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I voted on a matter of principal
Me too!
For me, the principle of integration and co-operation with our neighbours is important. Allowing people to come and go easily without having to formally apply for visas and such, to me that's valuable.
It's like when you have friends and family come over to your house and they don't need to knock, they can just come in and say hi. This to me feels good. And if more people come, you don't sit there and bitch about them, you find room. I feel as if we've just shut the door in our friends' faces.
I'm sure leavers will try and extend this analogy by claiming there are hundreds of people walking into their house and eating all the food - but this isn't happening.
The telegraph is slipping over towards the hysterical mail / express / sun type of content. Can anyone recommend another source that will give me a view of the more informed and considered Conservative (and also Leave) arguments and opinions?
My serious suggestion, and google translate is your friend if your langauge skills aren't great.
Read overseas coverage. they will have there own biases, but it gives some background as to how others see brexit and how much they (don't) care.
So - what is this going to do to the price of bike parts from people like bike-discount.de?
I doubt you'll be shopping there in 3 years' time.
The [s]telegraph[/s] Brexshit Bugle is slipping over towards the hysterical mail / express / sun type of content.
Which is shame because their cryptic crossword if more accessible to my mind than the Dirty Digger's version
Given the obvious harm that Brexshit is causing the investment management community - which will get passed on to us in the end - I am still reeling from Jambas assessment!!
I quite like the Washington Post and the South China Morning Post for alternative perspectives.
Compare Jamaba's picture of what Brexit will look like with those of the deluded "Lexit" persuasion, and it is clear that the Leave vote gave no mandate "for" anything… it was just a vote against the status quo, not the country choosing its future.
Time for our government, and our opposition party, to start setting out where we can go next… and put it to a public vote. Vagueness and lack of oversight and accountability is running amock at the moment, on both sides.
😯Ben Bradshaw, the Labour former culture secretary, is speaking now. He says if the west does not do anything about Aleppo, Idlib would be next.He says the government could have come to the Commons to ask for approval for safe zones in Syria. But it did nothing, he says.
He says dictators like Assad and Putin only respect strength, and the threat of force.
He says the west has not even “begun to wake up” to what Russia is doing with cyberhacking.
The evidence is now available about Russian intervention in the American elections, he says. [b]And he says it is “highly probable” that Russia also intervened in the EU referendum, he says.[/b]
The Front National in France recently had financial difficulties. They had to borrow money from Russia.
So no surprise that they might be involved in Brexit.
And he says it is “highly probable” that Russia also intervened in the EU referendum, he says.
Hmm.. so.. what could we pin on Russians during the leave campaign? Farage might've had their money maybe...?
Farage and Putin are the same person? I've certainly never been in the same room as both of them at any time - have you?
tinfoil hat time but I love this quote
Tax-dodging sex-pest Aaron Banks
http://www.farrigh****ch.org/2016/05/the-ukip-russia-connection-is-someone.html
They had to borrow money from Russia.
None of the French banks who FN would prefer to borrow from will deal with them (not least due to state ownership at a number of them), so they use the Russians.
People seem very anti Russia with regards to politics but many are very happy to fall over themselves to buy Gas from them under lucrative long term contracts, as much pork as they can and even sell them state of the art military warships.
Remain had a humogous financial and rescources advantage and still lost 🙂
@kimbers I see Putin supposedly funds Syriza in Greece, they are good guys right ?
and of course Putin has allegedly been funding/using other far right groups accross Europe, not just UKIP
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-38294204
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38289421
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jambalaya - Member
@kimbers I see Putin supposedly funds Syriza in Greece, they are good guys right
Fits in perfectly with his non-linear war according to Adam Curtis
I can understand that brexiters (or Trumpers)wouldnt want to admit to being dupes of Putin, tho
todays jambyfact was rather trivial compared to your usual offerings , you feeling ok?
Using official figures from the Electoral Commission, The Guardian estimates that the combined total given to both sides is around £28m, with Leave receiving £4m more than Remain, primarily from Tory donors.
So along with **** wits , Murdoch, farage and Trump , leavers are on the side of putin.
Is that really a team sensible, rational people would be keen to associate with?
i am not even sure they want to be associated with jamby 😛
who wins if the EU breaks up? Think about it, it certainly isn't the citizens. The only "winners" are those with money and power already. Putin certainly would be one winner.
