[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

First link in google:

https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/laws/bills/public/english-votes-for-english-laws/

EVEL has been in use since the end of 2015!

I think you misheard the PM ben, but thanks for the link BTW

Examples ? Interested to see how its been used to date. Bl00dy glad to hear it's been done frankly.

Ben lsitened to first 15 mins no reference there (Scottish Questions) I assume its a PMQ matter but my briwser only shows elapsed time not clock time.

Makes sense that Scotland needs it own Bill to deal with the issues which it has devolved power and hence responsibility for. Of course A50 is not one of those things. It is not approproate for the Scottish Westminster MPs to vote on legislation specific to England aand which Holrood has devolved power.

Its a throw a line to the second question after Berkow has reprimanded the SNP members for their poor behaviour.

Maybe I'm being naive here, but looking at the paper's this evening they're all jubilant that PMT MAY is saying "Give us a deal or there's no deal, we're going anyway", why the hell would anyone want to do a deal on those terms? Most people would say cheerio surely?

[img] ?oh=f3aea63bc2b691f77518c58460536e26&oe=5914C575[/img]

Also... "gives mps vote" should be followed by "as long as it isnt about brexit"

EVEL is very simple. First it only applies to whole Bills, so if a Bill has a Scottish implication, even partial, (or Welsh) it doesn't apply and the Grand Committee doesn't sit. Second, if the government decide to bifurcate the Bill so it only applies to England (or England and Wales), then by definition it doesn't effect Scotland, the Grand Committee can stop the Bill. Third, if the Bill passes through the Grand Committee, then Scottish MPs get a vote even if it doesn't apply to Scotland, as was illustrated with the Sunday Shopping Bill where it was overturned with the help of Scottish MPs.

Jimster there is mutual benefit in a deal, what May is saying is we won't accept a bad deal. The EU keep saying our deal must be made worse than current deal in order to dissuade others from leaving. IMO the threats where all coming from the EU so far, its the UK which is saying now we may just move on if the deal is a bad one.

Liam Fox says we are having "informal discussions" with 12 countries with a view to announcing formal negotiations immediately on exit in 2019

Norway
Australia
New Zealand
China
India
South Korea
GCC (Kuwait, Saudi, Bahrain, Oman, UAE, Qatar ..)

Add to that list US when Trump is inaugurated and soon Canada (imo)

what May is saying is we won't accept a bad deal.

We wont get a deal, then she will blame the EU and then we will turned into some tax haven for corporations and they will manage to care even less for people who arent rich.

They have already started to talk about "deregulating the labour market" which we all know means, less rights for workers for holidays, sick pay even wages

Love the Tony (grade a arse hole) Abbott poster, good to see the idiot is still trying to get his old job back rather than sitting on the back benches.

. The EU keep saying our deal must be made worse than current deal in order to dissuade others from leaving

Norway
Australia
New Zealand
China
India
South Korea
GCC (Kuwait, Saudi, Bahrain, Oman, UAE, Qatar ..)

Errrr, Jamby. You may want to have a brief look at why Tony Abbott is the [u]FORMER[/u] Prime Minister of Australia.

If you believe anything that useless pair of flappy ears says, let alone place trust in his knowledge, then you sir are a very unfortunate individual.

And as for Chewky:

It's good chewkw has it all sorted out. Someone we can rely on. To be fair he sounds no worse than Boris.

Are we quite sure he [i]isn't[/i] Boris?

It matters diddly skwat what deal one makes if the government has no national economic strategy. And a strategy is not free trade all round.

From sitting in another county and as a direct benefactor of free movement the migration argument and control from EU also looks nuts. The UK not being in schengen and the euro meant that we do have control of our own borders and economic policies. So many people I talk to here from other European countries think it's nuts.

And now with the threat to make the UK into a low tax economy it seems kind of obvious that we are being led to somewhere that most people in the UK do not want to go but is quite acceptable and good from the point of view of the neo liberals in charge. If the choice had been. "Do you want to leave the EU and turn into a low tax economy of the American model with a worse health care, social, education, workers rights and environmental protection?" Then it would not have got very far but we were promised the opposite.

