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This will wind up the out voters!
[url=
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/762528/team-gb-england-scotland-wales-national-sides-may-be-forced-wear-eu-flag-shirts-brussels ]Sport Shirts...[/url]
Given the disaterous mess they have made with tragic consequences both for migrants themselves drowing in the Med by the 1000's (including the largest single death toll from a boat which departed from Egypt containing mostly Moroccans and Tunisians)
so it's now the EU's fault that people were exploited, loaded on to boats up to the gunwales [b]in a foreign country[/b], because the EU wasn't prepared to send it's army you don't want it to have to stop them!?
or victims of terrorism at the hands of those claiming to be refugees
citation needed, and again, get some perspective. how many people are killed and seriously injured on our roads every year? how many are killed in terrorist attacks ( never mind how many of those perpetrated by people claiming to be refugees )?
it is awful that people are killed by terrorists, of course, but the risk to life is tiny, and the threat exaggerated repeatedly by you. just stop it. it makes you look unhinged.
But being unhinged is a prerequisite of being pro Brexit isn't it?
Everyone I've met is at best deluded, at worse, a lot worse.
A recent tweet . . . .
David Schneider ?@davidschneider Feb 1
Government to release Brexit white paper after #Article50 vote. In other news, restaurants will now only give you a menu after your meal.
🙂
Said menu to contain amusing typos I hear.
And the wine is great value for the age... Thankfully it's all written in English again
did you not read ?everything will be brilliant and our grandkids will thanks us and we will be safe from terrorists.There must be members of the brexit camp on here who can actually explain what is going to happen?
What do you need now details ?
The way jamby uses asylum seekers to always prove the EU is shit - let them in look they cause terrorism or keep them out look they die due to the EU. Being able to reverse the argument[ whilst ignoring the facts and standards relating to reasoned and logical debate], so the EU is always to blame is an intriguing insight into the sort of flexible approach one needs to remain positive.
WHen it goes belly up I think we will see much much more of this - its their fault they wont let us have free trade - but you chose to leave- yes bit its there fault as we wanted etc
because the EU wasn't prepared to send it's army
How would it when one doesn't exist (thankfully!).
Interesting article for debate:
[url] http://www.paulormerod.com/why-the-economics-profession-remains-blind-to-the-benefits-of-brexit/ [/url]
NB: Arrrghhh, forum is completely bust, can't preview etc.
"How would it when one doesn't exist (thankfully!)"
This has always puzzled me. We love NATO, an organisation that binds us to military action regardless of our wishes if a NATO member is attacked. There is also no democratic oversight of the organisation.
Yet, the moment anyone suggests a major political union we elect MPs to and have major influence over at every level, a large number of the NATO lovers run around screaming like deranged lunatics.
"How would it when one doesn't exist (thankfully!)"
i said he didn't want it, not that it existed.
preview works fine for me. 😛
Read the article Dragon.
Interestingly he doesn't say there are benefits to Brexit, only that there might be if we manage to negotiate deals that are better than we already have (statement if bleeding obvious) and that the euro (are we in the euro, I don't recall) was a bad idea - which I agree with but isn't a Brexit question.
Finally he suggests economists don't understand innovation - some truth there, models don't do disruptive things very well. But again that's not a Brexit issue.
Now if he'd actually said Brexit was disruptive and the models can't model it because... then it would have been a better article.
As it was, it was a learned man (unless the British Academy have dropped their standards) writing a frothy newspaper piece that didn't really add much.
Pity, I suspect he might actually have something interesting to say - that wasn't it.
Because the Russians would be on the french coast before an EU sub-committee had even sat to discuss the problem of invasion. Plus for good reason no one trusts the Germans.
But in reality could an EU army even defend its borders, especially post Brexit?
Dragon - Omerod's piece is surprisingly disappointing IMO and frankly odd.
So he has a central narrative that economists are opposed to Brexit in general. Why:
1. They generally see benefits in free trade - true
2. The problem of equilibrium, static models - true
After a little discourse on both issues that do not support the headline, he finally comes to the crux of the issue - THE EURO - which he correctly describes as "one of the most efficient job destruction machines ever created." Yes, we know that...
