[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Ninfan - it may say that but also in a couple of places it says EU. Its an EU passport ie allows me to use the EU passport channel at immigration.

[url= http://newsthump.com/2016/12/08/government-opens-new-community-swimming-pool-filled-with-tears-of-remainers/ ]Government opens new community swimming pool filled with tears of Remainers[/url]

Well, the Trump pool only has 4 or 8 years of tear supply… we have an endless supply…

The least of your worries, countries don't turn away tourists because two words on the passport cover are superfluous.

house that straddles the NI / ROI border - his front door is in ROI his back door in NI.

Troubles in the bedroom?

house that straddles the NI / ROI border - his front door is in ROI his back door in NI

If he wants to remain in Europe then he can get someone to kick his backdoor in.

I'm inclined to think your average libdem is a remainer.

From the research report Lib Dem's about 70/30 Remain

Brexshit is almost worth it simply to imagine TJ having a strop with some immigration official

Labour always said they would not delay implementing article 50 spineless numpties that they are

or following the direct instructions given to them by their consituents (unlike the SNP MP of a vote Leave constituency who voted against the Labour motion last night). Inconceivable how Labour could possibly vote against

[img] [/img]

Inconceivable how Labour could possibly vote against

Still haven't quite grasped how representative democracy works then.

If they are doing their jobs they should vote in the direction they feel is best for their constituents and the country.

What stops them voting in this manner on a particular issue is wanting to save their own political skins.

I trust Julian Sturdy voted against then Jamba - Tory Brexy in remain constituency.

Food and drink has an important role in the economy, making up the UK’s biggest export, worth £18bn led by Scotch whisky, chocolate, beer and salmon. Despite its relatively low profile, food manufacturing is worth more to the UK economy than the automotive and aerospace sectors combined.

I did not know that

Now given that whisky and salmon will be predominantly Scots, I wonder how much of UK exports originate in Scotland.

Goods that is not services. Although London, associated with service exports, also voted remain - was it the international trade areas that voted remain and the inwardly focused areas that didn't.

York (remain) is very tourist dependent.

Thoughts on a postcard.

Now given that whisky and salmon will be predominantly Scots, I wonder how much of UK exports originate in Scotland.

In 2014 there was 27.5bn international exports from Scotland of which 10bn is services.

In the same year, the UK exported (I think, hard to find exactly comparable data) 283bn of which 56% (158bn) was goods.

So Scotland's international exports are 9.7% of the UK overall and 11.5% of goods.

Top trade destination country for both UK and Scotland is USA (excluding intra-UK trade). Of course, that treats the EU as separate countries and not a single market.

[i]The least of your worries, countries don't turn away tourists because two words on the passport cover are superfluous. [/I]

Yer, right...

I take it you've not travelled much.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36228034

So roughly average per capita, and presumably if you took out London, rather higher than average per capita compared to the rest of the UK.

Edit - on totals. Split by goods and services would need better data than I can get on the east coast mainline.

Come on br, you can do batter than that. Come up with a reason why the US would not honour a valid biometric passport that the British government gave it's backing too. It would take a move by the British government to invalidate the current passports. Countries will go on accepting them for as long as they meet security requirements and have the backing of HM's government even if it says European Union on them.

The guy in your linked BBC article didn't read the conditions of entry into the US which I'm in the habit of doing before traveling.

What stops them voting in this manner on a particular issue is wanting to save their own political skins.

Ignoring, once again, that most Labour voters voted to remain. