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[quote=mefty ]There are too many unknowns, both known ones and unknown ones, for anyone to have a realistic handle on that - including Cambridge academics.
Did you read their report, or are you just guessing?
May smashed it. Word perfect.
As Richard King from Sky tweeted smart to have pre-released key elements as the £ went up as she spoke.
@aracer, a bit tongue in cheek of course 🙂
@Graham well that's exactly what I always said and ditto the Leave Campaign. I don't think anyone on the Leave side is against global trade opportunities. There are plenty of Remainers who try and paint Leavers that way
Well I'm no fan of May or the Tories, but I thought it was quite a sensible well presented speech. That does't make me agree with it.
She made quite a big play about what we have to offer in terms of security, which sounds to me as though that 350m a week won't be going to the NHS (!) but to Trident and the military.
The aim is to complete Brexir discussions in 2 years but then "phase in" changes. I wonder how long that will drag on? The votes in the 2 houses could (will?) give rise and plenty of amendments.
But what I can't agree with at all is her assertion that the country is becoming united behind Brexit. That is utter nonsense.
THM - at the end I think.
She says the UK will leave the single market
UK wants bespoke free trade deal with the EU
MPs and peers to get vote on final Brexit deal
The UK is to start official process of leaving in EU in March
Trump - not at the back of the QUEUE but front of the LINE (again showing that Obama's speech was a setup by Cameron)
That's just bollocks. I was just on a conference call with non-English speakers and deliberately chose language to match the understanding of my audience. If i was in America, I'd happily ask someone if this is the end of the 'line' to make myself understood.
Tariff-free trade with the EU
Yeah, can see the EU agreeing to that one for starters.
Does Jo Coburn not understand the difference between "membership of" and "access to"?
Fallon talking nonsense now with theft of democracy - wants another referendum. Do people never learn? Imagine a referendum question covering the details of a compromise deal. Seems like he needs to take 10 deep breaths
[quote=jambalaya ]I don't think anyone on the Leave side is against global trade opportunities.
Interesting that you speak for all of them. Do we need to remind you again who you're in bed with?
There's no way May would have offered a vote if she thought she could have won at Court, ergo: she had doubts.
To play this as some kind of Churchillian master stroke is just a bit pathetic, really.
Remainer on Sky News very positive after the speech. Excited by the opportunities.
@Graham well that's exactly what I always said and ditto the Leave Campaign. I don't think anyone on the Leave side is against global trade opportunities. There are plenty of Remainers who try and paint Leavers that way
So do you reckon that the current analysis is wrong jamba?
(i.e. that Brexit and Trump votes were driven by a growing anti-globalisation movement of people who feel they have somehow missed out or been left behind on the benefits of globalisation)
[b]Or[/b] do you think that analysis is correct, but those voters are going to get the opposite of what they voted for?
[b]Or[/b] is a "Global Britain" seeking trade deals, focusing globally, and expanding across the world, a different thing from "globalisation"?
But what I can't agree with at all is her assertion that the country is becoming united behind Brexit. That is utter nonsense.
indeed, I believe she labelled me a 'citizen of knowhere'
she can kiss my butt 🙂
[quote=teamhurtmore ]Does Jo Coburn not understand the difference between "membership of" and "access to"?
Can we have a clue? Does one result in "not leaving the EU at all" (er, Norway)?
Imagine a referendum question covering the details of a compromise deal.
Yeah, what a ridiculous idea to have a referendum on something people can't possibly be expected to understand.
I was a remainer but still (reluctantly) impressed by the speech esp in relation to the claptrap that other politicians have come up with.
Nothing new. Soft FTA, but with enough areas of compromise dangled in front of our European friends. So looks like we are straddled between FTA (largely) and a CU. if you fall for the immigration is bad claptrap, then that is not a bad outcome. I would prefer FOM, so a qualified well done with making a good job of a bad lot. That's all that can be asked for now.
Interesting point raised on 5 live was when the final deal is put before Parliament and they vote against it what happens then?
On another point, my MD is based in Belgium and the general consensus is "It ain't going to be pretty"
Trump - not at the back of the QUEUE but front of the LINE (again showing that Obama's speech was a setup by Cameron)
is that a fact??
The Odious Michael Gove:
"And now we're at the front of the queue ?"