MrMo I'd argue collectively all the member countries citizens would win if the EU returned to an economic community. There are many French and Italians who believe they'd be better off without the € a decent number of Germans too
Kimbers that guy is allegedly a hit man, seems a bit careless though that a Russian hitman would leave a usb drive with his name and a load of nazi photos at the scene of a hit in Tutkey ?
Indeed it's almost as if Putin is mocking us, he'll be leaving trails of radioactive poison across London next
Of course he could just be using really stupid violent nationalist biker gangs to do his dirty work
It's been a stupendous year for Putin, he has secured his strategic naval base in Syria, held on to Crimea and Donbask, the refugee crisis from the war has destabilised Europe the US president elect is disparaging about NATO and is installing a cabinet of russophiles and his strongest critic in the EU has voted to leave it, seriously weakening the entire institution......
MrMo I'd argue collectively all the member countries citizens would win if the EU returned to an economic community. There are many French and Italians who believe they'd be better off without the € a decent number of Germans too
Is that simply because they had to declare the cash they had hidden from the tax man and as a result a purely selfish motive.
How do you think the other [s]25[/s] [s]24[/s] [s]25[/s] member states feel?
I can think of another reason that affected many that could be cited as a negative for the Euro, but is also a selfish point of view.
French and Italians want to borrow more than euro membership allows. Italians would like to devalue too to kickstart their economy. Germans fed up with everyone over borrowing and asking for (expecting) loans to bail them out.
The italians aways want to borrow and devalue, it has never worked yet!
French and Italians want to borrow more than euro membership allows. Italians would like to devalue too to kickstart their economy. Germans fed up with everyone over borrowing and asking for (expecting) loans to bail them out.
You've confused me again, if eveyone is over borrowing, how is it that France and Italy are pissed off because they can't overborrow? Surely they're part of the everyone overborrowing group and therefore able to borrow more than Euro membership will allow. Or they can't overborrow because because the Euro membership won't allow it.
Can you make your mind up, please?
Jamba - out of interest...
...if it was to be and economic community in the future (where that is impossible or not) would that change your views on membership?jambalaya - Member
MrMo I'd argue collectively all the member countries citizens would win if the EU returned to an economic community. There are many French and Italians who believe they'd be better off without the € a decent number of Germans too
Serious question. Of course a fair number of Britons are happy not to have the euro too - I like the concept of a common currency but can't help feeling you need to go federal to make it work.
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/13/urgent-brexit-deal-needed-to-avert-banking-job-losses-peers-to-warn ]lol yeah don't hold yer breath as Moe, Curly and Larry try and work out how to get their cake and eat it.[/url]
Crikey are those reminders still holding everyone back by using their crystal ball prediction scaremongering tactics? 😛
Give it up man coz planet earth is still round ... 😆
...if it was to be and economic community in the future (where that is impossible or not) would that change your views on membership?
Serious question. Of course a fair number of Britons are happy not to have the euro too - I like the concept of a common currency but can't help feeling you need to go federal to make it work.
EEC yes I always said I would support a free trade zone with no Parliament, no (very limited) budget etc - sort of a cut down EEC. We just signed up to the pan European Patents programme (ok with me), I'd have no issue with a European Court determining trade disputes.
Single currency - yes to make it work you need something close to a superstate (even with banking union it's not enough)
So, the bit that bugs you is the democratic part?
kelvin - Member
So, the bit that bugs you is the democratic part?
I thought we just voted to leave so are we going to vote again? 😛
So, the bit that bugs you is the democratic part?
The EU Parliament is not an example of effective democracy.
The italians aways want to borrow and devalue, it has never worked yet!
Actually I would say it worked well for them in the past just as it has for the Brits and Yanks recently..but that was before they put on the Euro straight jacket.
PS I am a remainer.
Possibly. But referenda certainly aren't.jambalaya - Member
The EU Parliament is not an example of effective democracy.
Hopefully not. See above.chewkw - Member
I thought we just voted to leave so are we going to vote again?
Jamba - what is undemocratic about the EU? all decision are taken either by elected members or delegates provided by elected parliaments.
No church leaders get a voice as of right. Nobody gets a voice because they are the descendents of invading french warlords. You cannot get a majority without a majority of votes. Its far more democratic than the UK parliament
As for the Italian, La Lira was always in trouble and devalued.
No change there.
Jamba - what is undemocratic about the EU? all decision are taken either by elected members or delegates provided by elected parliaments.