Now because the only thing that matters now is leaving the EU then policy can be radically rewritten and dearly held principles can be disregarded for the greater good. In someways it is good to see where the Tory's red lines are.

DrJ should have added the caveat that the offer was on the basis it was reciprocated, she and other Ministers have made the offer many times including shortly after the Referendum. Also see point 6 in PM May's letter below.

Pfft. Means zero. Consider the facts. Brexit was a vote to get rid of foreigners. May was home Secretary and failed to deliver on a commitment to reduce immigration. Now she has the levers and mandate to make up for that failure. Two plus two is four. Some vague words (what rights? For whom? For how long) might as well be written on a bus for all the confidence they give.

All the EU seem to have said on British immigrants is you haven't started to leave yet, we'll talk when you have.
And on deals for the UK - club member tells club you're not doing a better deal for non-members than members now and club says no we won't be.
I fail to see any threat in either of those positions.

THM - I may have been misinterpreted. Not accusing May of bullying - not yet. Rather that bullying of the PM (not by) is a grand British tradition. Some PMs are more resilient than others. That said meekly doing the bidding of Farage and Murdoch even when (assuming she is a remainer) she knows it to be wrong doesn't make me think that May is too bully-proof. But then ultimately neither was Cameron.

GEDA, agree.

The older I get the more obvious it is that people on the whole do not understand 'unintended consequences', whether privately, politically or quite often in business.

But this is where we are, Project Fear eh?

Utter contempt for those promoting it and those who support (the majority of who didn't and haven't a clue).

Pfft. Means zero. Consider the facts. Brexit was a vote to get rid of foreigners. May was home Secretary and failed to deliver on a commitment to reduce immigration. Now she has the levers and mandate to make up for that failure. Two plus two is four. Some vague words (what rights? For whom? For how long) might as well be written on a bus for all the confidence they give.

DrJ sums it up nicely

Maybot doesn't really have a plan as such, she's just reset to her factory default and is repeating Theresa 1.0 from her home office days

The UK not being in schengen and the euro meant that we do have control of our own borders and economic policies. So many people I talk to here from other European countries think it's nuts.

It is

And now with the threat to make the UK into a low tax economy it seems kind of obvious that we are being led to somewhere that most people in the UK do not want to go

Speak for yourself

And now Toyota questiong how they can stay in post Brexshit Britain.
So far so good leavers.

Stop being negative. Who needs foreign carmakers when Rover are on top of their game. 😆

The CBI are saying (somewhat obviously) this morning that far from 'cutting red tape' as stated, the added bureaucracy involved in doing business outside the single market and customs union will add enormous costs to British business

You really couldn't make it up

Just noticed the 'Britain is back' poster above
Small print says - Tony Abbott

It's like when you see a movie advert ;
[b]5 stars, Film of the year ![/b]
(Tadcaster Gazette)

Is maybot going through her 12 PowerPoint slides at Davos right now? that'll be a laugh

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10151/lord-kerr-time-press-may-insecurity-her-hard-brexit-plan

The CBI are saying (somewhat obviously) this morning that far from 'cutting red tape' as stated, the added bureaucracy involved in doing business outside the single market and customs union will add enormous costs to British business

You really couldn't make it up

On the plus side the brexies have given up the right to bang on about the laffer curve, as they drive all those high rate taxpayers from London to Frankfurt and Paris 🙂

?

Thm curse of the last post on a page!

What bit of economics do you need explaining? 🙂

your 'interesting' interpretation of the Laffer Curve!! 😉

[But best not mention the Laffer Curve on here as it upsets those with a sensitive disposition]

Norway
Australia
New Zealand
China
India
South Korea
GCC (Kuwait, Saudi, Bahrain, Oman, UAE, Qatar ..)

How are these other countries we're doing trade talks with going to feel if they think we will become a tax haven their companies can move to?

The two don't seem compatible to me.

