[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Dont worry he is still laughing cause he won, he has no idea what he had won but its OK he won

I am beginning to think that THM and Jambalaya are one and the same person; THM's Dr Jekyll to Jambalaya's Mr Hyde.

But if the cost of finding out what's in the box is as demonstrated by Enola's recent shameful behaviour to the extent of having to cosy up with tyrants and narcissists then that a box I would sooner leave alone but never mind, dogmatic Brexit at any cost.

Nah, we just ride, play tennis and drink wine together occasionally - too rarely these days,

Oh, and look how well appeasement works out....in my mothers lifetime.

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TBF I have nothing against models and modelling as simple tools to frame further research. It is when models are dogmatically used to justify policy decisions I have a problem.

Oh, and look how well appeasement works out....in my mothers lifetime

Ah, Brexit and Trump = the new holocaust

And you wonder why people stopped listening to the remain/anti-Trump campaigns 🙄

All those white supremacist Heil trumpers certainly got that message ninfan

And you wonder why people stopped listening to the remain/anti-Trump campaigns

No, I think we've all got a pretty good idea why that would be, TBH.

Let me guess Cougar - Cause they're all racists?

Democracy, eh?

Democracy means retaining the right to hold opposing views, protest, challenge, campaign, even after you have lost.

Let me guess Cougar - Cause they're all racists?

No, but thanks for assuming that.

Democracy means retaining the right to hold opposing views, protest, challenge, campaign, even after you have lost.

Quite.

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I agree, it does, and as is the right for the majority to dismiss those who do as hysterical, petulant, whining sore losers who just don't know how to handle not getting what you want.

I would certainly suggest that the vast majority would find comparing Brexit to the holocaust as at best distasteful, and that many would regard it as exactly the type of hysterical scaremongering and over exaggeration that made them vote leave in the first place.

You really don't like that we haven't just "shut up and got on with it," do you.

You really don't like that we haven't just "shut up and got on with it," do you.

It's not about 'liking' it, I just can't see much point in it, whine all you like, were still leaving, spend today posting all the pro EU memes and propaganda you like, tomorrow we'll still be leaving

and there's nothing you can do about it 😆

We probably should do, we are whining at exactly the time we should be getting on with things, it's poor.

WF agreed. Model and Maths lend an overly precise perception to a subject that is anything but. Assumptions need to be tested constantly.

You don't see any point in protesting?

Ok, protesting on a mountain biking forum is pretty pointless beyond the interest of debate, but if you think we're just going to go "oh, all right then" you're sadly mistaken.

Ninfan, did the brexiters shut up in 1975? Time to get used to the remainers now.

You don't see any point in protesting?

Do you think that protesting will make the government cancel Brexit?

Who knows. I know for certain though that not protesting won't make them do it.

I would certainly suggest that the vast majority would find comparing Brexit to the holocaust as at best distasteful, and that many would regard it as exactly the type of hysterical scaremongering and over exaggeration that made them vote leave in the first place.

no one would put Brexit on a par with the holocaust (but we don't know where this end) but it would appear that you as a Brexiteer are prepared to swallow any amount of vile behaviour in your dogmatic belief that you were right - if Trump says the cost of your free trade deal is that you sign up to whatever political agenda he is pedalling then you will say thanks, where do we sign.

time to get used to the remainders now

I know for certain though that not protesting won't make them do it

A campaign to bring about a speedy rejoining of the EU is practical and realistic, a cohesive campaign (and I said this months ago) for Brexit light/retention of the single market is entirely practical and realistic, perhaps even sensible, and would have been a worthwhile use of your efforts (indeed, if all your efforts had gone into this may well have been successful), but instead you have spent, and continue to spend, all your time campaigning and protesting ever more hysterically to block/ignore the Brexit vote, which simply isn't going to happen.

all your time campaigning and protesting ever more hysterically

It worked well for farage and co 😛

I agree, it does, and as is the right for the majority to dismiss those who do as hysterical, petulant, whining sore losers who just don't know how to handle not getting what you want.

