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Some actual positive benefits?
Some way to give us back the freedom of movement that we lost?
You seem to forget that some of us really liked the ability to travel and work freely in the EU. You've taken that from us.
You really really don't get this at all, Jam. I believe in the concept of European cooperation. You cannot possibly convince me that taking Britain out of it is a good idea. We need a supranational organisation to do what short termist national governments will not do. You really think the UK government is going to commit to environmental legislation now?
You have no alternative to what the EU gave us.
I would think the 2020 GE will be all about the plan post Brexit, what global trade deals are we going after and if course immigration and visa policies.
You seem to forget that some of us really liked the ability to travel and work freely in the EU. You've taken that from us.
We may have a visa exchange with the EU which would likely mean any Brit wanting to go to Europe could. Junker et al could have given Cameron some real flex on immigrant benefits / numbers and Remain may well have won, the EU bet the ranch on Remain. As Niall Ferguson says, Cameron should probably have acknowledged he'd got nothing and campaigned to Leave.
So you asked what it would take to make me think it's a good idea?
A government committed to environmental policies
A government that works with its neighbours on what we ALL want and need
Preserved freedom of movement for me and my friends
Economic success
Close economic ties
Influence on the direction we all take
For the next 40 years and more
We may have a visa exchange with the EU which would likely mean any Brit wanting to go to Europe could.
We may, but we may not. We did though and you've chucked it all in the ****ing bin. Show me the positives, show me what we get for this loss?
Oh, and a country of open minded outward looking people, give me that too. And a country that hasn't told all is neighbours to **** off. I'd like that.
Also a country that hasn't lurched to the right in attitude...
which would likely mean any Brit wanting to go to Europe could.
🙄
Again, you can't guarantee this at this point in time, it's pure speculation.
It might mean that they could give each and every one of us £25.00 vouchers for a spa weekend with Myleene Klass. But I doubt it.
Currently Ican get in the car and drive throughout Europe without the need for any visa type agreement, and if I like the place I can find a job and start working. Just like moving from Manchester to London. You've decided to give all that up. Woo, and indeed, Hoo!
I wonder what it will take for the Remainers here to realise what a good decision a Leave vote was ?
Nothing as that would assume I share the same illiberal values as you and that is never going to happen.
This is about so much more than trade.
Edit: ^^ yes agreed, it's about much more than trade. It really is about control.
Visas. Of course it's speculation but quite a reasonable scenario.
Molgrips countries tend to move to the right in difficult economic times. When you look at the voting map basically London is "left" (Remain) and rest of England and Wales is "right" (Leave) then ? I predict there is much more of that to come in Europe in 2017. Merkel has said her immigrant/refugee policy was a mistake and is in the process of passing a law saying no unemployment benefits for EU citizens until they have been in Germany for 5 years.
Nipper we go round in circles on this sort of illiberal stuff. The EU freedom of movement is fundamentally discriminatory against citizens from the rest of the world for no good reason. Poland has refused to take any refugees as has Hungary. Switzerland pased a referendum saying no new Minarets (as I understand it there are only 4 mosques with Minarets in the country anyway).
Visas. Of course it's speculation but quite a reasonable scenario.
Which you, for some bizarre reason, say is a positive.
I could quite happily apply visas and get rid of the English from Wales, but I imagine there'd be a backlash.
Poland has refused to take any refugees
So rather than challenge this view, you have chosen to align yourself with this right wing view. And all the time pass yourself off as the voice of reason here.
Interesting.
Well I can't really let this gem pass
jambalaya - Member
I have emails from other members saying they don't understand how I can tolerate the abuse but frankly I don't even know aboit it as I don't read it. Just scroll on by.
Where is the abuse, some simple guidelines
If you claim something make sure it's actually backed up by facts
If your not then you use the [Personal Opinion or just made up stuff] tags
The UK doesn't discriminate against outside the EU it takes more migrants from outside than inside.
Those migrants are a positve to the UK.
I would think the 2020 GE will be all about the plan post Brexit, what global trade deals are we going after and if course immigration and visa policies.
Certainly but if you presented the options during the referendum then it would have gone a different way, all that was promised was lies and leave are running away from them faster than the car crash that is Brexit, any positive is used as a celebration of why brexit works, any negative is swiped away as irrelevant (like the Japanese banks - oh banks were leaving anyway). Missing the key points about why stuff isn't going massivly badly (ie We havn't left the EU yet) and basically bigging up how you won the argument rather than solved the problem.
oh and....
So, this is how the debate reads so far. I kid you not, it’s practically verbatim:Remainers (left holding the Brexit baby after the Leavers… left) “WTF?”
Leavers “We voted Brexit, now You Remainers need to implement it”
Remainers “But it’s not possible!”
Leavers “The People Have Spoken. Therefore it is possible. You just have to think positively.”
Remainers “And do what exactly?”
Leavers “Come up with a Plan that will leave us all better off outside the EU than in it”
Remainers “But it’s not possible!”
Leavers “Quit with the negative vibes. The People Have Spoken.”
Remainers “But even you don’t know how!”
Leavers “That’s your problem, we’ve done our bit and voted, we’re going to sit here and eat popcorn and watch as you do it.”
Remainers “Shouldn’t you do it?”
Leavers “It’s not up to us to work out the detail, it’s up to you experts.”
Remainers “I thought you’d had enough of experts”
Leavers “Remain experts.”
Remainers “There are no Leave experts”
Leavers “Then you’ll have to do it then. Oh, and by the way, no dragging your feet or complaining about it, because if you do a deal we don’t want, we’ll eat you alive.”
Remainers “But you don’t know what you want!”
Leavers “We want massive economic growth, no migration, free trade with the EU and every other country, on our terms, the revival of British industry, re-open the coal mines, tea and vicars on every village green, some bunting, and maybe restoration of the empire.”
Remainers “You’re delusional.”
Leavers “We’re a delusional majority. DEMOCRACY! So do the thing that isn’t possible, very quickly, and give all Leavers what they want, even though they don’t know what they want, and ignore the 16 million other voters who disagree. They’re tight trouser latte-sipping hipsters who whine all the time, who cares.”
The EU freedom of movement is fundamentally discriminatory against citizens from the rest of the world for no good reason.
Which makes as much sense as saying that allowing UK citizens to travel freely in the UK discriminates against non-UK citizens (I may have meant subjects).
It does. So what? Discrimination is normal - though undue discrimination clearly isn't, you will find all countries, all trade agreements, and most clubs are discriminatory. You're either in the club or you're not - some clubs (like the EU actually) have a form of associate membership.
And we've discussed previously how in a multinational era, we should be increasing freedom of movement and accepting countries as simple administrative boundaries (and ways of picking sporting teams). If Yorkshire and Lancashire can do it...
We will still be in the EU in 2020 🙂
Can't decide if this is thick racists or normal folk taking the mickey.
Either way it seems to check out as real.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/paul-golding-britain-first_uk_5856bc01e4b09b495cae4004?
#Here'sLaughingAtYouBrexy
[url= http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/business/bosses-to-carry-on-hiring-despite-fears-over-brexit-cvzz8msvb ]Carry on hiring[/url]
Carry on hiring
[cynic]What's the time period an employer has to fire someone without penalties?
What's the duration of the negotiation period after A50 has been triggered?[/cynic]
So rather than challenge this view, you have chosen to align yourself with this right wing view. And all the time pass yourself off as the voice of reason here.
Interesting.
Not at all, just pointing out that the EU is not the bastion of tolerance everyone here claims. Opinion poll in France was 80/20 for not allowing Turkey to join the EU. I have posted the list of Bukha ban countries a number of times. Many here see the EU as a brake on the Tories, I think thats a very misguided reason for voting Remain.
