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How about giving Scotland membership of the EU tomorrow so that Frankfurt (Bundesbank) and Berlin can determine their future instead if Westminster. What's not to like? The EU is more important that the rUK after all.
Cleggis now saying that the British people must have a say on all the details. What planet does he live on??
Great idea, let's hold a referendum on each item which needs negotiating.
One vote on the final deal, not seperate votes on each detail.
It'll never happen anyway, because when we get the final deal, only a minority of Brits will consider it a better deal than staying in the EU. It won't look like the fantasies painted during the referendum campaign. The anti-EU tories will never take that risk… they can taste the blood now.
teamhurtmore - Member
Thank you - but I would prefer apples and apples ie, the U.K. and the EUNone, the BIll should simply state that we are going to/want to trigger A50
And that parliament gets to rattify the outcome in 2 years time.
I agree, nothing should be in it about negotiating positions.
It'll never happen, because when we get the final deal, only a minority of Brits will consider it a better deal than staying in the EU. It won't look like the fantasies painted during the referendum campaign.
The final deal is that is it or nothing. It's not exactly a choice is it?
Thank you Jloe, I fear that in his excitement or depair Mike has lost sight of what A50 is.
THM utter BS.
It isn't, if it is a short bill there is very little that can be amended, amendments have to relate to clauses of the Bill, you can't fly a kite.
On Scotland, I'd be gutted if they left… but remember… the vote to stay in the EU was won North of the border by a greater % than the vote to stay in the UK, worryingly. I don't think they will split the UK, but nothing is being done to reassure them by the UK government. Nothing at all.
Thornberry asked to define Lab position on Newsnight now
Missed with first go
Second go was not saying anything
Third?
It isn't, if it is a short bill there is very little that can be amended, amendments have to relate to clauses of the Bill, you can't fly a kite.
It's not been written yet.
It can be voted down for being wholly inappropriate for what it is being used for and re written.
This is not a dictatorship.
Third?
Sixth?
I bet it has been, they knew they were going to lose the SC decision.
Thornberry on FOM is hilarious. EVan having fun now.
Must be getting crowded under your bridge with Chewkw et al THM
Labour are truly desperate here. It's really rather sad.
It's not been written yet.
As THM says i think it has.
Who is going to vote it down?
Welcome Gordi, how nice to hear from you.
80-100 MPs (edit: against not down obviously)
And you,Hurtmore you haven't changed a bit
What a coincidence
@kimbers I used to work closely with Guy. He is a decent enough man but he basically blew up his fund with a terrible investment in EMI and then fought and lost a court case trying to hold Citibank responsible for bluffing him in the negotiation. Read into that and his Brexit predictions what you may.
on itv news , they said it would be presented on thursday .
Thornberry asked to define Lab position on Newsnight now
Watching it. Pathetic quite frankly. Labour are making a catastrophic mistake. Quite apart from the irony that a labour leadership who are supposed to represent something different to their predecessors, are following meekly in their footsteps in agreeing with the tories,. As with Iraq and other other ill-fated policies borne of false consensus, they're on the wrong side of the argument, and in many respects I have little doubt they'll suffer from it in future.
Who would want to be a politician? Despite appearances tonight, Thornberry is no fool. So what must she be thinking on her way home?
WTF am I doing looking a clown on national TV?
They are between a rock and a hard place - just like the LibDems in 2010, at risk of an oversimplification, the two sides of their internal coalition are split and there is no easy answer.
missed thornburry but Sun editor was right, this is going to take many many years
and i think be a drag on the country, in every area, economically, socially, education, healthcare, investment in infrastructure....
all will be neglected while this circle is squared
mefty - Member
They are between a rock and a hard place - just like the LibDems in 2010, at risk of an oversimplification, the two sides of their internal coalition are split and there is no easy answer.
true, but the answer is grow some balls and make a choice. Show some conviction.
gordimhor - Member
Must be getting crowded under your bridge with Chewkw et al THM
😆 ^^^
Really can you actually get an answer from Thornberry.
I was watching her on Question Time and she would go on and on and on and on ... without ever answering anything ... 😛
Labour are not split on europe in any great way - the vast majority back staying in the EU. the issue is some of the dullrds like Burns think by pandering to the tory press and playing the race card they might get more votes in the north of England. they should be leading public opinion on this but they are so weak and so in thrall to the tory press that they are unable to do so.
Kimbers - exactly - all the more reason to get on with it. It isn't going away.