The Deplorable Donald Trump
😯"I think you're doing great, I think Its going to be great"
I think TM needs to stop saying "want" like a petulant child. She should replace want with "NEED".
That would at least signal our seriousness to the situation.
Given the post-truth phase of politics we seem to be in at the moment, I prefer to get my news from Daily Mash and similar sites as it's usually more accurate...
[i]Interesting point raised on 5 live was when the final deal is put before Parliament and they vote against it what happens then?[/I]
The same as when you mention to you wife you'd like a new car, and she suggests otherwise - and then walks outside to see it parked on the drive?
Wow - in that latest Daily Mash one, they appear to have almost given up trying to make it appear satirical.
Interesting point raised on 5 live was when the final deal is put before Parliament and they vote against it what happens then?
We drop out of the EU and default to WTO relationship at best. It's not a second referendum, it will be: "Well this is best we could come up with - do you want this or would you prefer WTO rules (which we have done no planning for)". The vote will pass overwhelmingly. And even if it didn't we'll still leave as once article 50 is triggered it's inevitable.
Will someone turn out the lights in the UK on the way out.
But I thought Jambalaya, you wanted the Exit as possible?
A bit the opposite?
We drop out of the EU and default to WTO relationship at best. It's not a second referendum, it will be: "Well this is best we could come up with - do you want this or would you prefer WTO rules (which we'll have done no planning for)". The vote will pass overwhelmingly. And even if it didn't we'll still leave as once article 50 is triggered it's inevitable.Will someone turn out the lights in the UK on the way out.
Doesn't that depend on the outcome of one of the court cases. Is article 50 reversable or not?
certainly seems to be one of the governments arguments in a different case.
Labour spokesperson on radio4 claims that May just ruled out a hard Brexit and is doing what Labour have been calling for.
Waste of space.
[i]We drop out of the EU and default to WTO relationship at best[/I]
No, you can't just default to WTO, you need to apply (and be accepted).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Organization
Accession and membershipMain article: World Trade Organization accession and membership
The process of becoming a WTO member is unique to each applicant country, and the terms of accession are dependent upon the country's stage of economic development and current trade regime. The process takes about five years, on average, but it can last longer if the country is less than fully committed to the process or if political issues interfere. The shortest accession negotiation was that of the Kyrgyz Republic, while the longest was that of Russia, which, having first applied to join GATT in 1993, was approved for membership in December 2011 and became a WTO member on 22 August 2012. Kazakhstan also had a long accession negotiation process. The Working Party on the Accession of Kazakhstan was established in 1996 and was approved for membership in 2015. The second longest was that of Vanuatu, whose Working Party on the Accession of Vanuatu was established on 11 July 1995. After a final meeting of the Working Party in October 2001, Vanuatu requested more time to consider its accession terms. In 2008, it indicated its interest to resume and conclude its WTO accession. The Working Party on the Accession of Vanuatu was reconvened informally on 4 April 2011 to discuss Vanuatu's future WTO membership. The re-convened Working Party completed its mandate on 2 May 2011. The General Council formally approved the Accession Package of Vanuatu on 26 October 2011. On 24 August 2012, the WTO welcomed Vanuatu as its 157th member. An offer of accession is only given once consensus is reached among interested parties.
It remains overwhelmingly and compellingly in Britain’s national interest that the EU should succeed.
I wonder what the best way of ensuring that happens might be. Hang on, I think I've just had an idea...
We drop out of the EU and default to WTO relationship at bestNo, you can't just default to WTO, you need to apply (and be accepted).
That was my point, if they're offering a vote, one presumes there will be a choice. There is a chance they'll drop to WTO and have done the pre-work, but I suspect it'll be 'vote for this or don't and get something as yet undefined'.
I can't believe they would give a vote on something where they have no idea what's going to happen for one of the options.
Remainer on Sky News very positive after the speech. Excited by the opportunities.
Yeah, me too - really excited by the prospect of MrsJ being only able to chat to me and her daughter by Skype. Hooray!!!!! Well done, Brexshitters!!!
kelvin - MemberLabour spokesperson on radio4 claims that May just ruled out a hard Brexit and is doing what Labour have been calling for.
Waste of space.
Who is this 'Labour' you speak of?
