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Bland Centralist politics defines us
Actually said on a thread about the EU Referendum result!!!!!!
How bland and predictable the EU Referendum result was eh ? 😆
Indeed, we have to make a drama over trade arrangements. Oh and the fact that there are more xenophobes in the UK that we thought. QED.
Centrist.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/15/uk-snubs-middle-east-peace-summit-in-paris-to-keep-trump-onside
More pathetic grovelling. Is this really what "take back control" looks like? Just when you think you can't be any more ashamed to be British!
Can we deport the xenophobes?
Suppose not. Who'd have them?
😉
We can export our construction workers to Poland - there must be a shortage there now.
More pathetic grovelling. Is this really what "take back control" looks like? Just when you think you can't be any more ashamed to be British!
It's nothing new, it's the "Special Relationship" as defined by Winston Churchill.....they tell us what to do and we happily do what they tell us.
It's very special......the United States usually has to rely on its economic and military strength to subjugate a country. But not in the case of Great Britain.
they tell us what to do and we happily do what they tell us.
But they haven't even told us yet! It's like a beaten dog that cowers even before you raise a stick 🙁
We can export our construction workers to Poland - there must be a shortage there now.
A) only until we leave
B) what's the Polish for "Auf Wiedersehen, Pet"?
I tried to look but screen too fussy on my phone! 😉
Listened to so many people over the years complaining about what a shithole Britain is.
Never thought I'd ever be agreeing with them.
Edit: but then again there's the 48?.. that May is ignoring. She needs to be ****ing locked up, seriously.
I heard a rumour on here, if you voted remain you were automatically 'intelligent'
Some of you seem intent on proving that rumour to be a rather big pile of horse shit. 😆
Listened to so many people over the years complaining about what a shithole Britain is.
and why is that? Brussels or Westminster????
Hence why the whole brexit thing is merely a distraction and will come back and bite the politicians when things don't get better.
Immigration is key to Brexshit/populism which is why current trends are so dangerous. Have we forgotten history?
We have forgotten or become disconnected by a generation. I would like you all to have a listen to something. Human Rights lawyer Phillipe Sands on Radio 3's Private Passions today. No need to listen to it all but his comments from about 37 minutes in. It sums up my feelings as the son of parents (1 English and 1 German) who lived through the 30s.http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b088j46j
and why is that?
Mostly complaining about ignorant right wing xenophobes inhabiting the place.
Hmm. Just thinking about this. If lots of Tory MPs are favour of a softer Brexit, could there be a leadership challenge?
48% of what mol?
And more ironically...
Apparently Brexit may over time affect the viability of the state pension and make us more like Greece, Italy and Spain. Due to demographic effects on the economy, not trade or employment effects. Interesting.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jan/15/hard-brexit-means-retiring-later-britons-warned?CMP=oth_b-aplnews_d-2
Nice numbers but nothing new in the idea. Hope the xenophobes are not reliant on a state pension!
More pathetic grovelling. Is this really what "take back control" looks like? Just when you think you can't be any more ashamed to be British!
Quite well observed:
“In those days Great Britain was less wealthy than it is now, but it was also less complacent, and considerably less useless. It had a sense of humanitarian responsibility and a myth of its own importance that was quixotically true and universally accepted merely because it believed in it, and said so in a voice loud enough for foreigners to understand. It had not yet acquired the schoolboy habit of waiting for months for permission from Washington before it clambered out of its post-imperial bed, put on its boots, made a sugary cup of tea, and ventured through the door.”
If lots of Tory MPs are favour of a softer Brexit, could there be a leadership challenge?
Unlikely. May's immigration agenda is catnip to Tory activists, members and core voters, and is also the best weapon to win over both UKIP and northern Labour voters.
Could see yet more Tory MPs quietly give up (and mostly be replaced by new Tory MPs at byelections). LibDems might snatch a few, but not enough to put May's government at risk.
I heard a rumour on here, if you voted remain you were automatically 'intelligent'
Bullshit.
Some of you seem intent on proving that rumour to be a rather big pile of horse shit.
Oh, I see, you made the bullshit comment just so that you could prove yourself right… carry on as you were…
theocb - MemberI heard a rumour on here, if you voted remain you were automatically 'intelligent'
I heard a rumour, that if you argued in favour of leave you most likely made stuff up, like rumours.
