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Junkyard - lazarus- stealing off savers
no matter how often you say this or something like it it is and will always be what you term post truth politics or complete BS if someone else says it
Its just is not true even the phrase held artificially low is BS
Artificially low interest rates is exactly stealing from savers.
Anyone with lots of savings on deposit has lost out massively over the last few years, in order to benefit people with debt.
I'm a little surprised that Michael Fish has not complained, is he still out there?
Of course it is oldnpastit, but governments rely on folk being economically and financially illiterate so that they can get away with it.
We have seen a massive reallocation from the financial prudent to the financially imprudent. Its a travesty that only survives through ignorance. Cash savers have "lost" around £160bn or £6,000 per household (according to HL study)
Artificially low interest rates is exactly stealing from savers.
This is true and as one of them it hurts! However it could be argued that it goes some way to addressing inter-generational wealth imbalances.
The credits cards spending was huge at Christmas.
At some point it needs repaying .
We have seen a massive reallocation from the financial prudent to the financially imprudent.
and it's creating a nice debt bubble....
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the bank has it hands tied now (missing numerous chances to raise rates gradually to ween us off credit)
this is why interest rates will remain low for the forseeable
This is true and as one of them it hurts! However it could be argued that it goes some way to addressing inter-generational wealth imbalances.
alternatively, it has increased imbalances by creating a wealth effect through property (bad for younger generation) and asset prices (ditto).
No necessarily kimbers, the devaluation has already increased inflationary pressures and expectations which will put pressure on rates and those who remain addicted to debt financing. There is no such thing as a free lunch or having you cake and eating it, unless you are a Brexshiteer or a Scottish Nat
no necessarily kimbers, the devaluation has already increased inflationary pressures and expectations which will put pressure on rates and those who remain addicted to debt financing. There is no such thing as a free lunch or having you cake and eating it
whos going to have the balls to pull the rug out in the middle of brexit though, the treasury/b o e/ sensible politicians are still worried about the economy, housebuilding is still a joke (garden cities then garden towns, now May promises garden villages 😯 ) the ftse is soaring to record highs-itll crash hard when the borrowing stops and we learnt from last time that whoever is in charge gets the blame regardless of actual fault.
It's the responsibility of our independent Central Bank. They have only two jobs to do: one is the manage inflation within a target range. Current rates are incompatible with inflation expectations, so the challenge is obvious and cannot be ignored
nah they know whatll happen to the economy if they did rise
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they will try a small rise at first,
but they wont be bold enough for fear of upsetting the economy and risking their independence- judges, ambassadors any civil servant that dares upset the brexiteers plans better get ready for a barrage of hate from the increasingly emboldened right wing press
lost out massively on what they may have reasonably expected is true theft is not true as a description of that unless you wish to redefine the word.Artificially low interest rates is exactly stealing from savers.
Anyone with lots of savings on deposit has lost out massively
indeed they have "lost" but they have not been robbed or the victims of theft as you claimed that is still what I challenged and we all know its not theft.Cash savers have "lost" around £160bn or £6,000 per household (according to HL study)
It may be unfair on the "financially prudent "* but it is not in any meaning of the word the crime of theft/stealing.
Please be accurate in your descriptions or go report the "crime" that has never happened ,then take them to court and get back to us on your "success".
* which means wealthy really as who else has savings? and its not possible to be "financially prudent" for those on a low income as they just dnt have enough 60 % have less than 1k saved its because they dont earn enough to save rather than lack of "prudence"Still lets all worry about the better off minority as they must be the ones really feeling the pinch in this financially austere time
PS
If rates were artificially low, then attempts to raise them should be successful. But recent attempts by central banks to raise rates have all gone poorly. Japan tried in 2000 and 2006, Sweden in 2010, the ECB in 2011. In each case the economy soon went back into recession and/or deflation, and the central bank had to cut rates back to zero to prevent an outright depression.
still feel free to argue with OHD economists because if you want three opinions ask two economists 😉
http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2015/04/what_does_it_me.html#
At the moment kimbers, they will try and hold off as long as possible - but the lower for longer approach merely stores up future problems. Did I mention, no such thing as a free lunch?
