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b r there is a world of difference betwen a student exchange programme costing £20m and the leviathon the EU has become swallowing a net £8.5/£10bn/....
We are always hearing about how the PM makes £150k pa but Junker is on £400k and pays just 10% tax plus a whopping pension and a golden parachute of £500k when he leaves 😯 That's just one cushy EU job, there are 10's of thousands
Jambas - what percent of national income goes on our net (or even gross) contribution?
Some 'cushy UK jobs' [i](old 2010 data) [/i]:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/may/31/senior-civil-servants-salaries-data
Of course, there will need to be more, post Leaving the EU.
there are 10's of thousands
An ACTUAL FACT.
For real!
Fantastic.
More of this please.
Now, when we no longer have accessed to these 30k+ EU civil servants, how many more UK civil servants will we need, and will that result in a greater or lower cost to the UK tax payer?
Well stick smiley on your next failed attempt at humour, THM. Then we won't have insults running through our head when we read your trashy posts(edit: as opposed to your serious, perceptive ones because there's no way of telling the difference).
Humour is far from obvious when you state you're against Brexit then spend your time producing posts to support it, just like TM does in real life.
This forum is complicated enough without you contradicting yourself in the name of humour.
Ooh Jamba a bit political there.
Of course £8.5bn is just 10% of the annual budget deficit Labour left us with in 2015
Particularly as Labour left office in 2010.
Anyway you failed the exam question as (thoughtful though your answer was) you only answered the first half.
I assume that is because you know the cost of the EU trade deal, but not the value.
What does it increase our tax take by?
I'll allow ridiculous answers but I will mark you accordingly.
"Particularly as Labour left office in 2010."
🙂
Dont behave like an ar$e. I have been a consistent opponent of Brexshit. What I have defended recently is the decision to respect the result. That's how it works unless you are a whiney bad loser. Sorry if that simple distinction is too challenging for you to get your head round. Yes, TM has behaved is a similar fashion albeit she was a less vocal remainer than me. Ditto Jezza, but in that case a very weak remainer.
Admittedly "irritant" was not the smartest choice of word. I was taking the piss given that the overall size of the EU contribution is <1% of GDP so costs associated with Erasmus are nothing of substance. In fact, as I have said many times, Erasmus is something to support strongly.
when you state you're against Brexit then spend your time producing posts to support it
To be fair, I knew it was sarcasm, and I also understand his position because I've been reading the thread for ages and because he's made it explicitly clear a few times.
He's saying he'd rather not have Brexit, but given that we don't appear to have a choice, better get it done to avoid any uncertainty for businesses. A bit like ripping a plaster off.
A bit like ripping a plaster off.
I'm not sure the stinging sensation is going to wear off though.
Hi mods, THM has decided to make me his latest target and we all know how that ended when his target was TJ, so I'm out of this thread for a self-imposed three-day break as it's turning unpleasant.
How were we supposed to know THM was as he stated himself state himself "taking the piss" - with no smiley. He can be extremely provocative, a troll even, but here we were supposed to reach the conclusion he was being humourous - how?
I'm making no threats, he is:
So wind it in, unless you are just trying to lose the "reformed" tag.
He is regularly derogatory and insulting towards those that hold alternative views:
That's how it works unless you are a whiney bad loser
Sorry if that simple distinction is too challenging for you to get your head round.
Then he agrees I'm right in my observations comparing his position to TM even though a few posts above he found it insulting.
Yes, TM has behaved is a similar fashion albeit she was a less vocal remainer than me.
And then I have.
Dont behave like an ar$e.
When it all started with him posting:
Erasmus is merely an irritant
But didn't you hear? The great British public voted with one voice to leave Erasmus. At least, they might have done, we'll have to wait to see what mayhem decides...
Edukator - I was tempetd to say that you are flattering yourself, but that would be churlish! 😉 see what I did there.
But actually, sorry, I overreacted earlier. Had a really crap afternoon. The intention behind my post was easy to miss, due to a weak choice of term (irritant), fair does, easy to misinterpret, even in a manner that goes too far. Apologies for my part.
Thank you mol - an interesting analogy!
Bear in mind that Edukator's not British there might be some cultural traditions that don't quite come across in text form.
Damn your attention to detail @igm 🙂
As for the second part ask an Economist and he'll give you 2 or 3 different answers, it's all theoretical what-iffing. You have to set the benefit of traiff free trade with the EU against the opportunity cost of not being ale to negotiate our own trade deals globally. Look at growth in the EU and elsewhere - the EU is yesterdays news imo. My point about trade value is that the EU should be oaying the UK for access to our highly valuable market given we are a net importer.
Used a smiley. 8)see what I did there.
I dip in and out of this thread and don't remember all of what I read even if some think I have a file on everyone. "irritant" was the perfect choice of word to provoke a reaction from me, I was irritated.
Apologies for my part (it take two to Tango) *shrugs and smiles*
But we do negotiate deals - and have them with @90% of our trade partners - often on better terms for the simple reason the they are negotiated as part of the EU. As I posted above we also negotiated deals with India which led to a 5x increase in trade between 2010-15.
It's deliberately misleading to argue that the EU inhibited our ability to trade. It facilitated and accelerated it in the EU and outside it.
#jambafact"Particularly as Labour left office in 2010."
Don't be putting 😆 it spoils the fun.
😀
Alls well that ends well
Hands duly shaken!!
I'm dual national, Molgrips, with very little time in the UK in the last 30 years. You're right, I miss some things and react less/stronger than you'd expect to others. An example of where being dismissive of important things can get you around here:
[url= http://www.humanite.fr/detail-de-lhistoire-jean-marie-le-pen-nouveau-condamne-604001 ]Le Pen's use fo the word 'detail' to mean unimportant resulted in prosecution.[/url]
Sarcasm is a national speciality after all 🙂
*sigh* my French really needs work.
Care to summarise for us tight-arses?
For the most ardent supporters of Brexit, the election of Donald Trump was a mixture of vindication and salvation. The president of the US, no less, thinks it is a great idea for Britain to leave the EU. Even better, he seems to offer an exciting escape route. The UK can leap off the rotting raft of the EU and on to the gleaming battleship HMS Anglosphere.It is an alluring vision. Unfortunately, it is precisely wrong. The election of Mr Trump has transformed Brexit from a risky decision into a straightforward disaster. For the past 40 years, Britain has had two central pillars to its foreign policy: membership of the EU and a “special relationship” with the US.
The decision to exit the EU leaves Britain much more dependent on the US, just at a time when America has elected an unstable president opposed to most of the central propositions on which UK foreign policy is based.
During the brief trip to Washington by Theresa May, the UK prime minister, this unpleasant truth was partly obscured by trivia and trade. Mr Trump’s decision to return the bust of Winston Churchill to the Oval Office was greeted with slavish delight by Brexiters. More substantively, the Trump administration made it clear that it is minded to do a trade deal with the UK just as soon as Britain’s EU divorce comes through.
But no sooner had Mrs May left Washington than Mr Trump caused uproar with his “Muslim ban”, affecting immigrants and refugees from seven countries. After equivocating briefly, the prime minister was forced to distance herself from her new best friend in the White House.
Related article
May finds goodwill from Trump visit draining away
White House wrongfooted Britain’s PM within hours of first meeting’s success
The refugee row underlined the extent to which Mrs May and Mr Trump have clashing visions of the world. Even when it comes to trade, the supposed basis for their new special relationship, the two leaders have very different views.
Mrs May says that she wants the UK to be the champion of global free trade. But Mr Trump is the most protectionist US president since the 1930s. This is a stark clash of visions that will be much harder to gloss over — if and when Mr Trump begins slapping tariffs on foreign goods and ignoring the World Trade Organisation.
In addition, any trade deal with the Trump administration is likely to be hard to swallow for Britain and would involve controversial concessions on the National Health Service and agriculture.
The British and American leaders also have profoundly different attitudes to international organisations. Mrs May is a firm believer in the importance of Nato and the United Nations. (Britain’s permanent membership of the UN Security Council is one of its few remaining totems of great power status). But Mr Trump has twice called Nato obsolete and is threatening to slash US funding of the UN.