Mikesmith - I am fortunate that I have an SNP mp so they will be representing my interests as strongly as they can do. 50 amendments lined up.
I suspect this will be a car crash. Labour will put amendments backing membership of the free trade area and remaining in eu institutions. that will only need a small amount of torys to rebel to be passed. The SNP will also produce amendments that will attact all other parties plus the majority of tory MPs who want to stay in the EU and again I wouldn't bet against a tory rebellion.
Why do you think May was so keen not to put this to parliament? - she knows her party is hopelessly divided on Europe 80 tories are ready to rebel.
salmond the political schemer willbe all over this like a rash and I will bet that some of the SNP amendments are designed to attract rebel tories - Folk like Clarke.
Kimbers - exactly - all the more reason to get on with it. It isn't going away.
We need delay. We've discussed why. May decided she could only risk 6 months of delay before triggering politically, but it's not just about kicking the can down the street… lots going on behind the scenes… we're not ready. It would be good to get things done and out of the way quickly, but "good" and "feasible" don't meet up on this one, despite some leading brexiters talking up a magical swift exit.
Business needs delay like a hole n the head. Be real.
We will never be "ready" - you never are - you are always dealing with incomplete information. Businesses know that.
We have laid out our position and red lines. Next step negotiate. It's not that hard. The hard bit is the execution later
We don't have the staff in place to negotiate yet.
Next step negotiate. It's not that hard. The hard bit is the execution later
Yep negotiation is easy. Go to the top of a hill, attach a rope to your car, release the brakes and set off towards the cliff. The other side decides when to stop you.
They are between a rock and a hard place
True, and I have some sympathy, but in situations like this being on the rational side of the argument always wins, irrespective of whatever short term tactical gains they think they might achieve. On the big issues people don't forget, or forgive very quickly. Thatcher learned this with the poll tax, Blair with Iraq, Nick Clegg on the coalition, and I eventually Corbyn/labour on Brexit. They have nothing to gain by supporting it, and everything to lose in the long term.
We don't need delay - we need some politicians with spines to stop this absurd destructive nonsense
I think you fears are unfounded. Labour will be forgotten on Brexshit or merely dismissed as irrelevant
Look ^ people are already equating Brexshit and the Tories. Labour just has to endure their turn in purdah while the Tories do their thing on Europe.
teamhurtmore - Member
Kimbers - exactly - all the more reason to get on with it. It isn't going away.
it was always going to be a dogs dinner...
NHS, education, housing crisis, heathrow decision, hinkley decision, child abuse nvestigation, the last 30 years (that ive beenaware of politics) has shown us that every major issue becomes a political football caught between parliamentary egos, an unchecked press, monied interests and Brexit obviously meaning Brexit which means different things to everyone
Ive managed to find a projection of what the initial discussions on Brexit within government will look like, thats before we even get to the fabled negotiation stage
Labour will be forgotten on Brexshit or merely dismissed as irrelevant
Until they try to fight an election on the basis of the tories failure on brexit, at which point the tories will shout 'but you supported it too'.
There is nothing to negotiate. We will get the crumbs the rest of the EU offer us. thats it. We hold no cards, we have nothing to offer. they have already written us off. There is no incentive or reason for anyone in the EU to give us any sort of deal
And by the way, the really important issue is that people are still using referenda when I explained pages ago why it is completely wrong, which makes it about the only thing in this whole debate of which that can be said.
[i]Mr Williams said any EU deal must allow the company to move its products and workers around Europe, including at short notice and without restrictions.
The UK government has indicated it may try to make special arrangements for key sectors such as aerospace.
[/I]
Hmm, so if your business (or type of business) isn't seen as 'important' or 'critical' it'll be tough, deal with it yourself.
Or to look at it another way, no subsidy (either cash or favours).
BR - and you think the rest of the EU will stand for that? Well they might for airbus but not for other industries and even for airbus I bet the rest will just grab that wing building contract.
NO pick an d choose remeber. accept the 4 freedoms in full or get nothing.
I take it that when Parliament vote for article 50, all the whingers who were harping on about the referendum being advisory, and about parliamentary supremacy, will be silenced, and fully accept that leaving the EU is the democratically mandated choice of the country?
Yeah, thought so...
democracy and silenced, 2 words that go well together in a sentence.... 😆
Yeah, thought so...
What does Brexit look like to you? Will you be happy if it's not the one you were thinking about? How about one with freedom of movement, subscription to the EU and free trade?