'Beware of the Leopard'
You can't even accuse him of being a little Englander...
Précis please ninfan. I can't be watching every clip that gets stuck up on here.
Ninfan is referring to the fact that the TTIP documents were originally only allowed to be read in an eyes-only way in a 'reading room' in Brussels, readers were heavily monitored, forbidden from speaking about them.
Later, some regional reading rooms were opened; Germany had one (IIRC), and I think the UK got one later.
All true. Whats also true is that, in the UK, may parties were in favour of it:
http://www.waronwant.org/media/ttip-and-2015-election-where-do-parties-stand
The EU Parliament is not an example of effective democracy.
Which parliament would you hold up as a shining beacon of democracy?
I think we can guess what parliament kippers want to rule Europe...
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FFS, in the grander scheme of things, does this matter. The EU Parliament has a limited impact on our lives outside environment (generally +ve impact), agriculture and external trade. The usual Brexshit tactic of confusing twigs and trees!
[quote="slowoldman"]
Which parliament would you hold up as a shining beacon of democracy?
Holyrood ain't bad. Unicameral. mostly proportional ( all proportional systems have some disadvantages - our are High threshold for representation and some odd outcomes around marginal majorities.)
All expenses published, no buying of property on expenses, decent system of petitions being discussed in the chamber. consensus and non adversarial in design ( ruined by labour antics) ( so little corruption / revolving door to industry)
since its been established we have had representation from hard left groups, greens, pensioner activists and single issue activists as well as the usual parties.
It ain't perfect but its far more democratic than Westminster
David Davies before the House Committee on Brexit. 2hrs if you have the time. I thought it was useful to hear first hand the Q&A. I am sure there will be some newspaper coverage
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/dec/14/letter-to-nissan-about-brexit-could-be-made-public-mps-are-told?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter ]https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/dec/14/letter-to-nissan-about-brexit-could-be-made-public-mps-are-told?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter[/url]
so soft brexit is the plan then.
isnt the summary: a transition period is on the cards (while the fudge is setting)?
Letter reassured carmaker the government would try to secure tariff-free access to single market, says business secretary
Maybe if they went for the ability for people to travel and work in Europe too?
How could they do that?
I know, stop wasting so much money pissing about trying to get the best deal and stay in Europe you stupid F@@@@ing idiots. The rest of Europe won't play ball to any UK demands. Uk said leave so Europe says go, quickly, and close the door on the way out.
I'm in Austria and people here cannot believe how stupid the British are to vote for such sillyness.
it all points to a Norway model .
if so, not worth all the aggro at all - lots of crap for a worse outcome. Bravo les Brexshiteers
I'm in Austria and people here cannot believe how stupid the British are to vote for such sillyness.
I'll add to that list. People I've spoken to about britex, who cannot believe how stupid the British are to vote for such silliness, include nationals from:
France
Austria
USA
Polland
Italy
Australia
Germany
Norway
Romania
Hungary
The French were particularly incensed and said they would not visit the UK again.
The hotel I'm staying in tonight appears to have lost the Eastern European bar/restaurant staff and replaced them with Brits. The service was so poor that I might just stop using the place, I'll see what they say in the morning.
Welcome to the future.
But us British are all much smarter than foreigners, that's literally the whole point of the brexit mentality
But us British are all much smarter than foreigners, that's literally the whole point of the brexit mentality
So smart that not one wanted an electricians apprenticeship at Granada Studios recently.
fourbanger - Member
I'm in Austria and people here cannot believe how stupid the British are to vote for such sillyness.I'll add to that list. People I've spoken to about britex, who cannot believe how stupid the British are to vote for such silliness, include nationals from:
France
Austria
USA
Polland
Italy
Australia
Germany
Norway
Romania
HungaryThe French were particularly incensed and said they would not visit the UK again.
Ya, the people you have spoken to are very secluded aren't they to say such things about British voters. They only need to look at their own backyard to see themselves ... 😆
A few giggles,thanks.
Ya, the people you have spoken to are very secluded aren't they to say such things about British voters. They only need to look at their own backyard to see themselves ...
All countries have a huge section of voters who'll grab hold of nativism at all costs, but we're the laughing stock because MOST[b]*[/b] of our voters have done that. Of course, the same may well happen all over Europe soon, not that it would be any consolation to feel less alone in this.
