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Jambas, agreed but what does this have to do with our membership of EU?
In times of economic stress people DO look for someone else to blame and foreigners are easy targets despite being not to blame. As we have seen here, the attempts to "finger" foreigners and migrants re anything from weak wage growth to NHS problems is a menefistcation of how unsavoury this type of xenophobia is.
It's actually shameful
Agreed.
It has nothing at all to do with the EU as most of these communities are non-EU nationals - as many Brexiters will find to their annoyance.
But its ok for same type of Brit who complain of this perceived ghettoisation to go off to Spain etc and live in their hideous enclaves there.
They should visit Keighley, and realise that Bradford and Leeds are cosmopolitan melting pots by comparison
That sounds unfair to Keighley to me. Having worked in Keighley for over 30 years, I realise there are some issues of integration, but to describe it as ghettoisation is going a bit far IMO. Ninfan, what aspects make you think its worse than Bradford? From where I'm sitting Bradford looks less integrated than Keighley.
You Brexiters ought to live where we do, no immigration issues here:
http://www.ourscottishborders.com/invest/facts/demographics
And pretty much accepted as some of the best trails in the UK 🙂
So 25% of the country are ignorant/racist - probably the same number if I moved somewhere else.
Exactly… moving to another country won't help you avoid those who fear change and difference.
Live where ever you want, and fight for openness from your own corner of the world.
Actually, it's strange how internationally connected some of those campaigning for closing borders are…
…perhaps we can learn something about campaigning from the Russia, National Front, UKIP, Trump collaborations…
You Brexiters ought to live where we do, no immigration issues here:http://www.ourscottishborders.com/invest/facts/demographics
And pretty much accepted as some of the best trails in the UK
Makes you wonder why immigrants would rather live in Oldham than Scotland. What can they see that others can't?
One could almost argue that the lack of immigration to Scotland is because despite everything everybody states England and Wales are more welcoming. Why else are they not moving there?
Cos it's cold, grim, backward and there are no jobs (scottish expat here BTW).
Many moons ago there were a load of Vietnamese boat people landed up in Aberdeen.
My mum, being the public spirited soul she was, volunteered to help a family. She kind of became their main contact and I remember them visiting the house.
I'm pretty sure every family ended up moving away down south mainly because this far North was just too cold for them.
Well, that's what my mum said.
Cos it's cold, grim, backward and there are no jobs
You have described Oldham,
So why is Oldham more attractive to immigrants than Scotland? with its parliament singing from the trees that it has to maintain freedom of movement and wants immigrants why are they going to England and Wales?
I missed this ftr.
Why are white people expats when the rest of us are immigrants?
Who remembers this
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-german-citizenship-application-embassy-queue-claims-complete-rubbish-rejected-latest-a7194161.html%3Famp
Maybe , just maybe 2017 might have some good news after all.
It would be amusing to see that all the brexies have been played for fools by this man
Why are white people expats when the rest of us are immigrants?
During my time abroad I hated the term expat and wouldn't refer to myself so, I shunned the expat communities too. I see it as an Empire thing and I'm not in for that sort of crap.
Herr Farage, the first valid reason to leave the EU.
If he's a German citizen Shirley he couldn't be our ambassador to Trump?
Robbed by people passing through
rats leaving a sinking ship,
Phil is another Brexy being silly.
Not in the slightest 200 odd pages back it was said I didn't vote wasn't bothered either way.
500 pages in and people still wont take responsibility for their own future or realise your on your own "snowflake", yet spent plenty of time discussing what if , how and why .... 😯 oh well
You only hear the term "snowflake" on the Internet… and usually from people who seem overly scared of others.
@Kimbers do you really think Nigel Farage would try and get away with claiming 3 years continuous residency in Germany ? Even the biggest half wit in the German civil service would spot the name Farage.
500 pages in and people still wont take responsibility for their own future or realise your on your own "snowflake", yet spent plenty of time discussing what if , how and why .... oh well
Phil if you come back in another 20,000 posts that won't have changed. "Coz we woz robbed".
TMH IMO it's far less about blaming the immigrants and more about recognising we need to "take a breath or just slow down a bit". Except within the EU we cannot, we have no control.
More utter poppycock from Jambalaya. The example given a few posts back of Keighley and Bradford mainly concerns immigration from the Indian subcontinent. Are India, ****stan and Bangladesh members of the EU? No. It's a UK govt issue. Secondly, back in 2004 Germany and other nations opted to put a cap on immigrants from Poland and other ex-communist countries. Did the UK? No. That was a UK govt decision. So, it seems we have had control, we've just chosen not to exercise it.
I don't think I've ever said "we woz robbed". If we're going to go footballish I prefer "game of two halves" or something like that.
I think Brexies are wrecking the country and need to be stopped. But time is on the side of the remain camp provided we simply keep piling on pressure and doing our best to disrupt the Brexit establishment.
Make sure your MP gets more letters, emails, questions and visits from those trying to support Britain's place in the world than the Brexies who are trying to wreck it.
Make the remain voice heard everywhere you can.
#DisunityIsYourFriend
"Coz we woz [s]robbed[/s] conned"
We all know what robbers look like, they know what they look like and they generally fess up in court after being found out. Conmen on the other hand apply for German passports.
philxx1975 - Member
Not in the slightest 200 odd pages back it was said I didn't vote wasn't bothered either way.500 pages in and people still wont take responsibility for their own future or realise your on your own "snowflake", yet spent plenty of time discussing what if , how and why .... oh well
BTW, how is 'remain' jingoistic?
We all know what robbers look like, they know what they look like and they generally fess up in court after being found out. Conmen on the other hand apply for German passports.
is that why farige was sporting his tache at the time?
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did he think it made him look more teutonic 😉
coz it always said spiv to me but that works well obvs
[img] 
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it was his disguise .
Good moaning!
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I think he picked the wrong country.
I like the way the times has used the honours story to get backstabber gove on the front page
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That was a UK govt decision. So, it seems we have had control, we've just chosen not to exercise it.
Don't forget the Chinese steel dumping fiasco that they vetoed...
Dunno how they continuously get away with it tbh.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/31/theresa-may-new-year-message-brexit
I mean wtf, how do you keep the remainers and leavers happy!
Well I shall watch with interest.
Bit late now, after the divisive and bigoted Brexit campaign only made worse by the rhetoric that came out of the Tory party conference
In that light co-opting Jo Cox seems particularly distasteful.
To try and claim she speaks for the 48% after her Brexit means Brexit waffle, it's just more brexishambles
Theresa May "I'd like to open negotiations with the EU by saying we must leave ASAP,and we will be staying in!"
Easy way to buy my support, Theresa. Cancel Brexit.
'Tis the New Year, time to through away the deftness of 2016.
I see tye non-Tory supporting Remainers are not happy with the Tory government actually leaving the EU, nothing new there.
igm look at the opinion polls, the Tories have ample votes already. If you are strongly Remain it's the Lib Dems for you in coalition with tye SNP. Good luck with that.
A grim prgramme on French TV the other day about appalling animal welfare abuses in Eastern Europe. Turns out large parts of Fois Gras production has moved there due to substantially lower costs as they simply ignore the EU animal welfare legislation (as per Pork). Journalists filming birds in pens (even from the road) where chased by axe and pitch fork wielding "farmers". Also EU rules legally allow much of this production to be labeled as French if its finished/canned in France.
that must have made great festive viewing. the producers of fois gras aren't exactly known for their concerns for animal welfare generally, are they?
the eu doesn't cause these situations to exist just because itself it exists. individuals or individual nations choose to ignore eu regulations. this isn't the fault of the eu!
Bad people do something bad somewhere in Europe, therefore the UK must leave the EU.
Yes, suddenly it all makes perfect sense,
Can we also assume that it was French companies that moved the product out there, again not an EU issue but something that can be dealt with by national govts.
I wonder to what extent foie gras production moving to Poland is a reflection on the high taxes in France.
A grim prgramme on French TV the other day about appalling animal welfare abuses in Eastern Europe. Turns out large parts of Fois Gras production has moved there due to substantially lower costs as they simply ignore the EU animal welfare legislation
You've just got to love capitalism, don't you? Perhaps a bit more bureaucratic intervention might prevent this sort of thing. But you don't want that, do you?
Are you now arguing against yourself? It's all very confusing.
Indicative of totally ineffective EU and member states yet again simply ignoring the rules with no consequences. What's the point ?
Indicative of totally ineffective EU and member states yet again simply ignoring the rules with no consequences. What's the point ?
I thought there was the issue with too much interferring, and now you want more... You really don't know, do you?
#LEAVE (and that's about it).
To raise standards?
http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/news/tattenhall-farmer-james-stratton-jailed-6550740
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/7469616.stm
http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/11468706.Cerne_Abbas_farmer_jailed_after_breaking_cattle_laws/
i could keep on going, animal abuse whilst not common in the UK is hardly exceptional. So yes there will be abuses in Poland as there were in France.