Simple isn't it or are you just hoping for a tory whitewash sending the UK closer to the US level of life where the poor can just piss off and die quietly while you can pump your food full of hormones?
Of the 37% that voted leave I'll say confidently and less that half that will be happy with the end result. That will be a truly democratic moment.
ninfan - my country voted remain 😉
There is no mandate for the hard exit we are now heading for as that is not what the people were told would happen
There is nothing to negotiate. We will get the crumbs the rest of the EU offer us. thats it. We hold no cards, we have nothing to offer. they have already written us off. There is no incentive or reason for anyone in the EU to give us any sort of deal
Europe stands at the edge of a Soveriegn debt cliff
Qunatative easing by the ECB was too late, Europe is stagnating
Unemployment amongst the young is at a critical level (25-50%)
WTO tariffs would hurt European exporters to the wealthy UK market very badly
Despite all the collectove tough talking many countries face testing elections
We have the strongest cards and by far
You keep on telling yourself that Jamba - meanwhile in the real world......................
the UK market is small beer to the EU.
Sorry, I know this is a few pages back, but the sheer doublethink of this recent Jamby post needs more scrutiny:
jambalaya - Member
@TJ did you see that Government stat of the amount of business Scotland does with UK vs EU ? Having tariff free access to the UK is much more important. An iS will look very exposed economically with a WTO deal with the UK and a $50 oil price.
Here we have someone who has in the face of an awful lot of facts campaigned that a smaller party (the UK) ceding from a larger party (the EU) would bring economic freedom and prosperity for that smaller party through a nebulous membership to an even larger party (WTO). But now the smaller party is Scotland, the medium party is the UK, and the larger party is the EU he decides that the smaller party is at grave risk of economic ruin if it cedes from the medium party, and stronger membership with the larger party wouldn't outweigh this.
I know many Jambyfacts make no sense, but that really takes the biscuit
Any decent government would come up with a good down the middle compromise that includes the will of the 48% of people who wanted to remain. The will of the people is not just the 52% who wanted to leave...
Ninfan - once parliament vote A50 through I will accept the legitimacy of the process. However I will still regard it as the wrong decision and do what can to oppose it.
That means little things like choosing not to spend my money with businesses that supported Brexit. And if a 50:59 decision on hiring staff comes by, should I consider voting for Brexit a demonstration of a lack of judgment? You'd have to consider it.
once parliament vote A50 through I will accept the legitimacy of the process.
I was going to wait until they paid $350 million into the NHS, funded everything the EU did and more and made it all work brilliantly 😉 I think the control everyone was looking for was infact the remote for Borris, it's probably down the back of the sofa.
There is nothing to negotiate. We will get the crumbs the rest of the EU offer us. thats it. We hold no cards, we have nothing to offer. they have already written us off. There is no incentive or reason for anyone in the EU to give us any sort of deal
Why are we hiring so many negotiaters then?
Why has the EU got a negotiating team?
Why would they not lose from a disruption in trade with an important trading partner?
Jambas. Any chance of one date point that supports your argument that EU is stagnating (when it is growing only slightly less that the UK and in several cases faster?)
So Kerley your proposal for keeping the 48 happy when we leave is...... ? I thought they (me) wanted to stay, so how will they be happy when we leave? Do we get an EU flag each for nostalgia?
Mike when did the government make any promises about £350m and the NHS?
Naah. We get personal freedom of movement and anything sold to us doesn't have tariffs applied. All our Brexy friends will love us 'cos we can get stuff cheap.
The French elections just became a lot more open. It turns out Fillon gave his wife a fictitious job for which the tax payer paid her 800 000e over five years. My personal appreciation on the basis of their performance so far:
1= Macron/Hamond
2 Melonchon
3 Le Pen
4 Fillon
Mike when did the government make any promises about £350m and the NHS?
Made by the winning side in the referendum. If Jamba (or May) can argue that the remain side saying leave means leave everything, then arguing the £350m is equally valid (probably more given it was what the winning side said they'd do - they never said they'd leave everything or Jamba would have told us - that was just what the losing side said the winning side would do if they won - which they did, by an extremely narrow margin).
Yeah, but she did some real work didn't she, Edukator? The fact that no one could find it....
Has anyone spotted I'm bored on a long train journey again?
Made by the winning side in the referendum
Indeed. The question remains unanswered though
Paid four or five time the SMIC for work no-one can find, igm, that's not going to go down well with the centre-right voters Fillon needs on his side to win. He lost me long ago and I'm a part of the demographic he needs, I've voted Bayrou and Sarko on a national level and green in the Europeans.