I made a cod's of the quotes when I posted this earlier, but I really do think you should listen. So, apologies for the double post, but here it is again.
I would like you all to have a listen to something. Human Rights lawyer Phillipe Sands on Radio 3's Private Passions today. No need to listen to it all but his comments from about 37 minutes in. It sums up my feelings as the son of parents (1 English and 1 German) who lived through the 30s.We have forgotten or become disconnected by a generation.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b088j46j
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jan/15/brexit-border-would-make-sitting-ducks-of-northern-ireland-police
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jan/15/hard-brexit-means-retiring-later-britons-warned
the good news keeps on coming. At least they are starting to acknowledge the non retired in the UK are going to die at work and never retire, nice to have a bit of honesty come out.
😀
Oh sorry chaps, did I miss you calling out the BS/the insults/the hypocritical nonsense/the opinion based horse shit from those who suit your own bias?
A quick defense to my post but happy to let the constant 'leavers are ignorant racists' type stuff keep on keeping on
Come on now, it's not cool to be a hypocrite you know. Just because you have a point of view doesn't mean you can't be fair minded as well as exceptionally intelligent.
theocb, what do you gain by leaving that was not possible whilst in the EU? How do we get a better position than we were in?
IF you can come up with a reasoned response i won't add you to the list of idiots that have made life harder, more expensive, and screwed up options for a large number of people.
Oh and i won't expect you to buy me a new UK passport when in two years my current one becomes invalid, i won't expect you to pay for a new driving licence, a new number plate etc etc etc.
I won't hold it against you when duty free limits are re instated and you can only bring back a couple of bottles of wine. etc etc
[I]Hmm. Just thinking about this. If lots of Tory MPs are favour of a softer Brexit, could there be a leadership challenge? [/I]
Doubt it, they're politicians and will only challenge her if they think they won't be in power, the state if the country will be a secondary concern.
'Those idiots' are you and you and you. Don't you understand how this works.
'We' have made things complicated. Stop passing the blame and start looking in the mirror.
'Those idiots' are you and you and you. Don't you understand how this works.
'We' have made things complicated. Stop passing the blame and start looking in the mirror.
No one was expecting an intelligent reply now were they?
No one was expecting an intelligent reply now were they?
There is always hope,
What do you gain by leaving that was not possible whilst in the EU?
How is this so a hard question to answer?
Unlikely. May's immigration agenda is catnip to Tory activists, members and core voters, and is also the best weapon to win over both UKIP and northern Labour voters.
A point I've made before. They will plough on with whatever approach keeps them in power regardless of the damage it will do. Absolutely terrifying.
Things like this should not be decided by one party. It needs to be a much more transparent and collaborative process. Sadly that'll never happen
It needs to be a much more transparent and collaborative process. Sadly that'll never happen
The AV referendum was the one chance we had of changing the voting system, it may have been crap but by rejecting it i think we are doomed to a one party state for some time.
What did you gain by voting leave mrmo?
The vote suggests you voted leave, is that not how you see it??
what do you gain by leaving that was not possible whilst in the EU? How do we get a better position than we were in?IF you can come up with a reasoned response
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What did you gain by voting leave mrmo?
The vote suggests you voted leave, is that not how you see it??
Voted remain, as did a quarter of the population.
one quarter want change one quarter don't, one quarter didn't vote which usually suggests happy with status quo and one quarter weren't asked, on top of this plenty more in europe who will have to live with the result but although they are british were not allowed to vote.
So much for an overwhelming mandate!
As I've posted before - welcome to the future a la Hammond.
It is that Britain should free itself from all the constraints which Europe imposes and from its essential social democratic model and go for a new type of economy altogether.This economy would be defined in a sense by its very opposition to that European model. It would be free market, free trading, light regulation, low tax, low social protection – a sort of attempt to ?replicate the city states of Hong Kong and Singapore.
It’s not an impossible vision. We might – or at least some of us might – succeed in such a society.
But let us be very clear. It is not what a lot of the Brexit people voted for.
The NHS? Forget it. It would be much too expensive. Low numbers of migrants? Of course not, we would want them and need them. Theresa May’s workers on boards and a fairer capitalism? Not on this model.
What on earth would be the point of leaving Europe only to import Europe’s labour laws? Our competitive advantage would be precisely the absence of such regulation.