You appear to have described the attitudes of an awful lot of brexiters, yourself included, over the fact that brexit (whatever it actually is) hasn't actually happened yet, and a whole bunch of people who disagree with you are making some quite credible predictions about just what a bad idea it is. But then, you enjoy your alternative facts.

we are whining at exactly the time we should be getting on with things, it's poor.

Getting on with what? Being bent over and royally done up the posterior by a bunch of myopic lunatics? If that's your idea of fun then knock yerself out, but don't suppose for one minute that going "oh alright then, you won on a grossly misleading campaign, but democracy, so meh" will improve things one iota.

Getting on with what?

Or would the leavers like us to step up and fix this mess?

We could all try and guess the best way to insulate out lives from the shock and crash that is very obviously coming.

Being in Australia seems to be working reasonably well 😉

(Well, until Trumpet and the Chinese have a nice little wrestle over the South China Sea, but I suppose even that's preferable to Putin having unopposed "holidaying rights" to a chunk of eastern Europe)

Yes remember a weak pound is great when you don't earn them...

Do you think that protesting will make the government cancel Brexit?

No, but it ought to make May listen to our concerns. Given the strength of opposition to hard Brexit she should soften her position. That would be how to unite the country. But instead she's moving as far away from a conciliatory position as she can.

The best way to "step up and fix the mess" is to stop it from happening. A campaign to rejoin the EU seems a bit premature since we are several years away from leaving it!

hysterical, petulant, whining

Read the comments section on a newspaper website under the high court challenge story. A perfectly decent court case decided in the appropriate way. And yet hysterical, petulant and whining is exactly what these people are like.

Those people, those commenters - they are the ones who gave you the referendum victory. You prepared to stand with them?

No, but it ought to make May listen to our concerns.

Quite. (But it probably won't.)

I've said this before, but the one thing the referendum showed was that we are a country divided and that a lot of people aren't happy. Two, the two things the referendum showed, etc.

This whole "you lost, we won" and horseshit is on the same intellectual level as "two world wars and one world cup, doo daa." It's making the country [i]more[/i] divided, not less.

Abiding by "the will of the people" is laudable, but that's not what's actually happening, they're abiding by the will of some of the people who whichever way you choose slice it are a statistically irrelevant majority. Meanwhile, the other half of the population have got no voice, no representation, and are being wilfully ignored and shouted down. These Leave screwheads who keep banging on about "democracy" like a child who's just learned a new swear word would do well to consider this; how is ignoring half the populace in any way whatsoever a democratic process?

Off with their heads !

Let me do this the simple way.

Ninfan, chewkw, Jamba - nothing you have said in hundreds of pages makes a halfway decent case for leaving.
As I have never been a bandwagon jumper, particularly if it looks like it's heading for a cliff, forgive me if I don't jump in your bandwagon - think if it as just making Brexit that tiny bit more niche. You could have tee shirts saying "I was a Brexy before Wiggo won".

I hold Brexies responsible for splitting this country and I shall do my best to leave them at the back of the queue any chance I get.

I am, as I have said, in a very small way part of the recovery effort for this mess. I shall try and secure jobs for remain voters.

nothing you have said in hundreds of pages makes a halfway decent case for leaving.

Who cares, we voted, and we're leaving 😀

No, but it ought to make May listen to our concerns. Given the strength of opposition to hard Brexit she should soften her position. That would be how to unite the country. But instead she's moving as far away from a conciliatory position as she can.

But you're not arguing or campaigning for her to soften her position/soft Brexit, you are campaigning/protesting/arguing for her to ignore the outcome of the referendum and not do Brexit at all. The *reaonable* side of your argument is drowned out and lost in the shadow of the unreasonable demand, that can only and will only be ignored as a democratically unacceptable outcome.

Just as a matter of interest, what sort of Brexit would please you? Would you like it as hard as you can get?

hysterical, petulant, whining

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Ninfan, chewkw, Jamba - nothing you have said in hundreds of pages makes a halfway decent case for leaving.

I was going to ask exactly that earlier and got side-tracked.

The situation we're in now is full of if's and maybe's, as people scramble to try and plan out how to deal with this in a manner which gives us basically the "least bad" scenario. Most of what people have cited as actually remotely sensible reasons for leaving - control of immigration, trade deals, etc etc - are things [i]we already have[/i], and we're now looking at how to make deals to keep as much of it as we can.