@igm there was a short thread on this, he was jailed for contempt of court and a page setup by anti-facist to donate to a refugee charity in his name
Not at all, just pointing out that the EU is not the bastion of tolerance everyone here claims. Opinion poll in France was 80/20 for not allowing Turkey to join the EU. I have posted the list of Bukha ban countries a number of times. Many here see the EU as a brake on the Tories, I think thats a very misguided reason for voting Remain.
Poland =/= EU. 😉
This is where you lose credibility. Or have you decided that the minority has now become the voice of the majority? 😛
Where is the abuse, some simple guidelines
Well the people emailing me (4 or 5) think it's abuse and I am aware of other STWers who have made reports to mods about it and people have been banned. I told the mods I mostly ignore it and I thought they had better things to do.
Not at all, just pointing out that the EU is not the bastion of tolerance everyone here claims. Opinion poll in France was 80/20 for not allowing Turkey to join the EU.
Hang on. You're taking about the *population* of France, we're talking about the EU as a concept.
I have posted the list of Bukha ban countries a number of times.
But I thought EU member states had no control and couldn't make laws?
Opinion poll in France was 80/20 for not allowing Turkey to join the EU.
Is anyone talking about Turkey joining TODAY?
I doubt you will find any country in Europe who will be happy to have Erdogan's Turkey in the EU. Now go forward 50 years, far beyond voters attention spans and the situation may be very different.
And just because you don't like where you are doesn't mean you can't talk about tomorrow and where you might be.
Yes, that is the case once we stop paying into EU.
Why do you think otherwise?
Oh I dunno. Maybe because the people responsible for that "implication" backed down afterwards and said maybe they shouldn't have used that particular stunt.
jambalaya - Member
@igm there was a short thread on this, he was jailed for contempt of court and a page setup by anti-facist to donate to a refugee charity in his name
Must have missed it at the time. Not quite as you described it - close though. If you check the article out and follow it through it is very funny though.
Now I'm not saying all Brexies are thick or all are racist. But, as I am sure you agree, some are most definitely both.
My point on Burkhas and Turkey was that Remainers keep saying the Leave vote shows we are "racsist and inward looking" yet there are strong opinions on issues throughout Europe.
My point on Burkhas and Turkey was that Remainers keep saying the Leave vote shows we are "racsist and inward looking" yet there are strong opinions on issues throughout Europe.
A rogue copper kills and ambassador and you label the whole of Turkey!
You can't deal with people who wear burkhas (sic) and the whole religion!
It beggars belief that you've got the balls to write that down. But fair play publically admitting your xenophobia and racism and standing by it. 😯
My point on Burkhas and Turkey was that Remainers keep saying the Leave vote shows we are "racsist and inward looking" yet there are strong opinions on issues throughout Europe.
Nooot quite.
Many leavers are racist and inward looking.
Most are probably pretty uninformed on the issues.
But not all leavers are racist, clearly.
Also the existence of even more racist people elsewhere does not make British racists any less so.
Jeez... im a remianer, and I don't think turkey is fit to join the eu, (all members can veto applications don't forget)...my nan was convinced turkey was joining the EU ...
It's not fit as it has corporal punishment for a start..
It beggars belief that you've got the balls to write that down. But fair play publically admitting your xenophobia and racism and standing by it.
I think you have confused stupidity with balls
H eis does espouse some views on islam that are clearly in the ball park of irrational racist
Speaking of views across Europe (including of course the UK)...
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/12/support-for-european-union-has-grown-since-brexit
Make of it what you will.
You can't deal with people who wear burkhas (sic) and the whole religion!
It beggars belief that you've got the balls to write that down. But fair play publically admitting your xenophobia and racism and standing by it.
WTF are you on about ?
My post on Turkey had and has nothing to do with the shooting. The French opinion poll was just that. The Bukha ban shows intolerance is stronger in Europe than in the UK. Both those show the poseters that suggest the UK has demonstrated its xenophobic/racists etc are talking rubbish. The Swiss even voted to ban new Minaretes. The opinion in the UK is more tolerant than that in Europe.
yep , someone got their comments mixed up .