But seriously, has the media decided to boycott Labour or have they closed shop?
They're snoozing and May is cleaning up - she's putting the final nails into UKIPs coffin - even if she has to offer Farage a gong or a job so he doesn't leap out of the woodwork again. Labour doesn't appear to have much of a voice and the Liberals will be lucky to maintain a budget to keep them in staples till 2020.
She might as well call a snap election now - they'll take England by a landslide, Scotland will re-elect SNP, lord only knows what we'll do in Wales - Plaid will do well on a 20% turnout.
I did quite like these bits:
"That is why I have said before - and will continue to say - that every stray word and every hyped up media report is going to make it harder for us to get the right deal for Britain."
"So however frustrating some people find it, the Government will not be pressured into saying more than I believe it is in our national interest to say. Because it is not my job to fill column inches with daily updates, but to get the right deal for Britain. And that is what I intend to do".
I ca only hope that really means **** off Murdock.
I can't believe they would give a vote on something where they have no idea what's going to happen for one of the options.
😀
Looks like we're on our way to being a full on tax haven/unregulated corporatist neoliberal nirvana then?
Something to look forward too eh?
[img] 
[/img]
I like many Remain voters felt the risk wasn't worth taking - better the devil you know. Do I think we will be in a better position after leaving, no idea. There are too many unknowns, both known ones and unknown ones, for anyone to have a realistic handle on that - including Cambridge academics. However, I think it is narrow minded to say we can't end up in a better position, but there is no certainty we will. The only thing I am sure of is that people will still be arguing about it in 30 years.
Now you need to seriously get off this thread...talking sense and bringing rational thinking to the infighting.
Looks like we're on our way to being a full on tax haven/unregulated corporatist neoliberal nirvana then?
Unless your resident here obviously.
Did you read their report, or are you just guessing?
No the authors are - but at least they are well educated and honest about it.
We have arbitrarily assumed a loss of 10% of EU
markets, i.e. around one sixth of that calculated by the Treasury, although our view
is that even this may be a larger loss than actually materialises. We also assume
that these market losses are offset by gains in non-EU markets over a 20 year
period. Again this assumption may be overly pessimistic.
As I said there are a lot of unknowns.
watching EU science funding opportunities dry up, I can say there are a few 'knowns'
kimbers - Memberwatching EU science funding opportunities dry up...
yup, it's a crap time to be working in R&D.
it's a good job we're not trying to rebuild a manufacturing economy...
[quote=kimbers ]watching EU science funding opportunities dry up, I can say there are a few 'knowns'
I am seeing the ladders being pulled up almost everywhere...
Is this you Kimbers ?
( and I don't mean the bloke with the wig showing up the other one for being very partial with the truth )
no, i have a wig 😛
No, you can't just default to WTO, you need to apply (and be accepted).
We are already a member and will not need to accede - [url= http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brexit-unlikely-disrupt-uk-trade-says-wto-director-general-1588422 ]the Director General of the WTO has been clear on this[/url] - he was also clear we will need to renegotiate the terms of our membership.
he was also clear we will need to renegotiate the terms of our membership.
can we start negotiations b4 the 2 year deadline or is it like other trade deals?
[i]he was also clear we will need to renegotiate the terms of our membership.[/I]
"The UK is a member of the WTO today, it will continue to be a member tomorrow. There will be no discontinuity in membership. They have to renegotiate [terms of their membership] but that doesn't mean they are not members."
Like still paying gym membership fees but we've had to give up our locker? 😉
agree with cleggy too
its one last kick in the nuts from the baby boomers
The prime minister has pledged to act in the interests of the young and future generations. Yet she has now set herself on a course which emphatically rejects what the overwhelming majority of young voters said they wanted in the Brexit referendum. Claiming to represent the interests of the young whilst pursuing a hard Brexit which will damage their interests will only deepen the generational divide highlighted by the Brexit referendum. This speech is a kick in the teeth for the youth of Britain."
Can you imagine.. not training enough scientists, and then letting the ones we do have end up serving coffee or flipping burgers cos there's no funding for them to do anything..
Hope this doesn't happen. Let's hope this bollocks ends up forcing the government to do its job properly after all these years.