[b]*[/b][i]Assuming that is that we're still pretending the "do right by the NHS" voters didn't exist, and weren't conned.[/i]
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-davis-article-50-stopped-brexit-latest-select-committee-a7475231.html ]having second thoughts or just making it up as you go along ?[/url]
The leavers have got to accept - the Norway model or a soft leave is not going to happen unless the government agree free movement of people - and if they do accept free movement why bother leaving?
it gets worse for Maggie Mayhem, theres probably 80 or so Tory back benchers who not keen on the Norway option. Could get quite comical if they do get to vote on whether to invoke 50.
The leavers have got to accept - the Norway model or a soft leave is not going to happen unless the government agree free movement of people - and if they do accept free movement why bother leaving?
See it's not part of the plan, those thins TJ are called "details" and are not important. The only thing that matters is leaving the EU.
From klunk's linkIn the wide-ranging hearing, Mr Davis went on to rule out publishing Ms May’s promised plan for Brexit in January – telling MPs it would take longer to draw up.
DD freely admits they have no plan, like the longest list of homework excuses it keeps coming, the only aim is to tick the not in the EU box. Nobody has thought much further ahead, hence the desire to implement A50 ASAP, once it's done (well er maybe not sure nobody agree's - see link) then it's done and we have to move along with it and accept whatever comes out way. Makes negotiations much easier when you have nothing to do but supply your own lube.
kelvin - Member
All countries have a huge section of voters who'll grab hold of nativism at all costs, but we're the laughing stock because MOST* of our voters have done that. Of course, the same may well happen all over Europe soon, not that it would be any consolation to feel less alone in this.*Assuming that is that we're still pretending the "do right by the NHS" voters didn't exist, and weren't conned.
They just refuse to accept that the concept of EU is very near to the expiry date due to the inevitable cycle of change, but yet they hang on as if this is something new. Most of their politicians are completely out of touch with a big chunk of their own people anyway so denial is the best policy for them waving the EU flag ... blame the EU flag say them coz they are just following the EU rules. 😆
*Assuming that is that we're still pretending the "do right by the NHS" voters didn't exist, and weren't conned.
NHS is still "sustainable" for the moment but at one point this system will definitely break because it is becoming too large to manage.
… if they do accept free movement why bother leaving?
Because claims have been made that there are loads of advantages to Leaving, it's not just about immigrants, honest Guv.
NHS is still "sustainable" for the moment but at one point this system will definitely break….
People were encouraged to vote Leave to fund the NHS and save it, by people who think It should be dismantled. It is why I use the word "conned" freely as regards this, a word I normally resist using when it comes to politics.
kelvin - Member
NHS is still "sustainable" for the moment but at one point this system will definitely break….People were encouraged to vote Leave to fund the NHS and save it, by people who think It should be dismantled.
It why I use the word "conned" freely as regard this, which I normally resist using when it comes to politics.
You can blame anyone or everyone until your heart content it Will still break coz ALL are bankrupt of ideas when it comes to NHS.
This system is also near the expiry date but perhaps not as bad the EU bureaucratic system.
NHS is too large to manage so the norm is just to keep patching the system as we go coz that is the way forward. Unless someone can think of an alternative system that is not politically toxic.
it all points to a Norway model
Can we have Norway's parliament too? Or just invite them in to take over?
IMO Nissan where promised very little and indeed Davies said today it would have been illegal to promise to compensate them for any future tariffs. What the Guardian says is that the Government was aiming for tariff free access to the single market for cars and components.
[b]The Indy piece bears very little correlation to the 2 hours of David Davies's evidence today.[/b] What Davies said is that A50 itself is quite undefined (it's not even clear how long and in what form the letter will be) but it was clear once it's triggered we would not be calling a stop to it, the electorate wanted us out of the EU by 2019 ie before the next election even if there was a transition arrangement thereafter. He reiterated he wasn't saying we would do such a transition agreement just not ruling it out.
As Davies said today people need to understand you can access tariff free markets without being a member of THE single market as defined by the EU. He made it clear there would be various important areas which would change including fisheries and agriculture (I understood this to mean there would be reduced access to UK fisheries and changes to food import/export tariffs)
There was quite a bit of discussion around the customs union, for example Turkey has customs union access for certain products and Gibralter, IOM, Jersey and Guernsey are outside the customs union.
IMO there will absolutely not be freedom of movement of people.