There seems to be some confusion about race and religion here. And between common sense laws about being identifiable in a public place that exist and supposed anti-religious laws that don't exist.
igm - Member
Speaking of views across Europe (including of course the UK)...https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/12/support-for-european-union-has-grown-since-brexit
Make of it what you will.
[b]"But a new study by the [u]German-based Bertelsmann Foundation[/u] offers a very different view."[/b]
^^^ talking about in the face straight bias big time ... 😆
Sure they did provide different views, sure they did ... 😛
Actually if they pay me I can do a survey for them if they wish and I can proof to them that then entire UK population beg for forgiveness and want to join EU again ...
jambalaya - Member
WTF are you on about ?
I think they got too emotional .... 😆
You have my apologies.
But you're still a xenophobe. 😆
Chewkw - just wondering did you note whether they were accurate previously? The article does talk about that a little and they seem to have got the Brexit numbers right. No reason to believe they're wrong now.
Calm down a little and think.
Noted Captain with a resigned shake of the head re the xenophobe comment
CNN poll. We'd still vote Leave and we don't want another Referendum on the final deal. Very interesting age split on whether people think Brexit will make them worse off.
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/12/19/europe/cnn-brexit-poll/index.html
47/45 still sounds resounding.
Personally more information is needed from the Government on what they actually mean. Also some robust challenges to the soundbites
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38368920
She promised a "calm and measured approach", adding: "It remains my objective to give reassurance early on in the negotiations to EU citizens living in the UK and UK citizens living in EU countries that their right to stay where they have made their homes will be protected by our withdrawal."
The government has faced calls from across the House to guarantee the right of EU nationals to remain in the UK after Brexit.
But it insists this must form part of a reciprocal arrangement also protecting the status of UK expats living in other European countries.
Hard to achieve as the EU side of things needs agreeing by all of them as part of the final package. Not sure how she plans to achive this.
The PM also said she would start the UK's exit from the EU on time, regardless of next month's Supreme Court verdict on whether Parliament must be consulted.
She has promised to give notice of the UK's departure under Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty before the end of March.
And she did not rule out the UK continuing to pay contributions to the EU after leaving.
Responding to Conservative MP Philip Davies' request for a "pledge" that no more contributions would be made, she said: "When we leave, people want to ensure that it's the British government that dictates how taxpayers' money is spent."
So planning to ignore paliament and the supreme court? I think that gets you the tower!!
But still budget contributions to continue probably well maybe.
Pay for Trade?
Mr Corbyn said members of the government front bench were giving "mixed messages" on the UK's departure from the EU, including on whether a transitional deal will be needed to cover trade arrangements before all the talks have been completed.
There are a "babble of voices speaking for themselves and their vested interests" the Labour leader said, asking the PM to "represent all sides, whether they voted to leave or remain".
Again no real plan, no real lines in the sand etc.
On the subject of surveys, there was one last week (posted in here) that people were not willing to accept a Brexit that left them worse off with UKIP supporters being the least willing to be worse off so that doesn't tie in with the happiness to be worse off in the CNN poll.
On their figures very interesting that you have to get over 45 to get a majority (just) so by threir own figures those that really wanted it are those that will be impacted the least over time (unless they need to cash their pensions out at the wrong time)
That comres poll while highlighting the age split wasn't able to also show the earnings split, and IME just as important.
The only Leavers I know of are on the whole older, or poorer or less educated.
IMO we're still been shafted by folk who expect us to pay them a living, and who won't be doing anything economically to assist... depressing.
Jamba - another day another poll. None of which quite agree, but on average there does seem to be a softening of support for Brexit.
The demographic isn't new, but is interesting I agree. The question is how do you interpret it.
- Gary was right, by the time the post-Brexit deals are done the Brexit majority will be dead?
- Those who remember pre-EU/EEC/etc know it was good? (you'd have to be over 65 for that really)
- People get nostalgic/reactionary with age?
- People with less remaining in Britain's future voted leave?
- People more likely to live in benefits voted leave?
- People more likely to use (not fund) the NHS voted leave?
All possible, but who knows.