But blaming the EU is really missing the point that some people are idiots, looking to cut costs, don't give a dam etc etc etc.
people are idiots, looking to cut costs
I spent some time working with people (who certainly weren't idiots) on cost reductions aimed at maintaining production in France rather than taking the easy option of throwing in the towel and producing somewhere cheaper. Cost cutting = survival in many industries, and the EU imposing higher standards (working conditions, safety, environmental standards, consideration for animals) is one of the few ways it can level the playing field and thus reduce social dumping.
Cost cutting = survival in many industries, and the EU imposing higher standards (working conditions, safety, environmental standards, consideration for animals) is one of the few ways it can level the playing field and thus reduce social dumping.
agreed costs will always be an issue, but do we want to emulate hormone beef, or return to battery cages, veal crates etc. It is never going to be easy to balance animal rights and keep production costs down. Is it protectionist to demand minimum standards?
Whatever legislation that exists some will ignore it. Horse meat sold as beef for example.
The pesky red tape that the brexiters want to be abolished, how much is workers rights? Holidays, paternity, working hours, etc How much is environmental, the constant failure of London to keep the air clean, simple solution scrap the target.
perhaps the remuneration package for the birds is far better in Poland, especially given the high taxes of France.
In a Free Yorkshire this so called food would not be allowed. If it don't go wi Yorkshire puddin or fish n chips it bloody pig swill.
So May said she wanted to get the best deal for both sides. If this is anything other than meaningless platitudes, it must mean soft Brexit. That's the only way to come close to that ideal.
we have social segregation and lack of opportunitiy for some immigrant communities, ie "it's not working" amd its getting worse not better with increasing segregation. We should be addressing this before placing the enormous stresses of significant EU migration onto it.
Two things.
1) What does immigration have to do with leaving the EU (and vice versa)? The UK sets its own immigration policy, the idea that we have lots of foreigners because of the EU is simply a lie to appeal to racists.
2) if we do leave the EU, and the pound inevitably goes even further down the toilet than it already has, what's going to happen to immigration? The UK is suddenly going to be massively attractive to non-EU migrants from, say, India and ****stan. You know, those nasty brown people whom this is really all about though no-one will admit to it.
Oh, and Jamba, I'm still waiting for you to elaborate on which bits of that several hundred page legal paper you're objecting to. Just a reminder, you seem to have forgotten.
[quote=molgrips ]If this is anything other than meaningless platitudes
"Brexit means Brexit"
"red white and blue Brexit"
I'm sure that's not at all likely.
Well I have no idea what colour, texture or sound of Brexit we are going to get. I think I have that much in common with Mrs. May.
...and our European partners
Cougar, I did say earlier BEFORE I posted it. As an EU based asset manager those rules applied to me even if the assets I bought and clients I served where outside the EU (90% of client money was outside the EU) I repeatedly tried to get business moved to NYC but was told regulations would still aplly as HQ was in EU. I had fewer deals to chose from and they had lower returns due to these rules. My competitors where all outside the EU and at no such disadvantage.
On migration look at the history, EU migration started ramping up when Poland joined (many EU Nations inc Germany had restrictions on freedom of movement from Poland initially btw, Blair said theybweren't necessary). EU migration increased 50% from 2012 to 2016. We have no control over this. Sir Keith Starmer was talking about it just the other day. Corbyn and Abbott aside Labour get it now, the Referendum saw to it.
Captain it's not so much about the existance of regulations as the absolute non-compliance, the EU simply does not enforce the rules. We are pretty law abiding in this country, there are parts of the EU where it's frankly considered optional. Despite non-compliance EU members have complete free access. The EU/ECB was either woefully negligent (unlikley) or just turning a blind eye with Greek rule breaking with regard to eurozone debt. Same issue just multiplied a thousand fold.
[i]Cougar, I did say earlier BEFORE I posted it. As an EU based asset manager those rules applied to me even if the assets I bought and clients I served where outside the EU (90% of client money was outside the EU) I repeatedly tried to get business moved to NYC but was told regulations would still aplly as HQ was in EU. I had fewer deals to chose from and they had lower returns due to these rules. My competitors where all outside the EU and at no such disadvantage.[/i]
Ok, but you could've just resigned and gone and joined one of these non-EU companies?
I'm not sure that answers the question, jamba - exactly what rules in that document caused you problems? A quick summary would be handy (though from what you say, you appear to essentially be arguing for zero regulation, which I suspect you're the only person on here to think to be a good thing - and I doubt many of the Leave voters would think it a good thing).