A Tory government, who's more barking mad right-wing elements are already dictating policy, given a blank sheet of paper to effectively re-write the constitution when all those EU regulations cease to apply?
With an 'opposition' in name only, totally unfit for purpose?
I'm sure it'all all be fine, and they'll base all decisions on what's in the best interests of us all, and not just big business and the rich
mefty and what happens in the period when there are no agreed WTO terms?
On day one we may be members but there is no agreement therefore are we actually members?
Also minor details, Argentina and the Falklands, we won't accept the negotiations unless you give us access to the Falklands and a royalty on all oil exploration....
Just business after all.
Hope this doesn't happen. Let's hope this bollocks ends up forcing the government to do its job properly after all these years.
1970's the UK failed then, i see no improvement in quality of leadership since then, so why expect better. Yes you can hope but hope doesn't keep the IMF from the door.
[quote=molgrips ]
Hope this doesn't happen. Let's hope this bollocks ends up forcing the government to do its job properly after all these years.
We get the politicians we deserve 🙁
She might as well call a snap election now - they'll take England by a landslide, Scotland will re-elect SNP, lord only knows what we'll do in Wales - Plaid will do well on a 20% turnout.
Excellent insight there. Thankfully offering opinions on stuff we have no idea about is no longer a problem in this political age.......
http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN06111
1970's the UK failed then, i see no improvement in quality of leadership since then, so why expect better.
Because in the 1970s, the 1970s hadn't happened. Nor had Thatcher or Blair. Now they have.
But why bring it up? I'm not suggesting renatinalising everything am I? I'm just talking about the government actually investing strategically in industry and development.
theotherjonv - MemberShe might as well call a snap election now - they'll take England by a landslide, Scotland will re-elect SNP, lord only knows what we'll do in Wales - Plaid will do well on a 20% turnout.
Excellent insight there. Thankfully offering opinions on stuff we have no idea about is no longer a problem in this political age.......
http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN06111
Are you saying that the people who decided to make a law that says they have to have fixed term governments, can't make another one that says the opposite now they're stronger in goverment?
Can you imagine.. not training enough scientists, and then letting the ones we do have end up serving coffee or flipping burgers cos [s]there's no funding for them to do anything..[/s] the Uni's have packed themselves with cheaper EU staff
For too long British Uni's have failed to invest in training for their own (UK) students and relied on a steady stream of cheap imports. This hopefully make Uni's adapt to the new environment and will allow UK students more of a chance.
I voted remain but I'm not seeing the funding apocalypse personally, doesnt EU funding cover a smallish fraction in reality? I read around 9.7 percent last time.
For too long British Uni's have failed to invest in training for their own (UK) students and relied on a steady stream of cheap imports. This hopefully make Uni's adapt to the new environment and will allow UK students more of a chance.
What do you think happens when the non-UK students (who pay handsomely for the privilege) stop attending UK Universities?
Clue: It won't mean more places for UK students...
For too long British Uni's have failed to invest in training for their own (UK) students
On casual discussion with some engineering uni professor/tutor type, it was suggested the unis rely on the furen students to stay afloat.
Still, taking paying students is the way forward. That way if the students underperform the uni's will kick them off the course as they are well motived to only ensure the good students stay on the course and get qualifications.
Have I got that wrong? I have, haven't I?
EU students pay little into Uni's, it isfrom elsewhere where the money is to be made, hence, focus on Asia, and Middle East for recruitment.
However, my point was more around the jump from student to Researcher, for too long the Uni's have taken on cheaper EU researchers as they can pay them less than the UK equivalent and complain that the EU ones are better qualified, while completely ignoring they were responsible for educating their own.
Tom_W1987 - Member
I voted remain but I'm not seeing the funding apocalypse personally, doesnt EU funding cover a smallish fraction in reality? I read around 9.7 percent last time.
10-20% iirc but even at the lower end- still 1 in 10 jobs!
but I have friends at the EBI and sanger who are very worried as they were Horizon 2020 funded
The Crick has just opened too, they were planning on 20-30% EU funding! a lot of empty labs there at the moment
EU students pay little into Uni's, it isfrom elsewhere where the money is to be made, hence, focus on Asia, and Middle East for recruitment.
Indeed the focus is shifting to higher fee paying asian and middle eastern students to compensate for the lost EU revenue.