The government position has certainly changed.
Even the 3 Brexiters now admit the UK Will have to pay into the EU budget to satisfy businesses.
"IMO we're still been shafted by folk who expect us to pay them a living, and who won't be doing anything economically to assist... depressing"
Who you talking about? It can't be the OAP's that have had their contributions wasted on the the education of the terminally ungrateful. After all they've paid up as requested and it's your turn.
Were you thinking of anyone else with the above comment?
OAPs are the greatest recipients of state funding. And that state pension - paid for out of current tax receipts not contributions made by said OAPs at some point in the past. So yes young workers fund the old pensioners.
Very few folk pay in as much as they take out of the state. Go check the numbers if you don't believe me.
Graduates are probably most likely to pay in more than that take out.
OAPs - not quite benefits junkies, but not far off.
Noted Captain with a resigned shake of the head re the xenophobe comment
Stop posting xenophobic bullcrap without calling it out. Stop using sweeping generalisations. Stop being xenophobic. You've got a lot of work to do to convince me that you're not. If you are not a xenophobe, stop acting like one!
Received this morning 😆
[img] 
[/img]
Ooowwww it's the same colour as that bus that people seem to want to write out of history 🙂
@igm just trying to get br to justify and be more specific about his comments. I know how the state pension system operates.
Given that graduates become OAP's are they "not quite benefit junkies" also? To bemoan our OAP's for taking what is due to them for their contribution is a tad unfair. They voted the wrong way for some, shall we punish them by stopping their pensions? We need to fund them and the generations to follow will need to fund us (fingers crossed on that). What ever the figures say about OAP wealth at present, there are still a lot of proper poor old folk out there.
Given the low net contributors to the tax take by the working population a good portion of us are taking but not giving back.
Interesting and a bit depressing to read the press coverage of May's testimony today. They really just seem to write what they want independent of what she was really saying.
@Captain you've made your mind up so why would I spend any effort trying to persuade you. I am a true internationalist, I want everyone in the world to have the same access to our country. I want us to have an approach to immigration which is consistent to the rest of the world and not the outlier which is the EU.
I am a true internationalist, I want everyone in the world to have the same access to our country.
Hmm. The thing is though that not all other countries are the same. We have very different relationships with them all. So why would we treat them the same?
So she is now saying that she will reveal her plans in a speech in the new year.
Not really in line with what Davies said last week?
I am a true internationalist, I want everyone in the world to have the same access to our country. I want us to have an approach to immigration which is consistent to the rest of the world and not the outlier which is the EU.
Do you know, I probably agree with that statement, but my interpretation is that the way to achieve it is to slowly increase the number of countries whose populations have free access and to which our population has free access.
I think trying to leave a reasonably successful model of how to do it and slam closed the gates so that only the privileged can gain access through the visa system is a retrograde step - though admittedly it appears the folk of Lincolnshire are campaigning to have immigration reinstated for fruit picking when they realised they might have to do it themselves.
Jamba, I think you may be a secret remainer.
though admittedly it appears the folk of Lincolnshire are campaigning to have immigration reinstated for fruit picking when they realised they might have to do it themselves.
****ing lol.
Let them pick their own fruit. That was the whole point wasn't it?
Jamba, I think you may be a secret remainer.
This is very probable, any arguments to the contrary are, at a basic level, silly. No one in their right mind would still be pursuing them or even tring to promote them. Same goes for slamming a whole religion because of a few extremists whose actions are not representative of said religion.
Given the low net contributors to the tax take by the working population a good portion of us are taking but not giving back.
Speak for yourself mt. Net contributor here.
Ooowwww it's the same colour as that bus that people seem to want to write out of history
Unless like chewkw you actually believe it.
Oh and I agree with ign in that jamba's initial comment seems laudable but the means to achieve it laughable.
slowoldman - Member
Ooowwww it's the same colour as that bus that people seem to want to write out of history
Unless like chewkw you actually believe it.
