[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Brexit will benefit me I suspect - given I'm in an industry that relies on white collar immigrants and should survive Brexit just fine I expect to see inflationary effects raising salaries round here.

I don't think it's good for my children as it cuts down on their life opportunities - more difficult to work in Europe (not impossible but more difficult), less economic activity do fewer jobs and more political / international unrest.

By George, Starmer gets it

Bloody Labour Party !!!! 😉

Now then in to the next stage.

Trump is a bit easy to wind up. So if we all get together and start winding him up (I don't know, petions saying he's not a nice man that sort of thing) it drives a wedge between the UK and US and turns us back towards Europe.

Most folk wouldn't care but Trump does come across as the sort of primadonna who does.

Like THM says the negotiations start now so let's tilt the pitch. 😉

trouble is the negotiations do not start now. they don't start with th rest of the EU until we trigger article 50 and no trade deals with the rest of the world can start until we have left the EU unless we get permission from the EU - as all EU states have a legal obligation not to make unilateral agreements and we are still an EU state at the moment

mefty unfortunately Starmer does not get it at all and he is wrong. the referendum did not put any obligation on parliament and especially not on the labour party - thats just a bunch of weasel words he is using to try to justify the stupid position labour are in.

"mefty unfortunately Starmer does not get it at all and he is wrong. the referendum did not put any obligation on parliament and especially not on the labour party"

+1

I think what really wound people up about the whinging Brexies, is there was a huge vote in which the UK as a whole said in balance we're a little bit more out than in.

If the will of the people had been reflected then a deal that was a little bit more out than in might have been acceptable - but oh no say the whingers, we have to leave everything including things that weren't EU in the first place.

Well in that case, I am going to be equally unreasonable. And while I'm often a really nice guy, I have patience, a long memory and I'm creative in how I get my own back.

no trade deals with the rest of the world can start until we have left the EU unless we get permission from the EU

What they gonna do? Kick us out?

Academic since trade deals aren't essential and you really want to agree one you can just call your negotiations something else (pre-negotiation talks?) and rubber stamp them on the day of leaving.

mefty unfortunately Starmer does not get it at all and he is wrong

The fact you disagree with it is a pretty sure sign he got it right.

Mefty - its a position with no logical rationale thats why its wrong.

It's about having a say/more control over our future

Well in that case, I am going to be equally unreasonable

Outofbreath - pissing off the EU even more at this point would be really useful wouldn't it? Plus I am sure there will be sanctions available

pissing off the EU even more at this point would be really useful wouldn't it?

I don't think it matters.

They have to strike the balance between making this as painful as they can for us whilst not damaging their own interests too much.

How much they like us is irrelevant, if they do us a favour then other nations will think it's a good wheeze and leave.

Mefty - its a position with no logical rationale thats why its wrong.

There is a difference between no logic and logic you don't agree with, I don't hold out any hope that you will understand that. It's just good to be reminded why I didn't bother renewing my sub.

I'd say May's fawning over Trump, holding his wee hand, pimping out the Queen etc is doing a pretty good job of showing other nations what fate awaits them if they leave.

The more desperate we look, maybe the more they'll pity us and offer a good deal?

Also trump's next policy pledge is his trade war with China, as well as dividing on their south China sea plans, will we back him then as well , do we need trade with China more, I suspect that our foreign policy will be dictated entirely by who we can get a Daily Mail friendly trade deal with.

The fact you disagree with it is a pretty sure sign he got it right.

😀

mefty - go on then - explain the logic behind it in a rational way that shows its just not weasel words to try to justify the odd stance the labour party are taking on this

Morgan v Gove v Soubry!!!

Soubry coming a clear third so far!

It's about having a say/more control over our future

In exchange for less say/control in our biggest single market.

excuse me slowoldman, i was having a bit of fun there, only semi-serious and not in the sense you took it 😉

mefty - go on then - explain the logic behind it in a rational way that shows its just not weasel words to try to justify the odd stance the labour party are taking on this

Futility
BY WILFRED OWEN
Move him into the sun—
Gently its touch awoke him once,
At home, whispering of fields half-sown.
Always it woke him, even in France,
Until this morning and this snow.
If anything might rouse him now
The kind old sun will know.

Think how it wakes the seeds—
Woke once the clays of a cold star.
Are limbs, so dear-achieved, are sides
Full-nerved, still warm, too hard to stir?
Was it for this the clay grew tall?
—O what made fatuous sunbeams toil
To break earth's sleep at all?