THM - I don't recall Cameron's government making those promises. But that's irrelevant - we have a new government now - same MPs (roughly) but a new government.
Same as it's irrelevant whether remain or Cameron's government said we'd leave the single market - we have a new government now.
Edukator - agreed. It is a little unfortunate isn't it?
No we don't, we have a new PM and some different bums on seats.
The gov didn't say we'd leave, they said that they would implement the outcome whatever the people decide.
That is what they are doing. For that, at least, they should be applauded especially as it goes against their wishes. Democracy hey!!
All they were asked was "leave EU?"
If you are going to include leave single market you need to include pay £350m a week to NHS in order to maintain any consistency.
PS - a new PM and a few different bums on seats is a new government. We (some time ago) elected parliament, but Mrs May has formed a government.
Might be going against Mays wishes, but shes a career politician don't forget.. she'd be runining her career if she stuck to her 'beliefs'... so what call do you think she'd make? Hahah!
Edukator - agreed. It is a little unfortunate isn't it?
It think Edukator got his numbers the wrong way round, I have read it is £500,000 over 8 Years, but is is a storm in a tea cup, the French will understand that British productivity lags behind.
So igm, what do you mean by the EU? What do YOU think that we have voted to leave?
teamhurtmore - Member
So igm, what do you mean by the EU? What do YOU think that we have voted to leave?
Because people too readily believe what the tabloids say, tabloids that may have vested interest in the vote going a certain way.
That's a damn good question and one that MPs need to discuss / debate. (That's what MPs are for - well one of the things)
I'm a bit of a "what it says on the tin" type on this. Things you can only be in if you're in the EU we have voted to leave. Everything else is up for grabs.
We can assert to our hearts content what that vote may or may not have meant - but the only thing we know is that it meant leave the EU itself. It said nothing about things that you have to be part of to be in the EU, but you don't have to be in the EU to be part of.
we have just had months of discussions - what do YOU think it is and what have we left?
For sample, did we vote to give up membership of the single market? The reason I ask is that you seem to be mixing the what (EU/singer market perhaps?) and the why (I struggle to type this but the £350m). IMO they are separate.
No - see above.
Given Norway is in the single market (though that assumes one definition of the single market and there may be others) but they are not in the EU, then that fails the test. You can leave the EU and still be part of the single market.
I have got the numbers the wrong way around - half-remembered from the radio.
I think the level of corruption of candidates will have a big influence in the forthcoming French elections. People have seen Trump elected and Brexit voted for on the basis of lies and want to vote for someone with a minimum of integrity. That's going to be very difficult given Le pen's Russian connections, Fillon's "mates" and now an "emploi fictif". Macron being an ex banker and Melonchon having all the wrong communist pals. That leaves Hamon.
So how do you leave the EU but remain a member of the single market and why would you do that?
THe EU is a single market, that is what distinguishes it from a FTA or a CU. That is it's very essence and DNA.
teamhurtmore - Member
So how do you leave the EU but remain a member of the single market and why would you do that?
I don't believe many leavers considered that question in any depth, they just got fed the 'EU is bad mkay' line so often they didn't think it through.
Accept the 4 freedoms and that negotiation ought to be easy (we didn't vote on the4 freedoms either).
Why would you do it? Better than the poor alternatives we have left ourselves with.
I'd stay in the EU and to hell with 52% in an advisory referendum. But then I'm bloody minded, don't value nationalism and regard sovereignty as something we already had in any meaningful sense.
That's very odd since it is the heart of the question. Sounds like we need another referendum doesn't if, for all the hard of thinking. Might have to phrase it differently though as they wont like that term
THM - as I recall we can agree on the "enough with the daft referenda" view. 😉
Are you trying to wind mefty up - referenda???
So you want to accept the four freedoms. How about contributions to the budget?
There is a basic problem with simple referenda in that they aren't simple.
Do you want to leave the EU - yes or no?
Easy. Except no one knows what the question means. All sorts of people think they know, but they don't all agree.
Now you improve it by turning the question round as asking what we should become -then a no vote is for the status quo.
Should we become part of the EEA instead of the EU?
But even then it's messy. The wreckers would just argue you'd asked the wrong question.
To come up with a clear sensible question is extremely difficult and then you run the risk that will be long and will be misunderstood even though it's clear.
Referenda are s bad idea in a democracy such as ours. The polarise opinion and lead to division. The rarely build consensus.