...but what has that got to do with us? We are not members of the EZ. Irrelevant point.
Our membership of the EU and the Single Market was simply about ensuring that trade with our major trading partners was as easy and as cheap as possible and that we were an attractive place for inward investment. Nothing more.
We have just chose to throw that away for no good reason. That is why economist have 20:20 vision with Brexshit.
Not again...
Not wot?
Because the Russians would be on the french coast before an EU sub-committee had even sat to discuss the problem of invasion. Plus for good reason no one trusts the Germans.But in reality could an EU army even defend its borders, especially post Brexit?
WGAF? we'll never know, will we?
The Russians know that Russian troops in France means that the major Russian cities cease to exist. It's called deterrence. Yes, while France remains within the EU, the EU can defend itself. I don't think Brexit makes any difference to the common military interests of Britain and the EU. Just what difference do you think Brexit makes to the balance of military power, Dragon?
I trust the Germans more than Trump or May.
You are aware that a Russian invasion of western Europe is a wet dream dreamt up by the NATO fantasists? right?
Ukraine is in western Europe. Two parts of it were annexed by the Russians last year.
its clearly in eastern europe though I agree with your previous post
Depends where your mental iron curtain currently lies, junkyard. Where do you put East Germany and Poland? Eastern and Western Europe to me are cold war notions.
Depends where your mental iron curtain currently lies, junkyard
I think its just geography and i am not giving any thought to cold war terminology.
Germany and poland are central for me- which probably does not even exits as a region
teamhurtmore - Member
Not wot?
Agreement. That's twice we've agreed in the last 24 hours.
I feel dirty somehow.
post Brexit British tanks will still train in Germany and German tanks will practice live firing on the Welsh Coast (pedants please correct...I assume the range is still open) just as they both did before the EU...
Ukraine is neither one thing or the other, that is partly why we are where we are today. The population is split almost down the middle and we haven't helped ourselves by encouraging/celebrating the overthrow of a democratically elected government, we don't happen to like. A lesson we still have not learned, illustrated by the fact it took so long to denounce the Turkish coup.
"we haven't helped ourselves by encouraging/celebrating the overthrow of a democratically elected government, we don't happen to like."
This.
The population is split almost down the middle
Bit like the UK then. Just a thought.
jambalaya - Member
Remain's economic project fear has been totally shredded.
While the Brexy project fear foreigners lives on.
Actually it's not shredded and it wasn't fear anyway as you well know. It was and is a fairly reasonable economic prediction. But if you will keep trotting out the same line, who am I to stop you?
At the EU summit in Malta May will update the EU on her meeting with Trump and his goal to have European nations meet their NATO 2/20 spending targets. Germany alone is €30bn per anum below target. EU NATO members are in a very weak position
Sounds like that's not going too well. Poor May. Humiliated by Trump last week after she tried appeasement, potentially humiliated by the EU this week. Not a job I'd want.
Any Leave proponents fancy paying my next gas and electric bills… and all my other rising costs?
Why would they fancy doing that?
Conducting a relatively low intensity war on the periphary of Europe, is a lot different to being able to mount and sustain an armoured operation on ta level not seen since WW2. Russian hardware is ancient, lots of it unreliable and their economy wouldn't be able to sustain a fight like that.
Again, its usually Brexiteers who think that the EU would fall passively, the European Air Group has 2.5k military aircraft alone. Russia has an airforce with utterly woeful servicability rates, they could barely operate three aircraft at any one time from their carrier.
It sounds to me that now's the time to attack and invade Russia. What could possibly go wrong?
Well Ernie, that is about as realistic as Russia reaching Paris.
I like. 😉It sounds to me that now's the time to attack and invade Russia. What could possibly go wrong?
But for clarity, Russia isn't going to start any direct confrontations with the EU/Nato. The cost to them(and us) would be too great, they will go at it asymmetrically. They've done a good job so far with Trump.
This is one the things that Brexshitters fail to understand, they see the EU merely as a financial transaction, and completely ignore that by leaving we are going to go swimming with the sharks...who will use our "free trade with the world" rose tinted spectacles against us for purely political and ideological purposes.