Well we've been reminded that the Prison camp guard's tax reforms drove the high rate payers from Paris, brexishambles promising to do even better

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKBN1520SO.
HSBC, UBS to shift 1,000 jobs each from UK in Brexit blow to London[/url]

OK but nowt directly to do with Laffer Curve - but get what you are trying to say (just!)

I think that Britain is in a stronger position for these negotiations than we imagine. European business has a huge investment in the UK in many differing areas but, a lot in transport. To limit the UK in any severe way will negatively impact these investments.

Who needs foreign carmakers when Rover are on top of their game.

Owned by an Indian company if memory serves...

Chinese

Jaguar Landrover is the Indian car manufacturer you're thinking of.

We are in an ok position - look, the grown ups know the danger of a lose:lose situation. The kids have had their fun and now they need to go and have a nap and let the grown ups sort the mess out.

They will - we have seen the more sensible ones on both sides indicating this already. Doesnt make good news or clickbait though!!

Chinese

Jaguar Landrover is the Indian car manufacturer you're thinking of.

Ah, you may well be right.

By kids THM means any of the 52% or any of the leave campaigners.

At least that's my interpretation.

[url= http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-davos-meeting-hsbc-idUKKBN1520SO ]HSBC and UBS have said they are going to move around a 1,000 jobs each from London to Paris after Brexit[/url]

The story is [url=

on Facebook[/url] at the moment and reading what people say about it is hilarious and depressing in equal measures. People complaining about the banks not showing loyalty or being "traitors" 😯 And that they will close their current accounts 🙄

the grown ups know the danger of a lose:lose situation

Do we have any? What are the signs?

And that they will close their current accounts

yeah there was a lot of that on the bbc comments (which have become hard to wade through the semi-literate brexie rants since the torygraph dropped disqus)

Loyalty? UBS is a swiss bank!! Gulliver (HSBC) will be retired by then.

Love the comments from banks "we could move" results in headlines "banks to move"

We have some mol and so do the Europeans most importantly Barnier and Merkel

I see Maybot is still hitting the meaningless soundbites out of the park at Davos...

"Change in order to conserve is more important than ever in today's geo-political environemnt, it's the principle that guides me

Any company that was planning to expand or relocate will use the Brexit scenario as a justification. It's made layoffs far easier to deal with. HSBC are still probably smarting with being caught money laundering. TBH, it makes sense to hedge your bets a bit by having sufficient EU staffing to deal with what you expect to happen post-Brexit.

Edit. Shareholders will want to see that bases are covered. But as said above, the press love to make it sound as though everyone is leaving the UK because of Brexit.

@Kimbers, I still prefer the Force, it is far more diverse than principal

As an HSBC shareholder and customer, I certainly hope that they are considering options to offset the potential/likely end of the single passport. Relying too much on "equivalence" would be dangerous IMO.

will use the Brexit scenario as a justification

Get ready for this… Brexit won't "cause" any companies to relocate, or downsize, or cut wages, or put up prices, or make portion sizes smaller…. It'll just be a handy excuse (say people who've never run a business that trades beyond the UK's borders).

[quote=GrahamS ]HSBC and UBS have said they are going to move around a 1,000 jobs each from London to Paris after Brexit
The story is trending on Facebook at the moment and reading what people say about it is hilarious and depressing in equal measures. People complaining about the banks not showing loyalty or being "traitors" And that they will close their current accounts

Little Englander's raging that the HONG KONG and SHANGHAI Banking Corporation is moving jobs to Paris 😆

Get ready for this… Brexit won't "cause" any companies to relocate, or downsize, or cut wages, or put up prices, or make portion sizes smaller…. It'll just be a handy excuse (say people who've never run a business that trades beyond the UK's borders).

Isn't denial one of the stages of regret?

Makes sense for banks to [b]consider / plan[/b] to move European focused banking to Europe [b]in the event[/b] they don't have full and [b]free[/b] access to Europe. London will remain HSBC global HQ so the high paid jobs will remain here. Employer amd employee taxes are sky high in France, any job over €1m attracts 66% employer tax in France vs 12.8% in UK. Also ironic that all the banker bashers now seem worried about losing banking jobs 🙂 These 2000 jobs are a drop in the Ocean vs the multiple 100's thousands lost in last 8 years. UK banks have been failing over themselves to exit European business in last 5 years as its so unprofitable

. Also ironic that all the banker bashers now seem worried about losing banking jobs

These 2000 jobs are a drop in the Ocean vs the multiple 100's thousands lost in last 8 years.