Is that about Brexy voters Mefty?

Plenty of them shuffling off their mortal coils soon.

[quote=tjagain ]mefty - go on then - explain the logic behind it in a rational way that shows its just not weasel words to try to justify the odd stance the labour party are taking on this

Is it odd though? Are they not following the opinion polls and what they perceive to be the nations wishes?

There was once a mandate a politician stood on that said "no tuition fees" - ouch Clegg takes one in the bollix

In other news a Professor and one of Trump's advisors correctly points out what we all know that the euro creates an artificially low currency for Germany and the ECB manages it for their benefit. Merkel denies it of course. Tusk has gone full Armageddon and said Trump is a threat to the EU as mixh as Russia or China. Clear attempt at EU project fear - you must tow the line my servants

There was once a mandate a politician stood on that said "no tuition fees" - ouch Clegg takes one in the bollix

And the LibDems were destroyed at the next general election.
Isn't democracy great.
Now, let's see if the exit deal we get is anything like those suggested during the campaign, and then vote on it.

Tusk has gone full Armageddon and said Trump is a threat to the EU as mixh as Russia or China. Clear attempt at EU project fear - you must tow the line my servants

Have you not being paying attention? Trump and the man who is most likely to be the next USA embasador to the EU have been talking this up all by themselves. We can ignore it all as bluster if we want, but the last week suggests that it might be wise to listen.

Yes, Jambas, but follow the logic there. If correct and the Germans have created a monster that creates unsustainable surpluses, then they need to understand that these surpluses have to be recycled otherwise no one will be left to feed the monster that they created.

They are as guilty as the PIIGS for the demise of the EZ - in fact probably more, because they have the audacity to charge the PIIGS with addressing unilateraly, when they are equally to blame.

TJ mefty was correct, Stamer gets it.

It's politics and nothing else, and the reason (as I've said previously on this post) that May is pushing it as she is, 'cos she's a politician and had now the top job, and intends to keep it irrelevant of the outcome.

Isn't democracy great.

only if the result goes your way, apparently

Out of adversity....So Stamer, articulate, a lawyer, not associated with he-who-was-very-successful-but-cannot-be named....is this a new leader in the making?

Whoa we have a new entry in the most deluded brexie in the commons league table

the 23 June last year will be remembered as a great day in history. It is comparable with Agincourt and Waterloo,
All MPs are doing is implementing the glorious decision taken by the public in the referendum

And with that rees- mogg flies to the top position

What can IDS pull out of the bag to regain his place?

The only In Deep Shit quotes I have seen have been distressing moderate.
He's up to something.

And with that rees- mogg flies to the top position
What can IDS pull out of the bag to regain his place?

Starmer is saying what he thinks people want to hear - not what he thinks is right and it has no logic behind it bar electoral calculation.

I* understand why he has adopted this position but to claim its logical in any sense is just wrong. It doesn't even make sense FFS

Lets see then

"This is obviously a difficult decision," he said.

A good start - tick

"I wish the result had gone the other way. I campaigned passionately for that.

Good middle - tick

But as democrats our party has to accept that result and it follows that the prime minister should not be blocked from starting the Article 50 negotiations."

Logical finish and makes sense - tick.

Yep, I think that is what people might well want to hear. Democracy at work - tick

Will it help their election chances - who knows? But better than relying on the old bloke who seems to have gone awol.

only if the result goes your way, apparently

🙂

Been watching the commons all day

My hatred for the Tories cannot be expressed strongly enough. Smug, elitist arseholes.

We need a modern day guy fawkes more than ever 😐

an attempted murderer?

Murderer - possibly. Like that Brexy in Leeds.

Oh sorry, attempted murder. Like that Brexy that got done last week - or was he just a fantastist

David Lammy currently telling it like it is. Best I've heard all day.

[quote=igm ]Murderer - possibly. Like that Brexy in Leeds.
Oh sorry, attempted murder. Like that Brexy that got done last week - or was he just a fantastist

It was a tongue in cheek comment that our crop of politicians are crap!

Agreed and understood Bob.

I was merely pointing out to all and sundry that the Brexies have already resorted to murder.
Although I am not condoning the "well they started it" defence.

igm - perspective please

My hatred for the Tories cannot be expressed strongly enough. Smug, elitist arseholes.