As someone who supervises students, give me an EU or UK student who got their place on merit over a non-eu student who has bought their place, it makes my job much less painful
However, my point was more around the jump from student to Researcher, for too long the Uni's have taken on cheaper EU researchers as they can pay them less than the UK equivalent and complain that the EU ones are better qualified, while completely ignoring they were responsible for educating their own.
IME thats bobbins, PIs want the best people for the job, wherever they come from, science pay is poor, that is hardly the fault of the EU, when our own government invests so little
flipping burgers cos .... the Uni's have packed themselves with cheaper EU staff
Hang on. Eastern European fruit pickers are undercutting locals because they can be bussed over cheaply. And possibly plumbers, who can control their own prices. But are you suggesting Unis are paying Eastern European postgrads and teachers less than British ones? Even though they will be living in the UK?
Bit of a bombshell if true, don't you think?
Are you saying that the people who decided to make a law that says they have to have fixed term governments, can't make another one that says the opposite now they're stronger in goverment?
Broadly, yes.
In theory, everything's possible, but 1/ it wouldn't be a snap election, it would have to follow either a dissolution vote of some sort which ain't going to happen mid-Brexit (certainly not for tactical reasons, depending on how things go in the next few months it could yet go completely tits up where a no-confidence is a possibility) or a vote to change the legislation and 2/ whether 'stronger' or not they don't have sufficient majority to be confident they'd get the legislation changed anyway.
However, my point was more around the jump from student to Researcher, for too long the Uni's have taken on cheaper EU researchers as they can pay them less than the UK equivalent and complain that the EU ones are better qualified, while completely ignoring they were responsible for educating their own.
Odd - none of the three universities I and my girlfriend have worked in as researchers and/or lecturers (not to mention the many more we have applied for jobs at) have shown any evidence of operating this way... They tend to be very transparent about salary levels, particularly for entry-level posts.
However, my point was more around the jump from student to Researcher, for too long the Uni's have taken on cheaper EU researchers as they can pay them less than the UK equivalent and complain that the EU ones are better qualified, while completely ignoring they were responsible for educating their own.
Usual pile of Brexit sh1te. What else did you expect?
I remain very confused.
We have had lots of articles like this over the past seven months:
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/26/brexit-is-the-rejection-of-globalisation ]Brexit is a rejection of globalisation (Guardian, June 2016)[/url]
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/28/era-globalisation-brexit-eu-britain-economic-frustration ]Globalisation as we know it is over – and Brexit is the biggest sign yet (Guardian, July 2016)[/url]
[url= http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/john-mills-globalisation-backlash-was-behind-donald-trump-victory-brexit-vote-1591456 ]Globalisation backlash was behind Donald Trump victory and Brexit vote (IB Times, Nov 2016)[/url]
[url= http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-is-start-of-anti-globalisation-revolt-says-gloomy-imf-hzfmqrhqc ]Brexit is start of anti-globalisation revolt says gloomy IMF (The Times, Oct 2016)[/url]
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/globalisation-poll-low-wages-inequality-technology-comres-a7467491.html ]Brexit Britain turns against globalisation, blaming it for low UK wages (Independent, Dec 2016)[/url]
[url= http://www.wsj.com/articles/trumps-win-brexit-vote-stem-from-mishandling-of-globalization-obama-says-1479306771 ]Trump’s Win, Brexit Vote Stem From Mishandling of Globalization, Obama Says (Wall Street Journal, Nov 2016)[/url]
[url= https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/26/business/economy/for-america-brexit-may-be-a-warning-of-globalizations-limits.html ]"Brexit" in America: A Warning Shot Against Globalization (NY Times, June 2016)[/url]
etc etc
So if it was all a vote against globalisation then why is Theresa May stood at a lectern signed "A Global Britain" saying:
I want us to be a truly [b]Global Britain[/b] - the best friend and neighbour to our European partners, but a country that reaches beyond the borders of Europe too.
...
A great, [b]global[/b] trading nation that is respected around the world and strong, confident and united at home.
...
June the 23rd was not the moment Britain chose to step back from the world. It was the moment we chose to build a truly [b]Global Britain[/b].
...
It was a vote to restore, as we see it, our parliamentary democracy, national self-determination, and to become [b]even more global and internationalist[/b] in action and in spirit.