Goodbye the supposedly regained sovereignty.
But I guess these people have to be eaten alive before they can learn its not good for them.
Russia cannot afford to go to war with NATO or the EU.
Obviously.
So breaking both up, by any means, is Putin's priority, don't we think?
Back to Brexit…
Precisely Kelvin. Both Trump and Putin see a divided Europe a better money maker for them.
From the readers' comments in the FT. Sadly funny...
Our brexit /which art uneven/ hallowed be its blame/ our serfdom near / our will be clear/ as a wrexit heaven/give us this day our daily gruel/ and forgive us our nationalism/as we condemn all foreigners among us/ and lead us not unto Brussels/ but deliver us unto the Donald/ for he has the story/ the power and the Tory/ for ever and ever/ We Won! Get over it!... the wrexiters' prayer -- latest update complete with new added muddled thinking ( only the one glass of wine...promise ).
I posted this in Corbyn thread but some good comments on Brexit IMHO
Good piece on Labour from Lisa Nandy, Labour should be a party of patriotism not placards
http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_5895fdf6e4b0a1dcbd029a2a
I recall some posters suggesting Le Pen was no longer proposing France should hold an EU Referendum. I didn't bother to respond but her speech here covered by Channel 4 News is pretty clear - a Referendum within 6 months of her being elected
Genuine question here.
What can the people of Britain pressure the government to change in our favour after Brexit, financial or otherwise?
Should imagine banks/financial institutions, influential industries, wealthy investors etc are brown enveloping their want's to their Tory mates, the peasants being last on the list.
Cancelling Brexit, IQ tests for voting rights, alternate working rights for northerners and any other smart arserie is of course welcome 🙄
What LePen is saying is that she wants to renegotiate the EU deal for France. If it fails she will ask for a referendum
wonder if I'd be better off asking Le Pen for a Yorkshire referendum.
At the EU summit in Malta May will update the EU on her meeting with Trump and his goal to have European nations meet their NATO 2/20 spending targets. Germany alone is €30bn per anum below target. EU NATO members are in a very weak position
Whilst we have two entire carriers to fill with planes. Three delivered so far.
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At the EU summit in Malta May will update the EU on her meeting with Trump and his
Bonus points to whoever shouts "say it again like you mean it" or perhaps they will all just laugh.
What can the people of Britain pressure the government to change in our favour after Brexit, financial or otherwise?
The holes that Brexit opened up in our economy/society.
1) Investment in skills
2) Investment in industry
3) And the usual investment in infrastructure
You could easily meet all three in the same projects.
Whilst we have two entire carriers to fill with planes. Three delivered so far.
Well, in our defence, the same country whinging about European NATO contributions is the one responsible for our aircraftless carriers
Mol, you still seem to be labouring under the idea that Brexshitt had something to do with economics.....
I thought our carriers were going to be used as a mini-cab service for US aircraft.
You could easily meet all three in the same projects.
War?
"we haven't helped ourselves by encouraging/celebrating the overthrow of a democratically elected government, we don't happen to like."This.
Hitler was democratically elected, as it has to be remembered is Putin.
Does that mean that we should be nice and just accept them? That there is never a concern that needs to be addressed?
Well, in our defence, the same country whinging about European NATO contributions is the one responsible for our aircraftless carriers
No, I'm pretty sure that's entirely our honour. We sold them our upgraded Harriers in a bulk deal, ironically to tide them over till the F35B was delivered.
Don't the French have a few aircraft compatible with our carrier? Or am I recalling that incorrectly?
Jambyaayr I think that was me suggesting that, but Le-Pen has doubled down on this now so I was wrong.
Meanwhile how does this fit with the "post brexit project fear"?
No, I'm pretty sure that's entirely our honour. We sold them our upgraded Harriers in a bulk deal, ironically to tide them over till the F35B was delivered.
We actually got rid of the good harriers (the SHar2) for no good reason at all.
But it's still the Seppos' fault that the F35 doesn't work.
Some more details of the referendum voting, including by ward (spreadsheet link at bottom of page) if anyone is interested.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38762034 ]Local voting figures shed new light on EU referendum[/url]
Have we done Channel Islands yet. Currently not part of UK or the EU yet they are within the common travel area and the customs union. They wish to retain their status quo which is free movement of goods but not people, and not capital.