Yep does make you sorta wonder why 'Will of the people' gave them carte Blanche to do whatever they want,seems a trifle naive.

Brexit the gift that keeps on giving.

So lots of contribuitions, all (most) very interesting. But so what? The debates took place last year. Nothing new in terms of the argument. Tomorrow the vote will be passed and we will carry on. Apart from confirming correct legal process, has anything changed? I doubt it.

Still at least it was only 2 days and the timetable for getting on with things still looks achievable. Give the range of options expressed, not sure where the idea that Parliament would deliver a consensus came from??

[I]Yep does make you sorta wonder why 'Will of the people' gave them carte Blanche to do whatever they want,seems a trifle naive.[/I]

+1

And she's unelected too, so you really couldn't make it up 🙂

THM - fair enough on perspective, but where was I inaccurate? And did one well known Brexy gloat that Brexit was won without a shot being fired a few short days after Jo Cox was murdered? And today Cash talking about a "peaceful revolution".
These people have no shame and I see no reason to let them off the hook for the things they incited.

IMHO Don't think there's gonna be any meat on this puppy until the negotiation starts and the first non's start coming out. All this foreplays a bit boring tbh.

IMO you are going too far to say that Brexies resorted to murder. Sorry but that's a poor show IMO and not fitting given the character of the victim. But you are entitled to your view of course!

Boring possibly occasionally, but staggeringly polite and charming. Some very eloquent and thoughtful contributions on both sides but as one bloke just said - all a bit late.

Impressed by Wes Streeting from Ilford North - shame that Gove interrupted with more lies, but knocked back by young Wes with aplomb. Bravo.

THM - did you write what you meant there or am I misunderstanding it?

not fitting given the character of the victim

Misunderstanding, sorry. Would Jo Cox have used the words you did? That was my point. No victim blaming at all.

No she probably wouldn't.

Probably a better person than me.

(Didn't think you were victim blaming, but I did want to give you the opportunity to be absolutely clear in your meaning)

dudeofdoom - Member
IMHO Don't think there's gonna be any meat on this puppy until the negotiation starts and the first non's start coming out. All this foreplays a bit boring tbh.

Yes, I just think you went too far with that one comment. nothing more. Forget it.

IMO you are going too far to say that Brexies resorted to murder.

So he wasn't a brexy, or he didn't murder her... or murder wasn't his last resort? I'm not quite sure what else I can draw from your words here, THM.

You have to face facts that there are some pretty unsavoury characters on the Brexit side of the argument.

And when I can be bothered, I'll wade through some of the earlier pages of this thread to test your assertion that your views haven't changed.

You have to face facts that there are some pretty unsavoury characters on the Brexit side of the argument

Not sure of the relevance of that though?

There are zokes true, but that is different from saying that Brexies have already resorted to murder.

Feel free to read every page, you won't find what you are hoping for.

The only "change" was that I argued that the whole question was pointless for the very simple reason that the thing we would be voting for would not/could not exist in the future by design. The whole thing was premature. I still believe that, The whole thing has been a waste of time and a mistake. A MASSIVE one.

First Europe has to decide what it is going to be. Only at that point, should we have voted.

That aside, I have never argued to leave despite my reservations about the €. Why because we were not part of that folly. I believed that Dave pulled off a very good deal. More fool those who condemned him at the time.

Faisal Islam earlier "as beaming eurosceptics looked on sensing total victory" 🙂

Numerous speakers tonight stating the obvious that had the EU shown flexibility of freedom of movement the UK would most likely not be leaving the EU. It's inability to shift in responce to Europe wide concerns has lead it to this point.

For me the outstanding moment has been the SNP holding up it's 650 page book of fiction as a example of the sort of paper the Government should provide. A document which did not even answer what money people would use, a document which based the country's finances on an oil price of $110 a barrel and topically did not address how any future EU membership would look and it's timing.

Just an aside. If the 23 June last year "will be remembered as a great day in history, comparable with Agincourt and Waterloo", the two years after A50 will probably be akin the the Somme.

jambalaya - Member
Faisal Islam earlier "as beaming eurosceptics looked on sensing total victory"

And that's why Brexies are hated. In one easy quote Jamba.