So more stealing on the way....
...still no harm in flooding markets with liquidity at a time of artificially low rates is there? Lessons....history....failure...
It is still not stealing that is just an outright untruth delivered by yet another purveyor of post truth BS
* which means wealthy really as who else has savings? and its not possible to be "financially prudent" for those on a low income as they just dnt have enough 60 % have less than 1k saved its because they dont earn enough to save rather than lack of "prudence"Still lets all worry about the better off minority as they must be the ones really feeling the pinch in this financially austere time
You're not really bitter at all are you..
60 % have less than 1k saved its because they dont earn enough to save rather than lack of "prudence"
I'd love to see some facts/figures on that.
All i see everywhere is people pissing money away on monthly subs (smartphones, netflex, 100000mbit internet etc) and then wondering how it is they have no money. And that's before we get to interest payments on the debt they have built all so they can view facebook in 1080p whilst on the bus.
your statement being true for 10% I could quite believe, but 60% seems a little far fetched.
One only has to look at how quickly market rates responded to a change in ECB stealing this week, to see that rates are artificially depressed - eg, Portugal.
Central Banks are deliberately distorting/mispricing risk thereby stealing off investors who are not receiving the correct return to compensate for the risk that they are willing to take.
Post truth? Is that a different set of lies to the Pre truth era? Perhaps its the same lies but said by some you don't like and who you don't want to agree with. Given the post truth verbiage on here i'd remind us all that "the person in the room you like the least is the one thats most like you".
Now the soon to be Free State of Yorkshire there is only one truth. Our beer is without question the best. Once we are out of the EU, UK and the rest of the world beer will be free, its gonna be great.
Low interest rates have been essential to prevent numerous EU countries going bust and to achieve the same for massively indebted individuals.
As @firefly says there are many people with no savings who have fancy smart phone and go out every Fri/Sat night apending £££. That's before we talk about holidays and cars.
@tmh the Cambridge Paper is worth reading, only 60 pages and a lot you can skim. Very little chnage in services as tariff free and few cross border restrictions (eg Indian call centre / management consultancy / advertising and marketing ...)
Post truth? Is that a different set of lies to the Pre truth era? Perhaps its the same lies but said by some you don't like and who you don't want to agree with.
Best ignored, other than noting confirmation that governments rely on people misunderstanding what is going on
Jambas, low interest rates are keeping zombies afloat, distorting markets, mispricing risk and largely impotent when corporates and households are deleveraging. Your new friends (Wynne Godley et al) at Cambridge would not have approved!
Another Brexit victim -
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38528547 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38528547[/url]
you are not really able to negate the points made so you just shot the messenger rather than addressed the messageYou're not really bitter at all are you..
moneyfacts is the source for the amount the reasons are mine not theirs- imagine checking the figure before posting if only this would catch on LOOKS AT JAMBY IN PARTICULAR 😉I'd love to see some facts/figures on that.
and you say I troll - too obvious THM too obvious you like to press buttons but that just made me chucklehow quickly market rates responded to a change in ECB stealing this week
Are your pants on fire?Central Banks are deliberately distorting/mispricing risk thereby stealing off investors who are not receiving the correct return to compensate for the risk that they are willing to take.
Its a risk to put your savings in a bank now is it 😀 again too obvious and far less funny
yes anyone who does not have savings is clearly profligate with their money rather than living on the margins of affordability- you checked that as a fact before posting didn't you and will show us income rates and saving to prove their is no relationship between the two I assumeAs @firefly says there are many people with no savings who have fancy smart phone and go out every Fri/Sat night apending £££
@tmh the Cambridge Paper is worth reading, only 60 pages and a lot you can skim. Very little chnage in services as tariff free and few cross border restrictions (eg Indian call centre / management consultancy / advertising and marketing ...)
I read it - hence my earlier thanks for the link. I appreciate you positing it too since (1) it does not support your view/views 😉 and (2) I am a fan of the "school of thought" behind it and their different understanding of our current problems.
