[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Now that would trigger a tricky court case Edukator…

Edukator - given how narrow the previous vote was ie its not a clear majority of the populaton a referendum is a must. However the scottish government could hold one without Westminster "permission" and then use the result to declare UDI

Even that would be a nuclear option tho and far less desirable than a binding referendum with Westminster approval.

The EU citizenship "offer" is a wheeze by Brussels to try and maintain the influence of European Courts within the UK

Or maybe it's giving some 18m EU citizens what they want? I can't see a problem with this. It's just about freedom of movement - it's not full EU citizenship, and there's no requirement for the UK to recognise EU court jurisdiction, surely?

Plus you have the (daft) logic that it's better to have Brussels in charge of your laws than the Tories in Westminster.

(a) they are not only the ones in which the EU has competence.

(b) in any case I would consider that as preferable and so not daft for reasons to numerous to mention.

Jamba thanks for replying and for the link. It is only academic research based on the census rather than on polling data. It is certainly not based on the actual result for the local authority area. As Scotroutes said it is not strong evidence. You could just as well argue that Gordon the other constituency in the same local authority area must have returned a remain vote of 64% in order to produce the recorded 55% -45% victory for remain
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/23/leave-or-remain-eu-referendum-results-and-live-maps/

Edukator - Reformed Troll

Once Art 50 goes in anything can happen.

This is not true.

If I were a negotiator for the euro zone I'd want representatives of the regional UK assemblies at the table, and the first thing I'd offer them would be continued EU membership if they asked for it.

And I could offer you £squillion to lick my balls, it doesn't change the fact that I don't have £squillion to offer. 🙂

*It would require a change in EU law, and **you know what that would entail.

*Allowing "continued" membership.
**NOT licking my balls.

Unfortunately it isn't.

since when does that matter to the nats?

Bob and TJ your responses convince me I am 100% correct

An Englishman telling a Scot what theyre supposed to think. I want shot of this sanctimonious preaching.

You're not 100% correct. No doubt some will have voted tactically. A tiny, miniscule amount

I will not accept a blinkered man, who has continually been called out on his false facts, lecture me on the mood of MY country and fellow countrymen just because it fits his rhetoric.

Of the hundreds of my fellow Scots who I've discussed these issues with at great length, not one, regardless of how they voted in either referendum, cast their vote for any other reason apart from a desire to leave or remain in the EU

dont feed the parisian troll BOB TBH him disagreeing with you is as close as proof as you get on STW

Bob - I am beginning to think he really is trolling not actually saying what he believes.

As for blaming no growth on the inability to devalue, 50 American states have worked around this. They can all borrow from the Fed at the same rate though.

Perhaps Dave is being nice to his old friend Angela - the fundamental issue is that there is no system to recycle the surpluses that the system delivers for Germany. Forget their preaching to the S states, that's largely BS. They are as much sinners here as they have designed a system that feeds them and starves the periphery in perpetuity until BOOM! Still the lefties seem to love this and the wage deflation and/or mass unemployment forced upon the young and poor. Socialist solidarity - makes a Labour party meeting look harmonious.

I will not accept a blinkered man, who has continually been called out on his false facts, lecture me on the mood of MY country and fellow countrymen just because it fits his rhetoric.

Well it only balances the one you have on your side. Fair's fair Bob! A no score draw. 😉

^^ looks like he is not the only one fishing for a reaction

he wants a response, some of what he says is so out there that no one really could believe it
I am sure he is more RW than STW - not that that requires much effort- but the rest is just silly

A london dwelling parisian saying what scotland thinks 😯
i bet he has not spent more than week there in the last 20 years.- Dont answer as I wont believe you anyway 😉

I think the Scots, the Welsh and the NI should just force England to leave the UK. That way NI, Scot and Wales would retain EU membership.

@gordi understood, I think in England they released the data by polling station. I wonder why they did not in Scotland.

Far more likely that an independent Scotland would join the EEA, via EFTA or similar… I can see Scottish voters going for that in a big way. Full EU membership is not the only option for them.

Yes. This is a good point. I think full EU membership would be less likely for a variety of reasons, the euro being the main one.

There really is not (imo) anything particularly different in outlook and social issues between Scots, English, Welsh and Northern Irish. As TMH says attitudes to issues like immigration don't change just by moving a few miles North from Carlise or Berwick on Tweed. There are other factors at work in voting.

Well it only balances the one you have on your side

I'm not blinkered though. As per my earlier post I was a strong no voter.

Now, the Uk faces financial, social and cultural meltdown that I doubt we'll recover from in my lifetime.

An independent Scotland faces heavy financial risk too, so we may as well rip the band aid off in one quick movement and get the pain over. I'd rather we go it alone. At least we can only blame ourselves!

Jamba - just go an look at voting patterns over the last 10 years. tories in Scotland around 15%. UKIP under 1% Compare that to england.

Its Dunning kruger all over again

TJ is that so different from the North of England ? In Scotland you have a stronger Nationalist Party in the SNP than we have in England where that vote is split between UKIP and the Tories ie the Conservative and Unionist Party

I think the Scots, the Welsh and the NI should just force England to leave the UK. That way NI, Scot and Wales would retain EU membership.

Didn't the Welsh vote overwhelmingly to leave?

Why do they now get to cherry pick? Not even a proper country,anyway..... 😉
(****ing beautiful place, mind....)

Does wee nippy speak German because it will be hard blaming them for everything if you dont speak the lingo?

I wonder how many "shy" brexit voters would get a new "passport"

Will the European versions exist by then?

jambalaya - Member

TJ is that so different from the North of England ? In Scotland you have a stronger Nationalist Party in the SNP than we have in England where that vote is split between UKIP and the Tories ie the Conservative and Unionist Party

Yes

Firstly UKIP get hardly any of the vote here. And the UKIP vote is not the same as the SNP vote. One is a left of centre social democratic party with staying in europe as a priority, the other a far right party with xenophobia at its heart.

In scotland the right wing parties get under 20% of the vote. Even in the north of england its double that.

Jambas you forget that:

One [you guess which] wants Scottish corporation tax to 'be no higher than the rest of the UK if not lower"

The other wants to compete aggressively on corporation tax with suggested level 300bp below rest of Uk

Which is the far right party? Which is the one in the "race to the bottom" on corporation tax? Which gets more votes?

? In Scotland you have a stronger Nationalist Party in the SNP than we have in England where that vote is split between UKIP and the Tories ie the Conservative and Unionist Party

SOme of your posts are so obvious I am amazed folk still reply to them

Jambas, encore mon amis, avez-vous remarqué l'efficacité du logiciel de blocage* allégué par le petit homme qui vit sous le pont? C'est foutou peut-etre?

teamhurtmore - Member
Does wee nippy speak German because it will be hard blaming them for everything if you dont speak the lingo?

Was meinst du damit?

Don't get your point... Is there something I need to blame them for? Everything....

Ich check nicht was du meinst....

In other news .... 😉

Interesting blog from Communications Director of Vote Leave. He also makes the point that the focus on the £350m claim was perfect as it kept the discussion focused on an area Leave where strong, the EU budget. Whether the weekly number was £150m, £200m or £350m for Leave leaning voters all these numbers where far too high.

Also an insight into crossover between social media and web data mining into Political campaigning including the £50m Euro 2016 game. I declined to share my address book with the Vote Leave app but I am sure they found such data very useful.

http://www.politico.eu/article/how-to-win-a-referendum-brexit-inside-story-vote-leave-campaign/

Huffington Post have their take on the piece

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/david-cameron-folded-vote-leave-paul-stephenson-nigel-farage-eu-renegotiation-michael-gove-boris-johnson_uk_584abdeee4b0fccb67996ef3?utm_hp_ref=uk

Finally I certainly agree that Cameron's reneogtiation backfired, he got nothing and was blocked by the EU from even asking the right questions. That whole fiasco played into Leave's hands and served to reduce Cameron's credibility

TJ why not compare the social and welfare polices of UKIP and Front Nationale with the SNP ? You'll find them very similar in my view. Yes there is a difference on the EU, UKIP believes the UK is best out, SNP that an iS is best in and FN is somewhere in the middle - definitely out of the euro but maybe in the EU. It seems daft to me to believe some Nationalist parties are far-right and yet somehow the SNP is not. IMO it's parties like UKIP which are far less right sided than their critics claim.