You what? Somebody tell erm.. [i]somebody[/i]. We actually voted remain? Shit the bed the Bobby Ewing story wasn't quite so silly after all.
YOU voted leave, the result is how YOU voted, that's how these things work. You do understand that little bit of info, Right?? There is no quarter of this and quarter of that after the result
You are as responsible as the next man (and perhaps 'even more so' if you think you are more intelligent than them)
We gained a huge amount of info from the vote, if you have a read of the thread you will see that some of the greatest minds in the world (self proclaimed of course) were shocked by the result, which perhaps shows a problem with our education system 😳
Cake and eat it...... yougov poll
theocb - Member
You what? Somebody tell erm.. somebody. We actually voted remain? Shit the bed the Bobby Ewing story wasn't quite so silly after all.YOU voted leave, the result is how YOU voted, that's how these things work. You do understand that little bit of info, Right?? There is no quarter of this and quarter of that after the result
You are as responsible as the next man (and perhaps 'even more so' if you think you are more intelligent than them)
We gained a huge amount of info from the vote, if you have a read of the thread you will see that some of the greatest minds in the world (self proclaimed of course) were shocked by the result, which perhaps shows a problem with our education system
Has chewkw got a new log in?
YOU voted leave, the result is how YOU voted, that's how these things work. You do understand that little bit of info, Right?? There is no quarter of this and quarter of that after the result
no i didn't vote leave, i do understand what you are suggesting, but in a general election do the opposition just sit back and accept the result or do they oppose the winner?
When there is a vote with such a margin, that offers no benefits. I will oppose it. Remember this is a one way vote, in five years there won't be a rematch.
And yes there is an issue, but 40 years of DM, Express et al, arguing against is it a shock?
The question you have to ask is where is the money? Who gains from leaving?
As for moving forward, IF the leaks of a hard brexit of implementing a "singapore" on the UK are to believed then the population of the UK is ****ed, maybe that is for the best.
I will just do what the Irish always have done, move on for a better life.
Has chewkw got a new log in?
better English if he has.... I guess someone reprogrammed the Bot.
looks like it . 😆
So much for an overwhelming mandate!
Any advisory referendum only requires an absolute majority, not an "overwhelming" one. Any binding referendum requires additional requirements to be carried… with a greater than 50% threshold vote and/or a % of voting age population to agree with the change from the status quo. We've been through this already… Conservatives have been acting as if it was a binding referendum (on both sides of the debate) for the sake of their party. The referendum bill would either have never been passed by parliament, or would have had the normal extra provisions required of a binding referendum placed upon it, if it was to be binding. The vote was not binding, it is for parliament now to decide on the course of action, knowing the result of the vote.
Simple. Clear. Legal. Absolute. True.
Our MPs are letting us down. And I don't just mean those who happen to make up the current, and previous, governments.
The vote was not decisive enough to make the changes now proposed.
If only we had some way to trigger a general election (rather than leaving that to MPs).
Keep up, if the referendum campaign had been just about our trading arrangements, it would never have gone the same way, those running the Leave campaign have said so (read back in this thread for quotes and full sources).
I think you will find I posted some of those links, I think in reality, rather than the hyperbole, it is about very little else.
If you think British politics has never been prone to extremes how do you explain the post-war creation of the welfare state, initially unique outside the Soviet Union? No other Western country had anything remotely similar.And how do you explain the election of a neo-liberal government in 1979, at the time quite unique outside Latin American dictatorships?
Clem Attlee and Margaret Thatcher not extremists? Yeah right
In both cases the consensus changed, but we as a people were led. Compared to other European nations, we are very dull - there has been no revolution. You may question the merit of the change in consensus and in the case of Margaret Thatcher no doubt you do, but in the overall scheme of things it was achieved though boring electoral process.
Mefty, we both agree on what Brexsit should be about, but the hyperbole took over a long time ago.
I think where we disagree is that you want to manage the downside risk, which is typically the position I would take, but there is a logical consistency to hard brexit that I can understand and don't think should be dismissed.
I reckon we might see £1 worth less than €1 this week 😕
If only we had some way to trigger a general election (rather than leaving that to MPs).
As long as May panders to the most right wing mouth foamers there's really no chance of a GE.