On a wider issue it also highlights a key problem with economics. The over-use of mathematics leads to a false sense of accuracy/definition/precision in a subject that is at best a messy one. Relationships are rarely linear nor constant and models and maths give a totally false sense of the real world. This is reflected in the wide range of outcomes from sources using largely the same underlying model.
its what THM says when someone says something they KNOW is untrue and yet he will do it himself - its not actually theft- so I merely pointed out his hypocrisy and he failed to attempt a defence beyond his usual digs - he also likes to remind us to not play the man assuming the man is a man he likes.Post truth? Is that a different set of lies to the Pre truth era? Perhaps its the same lies but said by some you don't like and who you don't want to agree with.
IMHO post truth is just saying something you know is BS and pretending its true
Its not theft though it may well be unfair - that is at least debatable.
Another Brexit victim -
😀
So the Australian franchises went into receivership due to Brexit ? It's a love or hate it chain, I think its ok but there are many who feel it's over priced rubbish.
Low interest rates have been essential to prevent numerous [b]EU[/b] countries going bust and to achieve the same for massively indebted individuals.
Is Japan in the EU, is Switzerland in the EU, is the USA?
Seriously, what the ---- are you on about? Low interest rates across the First World.
tmh ah missed the reference, I post stuff from all view points. The peice is pretty positive despite negative assumptions. As Insaid had that been the "project fear" scenarios I think Leave would have won by more. We will start seeing more positive pieces going forward as Economists eat their humble pie as actual data continues to be much more positive. Europe is in a dreadful state economically, sp ething is going to break sooner rather than later.
The over-use of mathematics leads to a false sense of accuracy/definition/precision
its strange as people want ever more accurate predictions but each attempt just makes the science look worse
for example if a billion people started smoking today no one could say exactly which ones get cancer, when where it would cluster etc
yet we all know that cancer rates will inevitably rise
In much the same way the modellers were correct that Brexit will be "bad" but not able to say exactly how bad - see also global warming and any number of areas where folk are amazed we cannot actually predict the future with 100% degree accuracy and use this as a method to deride the entire subject/experts.
@kelvin yes indeed. My point is that's a big part of why the EU has low rates. Switzerland has negative interest rates to try and discourage money flowing into the country out of bust Europe, Japan has had ultra low interest rates for decades as they still haven't really dealt with the excesses of the 1980's (sound familiar ?)
Are we betting on whether credit will continue to rise to a point of catastrophe or whether it'll go down a bit because it was a 'last hooray' response to the expectation of price rises and belt tightening during 2017/18?
I'm not sure, although the scale of consumer credit is now alarming. Again.
So the Australian franchises went into receivership due to Brexit ?
The news in that link is about UK branches closing.
The Australian buy out/back is old news.
[i]Another Brexit victim -[/I]
Wouldn't think so, footfall doesn't cover overheads - wonder what the 'fees' are to the mother business?
Jambas - not sure it is positive, just less negative than others largely because (IIRC) their model treats consumption differently
While we include a scenario based on Treasury assumptions, a more realistic, although in our view still pessimistic, scenario assumes a much lower level of the trade loss than that of the Treasury. The results are presented through comparing these scenarios with a pre-referendum forecast. In the milder Brexit scenario there is a 2% loss of GDP by 2025 but little loss of per capita GDP, and also less unemployment but more inflation. In the more severe, Treasury-based scenario the loss of GDP is nearer 5% (2% for per capita GDP), inflation is higher and the advantage in unemployment less.
Actual data is not much more positive - consumption and services have held up well, the pound has weakened as predicted and inflationary expectations have increased. So a mixed bag. Remember too, that these models all include assumptions about a life post-Brexit and this has not happened. The BoE admitted yesterday that they underestimated the resilience of consumption. That was it really.
FWIW, econ data from Europe surprised on the upside yesterday! German's want rates to rise see Handelsblatt from two days ago
Wouldn't think so, footfall doesn't cover overheads - wonder what the 'fees' are to the mother business?