Jamba, what are US banks likely to do as regards their London operations now?

Jamba, what have European (and I include UK) banks being doing about their US wealth management divisions in recent years?

Keep the M&A teams here as lots of cheap assets (in £ terms) for foreigners to buy

Makes sense for banks to consider / plan to move European focused banking to Europe in the event they don't have full and free access to Europe.

Of course it does, yes. Tell that to your fellow Leavers who are frothing at the mouth over this "treachery" 🙄

Also ironic that all the banker bashers now seem worried about losing banking job

I'd say a good number of the "banker bashers" are the anti-globalist anti-establishment Leave voters, no?

See FB and other comments: lots of stuff about "we bailed them out and this is how they repay us" or "force the traitors to repay all their bail out money"

2000 jobs are a drop in the Ocean

Absolutely - it's not like the banking sector is important to the UK economy or anything. Financial Services are only like, what, 12% of our GDP and a similar percent of our annual tax receipts.

Barclays is one of the banks who has been closing heavily loss making European operations

However, the chief executive of Barclays Jes Staley told Radio 4's Today programme: "I don't believe that the European financial centre will leave the City of London.

"I think the UK will continue to be the financial lungs for Europe. We may have to move certain activities... but I think it's going to be at the margin and will be manageable."

So the banking sector is finished? Best to get rid of the dregs?
How does getting rid of jobs from the UK make the UK better? I thought Brexit would make the UK somewhere everyone wanted to be. You know your logic seems impeccable some days

Also ironic that all the banker bashers now seem worried about losing banking job

You said it yourself. The highest-paid jobs - you know, the people who were probably causal in the economic crash - will be safe. It's the ones at the bottom who will be hit hardest. Again.

The question stands Jamby

Good luck with that, so do most of the ones I've asked.

and which group voted leave cougs?

The question stands Jamby

Are you new round here?

Good luck with that, so do most of the ones I've asked.

and which group voted leave cougs?

Group? Oh, of those in the banking profession you mean? I expect some voted leave and some voted remain, like any other demographic. What that split was I've absolutely no idea beyond lazy generalisations, have you?

I think the UK/US piece will stay together. I wonder if the US will ensure/play a part in ensuring UK gets a good Brexit deal? Obviously at a cost. Probably a new Trump London HQ or something. I was suspicious of the Mexico border tax announcement to Eu being close to the announcements from May about Brexit and a US trade deal (BJ). [url= http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-bmw-idUKKBN14Z0XY ]Source[/url]

I reckon this might go away if Germany toes a fair line with the UK. Not forgetting that a large chunk of the UK travel is German owned and, we buy a lot of their cars.

This is old but very relevant; https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/12/rail-privatisation-dutch-and-german-companies-took-uk-for-ride

"The latest example last week saw Abellio, a unit of the Dutch national rail operator, win the 10-year ScotRail franchise for running train services in Scotland. Arriva, which is owned by Germany’s Deutsche Bahn, runs five UK rail contracts, including CrossCountry and Arriva Trains Wales, while Keolis, controlled by the French state rail company SNCF, is the joint operator of four franchises, including Southeastern and London Midland. The latter is also shortlisted for the London-to-Edinburgh east coast route in a joint bid with SNCF-backed Eurostar.

For a snapshot of how a public asset has inadvertently transferred profit to taxpayers elsewhere, it is worth looking at a review of the industry’s 2013 finances published by the Office of Rail Regulation. Northern Rail, a joint venture between Serco and Abellio, paid £36m in dividends to its owners after receiving government subsidies totalling £713m. Transpennine returned £21m in dividends to owners FirstGroup and Keolis, having received £52m from the government, which also paid £145m in track grants."

well let's start with those in professional occupations?