[url= https://blog.gov.je/2016/09/29/planning-for-the-best-possible-future-for-jersey-after-brexit/ ]States of Jersey blog[/url]
[url=manager/news/how-are-the-channel-islands-dealing-with-brexit/a937107]citywire [/url]
How about Nigel, a true European . 😆
Hitler was democratically elected, as it has to be remembered is Putin.
Hilter had already banned the communist party by the time he perhaps got elected. The 1933 election was held after the Nazis had seized power and a few days aftrer the orchestrated Reichstag fire - Googel it. As for Putin, the serious opposition was all in jail or dead before the last couple of elections.
If those are your examples of democratic examples we don't have the same idea of democracy.
Apparently he used the Reichstag fire to persuade Hindenberg to arrest KPD members and "suppress" the communist votes. There were still votes cast for them in the election, though not as many as might have been.
After the election all other parties were dissolved.
Mean while those of us in the Freeeeee Yorkshire party (regionally know as the How Much! Party) are the only people with a sensible agument for anything at all. We certainly are not planning to send the forces of penny pinching to invade Lancashire or any other of the lesser counties in the misguided UK.
I say again Free Yorkshire (an it better be cheap).
Crikey you lot are going into overdrive regarding some bogeymen. 😆
There will be NO war with Iran, Russia, EU, USA, China, North Korea or Taiwan ... Will never happen. Posturing, yes, just to scare the shite out of those fake news people or simply to sell more newspapers or reporters trying to justify their salaries.
The only war you have is the brainwashed fake news lot feeding the newspaper reporters trolls. The more the news trolls the population, the more dramatic they become, the more justification for their existence. More money.
Who the hell on this earth is so stupid to want to invade EU? Nobody wants to feed the EU lot if that makes sense. They have no natural resources or even if they have they are in limited ways, they are more trouble to have ... no peace of mind even for the potential invader especially the constant hand bags throwing. I mean are those EU people really productive? Some maybe from the former Eastern block nations. Generally most of the wealthy EU states are just feeding on the poor former Eastern block labour by pretending to help them. Hardly worthwhile to invade ...
Like my Taiwanese friend once said ... If China surrender to Taiwan, Taiwan would instantly disappear from this world. No bullet needed at all.
The EU lot is more of a burden then benefits. Russia with their vast land would have much more freedom then the EU lot who needs to rub shoulders to shoulders just to earn a living so tight ... Russia might be less wealthy but freedom is not defined by wealth is it?
😆
If those are your examples of democratic examples we don't have the same idea of democracy.
and what percentage of the UK population voted for the Tories? What percentage voted for Trump.
both won their elections.
And the Nazi's were the largest party after the 1932 elections. They just used there mandate well.
If those are your examples of democratic examples we don't have the same idea of democracy.
I think what he's saying is that simply having an election doesn't mean good governance and it certainly doesn't make the outcome the right one.
Weird pro Putin line from our favourite STW forum bot. Cross infected by a Russian hacker?
What can the people of Britain pressure the government to change in our favour after Brexit, financial or otherwise?
The holes that Brexit opened up in our economy/society.1) Investment in skills
2) Investment in industry
3) And the usual investment in infrastructureYou could easily meet all three in the same projects.
People voted for Brexit partly because of those holes.
Agreed all of that list should be part of our post Brexit world and wouod actually nitbhave been possible within the EU as all the investment wouod have been blocked by state aid rules and of course the jobs/apprenticeships would have had to have been offered to any EU citizen.
@chestercopperpot Educational/ IQ test for voting ... how about Mensa level or postgraduate degrees only 😉 ? Democracy isn't dead for you eh ?
What the educational divide in the Brexit vote shows is that better educated people know their jobs and salaries are less at risk from low skilled immigrants than do those of lower educational achievement in manual or low skilled work. Obvious but ignored by those snobs who describe those who disagree with them as "thick"
Agreed all of that list should be part of our post Brexit world and wouod actually nitbhave been possible within the EU as all the investment wouod have been blocked by state aid rules and of course the jobs/apprenticeships would have had to have been offered to any EU citizen.