Overheads - they pride themselves on using Italian ingredients, not UK sourced ones, so margins tighten when the £ drops. Plenty of UK companies are built on trade, because, well, you know, the world is not one little island.
So a mixed bag.
We are still in the EU, and a party to all the trade deals and agreements that the EU has with non-EU countries.
And we've delayed triggering our exit for an extra 9 months, so 2 year plans can still go ahead as normal, for now.
I know - but the macro trends can still be observed so far and they are a "mixed bag". Happy?
Oliver misread the market clearly. His massive overuse of garlic in most dishes is incompatible with our newly uncovered xenophobia. Who wants breath like a S European these days? 😉
Agreed… Italian food made with Italian ingredients… string the traitor up!
We are still in the EU, and a party to all the trade deals and agreements that the EU has with non-EU countries.
Ssshhhh, dont tell the Brexshiteers that we already have trade deals with nearly 90% of our trading partners as it spoils one of their five lies.
Low interest rates have been essential to prevent numerous EU countries going bust and to achieve the same for massively indebted individuals.
Greece was paying 25%, Portugal 9%(or more), Spain 7%... not low interest rates.
The countries in difficulty were put in more difficulty because of Germany's refusal to fund debt with Eurobonds in the same was as the Fed funds states in difficulty with money at low interset rates.
there are many people with no savings who have fancy smart phone and go out every Fri/Sat night apending £££. That's before we talk about holidays and cars.
Quite. But, is it their fault? If you were "just about managing" and had ten quid left over each month, would you throw that into a savings account, or a Netflix sub that gave you something to do every night?
In the 80s we had a capitalist boom, people suddenly realised that both partners could work and earn nearly double the money they needed to run a household / family. Fast forward thirty years, the cost of living vs earnings has shot up and no-one's really noticed, so now we're in a situation where both partners [i]have[/i] to work in order to approach the same lifestyle they grew accustomed to a generation ago.
Meanwhile, the banks and various money agencies were falling over themselves for offer people "free money" in the form of credit they'd never hope to achieve. The last time I got a mortgage quote, we were offered credit well over four times what I could comfortably afford to pay back each month. And (as Brexit has demonstrated) a lot of people are a danger to themselves.
People could be smarter, but then, we could also be better at educating them in the first place. What happened to Home Economics at school? Why aren't we teaching young people to manage money, balance home accounts, recognise good vs bad debt? (Along with other life skills: cooking, cleaning, critical thinking...)
[b]they grew accustomed to[/b]
Indeed - personal responsibility
Meanwhile, the banks and various money agencies were falling over themselves for offer people "free money" in the form of credit they'd never hope to achieve.
Ditto - plus the scandal of retail financial services
What happened to [b]Home Economics[/b] at school?......Along with other life skills: [b]cooking[/b]
😀
An article in Le Point , french news magazine , claims that more and more tories are loosing faith in TM over her lack of decision making , and G Osborne would not mind making a bid for leadership .
former ambassador craig murray agrees
Ivan Rogers’ strictures on the lack of government planning and preparedness are quite correct. Brexit is a seat of the pants exercise resulting from a ruse to hide political divisions in the Tory Party. The only definite principle appears to be that the preservation of a pure stream of racist thinking on immigration is sacrosanct, and every other interest or policy must be sacrificed to that. In Liam Fox and Theresa May, the political leadership lies in the hands of two people lacking totally in the required intellectual capacity, while all the senior civil servants who support them – including Tim Barrow – are engaged in a policy with which they fundamentally disagree. I think we are about to see a pig’s ear of a policy with a pig’s arsehole as a result.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/
back to the original question
I'm out
still
more and more tories are loosing faith in TM over her lack of decision making
Fingers crossed for a proper shake-up. We need some real competence on both sides.