The May and Trump administrations are also at odds on the crucial questions of the future of the EU and of Russia. Mr Trump is openly contemptuous of the EU and his aides have speculated that it might break up. This reflects the views of Nigel Farage and the UK Independence party — but not of the current British government.
Mrs May knows that her difficult negotiations with the EU will become all-but-impossible if member states believe that the UK is actively working to destroy their organisation in alliance with Mr Trump.
Her official position is that Britain wants to work with a strong EU. She probably even means it, given the economic and political dangers that would flow from its break-up.
Not the least of these dangers would be an increased threat from a resurgent Russia. The British government worked closely with the Obama administration to impose economic sanctions on the country after its annexation of Crimea. But Mr Trump is already flirting with lifting sanctions.
The reality is that the UK is now faced with a US president who is fundamentally at odds with the British view of the world. For all the forced smiles in the Oval Office last week, the May government certainly knows this. For political reasons, Boris Johnson, the British foreign minister, is having to talk up the prospects of a trade deal with Mr Trump.
Yet only a few months ago, Mr Johnson was saying that Mr Trump was “clearly out of his mind” and betrayed a “stupefying ignorance” of the world.
Were it not for Brexit — a cause that Mr Johnson enthusiastically championed — the UK government would be able to take an appropriately wary approach to Mr Trump. If Britain had voted to stay inside the EU, the obvious response to the arrival of a pro-Russia protectionist in the Oval Office would be to draw closer to its European allies.
Britain could defend free-trade far more effectively with the EU’s bulk behind it — and could also start to explore the possibilities for more EU defence co-operation. As it is, Britain has been thrown into the arms of an American president that the UK’s foreign secretary has called a madman.
In the declining years of the British empire, some of its politicians flattered themselves that they could be “Greeks to their Romans” — providing wise and experienced counsel to the new American imperium.
But the Emperor Nero has now taken power in Washington — and the British are having to smile and clap as he sets fires and reaches for his fiddle.
gideon.rachman@ft.com
For those frustrated by the lack of economic rationale from Brexshiteers, it is illuminating from Bank's book and the importance of 'abstract messages'. They chose to focus on three issues: controlling borders; keeping money at home and making our own laws. All (BS but) had 70% of people finding the arguments convincing - post truth at work. In contrast, remain focused on economics; security and risks of leaving which all scored lower than 70%.
Alternative facts work....
Careful, the FT monitor cutting and pasting closely and can get quite shirty about it. They have v accurate stats on when and how it is done.
It is also unashamedly pro-EU !
Sorry FT, mea máxima culpa.
They normally warn your first - they are not ogres. Merely firm on C&P policy!
Looks like article 50 is a shoo in now anyway. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/30/brexit-bill-to-pass-without-amendment-as-tory-rebels-back-off
[i]We are always hearing about how the PM makes £150k pa but Junker is on £400k and pays just 10% tax plus a whopping pension and a golden parachute of £500k when he leaves That's just one cushy EU job, there are 10's of thousands [/i]
C'mon Jamba we both know that these salaries (or costs if you double it, as the PM's pension contributions will be equally as huge) are pennies compared to those in industry etc - and we need to attract the equivalent type of folk.
And to put it into perspective, an IT contractor working in FS can earn what TM does, and no doubt you and your compatriots in FS earn what Junkers does easily. Nevermind all the folk working in professional services firms on public sector contracts will be also earning the same if more.
considering how quickly Mays dash to suplicate herself before tiny hands has turned into a PR disaster
Im confidant that she can catastrophically screw up the A50 procedure
Kimber remember how she was also scorned for being down the telephone list and therefore unimportant. Remarkable consistency, hey??
teamhurtmore - Member
Kimber remember how she was also scorned for being down the telephone list and therefore unimportant. Remarkable consistency, hey??
All she had to do was offer to pimp out her Maj and his ego couldnt resist, which seemed cunning at first
but trump was happy to use her for his own ends, he managed to grab her hand before letting her fly into meet Erdogan as he signed his muslim ban, where she duly got skewered by the press.
Remarkable consistency, hey??