A: Second biggest Remainers (after those with degrees)

Yes it's an interesting demonstration of the efficiency of nationalised public transport, just a shame it's not owned by our nation.

well let's start with those in professional occupations?

A: Second biggest Remainers (after those with degrees)

Assuming banking followed the same trend, sure. This is what I was alluding to with "generalisations" - it's a plausible scenario, likely even, but for an individual employment sector I'm guessing at best.

"Educated people voted remain" isn't exactly news. So you're saying those who voted remain are contemplating taking the money and running before the arse falls out of the economy any further, whereas those who voted leave will be on the sticky end. Have I completely misunderstood what you're getting at here?

My point is that if the EU/UK split is not friendly, these contracts for planes, trains, cars could easily go to the US and Asian businesses, that would hurt major players in the EU. I think we will get a good deal which is why May is being quite bullish

I think we will get a good deal which is why May is being quite bullish

It is in everyone interest to get a good deal, UK and Europe.

Possible Cougs - but doesnt matter - i was just suggesting that sadly many/some/a few of those who voted to Leave are (among) those who are likely to be hit hardest as a result.

A sad irony - nothing more.

In contrast the professionals and educated - to use sweeping generalisations! - generally understood what is good for them.

cchris2lou - Member
It is in everyone interest to get a good deal, UK and Europe.

My point is that if the EU/UK split is not friendly, these contracts for planes, trains, cars could easily go to the US and Asian businesses, that would hurt major players in the EU.

Who knows, they could even by run by the government and return a profit for the taxpayer

My point is that if the EU/UK split is not friendly, these contracts for planes, trains, cars could easily go to the US and Asian businesses, that would hurt major players in the EU. I think we will get a good deal which is why May is being quite bullish

First of all the 2 years of A50 negotiations arent about trade, they are about settling the divorce bill, May will have to balance paying what teh EU feel we owe with keeping our xenophobic right wing press happy - 😯
That alone is going to be an incredibly tough job

after all that we have to get 27 nations to agree a trade deal that benfits us all

May wants a new trade deal by 2019 after that

“no deal would be better than a bad deal”

with our huge disadvantages of lack of trade negotiators and lawyers and Johnson, Farage and Gove running around the world trying to their best to offend as many Europeans as possible, Maybot is looking naive rather than bullish

No it's not particularly in the EU's interests for the UK to get a good deal. It's in their interests for the EU to get a good deal politically speaking and a key component of that is to discourage anyone else from leaving [i]even if if costs them in purely economic terms[/i]...

i was just suggesting that sadly many/some/a few of those who voted to Leave are (among) those who are likely to be hit hardest as a result

I sincerely hope so.

Though what the dimwits will do when they realise that they still haven't got a job/council house/hospital bed is another question. Perhaps at that point endlessly repeating "brexit means brexit" and calling the French Nazis will be seen as an electoral liability (though I wouldn't put it past the British voter to still not get a clue - again).

First of all the 2 years of A50 negotiations arent about trade,

😯

They have had me fooled then.

i was just suggesting that sadly many/some/a few of those who voted to Leave are (among) those who are likely to be hit hardest as a result.

A sad irony - nothing more.

Ah right, I'm with you now. Yes, no arguments here. "Project Fear," hmm.

I sincerely hope so.

Ouch

Though what the dimwits will do when they realise that they still haven't got a job/council house/hospital bed is another question.

Ask the rest of us to pay higher taxes?

It's in their interests for the EU to get a good deal politically speaking and a key component of that is to discourage anyone else from leaving even if if costs them in purely economic terms...

apparently so, thm. The process of leaving is not the arrangement of a new trade deal, but rather the untying of the numerous entanglements that we currently have. Such as the "negotiating capital" of the thousands of multinational families, EU imigrants and UK expats, the new hard border in Ireland, and whether we can fly planes, among other things.

Not project fear just common sense/law of unintended consequences

- anyway, I think that we are slightly misunderstanding each other, so will park this one cougs.

mike, I think it's clear enough who has all the cards, but it's also worth pointing out that the EU can't really afford to be generous to us even if they thought it was economically advantageous for them.