Please, tell me. In what way are we better off out of the EU compared to where we are, well, not now but before all this nonsense started?

Who cares, we voted, and we're leaving

... and that's exactly the sort of brain-dead argument we get when we ask. WE CARE, you blithering eejit.

igm - Member
Let me do this the simple way.

Ninfan, chewkw, Jamba - nothing you have said in hundreds of pages makes a halfway decent case for leaving.

When you refuse to accept others' views and steadfast in your own then there is nothing more out there that can convince you.

That's because those are your values which make up your identify of who you are.

I accept your views and respect them but I also laugh at them which is normal just like everyone laughs at mine.

slowoldman - Member
Would you like it as hard as you can get?

All the whining is doing is demonstrating a failure to respect the vote and the democratic process and a "we know better than you" attitude. That may be correct, but it doesn't matter. We lost.

Zokes, perhaps the reason we lost is a tendency to lose perspective as you wilder comments highlight. By 2020, our economy is likely to be somewhere around 4% smaller than it would otherwise have been. OK, not good but not a disaster. Behind this will be more costly trade and investment. Sad but true, but this is not a rogering, it is merely an avoidable deviation from a trend. We will survive.

farting around pretending it didn't happen, pissing off the Europeans EVEN more in the process is not going to make things better. it will more likely make them worse.

The idea that we don't have a plan is clearly Bllx too. What we don't know/have is the detail. You don't know what the detail is until you know what you are dealing with. You don't know what you are dealing with until your start negotiating. You can't start negotiating until you trigger A50. So very clear what has to happen.

So turn off the news, avoid the sensational headlines and Laura bloody Kuesnberg. None of this day-to-day stuff matters. We are leaving the EU rightly or wrongly. The only unknow is under what terms. This will become clear over the next 24 months.

you blithering eejit

Now, now cougs, you should be setting an example of treating each other with respect even if the arguments are bllx

"Zokes, perhaps the reason we lost is a tendency to lose perspective as you wilder comments highlight. By 2020, our economy is likely to be somewhere around 4% smaller than it would otherwise have been. OK, not good but not a disaster."

Agree - IIRC 6pc smaller after fifteen years.

Which, I think, is why MPs are willing to vote for it. It's just not going to be that bad.

All the whining is doing is demonstrating a failure to respect the vote and the democratic process

I don't respect the vote. It was an opinion poll, people cannot and should not be entrusted to make big decisions when the vast majority of us are ill-equipped to make an educated, experienced choice. This is why we have politicians.

It's important to note though that I do respect the opinions of those who voted, which isn't the same thing. As I've said repeatedly the sensible thing to do in the wake of the referendum would've been to act on the reasons people voted in order to appease the (actual) majority of people regardless of which way they voted. The country was split down the middle, the only logical course of action is a compromise solution.

A "hard Brexit," or ignoring it completely and carrying on as normal, is by turns be a disservice to Remain or Leave respectively. So I don't respect that on the back of it they've decided to completely ignore the wishes of half of the voters.

And as we've done to death previously, I don't respect that a referendum vote on an individual policy being held as a mandatory "well, that's what we'll have to do, then" decision has anything remotely to do with the "democratic process." We vote for MPs, not for policies, and we expect those elected representatives to then act in our best interests, not to blindly do what we tell them. We're proles, not newspaper owners.

The country was split down the middle, the only logical course of action is a compromise solution.

I don't respect the vote. It was an opinion poll,

OK, if that is your starting premise, then there is nothing more to debate.

There is of course the counter to you concerns of half of the population (yes we did we see what you did there, nice spinning), your solution is even works since it ignores the wishes of the slightly bigger half who want us to leave the EU.

the only logical course of action is a compromise solution.

But you're not arguing for a compromise solution, you're arguing that we should remain in the EU, that's not Compromise, it's the direct opposite of what we voted for.

But you're not arguing for a compromise solution, you're arguing that we should remain in the EU, that's not Compromise, it's the direct opposite of what we voted for.