Got to call it at the time though, at this time being the first to endorse Trump in person was desperate, her hand was a little forced by gove and farage getting into the trough early. However given the way every other leader is letting him stew a little it would have been sensible to.
If the aim was to talk trade waiting until his trade guy was appointed would have been sensible.
The real undoing was her statement about standing up to his bat shit crazy ideas then being the last one to half heartedly do so.
Yeah she was obviously put out by farage and gove, worried about her own legitimacy.
She has to make Brexit look like its going to work, wasnt her constiuency 60% remain?
Nipper I wondered where that partisan bollix came from, I see TMH gave us the answer.
Trump's election is a massive boost for Brexit. Even without a UK/US trade deal he is going to put enormous perhaps even terminal pressure on the EU who's position re Brexit has been materially weakened. We don't need a free trade deal with the US, its already our greatest trading partner (country by country). The EU responded very favoirably to Theresa May's encouraging words, they need her to calm The Donald. The EU needs to keep on the UK's good side.
Trump's election is a massive boost for Brexit.
It's a bloody good reason to stay in Europe. Who wants to fall into his sphere of influence?
He's the leader of the free world (like it or not). Europe via NATO is his sphere of influence. Ditto the eurozone via the IMF
they need her to calm The Donald. The EU needs to keep on the UK's good side.
I've no idea if this guess is right or not but I can't help but remember Tony Blair travelling the world pre-Iraq acting as Bush's ambassador. I recall some foreign head of state addressing him as "excellency" which said it all.
So that is consistent with May being recruited as Trump's sort-of de-facto psuedo alternative Ambassador to the EU.
We don't need a free trade deal with the US, its already our greatest trading partner (country by country).
This is another solid gold actual fact.
Loving your contributions today.
So, what is stopping us increasing trade with the USA now, from within the EU?
Which UK manufacturers are going to massively increase their exports to the USA as a result of us leaving the EU?
How?
We don't need a free trade deal with the US
Yup, looks we're pretty well balanced with the US (in terms of goods) so might as well just pay each others tariffs, having said that if the balance is neutral it's probably very easy to agree to a deal.
https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4120.html
Mind you that's goods...
I thought that Mrs Merkel was now the leader of the free world.
Jamba, nipper,
Hmmm... free world, leader of... who is it again who has their own embassies in not to secret revolt against them, is acting, how can I put it, a little facist (I don't think that's going too far, do you)? I'll stop there. One of them is struggling to lead their country and their country is looking decidedly less free recently - so I think that disqualifies them.
Now who do I mean?
Says who ?
Merkel was riding high after tye financial crises one of the few leaders to survive and in fact propser (despite the fact the State owned Landesbanks where some of the worst US subprime offenders). It's all gone horribly wrong with Greece/eurozone, Schengen and imported (invited) terrorism.
@igm, Trump fired all the ambassadors (which is usual actually) just shorter notice than typical. I can imagine the embassies have their noses out of joint, the new appointees are going to be rather different. Buckle up.
PS - Trumpski dances to Putin's tune dear friend. With the best dancers in the world- allegedly.
and it is going so well for Trump after week 1 🙄
Well given within one week Trump has managed to piss off Canada, Mexico, EU, most of the Muslim world and a lot of other liberal free thinking democracies the EU has a clear chance to stand up and take a more central role in the world.
the EU has a clear chance to stand up and take a more central role in the world.
Great time to be leaving eh?
most of the big US corporations have also criticized him , especially tech companies .
There, there Jambalaya...
[img] 
[/img]
most of the big US corporations have also criticized him , especially tech companies .
He's going after them sheltering profits offshore, they are very worried. The rest of the "outrage" is the new economy is aimed squarely at their younger anti-Trump customers.
EU has a clear chance to stand up and take a more central role in the world.
Ooooo kkkkk aaaa yyyyy
You can keep me up to date as to how that goes
(Totally mishandled migrant crises, thousands drowning the the Med every year. Financially broken. Second wealthiest member leaving. No military indluence as only France has capacity to act internationally. Totally reliant on the US for protection)
Jamba
@igm, Trump fired all the ambassadors (which is usual actually)
I was aware. Like you say Trump replacing the ambassadors is not news.