Toothless Jeremy with his "i feel your pain" Facebook posts on a range of mamby Pamby issues
Lib Dems nowhere
UKIP hovering dangerously
Nothing else out there.
The only thing you can hope for is a Tory revolt
I don't see the logical consistency in any qualification of Brexshit mefty. May is correct that Brexshit means Brexshit. Any qualifications are logically inconsistent.
But you are correct, I am seeking to limit the downside risk.
😀
Responsibility is hard to accept, I can agree with that. You don't need to look far on here to see many many others struggling with that.
No offence meant 8) but NO, you voted leave.. you need to say it, believe it and accept it! That is how it works.
Calling people idiots when perhaps you are more responsible than them, seems very short sighted to me.
With Trump wanting a quick and fair deal with the Uk , say goodbye to any workers right .
Watching the news, I am left with the appalling vision of Trump and Gove together. Nightmares guaranteed tonight.
I think you will find I posted some of those links, I think in reality, rather than the hyperbole, it is about very little else.
So being in the EU (and other European institutions) is about nothing other than trade?
Leaving them will only effect our trading arrangements?
That is all that will change?
> blinks <
one quarter didn't vote which usually suggests happy with status quo
I would suggest that really means happy with whatever is decided, not happy with the status quo...
@igm prior immigrants are always most at risk from new immigrants as it's their jobs and lifetsyle which face challenge. That's a true-ism. Been picked up in various TV pieces inc today's Sky interviews and the piece with Jess Phillips and Rees-Mogg.
@kelvin that's not how the Scottish Indy Ref and accompanying Edinburgh agreement worked. A 50.1 / 49.9 vote for an Independent Scotland would have been legally binding. It would have been greated with a huge celebration of "people's democracy" by Salmond and the SNP. Dancing in the streets etc. The SNP would kill for 52/48
Hammond is just mirroring the "tough talking" the EU has been doing and why not ? All this nonsense repeated here too about the negotiation being somehow one sided against the UK.
say goodbye to any workers right
Erm, okay BS Bill.. whatever you say. 🙄 (No offence, just wanted to get in there before all the 'fact based debaters' picked your post apart)
With Trump working with the UK you can say goodbye to pudding!
With Trump wanting a quick and fair deal with the Uk , say goodbye to any workers right .
The Great Repeal Bill will enshrine all existing UK workers rights in law and May has committed to keep them as long as she is PM. Nothing in TTIP was going to change workers rights.
The Great Repeal Bill will enshrine all existing UK workers rights in law and May has committed to keep them as long as she is PM. Nothing in TTIP was going to change workers rights.
Are you prepared to stake your reputation on this?
The Great Repeal Bill will enshrine all existing UK workers rights in law and May has committed to keep them as long as she is PM.
But the point is that currently they are beyond the tampering of our politicians.
[quote=captainsasquatch ]
The Great Repeal Bill will enshrine all existing UK workers rights in law and May has committed to keep them as long as she is PM. Nothing in TTIP was going to change workers rights.
Are you prepared to stake your reputation on this?
Genuine LOL
I reckon we might see £1 worth less than €1 this week
It will change on ce all those European banks are in trouble...
Another genuine LOL.
How many NHS services will be provided by American companies?
that's not how the Scottish Indy Ref and accompanying Edinburgh agreement worked
Agreed. And? Parliament made the EU referendum advisory, and would not have passed it as binding without additional checks and requirements. That Cameron and May both claimed it as anything but advisory is irrelevant to the truth of the matter, and goes against what parliament voted for. Parliament should insist on doing its job, even if court action is required. Current MPs are clearly not up for it, in the main.
The Great Repeal Bill will enshrine all existing UK workers rights in law and May has committed to keep them as long as she is PM. Nothing in TTIP was going to change workers rights
The problem is that amendments to the laws being incorporated could be changed by secondary legislation without parliamentary oversight. While arguably necessary in some cases where the effects are unlikely to meaningfuly alter lives and just due to the numbers of laws needing integrating there is nothing to stop adjustment of other laws that would materially damage or remove existing rights.
I don't trust any politician with that degree of power, and certainly not the flavour of Tories we have at the moment.
So being in the EU (and other European institutions) is about nothing other than trade?
Leaving them will only effect our trading arrangements?
That is all that will change?