...
the great prize for this country - the opportunity ahead - is to use this moment to build [b]a truly Global Britain[/b]. A country that reaches out to old friends and new allies alike. [b]A great, global, trading nation.[/b] And one of the firmest advocates for [b]free trade anywhere in the world[/b].
...
A [b]Global Britain[/b] must be free to strike trade agreements with countries from outside the European Union too.
...
it is time for Britain to get out into the world and rediscover its role as [b]a great, global, trading nation[/b].
...
we are [b]a great, global nation[/b] with so much to offer Europe and so much to offer the world.
...
Not merely forming a new partnership with Europe, but building a stronger, fairer, [b]more Global[/b] Britain too.
That's a whole lot of "globals" for someone implementing the result of a vote against globalisation. 😕
If anything it sounds like more globalisation, not less.
I'm confused.
Time to start lobbying MPs to vote against the final deal I think.
However, my point was more around the jump from student to Researcher, for too long the Uni's have taken on cheaper EU researchers as they can pay them less than the UK equivalent
You mean that I can pay my EU postdocs less than my UK ones? I never knew that. I'd best send an email to HR complaining that they haven't being doing their job properly by assigning researchers jobs to nationally set and agreed salary scales regardless of the employees origin or nationality.
and complain that the EU ones are better qualified,
The EU is a big place. At the moment we get lots of people wanting to come here because much of the UK's science is better than the rest of Europe. In effect we get the pick of the cream from the entire EU. So it isn't that ALL EU researchers are better qualified, it is just the ones that want to come here. And they are largely the reason why UK science is so much better than it would be if we had to rely solely on homegrown researchers.
while completely ignoring they were responsible for educating their own
I keep trying to write an answer to this but it just turns into an angry rant about, well almost everything to do with society's expectation that education is all about the teachers. People have to be willing to be taught and able to learn too. Precious few students I meet have what is truly required to go all the way. Those we do find we encourage and nurture, but there just aren't enough in the UK to fulfill requirements.
So, she wanted to negotiate access to the single market and has been told to do one. It comes out now that this was part of the plan what didn't exist until today. 😕
Nutter.
Time to start lobbying MPs to vote against the final deal I think.
That vote will be a sham.
It will be a "final deal or WTO" rubber stamping of the deal.
MPs, now they have a broad outline of where the government are going, need to act now.
Time to start lobbying MPs to vote against the final deal I think.
Don't think this will have an effect. I wrote to my Dorking MP Paul Beresford and he said he will vote for the exit because it is the will of the people. Odd given his constituents voted Remain. He said most MPs will vote as he does.
Don't think this will have an effect. I wrote to my Dorking MP Paul Beresford and he said he will vote for the exit because it is the will of the people. Odd given his constituents voted Remain. He said most MPs will vote as he does.
Rally the troops then, as soon as he sees that the people who voted him into his current job are letting him know that they won't be giving him the job next time and I'm sure he'll have a moment of clarity.
Nope, because by the next GE there will no point voting out MPs because of their views on our membership of any European institution, we'll be out of the lot.
We're in democratic limbo.
There is no way to make MPs do their job between now and our exit, we are relying on them choosing to do so.
We are leaving the EU. That is going to change. The only variable is what are the new terms of access to the single market
At the moment, "we" are looking for a bespoke deal based on a soft FTA
You mean that I can pay my EU postdocs less than my UK ones?
No but because you have cheap pool of labour the pay is artificially held down, and doesn't match what a UK PhD student will get by moving outside of academia. The Uni's model to is very similar to the Premier League, why develop your own talent when you can buy experienced, cheaper talent from elsewhere?
Incidentally Spain recognised their academic brain drain problem long ago and had grants to attract the best Spanish researchers back home.
. The Uni's model to is very similar to the Premier League, why develop your own talent when you can buy experienced, cheaper talent from elsewhere??
Just repeating the same made up statement doesn't make it correct.
Our lab has people from, Wales, England,China, America, Germany, Italy, Scotland, France etc
Should we only be hiring British staff?
So, wages are kept low in the Premier League because clubs can employ foreign players?
Well I am out.. not prepared to support this madness. Sell house, sell business, cash in pensions and I am sure some warm tolerant country will take me in