Regarding the last para, would an option for Brexit which solves the issue be to remain part of the EU, but follow other countries in ignoring all the rules? Assuming of course that's not largely an urban myth propagated by the Torygraph.
We have no control over this.
But… you just blamed a UK PM for not using the controls he had available to him, and pointed out that other nations did use those controls, the EU didn't stop them.
We are pretty law abiding in this country, there are parts of the EU where it's frankly considered optional.
Remind me, how much have UK banks had to pay in compensation and fines since 2011?
So after Brexit , no more financial regulations , great for the few who have a few millions to invest , and who is going to bail them out when it goes wrong like in 2007/2008 ?
Immigration , you said it yourself , UK PM decided not to impose restrictions . The UK economy needs low paid workers . the low rate of unemployment is the prefect proof of this .
My competitors where all outside the EU and at no such disadvantage.
But are the regulations actually bad things?
Well intentioned possibly, terribly executed.
Junker. Further evidence (if any was actually needed) that Junker was personally involved in obstructing EU tax investigations and tax law.
The president of the European commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, spent years in his previous role as Luxembourg’s prime minister secretly blocking EU efforts to tackle tax avoidance by multinational corporations, leaked documents reveal.
Years’ worth of confidential German diplomatic cables provide a candid account of Luxembourg’s obstructive manoeuvres inside one of Brussels’ most secretive committees.
Honestly, why does anyone EVER believe anything any of these sh1sters say
other than a cull of the whole political class/ elite what can we do
But are the regulations actually bad things?
Yes, in the eyes of the bank. Do you remember the googd times of 2007 (and earlier), high rewards and even higher risks. What could possibly go wrong? I mean these bankers know what they're doing, don't they?
I can't even see Jamba saying that the banks would self regulate and that a global banking crisis would never happen again. That's why an outside entity needs to set regulations.
How can losing business to nonEU competition NOT have a negative on Jamba personally, as he so oft claims?
We are pretty law abiding in this country, there are parts of the EU where it's frankly considered optional.
Apart from the examples given that we too know how to treat animals, I wonder what the fox hunt brigade did as they quietly accpeted the fox hunting ban on Boxing Day.
Again you fail to see one of the great functions of the EU. You really should get out more. I'll give you a clue on this one, this time. They don't throw donkeys from church steeples anymore in Spain, and there was little protest about this. #Education.
I'm surprised you don't understand this as the Empire did so much good in educating the [s]captives[/s] [s]natives[/s] [s]subjects[/s] locals. Would India have such levels of education without UK intervention?
Honestly, why does anyone EVER believe anything any of these sh1sters say
I wonder whether anyone has considered asking Mike Ashley. 😕
Gerald Coyne standing against Len McClusky for head of Unite Union says control over our borders / immigration is a key "Brexit Red Line"
You'd think that juncker, ukip and Tory MEPs would be natural allies as they both have a history of trying to block EU tax avoidance clampdowns
http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ukip-vote-against-eu-tackling-tax-evasion-34651.html
it's not so much about the existance of regulations as [b]the absolute non-compliance[/b], the EU simply does not enforce the rules.
[b]We are pretty law abiding in this country[/b], there are parts of the EU where it's frankly considered optional.
so we comply with EU regulations, but there is absolute non-compliance with EU regulations. 😕
I can start to see why some people think your arguments are confused.
EU regulations pass in to nation state's law, and individual nations are responsible for enforcement of these rules. it's not that complicated is it? i imagine now that the investigative journos in your fois gras example have done the story and got the publicity this practice will be significantly reduced in poland.
the EU is on a journey and it is far from complete, mainly because of the nationalistic bleating of those who can afford it.
Del - MemberEU regulations pass in to nation state's law, and individual nations are responsible for enforcement of these rules. it's not that complicated is it?
They can keep their EU regulations coz there is no need for them to exist.
the EU is on a journey and it is far from complete, mainly because of the nationalistic bleating of those who can afford it.
You might as well say that we are still coming out of ice age with that argument coz there is no end and no beginning apart from your own view. This journey will end soon. Very soon.
They can keep their EU regulations coz there is no need for them to exist.
How about cleaner beaches?
Uniform safety standards?
Cross European standards that mean you know what an electrical item will comform to, when each country has its own the world gets more complex.
And quite simply the UK will still have to comply with thousands of eu regs to continue trading.
Rupe wanted us to leave the EU, according to Major.