I havent agree with you much on this topic ninfan, but +1

still leaves 50% of the population pissed off

Well, 48%, the loosing side.

48% of voters....

who knows about those who didnt vote?

There is of course the counter to you concerns of half of the population (yes we did we see what you did there, nice spinning),

Spin? Of those voted, it was as near to a 50:50 split as makes no odds (and I said "half" as I was trying to avoid yet another 48 / 52 / 37 / 27 who knows what other statistic argument). My point was that the country is split down the middle and you're seriously pulling me up for rounding by like two percentage points?

But you're not arguing for a compromise solution, you're arguing that we should remain in the EU, that's not Compromise, it's the direct opposite of what we voted for.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Leavers voted leave for any number of reasons. Some may not be reconcilable, I don't know, but many are. Some voted because they want tighter control of immigration for instance; we can do that already without having to leave the EU. Some believed the bus lie; again, we can give more funding to the NHS without leaving the EU.

And of course, some just want out at all costs. There's no reasoning with these people, largely because they don't seem to have any actual reasons, they just want it.

You'll never please everyone. But by finding out why people voted out and addressing those concerns, you'll please more people overall than any other course of action.

But you're not arguing for a compromise solution, you're arguing that we should remain in the EU, that's not Compromise, it's the direct opposite of what we voted for.

keep calm, i was pulling your leg about saying half of "the population" when referring to the losing side instead of "half the voters"

Meanwhile, the other half of the population have got no voice, no representation, and are being wilfully ignored and shouted down.

Why do you think that the votes of those on the other side to us have less value than the ones on our side. In my book, they are the same.

We will have a compromise, that is what happens in a negotiation

While we will no longer be members of the single market, we will continue to have access to it. The unknown is what form that access will take. By definition - a compromise...

Meanwhile back to bad losing....

Meanwhile back to bad losing....

While we will no longer be members of the single market, we will continue to have access to it.

keep calm, i was pulling your leg about saying half of "the population" when referring to the losing side instead of "half the voters"

(-: I was extrapolating. The vote, rightly or wrongly, is supposed to be representative of the populace as a whole (that's how opinion polls generally work, you don't interview everyone, just a sample). Knowing what those who didn't or couldn't vote would've chosen if they had done is speculative at best.

Speaking of speculating I'd like to bet that if voting had been mandatory, Leave wouldn't have won (and they almost certainly would have got demolished if 16-18 year olds had been allowed a vote), so in saying "half" I'm probably being generous.

Why do you think that the votes of those on the other side to us have less value than the ones on our side. In my book, they are the same.

I don't, that's exactly what I've just been saying.

Thank you for the assurance. Will that access be more or less expensive than our current arrangement?

More. That's why I voted to remain.

I don't, that's exactly what I've just been saying.

Good cougs, well more of the same value of votes were to leave the EU than to remain. So that is what we are doing.

OOI, which of the many opinion polls are you referring to? I was referring the the referendum which was a different thing

You are either being loose with you choice of words or spinning deliberately. Hmmm,....

I know.

It's ****ing stupid, isn't it.

Its not smart no, but there we are. Life is like that at times. Character is about how you respond to good and bad things that life throws at you, often in a random manner.

Right now, we have a challenge. Character is shown by responding to it in a positive manner, not whining, making false claims, sticking our heads in the sand. Leave that to the SNP.

THM - I not whining, I am responding positively.
Those who voted to leave, with the fewer jobs and lower standard of living that entails should be allowed to have that. For me to go against their wishes to be worse off would not be fair in them.
At the same time those who voted for tolerance, prosperity and an outward looking society should not be overlooked and I will do my best to support the 48ers in those goals.
Everyone gets what they want. Can't say fairer than that.

Of course character is also about digging in and playing you part, paying your way when the time comes, not quitting and running away when it is your turn to carry the team.

Character is shown by responding to it in a positive manner, not whining, making false claims, sticking our heads in the sand.

No, character is shown by sticking with and arguing for a set of beliefs despite being called a whiner or a moaner etc.

You are Jambalaya and I claim my £5.00.

PS - I draw the line at the Minford's zero tariff proposal that would kill the vast majority of manufacturing and farming in the UK - his view not mine. May's tax haven idea sounds remarkably close to Minford-ism.