The news is the rest of the embassy staff being up in arms.
Ooooo kkkkk aaaa yyyyyYou can keep me up to date as to how that goes
(Totally mishandled migrant crises, thousands drowning the the Med every year. Financially broken. Second wealthiest member leaving. No military indluence as only France has capacity to act internationally. Totally reliant on the US for protection)
2nd largest economy in the world
Overwhelmed by refugees due to massive unrest in the north africa
Protecting Refugees
Not breaking it's commitment under the geneva convention to accept refugees
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-31/guide-to-the-geneva-convention-for-newly-elected-world-leaders/8225730
Preserving freedom of speach, expression and freedom of the press
Progressive, inclusive, accepting and forward thinking
I'd say the EU compares very well to the US, it's a shame the UK can't see that and insists on kicking them when they really need a helping hand. The EU will stand with the UK, the US will demand alliegance.
and a nice little summary of the basic options
[img] 
[/img]
Got to assume as always all of the things we like and none of the things we don't is off the table
Except it has a glaring error in the first line. Better ie, accurate versions already posted/linked to.
Where is it from?
Ooops seems had to fire the acting attorney general and director of immigration and customs last night..
And Theresa May's desperate decision to invite trump so quickly getting more flak
[img] 
[/img]
THM it's from the BBC
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38799686
Don't tell me Norway and the Single Market... the reading around goes with either Yes/As Good as/are you splitting heirs?
Which heir is it splitting, William or Harry?
It's factually incorrect. Period. Nothing more to say
go on then give us the THM dictionary definition.... then we can all be right all the time. You had probably best call the BBC too.
Big corporations worried about Trump?
What is he going to do?
I have done so many times. If you are happy with inaccuracy then so be it. This is the world of post truth politics after all.
I use the officially dictionary not my own - although in this case they are the same
You call, I have an emergency appointment with dentist (hence cragginess yesterday afternoon)
Desperately trying to think of whimsical tooth related joke...
Something about noticing previous posts had lacked bite, maybe something about biting when you shouldn't?
Nope, not working is it.
Trust you're ok and back to you level headed (if occasionally right wing 😉 ) self
😀
(Use the libertarian-authoritarian spectrum of you want to make a classification. More accurate than the wing one!!)
Quite a bit of pain coming sadly. Hope the lovely dentist (always helps) does her job better than the BBC journo
OK
I'll add up Norway's own definition
The European Economic Area (EEA) Agreement ensures that Norway can take part in the EU single market, and thus benefit from the free movement of persons, goods, services and capital. It guarantees non-discrimination and equal rules and competition throughout the EEA.
A stable and predictable framework
‘It gives our companies access to the single market and ensures that they can compete on the same terms as companies in EU countries. At the same time, it offers the same benefits to EU companies and citizens entering Norway.
How does it work?
The EEA Agreement is dynamic in character. It is continuously updated and amended to incorporate new single market legislation so as to maintain homogeneity across the EEA.‘Developments in Europe – both major and minor – as well as various political initiatives at European level will have direct consequences for Norway. It is therefore in our interests to cooperate closely with the EU and to participate actively in policy debates at European level,’ said Ms Aspaker.
Norway does not take part in the EU decision-making process. However we can give input during the preparatory phase when the Commission is drawing up proposals for new legislation that is to be incorporated into the EEA Agreement.
This includes the right to participate in expert groups and committees under the European Commission. A considerable number of Norwegian civil servants take part in these on a regular basis. We also have around 50 seconded national experts in the Commission.
The Agreement does not cover the EU common agriculture and fisheries policies, the customs union, the common foreign and security policy, justice and home affairs or the monetary union.
For me that is either a Full Member of the Single Market with the oversignt of the single market being from the EU where the decisions are made or so damm close that it makes nbo difference.
http://www.norway.ie/News_and_events/Norway-and-the-EU-single-market-/#.WJBFgxt96Uk
Well done mike. Some accurate language there from the Norwegians including the correct magic words that I keep highlighting
sorry my times pic was meant for the Trump thread!
but it is an excellent sign of how low Brexit has brought us
that May has rushed so quickly (18 months sooner than any other prez in history ?) and so desperately to dangle this Royal invite (irresistible to trumps ego) to such a divisive and offensive man.