So many seem opposed to 'Brussels' teling us what to do that they can't see the wood for the trees.
Foreign nationals, coming over here from Australia*, wanting us to change our country's stance on things just so they can make money.... 😉
*other countries are available.
Jamba, thanks for the link showing how combating tax avoidance at a purely national level is impossible, and why people while running a country will fight against measures to reduce it (be it Lux, or indeed say, the UK or Irish governments).
They can keep their EU regulations coz there is no need for them to exist.
Absolutely right, there is no need for them to exist. Come to think of it we probably don't need UK laws and regulations. Let's go the whole hog and start up a bit of anarchy. That'd be so cool. Do what I want, when I want and screw you. Then we'll get proper survival of the fittest, won't we?
On the other hand we can look at improving ourselves and others around us, we can looking at living in harmony (peace and love, bro!) and help each other to get wealthier.
I think you've got it sussed though, kick everyone until they're on the ground and then tell them to shut up beacause they're all equal now! 🙄
EU directives are the law and mostly written by consultancies employed by the EU, they often have no idea of the subject (in my experience).
Standards are not the law, they just guidance to work to and are often written by industry based representives (CEN committees for example).
Also EU directives are enforced by each individual EU state.
Punishment for breaking an EU directive is what is deemed to be proportionate by the member state.
We'll have the same system in a free Yorkshire, if you want to sell your stuff in gods country the number of consultants will be of EU proportions. Each one will be open serious discussions on whatever production service is to be imported, these meeting will take place at the Riverhead Marsden over numerous thought inducing pints of bitter
Edit, I must avoid posting after a lunchtime pint.
captainsasquatch - MemberI can't even see Jamba saying that the banks would self regulate and that a global banking crisis would never happen again.
The "more, better capitalism" crowd are still out there in force tbh. I've never been sure whether they genuinely believe it or if it's just a tactic so they can say "abolish all regulation" without seeming like nutters.
I remember one guy saying that if it weren't for all the wasted resources banks had to put into evading regulation and hiding abuse, none of the banks would have gone out of business 😆 But more common and no less ridiculous is the idea that banks only acted poorly because of regulation; the abolition would mean they'd have no choice but to act responsibly. I think few of these people have kids, or at least, few that survive to adulthood.
Captain I have been pretty clear I think bank regulation (or lack of) was a major cause of the crises. It could definitely happen again, in fact I'd say probably based upon a eurozone collapse. Banks can hold eurozone debt with zero capital against it, ie it is totally risk free from a regulatory perspective.
@kelvin I have long said you cannot address corporate tax avoidance within the EU and that in fact it encourages it.
i suppose once out of the EU we can deregulate the hell out of our financial services so we can compete better for a bigger slice of that corporate tax avoidance pie, right?you cannot address corporate tax avoidance within the EU and that in fact it encourages it
Tax avoidance/evasion can only be addressed on a coordinated basis. That is obvious. So Brexshit makes this much harder not easier.
The crisis was ultimately caused by Central Banks flooding the market (to redress previous policy failures) at a time of artificially low interest rates. This lead to a massive mis-pricing of risk globally. The rest was noise. Of course, no one would be silly enough to repeat that mistake would they?
That is obvious.
You'd think that it would be.
But coordination is out, magically fixing things with wishful thinking at a purely national level is in.
Apparently.
Coordination. I guess that's the point you can't even get 28 countries which are part of a close economic and politial union to agree a policy for the common good. Lux and Ireland are prepared to screw the rest for 10's if not 100's of billions for a marginal local gain.
Brexit Britain with licencing for internet services (inc advertising taxes) and technology sales which dictate UK plc and tight controls on transfer pricing and allowable expenses (eg offshore licence fees). We couod certainky do a lot better than we have currently
mikewsmith - Member
How about cleaner beaches?
Uniform safety standards?
Cross European standards that mean you know what an electrical item will comform to, when each country has its own the world gets more complex.
And quite simply the UK will still have to comply with thousands of eu regs to continue trading.
All non-issue because UK can do that by themselves. As for complying with thousands of EU regs let the individual company deal with them.
The fiscal dumping and abuse of the fiscal freedom that EU states have to create a mountain range in the playing field rather than leveling it is my main gripe with the EU and the one that needs urgently fixing in my view.
There are many points I disagree with Jamba but his distrust of Junker and accusations of corruption are justified.
Getting international businesses to pay their tax where they make their profits is top of my list of necessary reforms. Edit: The EU needs fixing not scrapping.