Sad really.

igm you've brought on yourselves with all the abuse us Leavers have had to put up with both dyring the campaign and on this thread. That plus the repeated attempts since to derail democracy.

igm you've brought on yourselves with all the abuse us Leavers have had to put up with both dyring the campaign and on this thread.

irony alert...
enimies of the people
[img] [/img]
Lies, lies, lies, lies and BoJo?
If people are going to make lots of claims then run away from them the day after the result your going to have to suck it up princess. You actually went from making cast iron claims to the "not in a position to make policy statements" to "well our lie worked didn't they"

That plus the repeated attempts since to derail democracy.

Numerous speakers tonight stating the obvious that had the EU shown flexibility of freedom of movement the UK would most likely not be leaving the EU. It's inability to shift in responce to Europe wide concerns has lead it to this point.

It has nothing to do with it. Its only ever been about getting rid of the ECJ, and the regulations that create a level playing field within the single market, and turning the UK into a low tax low regulation economy.

This of course this wouldn't sit at all well with the population when they find out the employment rights are going to curtailed, or funding to public services will be cut, so out comes the immigration card.

Quite how you are going to reconcile an economy that will need freedom of movement, with restrictive immigration will be part of brexits undoing. See Australia for details.

Ah once we are past the point of no return

We WILL return. We have to do some house cleaning first.

Wonder if Scotland will go for Independance now , and with election in Northen Ireland , would be interesting if Sin Fen get majority .

Brexit might be remembered for breaking up the UK .

There are zokes true, but that is different from saying that Brexies have already resorted to murder.

Well... he is a brexy, and he did murder her for her political views, which I'm assuming in his mind was an action to resort to, rather than his first point of debate. I'll accept that there are serious questions about his mental sanity, but then the same probably applies to most foaming brexiteers.

jambalaya - Member
igm you've brought on yourselves with all the abuse us Leavers have had to put up with both dyring the campaign and on this thread. That plus the repeated attempts since to derail democracy.

I started off thinking that Brexies were misguided but otherwise ok.
But months of xenophobia and abuse (go back through the front pages of the Mail, Express, Sun, Telegraph) from Brexies, (while the remain leaning press were partisan but not abusive) changed that. The Brexy campaign was based on fear and hatred throughout.

The death threats (how many Brexies have the police had to speak to now? And some have ended up in court) and the killing changed that. I remember lots of rumours about death threats against Brexies but I don't remember anything more than rumours - I may be wrong on that.

Some Brexies (Farage for example) did not deserve abuse, he deserved to be in court on racist incitement charges. That poster with its echos of a Nazi propaganda poster was a disgrace - of course I'm sure it was just a coincidence.

And then the vote happened.

And the Brexies tried to abandon the democratic process (not all you did try and suggest just doing a parliamentary vote - but you were a minority from what I saw).

Brexies instantly in the press, in comments columns and in here started name calling - anything from moaners to traitors - against anyone (about half those who voted in reality) who disagreed with them.
And when campaigners went to court to insist the democratic process was upheld, the Brexy press abused them, abused the judges and abused anyone who supported democracy.

I have tried throughout this thread to be factual. And where there are no facts to give honest and reasonably objective opinions. I won't have managed every time.
Like I say I started off disagreeing, but the Brexies have been teaching me to hate - I am trying to resist.

But let me end on this thought. You may wish to reflect on it.

They say you can tell the character of a man by the company he keeps. Brexies may not, to a man and woman, been racists, xenophobes and thugs, but they certainly kept company with racists, xenophobes and thugs.

And that is not abuse. That is a simple factual observation.

+1 igm, with one addition:

For all the squealing brexies have made when being accused of xenophobia, it's worthwhile citing the dictionary definition of the word here:
[url= http://www.dictionary.com/browse/xenophobia ]
1) fear or hatred of foreigners, people from different cultures, or strangers:
2) fear or dislike of the customs, dress, etc., of people who are culturally different from oneself[/url]

I think it's pretty clear that most brexies have at the very least a dislike to some level of "the customs, dress, etc., of people who are culturally different from oneself".

I'm afraid if the cap fits...

"would be interesting if Sin Fen get majority"

...because they are so tolerant and understanding of people with different backgrounds.

Personally had threats from an EDL muppet on Facebook over the referendum, so that confirmed everything I suspected about many Brexiters.

no because Sin Fen would probably want to join Ireland .

Many, some, a few, a tiny percentage?