This is how much she needs to make Brexit look good, that she's 'happy' to cause the inevitible protests disruption.
Itd be funny if it wasnt so sad
Use the libertarian-authoritarian spectrum of you want to make a classification. More accurate than the wing one!
Yes left/right wing is lazy I agree. However libertarian-authoritarian has its problems too. Not least because the economically libertarian tend to be (tend note not are) socially authoritarian.
Me I'm a believer in setting the rules of the game in a way that stops things hitting the skids but within that reasonably happy to let folk get on with things.
I notice at work in libertarian most of the time, but when I'm not I hit the authoritarian end of the scale very quickly.
And I have a lack of trust in people who can't move up and down that scale.
Which brings me to May. Social authoritarian - well that's not news. Political authoritarian - not a surprise. But she is now turning out to be an economic authoritarian - which I'm a little surprised at even though she may just be playing to the galley with no intention of following through. And she's coming across as a bully. So very much in the Trump/Putin mould.
Which is probably why I don't like her (I know, who would I have instead?) - although those self same traits will appeal to others.
I've tried Mike. THM has this bee in his bonnet about trying to simplify all Single Market involvement to two words… "member" or "access" and refuses to except any terms that suggest that any non-EU counties are[b] in[/b], or are [b]a part of[/b], or [b]participate in[/b] the Single Market. Even if you add caveats to clarify your meaning.
IGM - most one dimensional systems of classification are flawed. I did like the joke about biting too hard - spot on in two dimensions!
kelvin, on the contrary it is you who is simplifying matters and getting them wrong. Factually wrong. I am being precise and it's not just semantics, it's fundamental to understand the distinction. If the Norwegians can get it right, we should be able to too.
That you and mike, choose to ignore this is fine. We just disqualify you from the next vote 😉
We have [b]access[/b] to the Single market via WTO - services are tariff free, financial transactions are likely to be subject to regulatory restrictions. Note these exist in the US but the UK still does a large amount of such business with the US.
[b]Membership[/b] of the single market is to all intents and purposes membership of the European Union. The EU has decided for political reasons that full tariff free access to the single market involves accepting other non-related requirements.
f the Norwegians can get it right, we should be able to too.
The Norwegians got it totally wrong. Ignored No Referedmum result and joined up the the EU in everything except name.
No jambas, we are full members of the single market.
Going forward we will not be. We have to decide on the appropriate model that will give is access to the single market
Norway didnt get in wrong - unlike Mike and Kelvin and the Beeb - they define their relationship correctly
We have access to the Single market via WTO - services are tariff free, financial transactions are likely to be subject to regulatory restrictions. Note these exist in the US but the UK still does a large amount of such business with the US.
Well that deals with your own selfish interests but not other sectors such as agriculture.
SNP amendments: First amendment says bill fails to provide "legal protection" with regard to the single market, the customs union, and freedom of movement. Second amendment says there is no provision for consultation with the Scottish government and other devolved administrations.
So in addition to ignoring the results of TWO votes, the SNP are also choosing to ignore the ruling of the Supreme Court.
On the quiet they have compromised on full membership now - canny wee devils - to pander to some voters. They do know how to fool the unwary. #SDBMB
So in addition to ignoring the results of TWO votes, the SNP are also choosing to ignore the ruling of the Supreme Court.
you in an argumentative mood THM? Wanting somebody to knock that tooth out 😉
The courts said they didn't have to have a role. However nothing to stop an amendment to include it. It's called politics.
The aims of the amendments is to find enough support to get them passed that the leavers can't accept.
Urrm, the court ruled the government doesn't [b]have[/b] to seek approval from Scotland, NI and Wales.
It doesn't mean the government shouldn't, you know in the interest of fairness and decency.
In a lot of ways it would be more fair for England to leave the UK, rather than drag the others down with them.
Its the anaesthetic and the headache combined!! 😉
The amendments are quite amusing especially given the ones that confuse you know what....? If MPs cant get their heads round it (basic facts), why are we having them decide?