Would be amusing to fight a GE though with two faltering leaders resented by their own parties!
have you told your parents ?i believe that is the hardest part but i commend your courage and support your decision 😉
pressure mounting on may then
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"Why French women don't do cleavage". WTF is that all about? You'll see more "jolie décolleté" in a day in Pau than you'll see in a year in Hinkley. Madame's boss had to ask one of her colleagues to show a little less in the classroom. As for rock and roll night... !
googles "jolie décolleté 😯
G Osborne would not mind making a bid for leadership .
the new lot really have done well to make Osborne to look like the answer. 😀
"Tout le monde est sur le balcon" - I'm sure that's wrong but Frank Skinner was making a joke with Marion Cotilard on the Christmas Graham Norton Show.
A ratther large dollop of wishful thinking from the Remainers here. Brexit on track, woman Prime Minister miles ahead of rivals in the polls. What's not to like 8) ?
the correct saying is
Il y a du monde au balcon !
I am pretty sure David Cameron was ahead in the polls too .
Look where he is now , making millions doing speeches ....
Dont worry Jambs, the scientists will fight back, were ever the optimists
http://www.nature.com/news/scientists-should-not-resign-themselves-to-brexit-1.21237
craig murray's quote really summed it up for me
The only definite principle appears to be that the preservation of a pure stream of racist thinking on immigration is sacrosanct,
worth fighting for !, yeah the votes over but I have faith that the May & the brexiteers are putting the shambles in brexishambles
can we assume the "muddled thinking" is mrs mayhem, moe, larry and curly belief they can get full unfettered access to the singlemarket for free/on the cheap with no freedom of movement.
Brexit on track
You have got to be kidding me.
If A50 is not triggered by the end of March then I'll agree with you molgrips. Otherwise on track. Happy Days.
Brexit on track
You have got to be kidding me.
No, it is on track,
You have got to be kidding me.
He just means on track to happen.
For a believer, it doesn't have to go well, just happen.
Some truth in that (first part) but I am good with a quick clean exit and WTO rules to allow us to crack on with focusing our economy globally. A bit of a short sharp shock. Worst outcome would be some buggars muddle transition bollix.
@mrmo, enjoyed that. Quite a good metaphor really, lots of hysterical screaming but it's all OK in the end 🙂
Quite a good metaphor really, lots of hysterical screaming but it's all OK in the end
Sadly the brexies aren't in possession of a realistic plan, let alone a flux capacitor 🙁
Vince Cable writes about his opposition to freedom of movement
But I have serious doubts that EU free movement is tenable or even desirable. First, the freedom is not a universal right, but selective. It does not apply to Indians, Jamaicans, Americans or Australians. They face complex and often harsh visa restrictions. [b]One uncomfortable feature of the referendum was the large Brexit vote among British Asians, many of whom resented the contrast between the restrictions they face and the welcome mat laid out for Poles and Romanians[/b].
A point I have made a few times re my Indian relatives
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/01/why-its-time-end-eu-free-movement
[quote=jambalaya ]@mrmo, enjoyed that. Quite a good metaphor really, lots of hysterical screaming but it's all OK in the end
This is more like how Brexit is on track then:
It does not apply to Indians, Jamaicans, Americans or Australians. They face complex and often harsh visa restrictions
Now everyone will face complex and often harsh restrictions. Wins for everyone.
And yes brexit is on course which has is why the pm is fighting in the courts to avoid asking Parliament to approve a 50 if she was confident in the numbers there would be no need.
mikewsmith - MemberNow everyone will face complex and often harsh restrictions. Wins for everyone.
Exactly this. The government is promising to make it harder for absolutely everyone. It's a classic bit of Cameronian "fairness"- we're going to shit on you every day but that's Fair because we're shitting on everyone else too. And you're supposed to go, ah well fair dos, you only used to shit on us once a year but that annoyed us because you didn't shit on that guy over there at all. Now that you're shitting on both of us every day we're really happy!
And as pointed out repeatedly the people who voted out don't like immigration. They want it reduced.
Vince does realise that Jam, US and Aus are not members of the single market doesn't he?
Agree with Jamba on one point, we can only determine whether Brexshit is on track at states deadlines. Looks like May will hit March despite everything which is no mean achievement for a remainer like her!