Ya, just different perspectives in what we disagree innit. 🙄
[quote=mt ]Given the low net contributors to the tax take by the working population a good portion of us are taking but not giving back.Only if you believe that the only way of "giving" is by paying tax.
Today we had some old dears in the shop and they were talking about disciplining their grandchildren . One of them piped up that she voted brexit so that she would have the right to smack her grandchildren.
Guess it's to be expected.
Surveys suggested Brexies also believe in hanging and public flogging. Or was that old Etonians - I forget.
@scout routes, we were talking about tax so whatever else you do that's generous but back to tax.
@img, I was using the collective population we. Some people would be very surprised to find how much of there paying work is in some way paid for/subsidised by the state, what ever their personal tax paid.
In some areas of the country less than 25% of the working population are net contributors, potentially if things don't go well they'll also be "benefit junkies".
In a free Yorkshire they'll be none of these problems.
mt - I know, and I agree.
As for free Yorkshire, I want to know your immigrant policy on Scots higher rate tax payers who've lived in Yorkshire for 24 years, married to a lass from other side of the Pennines, with two sons born in York. I'm expecting something liberal.
Jamba, I think you may be a secret remainer.
As I posted before I have akways believed in a free trade zone and 25-30yrs ago was a big supporter of the EEC and even thought we should consider joining the euro. It's really post Maastricht and Lisbon that things have gone really bad, that plus the significant expansion which has caused the freedom of movement policy to break under the strain.
I wonder what the atmosphere is like in Italy post Berlin ? There is a strong anti-migrant sentiment there but as the people are mostly from Africa they have not had the same terrorist threat as far as I know.
It's really post Maastricht and Lisbon that things have gone really bad, that plus the significant expansion which has caused the freedom of movement policy to break under the strain.I wonder what the atmosphere is like in Italy post Berlin ? There is a strong anti-migrant sentiment there but as the people are mostly from Africa they have not had the same terrorist threat as far as I know.
It's been a common theme to link freedom of movement with movement of migrants, yes schengen has allowed migrants to move between nations but it's a completely different thing to freedom of movement especially as the UK is concearned with border points and ID checks at every port and airport. Yes you could try and smuggle yourself into Brighton beach but it's not really the same.
As for the fear of terrorism it's simply that, the fear far outweighs the risk.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-15/should-we-be-most-concerned-about-cars-planes-or-terrorists/8122956
"Terrorism, in a way it's a tricky thing because you don't know what the future will bring and situations can change," Professor Rosenthal said."But one example I give is if you look at the 9/11 terrorism attacks ... in the month of September 2001 more people in the United States were killed in ordinary car crashes than were killed in the 9/11 attacks."
Professor Rosenthal said sales of anxiety medication rose in the US after the attacks and he knew one couple who made the decision to get married because they feared the threat of terrorism.
"As far as what your fear is, if you're just a random person living in the United States even in 9/11 — the worst terrorist attacks in the history of of the United States — your chance of being killed in a car accident were higher than if you were killed by terrorists," he said.
In a similar way the US has a much higher rate of good old Americans shooting each other than terrorism.
He said from a purely statistical point of view, people should be more concerned about heart disease than car accidents."[I'm] sceptical in a way, in the sense that when I hear something whether it is in the newspaper or what somebody said, I will say, 'Wait a minute, show me the facts'."
"People will say crime is increasing when it turns out it isn't; something is dangerous when it is not."
Also with migration and terrorism it's worth remembering that a significant number of the recent attackers in France and Belgium were locally born or raised with local passports so freedom of movement really had no bearing on it.
@igm, you an yer family can live in Yorkshire, tha taxes will be welcome, plus you'll need to buy round in every pub . Yorkshire don't do liberal, sept in the posh parts Sheffield. To fit in tha'll ave t work on the bigotry, think of it as being like tj but without the facts.
[quote="molgrips"]
Oh, and a country of open minded outward looking people, give me that too. And a country that hasn't told all is neighbours to **** off. I'd like that.
Also a country that hasn't lurched to the right in attitude...
Move to scotland?