None of that says state aid does it? Point is the EU is blamed for the failings of successive governments.
What the educational divide in the Brexit vote shows is that better educated people know their jobs and salaries are less at risk from low skilled immigrants than do those of lower educational achievement in manual or low skilled work. Obvious but ignored by those snobs who describe those who disagree with them as "thick"
How does it explain the low unemployment and the high leave votes from places with incredibly low immigration?
Agreed it doesn't say so explicitly but you soon get there imo. As Gordon Brown said British Jobs for British Workers
How does it explain the low unemployment and the high leave votes from places with incredibly low immigration?
Because;
They have seen what has happened to the jobs of others in areas where there has been higher immigration
They have had their livelihoods negatively impacted by the EU, eg fishing
They feel the EU has favored London/Banking
As the report showed there where some high Leave votes in parts of London and from some Asian communities.
Going ot be very hard for the next government to take all this on the chin isn't it without the handy EU to blame - or judging by the RW [s]bile[/s] press the next 20 years will be the fault of the EU.
2020 election will be fought on the "vision for the future", I am sure the EU will be blamed for holding us back
I am sure the EU will be blamed for holding us back
Why let a good lie go... you have used it long enough, I'm sure we can balme them for the drop in the pound and the 350 million not appearing.
jambalaya - Member
2020 election will be fought on the "vision for the future", I am sure the EU will be blamed for holding us back
The Brexies decided that was how they would do the campaign for back in 1807.
Got to have someone to blame. Couldn't be their own failings.
They have seen what has happened to the jobs of others in areas where there has been higher immigration
They have had their livelihoods negatively impacted by the EU, eg fishing
They feel the EU has favored London/Banking
If people believe this then "thick" would seem a wholly appropriate adjective - fishing is one of the great bogeymen stories that relies on a total ignorance of the previous decimation of fishing stocks. The industry was dying because of itself not the EU. The other two are simply laughable as was the Brexshit case. But there we go..,,,
Agreed all of that list should be part of our post Brexit world and wouod actually nitbhave been possible within the EU as all the investment wouod have been blocked by state aid rules
Which rules, specifically?
Obvious but ignored by those snobs who describe those who disagree with them as "thick"
While not polite to call someone thick we have to accept that there are varying levels of intelligence and knowledge across the country.
A 5 minute discussion with my own sister reveals how little understanding someone can have of politics/EU etc,. Why would I ask my sister to help me decide what to do on the EU anymore than someone should ask me what to do about a chemistry problem (I wouldn't have a clue). Yet that is exactly what we did.
Ah the old fishing myth again: you do realise it is the British Government alone who dish out the quotas for the waters surrounding the UK? If you want to criticise anyone, criticise the UK government. It seems a general pattern that people are blaming the EU for problems caused by our own government.
Some fish facts
[url= https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-pinching-our-fish/ ]fullfact[/url]
If people believe this then "thick" would seem a wholly appropriate adjective - fishing is one of the great bogeymen stories that relies on a total ignorance of the previous decimation of fishing stocks. The industry was dying because of itself not the EU.
This hurts but... 8)
In the 70's, fishermen on the n/e coast of Scotland caught lots of fish and everybody was happy. But the fishermen wanted more money so started to double up crews; boat come in and unloads/new crew standing by the dock/boat out same afternoon. Soon fishermen were making so much money that they bought huge multi-million pound boats capable of fishing over the continental shelf and they went as far as Rockall, double netting all the way. Banks loaned them the money then suddenly yields went down because there were no fish left. Banks called in their loans and forced the fishermen to accept the scrappage scheme (up to a million pounds)that the government rather generously offered.
The sea off the coast of Scotland was/is a desert and it is ENTIRELY down to the greed of the captains. That and that only is why there are quotas of catch and days.
Well put ducks but much easier to blame the EU than to take responsibility
From the fullfact link:
"Some academic research has suggested that the UK’s fishing quotas allow fishermen based here to catch around 30% of fish in UK waters."
Which means oob? It's the middle of a long passage with way more detail so what you saying with the quote?