Don't get your point... Is there something I need to blame them for? Everything....

Alpin, I think TMH's point is that the SNP (Alex Salmond) are always blaming Westminster for just about everything so an Independent Scotland joining the EU will need to blame Germany for all that nasty austerity etc and hence speaking German would be useful.

TMH it's a bluff

Once Art 50 goes in anything can happen. If I were a negociator for the euro zone I'd want representatives of the regional Uk assemblies at the table, and the first thing I'd offer them would be continued EU membership if they asked for it.

In the history of decolonisation many states declared their independence without a referendum. I don't see why Scotland would need another referendum, a vote by the elected representatives in the Scottish parliament would suffice.

Yup Scotland could declare UDI, it worked out well for Zimbabwe.

The UK is the EU member. The individual Parliaments do not have the constitutional powers to accept the jurisdiction of the ECJ and that's is (in my view) the sting in the tail of the "EU citizenship offer".

Sorry for 6 posts in a row !

IMO it's parties like UKIP which are far less right sided than their

If it wasn't for the steady stream of unions begging censure for saying racist sir, trump costing up to Trump or nutall et al wanting to privatise the NHS (there's a reason that carswell defected to ukip rather than the greens 😉 ) you might a have a point, unless you are suggesting that the ukip worshiping mail, express, dun telegraph etc are actually subversive left wing propaganda

TMH it's a bluff

A poor one from the start. Hunger pains? 😀

[quote=teamhurtmore ]Jambas, encore mon amis, avez-vous remarqué l'efficacité du logiciel de blocage* allégué par le petit homme qui vit sous le pont? C'est foutou peut-etre?

I hope the mods french - or google translator is not in the state you describe.
the main failure I find is that other folk still quote him as he is effective in getting a reaction. You speak with him[ and out about his "facts" you know he cannot mean what he says, in your parlance he makes Wee eck look like he as a grip of the facts.

Still glad you are still reading and not using it yet :wink:. I dont block you as I like to note when you goad TJ and then chew the fat about bullies and the like . You responded today for a little bit though you tease 😉

WInk made it all ok 😛

Cioa Saesneg

That doesn't mean anything in French.

there is a make believe person on HIGNFY in 20 mins

I predict pin stripe and polka dot tie

TMH have you seen TJ's scenario in the other thread, Referendum in 18 months and Scotland achieves independence and successor state in 6 months thereafter ? That seems to be on the fantasy side of wildly optimistic.

I always thought he was playing a game with you of making stuff up -like David Mitchell's game on R4 where occasionally you slip in something true. But with each stage was more outlandish than the last!! The passport gag was a good one.

More importantly, time to charge you glass for a bit of Jacob and some nanny jokes. Mines a rather nice Shiraz/Merlot blend.

Mrs B watching a French slapstick film to much amusement (same team as Les Bronzes). Happy wife happy life, only watch bbc on catch up

THM - Half right

I know. No pin stripe. Shocking

He's on good form despite being on the wrong side!!

Wig.

JRM is still a nasty piece of work. Just a nasty piece of work with little grip on reality by that showing.

Junkyard - is THM [i]still[/i] answering my posts / attempting to goad me despite me blocking him? What a strange sad inadequate little man. I must have really got under his skin.

would you please report him when he does?

.and a wry sense of humour and the ability to take some ribbing, unlike some. Quite a funny show last night.

Looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights a lot of the time though.

Ps - not saying I wouldn't on that show of course.

Any questions on R4 was quite interesting - audiences are, as was pointed out, self selecting, but the questions, answers, clapping and booing suggests a moving mood in the country.

Yes you could tell when certain comments touched a nerve. But as much as I disagree with him, I do enjoy his delivery and sepia-edged persona. He was funny too as a client back in the 90s when he did a proper job 😉

Working in a safety (and to a lesser extent environmentally) critical industry, I'm not going to forgive him for his comments that Brexit might allow us to reduce safety and environmentally standards - to Indian levels. That's my colleagues that pay the price when safety is compromised.

To whom are we referring to? Don't watch telly so have no sea what misguided idiot is being discussed.

All I'll say is that the NII were merged with the HSE. Reduced standards are the last thing I want.

Jacob Rees-Mogg. Multimillionaire Tory MP who wants Brexit to get rid of things that hold back money making.

Who on earth vote for someone like that?

Ricky Gervais on the Last Leg was very funny.

Problem now comes that the UK needs to replace the EU laws (things get missed) and as for why people would vote for this we are uncharted territory here as the thing that people voted for caused a chain reaction that wasn't on any manifesto

uncharted territory

The future is uncharted inside the EU or out. I believe in democracy and I'd rather have a Government elected purely in the United Kingdom determining our future.

If you read the Leave vote research published last week you'll see Leavers see an optimistic future and quite simply did not believe the (vested interest) predictions of doom and gloom. Remainers vored remain as they thought leaving would be an economic disaster, leavers voted leave as they felt the future was brighter outside and any economic difficulties we could handle.

Even John McDonnell is speaking of the great opportunities we have (although I appreciate the Labour Party had wished him to keep his mouth shut as that's not their official line)

Thing is Jamba the doom and gloom is already here if you have your eyes open - and its only the start.

Huge devaluation of the pound, downrating of credit ratings, investment decisions cancelled, etc etc.

Even the tory governments own figures show huge financial damage

If you read the Leave vote research published last week you'll see Leavers see an optimistic future and quite simply did not believe the (vested interest) predictions of doom and gloom.

It's tough to read most of that without laughing, we all know the optimism of leave and as repeated many many times the biggest problem is the lack of any kind of facts to back it up, the central pillars were built on lies and fear and the doom and gloom hasn't occurred as the reality of Brexit hasn't arrived yet.

The EU was a known thing especially as we had such things as a Veto built into the whole deal.

economic difficulties we could handle

Save that you won't be experiencing any.

If you read the Leave vote research published last week you'll see Leavers see an optimistic future and quite simply did not believe the (vested interest) predictions of doom and gloom

I keep mentioning this but I've not heard a response yet, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts - we lost a fair number of staff yesterday to redundancy, having had a major recruitment drive at the start of the year. This is down to the Brexit vote. How do I know this? Numerous developers/funders/etc had Brexit clauses in their contracts and gave triggered them. Current feeling in the industry (engineering consultancy) is 10-15% staff reductions by Easter next year, possibly towards 20% based on workload projections.

This isn't a prediction of doom and gloom, a lot of people are losing their jobs.

And as for Jamabalaya's sunny uplands I think Steve Bell's well captures the UKs position going forward.

[img] [/img]

you read the Leave vote research published last week you'll see Leavers see an optimistic future and quite simply did not believe the (vested interest) predictions of doom and gloom.

I think we all know that their optimism is not a scientific fact and its pointless to respect wishful thinking as if it has som meaning. Its even harder to do this when they are morons and all the evidence contradicts their optimism

Its like a captain shouting on the titanic that everything is ok and we will make it through as the ship continues to list and sink.

[i]Working in a safety (and to a lesser extent environmentally) critical industry, I'm not going to forgive him for his comments that Brexit might allow us to reduce safety and environmentally standards - to Indian levels. That's my colleagues that pay the price when safety is compromised. [/I]

But JRM (and Jamba) and the like don't care, all they see is money and a worker injury/death is just a line in the risk register and a negative cash number - contra'd by a positive cash issue due to reduced expenditure.

I've worked for companies in the distant past where we got an additional percentage on our bonuses if we had no injury/death outages that year - folk should not be dying at work due to accidents and mistakes, nevermind purposeful corporate actions!