Jamba, a third and last attempt. Please can you explain how this WTO thing works so that I can feel happy that it's nice an easy to crack on with going global. I am a tad worried that it might not be straightforward. Thanks
Why do you need Jamba to tell you WTO isn't going to be straightforward, don't you believe everyone else who tells you it isn't going to be?
WTO seems to work just fine for the US and China trading with EU, no ? No tariffs on services btw. Have said this repeatedly.
Mike it should be difficult to get into a rich successful country like the UK, it's difficult to get into US, Australia etc. My understanding the Aussie system is in practical terms you can get approval to go to say Perth/WA (where Australians don't want to go) but not Sydney/NSW which is almost impossible to get approval for.
As the Cambridge report points out along with many others freedom of movement always presented stresses to the EU which multiplied enormously with it's expansion Eastwards. In the final analysis that has been one of the major factors in our exit.
Worst outcome would be some buggars muddle transition bollix.
Worst outcome would be thousands lose their jobs, the roofs over their heads etc.
WTO seems to work just fine for the US and China trading with EU, no ?
It works but not fine? China and US are not proper comparables to the UK/EU unless of course your advocating we should transition and mirror those countries.
So what if thousands of people are forced out if jobs? They will be able to do what we did in the good old days which is go and work on a German building site.
Oh , erm , well maybe not.
Also really glad to see the price of petrol going up. Don't forget every penny on a litre (soon to be good old gallons again) is a penny in the Freedom Bank.
Worst outcome would be some buggars muddle transition bollix.
Really because your vaunted Cambridge report assumed a transition deal and full (non WTO) trade deal so we'd only loose 2% of GDP
Which bits of the report is it ok to selectively quote and which do we ignore?
Jambalaya's view of the world no doubt. From this weeks New Yorker.
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i'm confused i thought brexit meant better trading relations with non eu nations 😕
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Chinese financiers told the newspaper that a scheme to link the London and Shanghai stock exchanges had "lost momentum".
seems being outside the eu doesn't appeal to the Chinese.
Now he can answer back 🙂
Everyone needs to read this, from the FT.
[url= https://www.ft.com/content/ef13e61a-ccec-11e6-b8ce-b9c03770f8b1 ]The Long And Painful Journey To World Disorder[/url]
The link may not work, in which case Google "Martin Wolf: The long and painful journey to world disorder" and you should be able to read it...
Proper bigger picture stuff. Problem with a lot of Leave voters I think is by definition they're very parochial in their views of the world - they really don't have that broader understanding of politics, history and economics which has led to them feeling the way they do, and hence they've been easily manipulated into believing that leaving the EU will solve all the problems they feel they have. I think a lot of the problems they identify (inequality, slow economic growth, distant elite) are real problems and they're right to shout about them - but they've utterly missed the causation of them and been led into believing the EU is the problem when in fact it's the confluence of far bigger and broader trends... Personally I think Brexit or not, UK is in for a lost generation of slow growth and falling living standards... none of this 'lost decade' nonsense - more like 30+ years...
I'm thinking of emigrating as current UK leadership (Tory and Labour) seems unable to grasp the depth and breadth of the issue and is pandering to their own base and a fearful, tantrumy electorate... which isn't quite what we need in a crisis
Mike it should be difficult to get into a rich successful country like the UK, it's difficult to get into US, Australia etc.
An argument not without merit.
What's that got to do with us leaving the EU?
Bigger picture stuff that focuses on the negatives and ignores the positives Brooess.
[url= https://archive.is/vpKqE ]Link without a pay wall.[/url]
One country wants to leave Europe but that's not much to a community that's gone from 6 to 27. The cold war goes on but is cooler than at almost any point in my lifetime. Proxy wars go on but with both camps on more or less the same side even if one is with the Kurds and the other with Basha. Population is the real problem and is most visible in places where population has outstripped resources.
Anyhow, where do you want to emigrate to? It worked for me, erhaps because I was so positive about where I was going rather than negative about where I was leaving.
Brexit : Chinese official said : "UK is the door to European markets. With no access to Single Market It's just a door"
Go Brexit..