hate and "racism":

Well go on then. Leavers routinely called Brexiters and Remainers they didn't consider enthusiastic enough 'racist', 'stupid'.

What was the equivalent name that Brexiters employed as a term of abuse? There isn't one is there? *All* of the abuse was one way.

"Unpatriotic", "whingers", "whiners" and many more, outofbreath.

*All* of the abuse was one way.

So in molword, do we have a referendum each quarter based on updates in the negotiation process. What exactly do you want - apart from us not leaving the EU?

Parliamet creates a deal, where we can submit our views to our representatives, then a second referendum on the ultimate deal. Or even parts of it.