Boils my pi55.

Remainers vored remain as they thought leaving would be an economic disaster, leavers voted leave as they felt the future was brighter outside and any economic difficulties we could handle.

I am certain that lots of people voted for reasons other than economics. Things other than money exist you see. Your kids would be happy for you to learn that. Bit late for the ex wife, mind 😉

Deregulation does just mean a drop in employment rights , safety standards and various other red tape designed to make work fairer and safer for worker and consumer.

I've worked for companies in the distant past where we got an additional percentage on our bonuses if we had no injury/death outages that year - folk should not be dying at work due to accidents and mistakes, nevermind purposeful corporate actions!

No reason why that has to change.

No reason why that has to change.

Good time to be a lawyer - my kids' chosen path and v interesting times too for that profession with these previously dormant constitutional issues now at the centre of debate and news.

The UK will get through all of this and yes new opportunities will arise. The nimble will grasp them and prosper, other wont. Within the latter ironically are large numbers of Outers, but as they say in France "tant pis", you had your chance. Dont blame others when the going gets tough.

There's every reason why it will have to change as in your brave hard brexit / WTO world we will be uncompetitive unless there is a substantial degree of deregulation in safety standards workers/employment rights etc. in fact I think it will be an imperative to just try and remain anything like competitive - what would be point of investing here without direct access to the SM, may as well invest directly in the EU so there has to be some incentive to invest here which will be said light touch regulation, lower business taxes (lower income for public expenditure)as so on.

There's every reason why it will have to change as in your brave hard brexit / WTO world we will be uncompetitive unless there is a substantial degree of deregulation in safety standards workers/employment rights etc. in fact I think it will be an imperative to just try and remain anything like competitive

Not necessarily, we could try the old fashioned remedy of improving productivity instead. The beauty of this out -of-mode solution is that it results in better wages too. A win:win. Odd that so few want to focus on it?

The nimble will grasp them and prosper, other wont.

That's not a society I want to live in. I am a lawyer (a solicitor) and am not filled with joy at my future prospects (having already had two job offers withdrawn as a result on the uncertainty caused by brexit as it concerns my sector).

tjagain - Member
Junkyard - is THM still answering my posts / attempting to goad me despite me blocking him? What a strange sad inadequate little man. I must have really got under his skin.

would you please report him when he does?

POSTED 4 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST SHARE

Mines a rather nice Shiraz/Merlot blend.

It's statements like that make me think Brexit isn't such a bad thing. A bit like saying of beer "mines a rather nice malted barley/hops blend". Is there even an English word for "terroir", my dictionary has no adequate translation?

Not necessarily, we could try the old fashioned remedy of improving productivity instead.

But that requires money and investment - deregulation costs nothing.

Yes terroir, why use an inferior version when the original is so much better?

Edukator - I usually have good debate with my bro. I am pro French as still the best wines in the world v his New World bias. I was going off-piste last night. Back to some nice Sancerre for this evening!! Would prefer white burgundy but one guest rarely strays beyond sauvignon blanc, so better be more accommodating to her wishes.

I have had work cancelled too nipper, so my sympathies - and I am a remainer BTW!

Bad if you are deal=focused law by good in other areas.

You are correct about money and investment though - the old achilles heel in the productivity idea!!

So much easier to introduce artificial wages instead. The good old band-aid.

I think we all knew you were off piste on the internet last night 😉

[I]Not necessarily, we could try the old fashioned remedy of improving productivity instead. The beauty of this out -of-mode solution is that it results in better wages too. A win:win. Odd that so few want to focus on it? [/I]

Yes, but those of us who've worked across industry know how difficult this is and how crap UK management is at it - which is why it'll be a different approach...

so we are doomed to lower wages then...simple choice

starts with education in my mind, so we are obviously doomed!

I believe in democracy and I'd rather have a Government elected purely in the United Kingdom determining our future.

Based on politics this past decade I want a benevolent AI to rule the world.