Davies would not be drawn on whether the plan would a white paper or something much more simple. He also said it would be published in time for Parliamentary scruitiny but not for full committee review. He said the plan would lay out a number of options but it would do nothing which would compromise the UK's negotiating position. Personally I am expecting something pretty general.
Given the press above it just reminds me it's best to listen to the actual testimony than the press write up.
EU seems to be in a real muddle. There is an EU Comission negotiator, an EU Parliament negotiator and then many amongst the 27 want to be directly involved. Draft press release from upcoming dinner is a clear attempt by the Commission to grasp control at the expense of the Parliament and member states.
the electorate wanted us out of the EU by 2019 ie before the next election even if there was a transition arrangement thereafter. He reiterated he wasn't saying we would do such a transition agreement just not ruling it out.
Extrapolation? The question was leave the EU or Stay not impose timescales.
As Davies said today people need to understand you can access tariff free markets without being a member of THE single market as defined by the EU.
Yep, though that does generally come with the acceptance of Freedom of movement
There is an EU Comission negotiator, an EU Parliament negotiator and then many amongst the 27 want to be directly involved.
It requires a qualified majority vote from the EU to accept the terms of the UK's exit. If not it's the blank page of Rest of World with no deals. All 27 should be involved in some way, if they speak through a central mouthpice then fine but they need to have their concearns addressed and met before being asked to vote on it.
Do you really believe that Jamba - that nissen were not promised large sums of compensation?
NHS isn't too large to manage, its too underfunded. Easy fix. HTH
The NHS does present a lot of complex management issues not all of which can be fixed by more funding
It's the 5th larges employer in the world
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_employers
To manage such a diverse and complex organisation requires skill and strategy along with long term certainty. Underfunding is causing issues that will not be fixed by [b][i]simply[/i][/b] increasing funding. The funding, aims and directions need setting out and managing, an acceptance that it's a huge and complex organisation is needed.
We are working on a number of strategic projects with much smaller health organisations and even that is hard to get going. There are huge challenges around chronic illness, hospital dependancy and poor allocation of resources through nesecity rather than choice. Reform is a dirty word but it's really needed in an open and transparent framework that takes the staff with it not as an adverserial method. Whateve the outcomes bunging them a non existent $350million while removing a significant number of staff isn't going to help it.
NHS spends less on management that other european systems - even in england with its huge bureaucracy to manage the fake internal market
Lots of IMO Jambalaya.
Another official this morning saying it will take 10 years to sort out Brexit .
Yes, Sir Ivan is going very much off script. When was Independence Day again?
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38324146 ]ouch thats gonna hurt[/url]
As I recall, UK spends half what the US does as a percentage of GDP, but it is the UK that enjoys better health.
No causal link of course. Honest.
Actually just to roll the hand grenade - bureaucrats better than businessmen? Discuss.
Do you think Mrs May will be singing to herself that song 'I'm so lonely..' sung by the puppet of the North Korean leader in Team America, as she sits on her own because she's been banished from the dinner party where the rest of the EU members discuss Brexit?
Ooh we're so smart with our political moves... 🙄
Ooh we're so smart with our political moves...
don't worry #dirtydiggerandchums know what's best for us. 🙄
Now I'm not agin the Norwegian model of single market access (as they ignore what they don't like) but I'm not going to be in favour of Norwegian beer prices. Well not in Free Yorkshire anyway, you metros down south way waiting for your no existent trains are already paying those prices.
Mike the people who voted Leave want out ASAP. Speak to some. I am sure the Government has done so. Corbyn called for immediate Article 50 in June.
Freedom of movement is unacceptable. Canada hasn't accepted freedom of movement. The Tories are well aware freedom of movement would be an election loser.
My point was the EU is disorganised and embroiled in a power struggle with member states wanting a deal and EU Commission desperate to protect their "pet project" and to appear in charge. We can just imagine the media frenzy around such a situation if it ocurred within the UK Brexit team.
TJ, yes based on what I heard Nissan has not been offered any money. It's a commitment to pursue free trade on cars. Personally I'd focus on traiff free trade cars and car components with Japan with their electric technology and then stick an extra 10% duty on top of 12% WTO for diesels.
Based on what you heard? really?
Nissan have the government over a barrel - the only reason they came to the UK was tariff free access and poor labour protection. You really think some vague assurance of "this is what we want" from the government was enough to make them change their mind? Not a promise that the government will make up any shortfall?
any sensible person know tariff free access is not going to happen without free movement of people