All Brexshiteers are members of the EDL

Killing was a policy of the Brexshit campaign

Wow. You learn something every day...

Us Yorkists are still waiting for our turn. Hope the level of debate will be more informed than I have witnessed so far.
Not once in the whole of these grumpy pages has one of you acknowledged the superiority of those born of the county of York. A UK/EU pox on you all.

Free Yorkshire! An it better be cheap.

IGM plus 2.

Like I say I started off disagreeing, but the Brexies have been teaching me to hate - I am trying to resist.

Step father, sister and brother-in-law all brexopaths. I couldn't bring myself to visit them last Christmas .

I continue to disagree with Brexshiteers but the recent behaviour of (a small but vocal minority of) leavers following the result makes me question and disagree with them too

"Our" behaviour is (becoming) quite unbecoming. The gutter is not a pleasant place to have a debate

Thank goodness the HoC showed us a more elevated example yesterday

THM - my turn to suggest perspective to you I think

All Brexshiteers are members of the EDL
Killing was a policy of the Brexshit campaign

Did anyone actually say this?
I have no knowledge of whether killing was a Brexy policy - my suspicion is that it wasn't.
Incitement was. And that led to one killing and many death threats - threats the police took seriously.
Are all Brexies EDL members? Doubt it. In fact I am 99.9999% certain that aren't all EDL.
But i am allowed to judge them by the company they keep and the Brexy campaign was walking shoulder to shoulder with EDL beliefs.

Wow. You learn something every day...

Indeed you do. For instance, I thought you, THM, could read and interpret information objectively, rather than flying off the handlebar deliberately misinterpreting text in some fit of childish hyperbole. Apparently not...

the Brexies have already resorted to murder.

QED

Ok so now its watered down to a policy of inciting killing. FFS guys, perspective

i hope you didnt take too long composing that zokes. i wasted three seconds reading it, that was bad enough

the Brexies have already resorted to murder.

QED

One brexy has. Do you dispute this? #alternativefacts

Ok so now its watered down to a policy of inciting killing. FFS guys, perspective

Certainly inciting hatred. At least one found enough hatred to commit murder.

i hope you didnt take too long composing that zokes. i wasted three seconds reading it, that was bad enough

Grow up.

Say what you will but the Remainers here are responsible for 99% of the abuse and name calling. As Dan Jarvis and MP after MP said being concerned about immigration does not make you a racist of a xenophobe (posh name calling), as we've said many times the name calling worked in Leave's favour just as the bus moaning kept the focus on Leave's strong issues of EU budget and wastage.

Landslide victory tonight and White Paper tomorrow. Zero amendments passed.

i wasted three seconds reading it

There is a very simple solution for that

"Say what you will but the Remainers here are responsible for 99% of the abuse and name calling."

This.

...and it's counter productive. You can shut down an argument by calling someone a racist, but you can't win it.

Given the tightness of the vote I reckon with fact and reason instead of name calling remain would have won.

Mind you, did that many remainers really want to win? The MPs were mostly remainers now they're queuing up to vote for it.

On the other side I'm pretty sure Boris and Give didn't want to win.

being concerned about immigration does not make you a racist of a xenophobe

That all depends why you are concerned and what it is based on.

If you are concerned about immigration because you don't want more foreigners in "your" country then that is racist. If you are concerned that the countries population is too high then you would also be for controlling the population via other means (number of children permitted etc,.) but don't hear that mentioned much?

As Dan Jarvis and MP after MP said being concerned about immigration does not make you a racist of a xenophobe

Doesn't matter who or how many said it if they're all incorrect.

1) Why are people concerned about immigration?
2) Do any, some, or all of those reasons fall under either of the two definitions given under the dictionary entry above for the word xenophobe?

If the answer to (2) is yes, then those are xenophobic reasons. Someone using xenophobic reasons to justify their position is, by definition, a xenophobe. If they discriminate, or wish to discriminate, based upon those xenophobic reasons, then those actions may in some circumstances be considered racist.

the Remainers here are responsible for 99% of the abuse and name calling

There is a point where even the most reasoned individual cannot deal with an incessant barrage of complete untruths and wilful disinformation posted to deliberately de-rail a debate. There is also a point where if someone continually posts demonstrable falsehoods then they and their argument become one and the same, and equally open to criticism or rebuke. As you crossed that boundary a long time ago, you shouldn't be surprised by what follows.