Still not seeing these positive benefits to leaving that we asked about a page or two back (beyond the eloquent and compelling "who cares," incidentally. Anyone?

not whining, making false claims

I'm not whining, frankly I'm terrified.

Which false claims would they be?

"I don't respect the vote. It was an opinion poll,"

Ditto, it means nothing.

I had the second opportunity in eight days to vote euro-positive so M. Hamond got my vote for the second time in the lefty primaries here in socialist land.

"I don't respect the vote. It was an opinion poll,"

Those who voted to leave, with the fewer jobs and lower standard of living that entails should be allowed to have that. For me to go against their wishes to be worse off would not be fair in them.
At the same time those who voted for tolerance, prosperity and an outward looking society should not be overlooked and I will do my best to support the 48ers in those goals.
Everyone gets what they want. Can't say fairer than that.

No one gets anything, that's just a fantasy. Be real.

You are Jambalaya and I claim my £5.00.

You can, but I charge interest at an outrageous rate. You may want to reconsider.

"I don't respect the vote. It was an opinion poll,"

Ditto, it means nothing.

The ONE thing that is was not, was an opinion poll. We had those totally separately unless we are making more false claims to hide the fact we lost.

But you are right, you don't respect the vote. THAT is obvious.

The ONE thing that is was not, was an opinion poll.

Do you need me to dig out the Government documentation which explains that referendums are not legally binding? Or remind you of the recent legal battle which confirmed that the Government didn't have the authority to make it so?

"The ONE thing that is was not, was an opinion poll."

All it was, AFAIK, was a measure of public opinion. It's not legally binding in any way at all.

If we'd voted to Nuke Bristol it would have been ignored.

No you need to be precise in your language that is all.

if you are claiming that on the 23 June 2016 we had an opinion poll then you are either mistaken or spinning, you decide?

Can you tell me which polling organisation conducted the poll - if it happened?

Remind yourself what the recent court case referred to. Here's a clue, a R_F_R_N___. An easy starter for 10.

All it was, AFAIK, was a measure of public opinion. It's not legally binding in any way at all.

If we'd voted to Nuke Bristol it would have been ignored.

Even if the people had spoken?

No you need to be precise in your language that is all.

You know what I mean, language or no, you're just splitting hairs. As OOB says, whether you call it a poll, a referendum, a vote, or a cheese sandwich, it's still a means of gathering opinion and has no legal ("democratic") basis.

If we'd voted to Nuke Bristol it would have been ignored.

No I am not. You are deliberately choosing words to make a point. They are incorrect. The vote on the 23 June 2016 was not an "opinion poll". FACT.

You can try the trick of those you chastise here and repeat the same claim, but it will not make it true.

Still not seeing these positive benefits to leaving that we asked about a page or two back (beyond the eloquent and compelling "who cares," incidentally. Anyone?

Irrelevant - You had a chance to make that argument beforehand, you did, we listened, and decided.

You're [b]still[/b] trying to refight the referendum rather than concentrating on what comes next.

You're still trying to refight the referendum rather than concentrating on what comes next.

Forget Putin, I reckon Sturgeon has hacked everyones' brains and computers

If we'd voted to Nuke Bristol it would have been ignored.

If we could have slightly more than a five minute warnining thou, I'd be vary greatfull.

My biggest moan apart from all the lying on both sides is that anyone with half a brain would have put some small print that you had to have a specific majority say 60/40 a vote which is so close is just asking for trouble.

Steaming ahead with a narrow majority on a non binding referendum will probably not be greatest decision ever taken when history is written about this.

ninfan - what comes next is the fightback to prevent this piece of national self harm

THM : Wow, the vitriol you have reserved for the SNP/Nicola Sturgeon is quite something, you should really let it go otherwise i fear you may become an embittered solo voice emanating from that high horse you've mounted.

Too late

It's happening

You can fight for the easy way, or take it the hard way, but It's still happening.

The whole things reminiscent of the 2010 election, where labour spent five years afterwards trying to refight that election by talking about the economy, while the Tories and SNP were romping home unopposed