I have more or less given up on this thread however flicking thru it theis morning I saw some discussion on Jamba getting abuse.
Nothing I have seen really breaks the rules however he is on the receiving end of a fair amount of flak and takes it well for which he can be commended.
Nothing I have seen really breaks the rules however he is on the receiving end of a fair amount of flak and takes it well for which he can be commended.
Indeed. And Hitler painted nice watercolours. Your point?
"Indeed. And Hitler painted nice watercolours." This is outrageous and just the sort of comment one would expect from a remoaner. Always new they were part of an attempt to build a 4th Reich.
We'll ave none o that "nice watercolours" in a free Yorkshire. If you can't knock up a picture like Hockney then tha clear off.
Nothing I have seen really breaks the rules however he is on the receiving end of a fair amount of flak and takes it well for which he can be commended.
He is on his own in his position nd it'll always look pointed, chewkw is just trolling and ninfan posts irrelevant stuff. It's Jamba who comes back time and time again trying to defend his ridiculous viewpoint. I think he should be called out for what he is. A hypocrit, a xenophobe, a wannabe xenophobe or just devil's advocate. But posting xenophobic articles, or stuff which he aligns himself with is always going to attract attention.
He's also just wrong.
EDIT: I also see another side of the immigrant/refugee and indeed islamist terrorist argument and feel that Jamba would benefit massively by experiencing this (part of the real world) rather than spouting from what appears to be a priviledged, cossetted position.
Ah, the privilege card....
It's really post Maastricht and Lisbon that things have gone really bad, that plus the significant expansion which has caused the freedom of movement policy to break under the strain.
So your answer in the face of a problem is simply to walk away? Into nothing?
That's equivalent to simply getting in your car and driving off when your marriage hits difficulties.
I quite agree Captain - I merely commended him for taking the flak well rather than flouncing or going into attackmode or being unpleasant and snidy
😀
They voted the wrong way for some, shall we punish them by stopping their pensions? We need to fund them and the generations to follow will need to fund us (fingers crossed on that). What ever the figures say about OAP wealth at present, there are still a lot of proper poor old folk out there.
Here we have a VAST problem, the SO works in a care home, they have very few UK staff, the area i live in has very low unemployment for a starter. Remove expat workers and they will have insufficient staff even taking on agency staff is not really an option as most of them are also expats.
You could argue raise the salaries and get more staff that way. But if there are no unemployed those bodies have to come from somewhere, it also increases the costs of the elderly on the workers.
Throw in to the mix the fact that the UK birthrate is below replacement. There is a huge problem. The elderly now won't have to face the worst of it. It is those who voted remain who will suffer be the ones who are really shafted.
Yup, aging population means we need more immigrants, yet aging population also means political climate is more anti-immigrant.
I can't square that circle for you, sorry.
In some areas of the country less than 25% of the working population are net contributors, potentially if things don't go well they'll also be "benefit junkies".
Most of you are spongers:
"the top 40pc of households, ranked by earnings, carried the burden. The lower-earning 60pc are net beneficiaries of the system, taking more back in benefits than they contribute in the many forms of tax to which we are all subject.
The point at which a household switches from being an overall “taker” to a “giver” is where disposable income, after all taxes and benefits are taken into account, passes a threshold of about £27,000, Smith & Williamson found. This would be where a household’s gross income fell somewhere between £35,000 and £38,000."
"the top 40pc of households, ranked by earnings, carried the burden. The lower-earning 60pc are net beneficiaries of the system, taking more back in benefits than they contribute in the many forms of tax to which we are all subject.
The point at which a household switches from being an overall “taker” to a “giver” is where disposable income, after all taxes and benefits are taken into account, passes a threshold of about £27,000, Smith & Williamson found. This would be where a household’s gross income fell somewhere between £35,000 and £38,000."
those figures have been disputed they also take no account of the fact that people's value to a society is much more than their financial contributions and end up costing the state much more if they werent doing them- eg street cleaners not there, rubbish piling up, disease epidemics, plague, pestilence etc