Yep, because an awful lot else is up to us, if we decide to change things we will. If not, we won't.
mefty - MemberIn both cases the consensus changed
That's actually untrue. Although the Tories would rather people thought otherwise there was strong opposition to Clem Attlee and Nye Bevan, there was no consensus. Even the Guardian newspaper opposed the the creation of the NHS, something which was considered to be extreme left-wing and hadn't occurred anywhere outside the Soviet Union.
It wasn't initially embraced by the Tories at all. There was a clear alternative - the Tories. And yet the people still voted in favour of it.
Likewise when in 1979 Margaret Thatcher introduced privatisation and neo-liberal economic policies which had only been previously applied in Latin American military dictatorships she did not share the same goals as the Labour Party, or indeed LibDems, the British people had a very clear alternative to her policies. It wasn't until 1997 that the Labour Party fully embraced privatisation and neo-liberalism, and the LibDems even later.
Both in Attlee and Thatcher would in their day have been considered to be extremists. And there are other examples in history such as William Wilberforce an anti-slavery extremist who went against conventional wisdom and was a highly successful politician.
Your claim that [i]"British politics has never been prone to extremes"[/i] and that change only occurs under conditions of consensus is false imo.
Yep, because an awful lot else is up to us, if we decide to change
An awful lot requires supra-national coordination and oversight to be maintained.
Otherwise, business just moves to areas without protection (for workers rights, environment etc) or with low taxation.
Harmonisation, and improvement of, such things, is why so many hate the EU and other European bodies, and their "interfering".
An awful lot requires supra-national coordination and oversight to be maintained.
Why?
Harmonisation, and improvement of, such things, is why so many hate the EU and other European bodies, and their "interfering"
Did you just make that up? Harmonisation of workers rights and improvement of the environment is why people hate the EU??
Perhaps we needed you on the red bus committee. No bugger would have believed that!
Are you prepared to stake your reputation on this?
Indeed, soooo much to lose 🙂
Your claim that "British politics has never been prone to extremes" and that change only occurs under conditions of consensus is false imo.
To be fair, he said 'prone to extremes'. So whilst you list a few examples of extremists, that doesn't imply that extremists are likely, which is what prone to means.
Mefty - if it's all about trade then presumably everyone will be happy to keep freedom of movement of people? And the European court?
Igm don't be silly it's about getting ride of the courts and freedom of movement. The eu will just trade on whatever terms we tell them. Drake Nelson and Wellington are just getting their stuff ready to remind them who runs the world these days.
Bit of a coup for Gove and embarrassing for May to have a backbencher meet Trump b4 she did and discuss Brexshit and trade deals etc!
Likewise Johnson, I'll bet it made the old knife wound in his back itch.
I wonder if Murdoch may be turning against May.
Did you just make that up? Harmonisation of workers rights and improvement of the environment is why people hate the EU??Perhaps we needed you on the red bus committee. No bugger would have believed that!
You missed Boris banging on about vacuum cleaners in front of that red bus?
I didn't say these were the things that swayed the extra people needed to vote Leave, I'm saying that those that hate the EU, and campaigned for decades to leave, rather than on balance decided we're better off out, do indeed cite the regulation and laws that restrict environment damage, protect human rights, give workers minimum conditions, etc as the reasons why.
Pound taking a bit of a battering this morning.
Pound taking a bit of a battering this morning.
Apparently this is good and part of the long term, yet still unknown (by anyone) plan.
Relax. Everything will/could/might be better.
May has been very wise as regards the pound though.
Teasing slowly helps price In the drop, rather than have too big a shock drop in one go.
Still further down to go yet… but it could have mostly occurred in 2016, at least she's been buying time for people to get used to the idea.
Question: are Boris and Gove more powerful when Journalists or Ministers?
Michael Gove on R4 right now wetting himself with excitement.
I'm sure a deal involving the UK bending over and taking it can be done quickly....
[I]Cake and eat it...... yougov poll
http://www.open-britain.co.uk/morgan_new_poll_shows_leave_voters_not_prepared_to_have_their_family_finances_affected [/i]
Yes, which is why I (personally) consider the non-dogmatic Leave voters as basically stupid because they are unable to grasp the concept that 'things' are connected.
They seemed to blindly believe that the only thing that would occur if Leave won is that we would leave the EU, and that this action would have no other consequences nor impact them personally (except positively no doubt).
Hey, grow up Leavers!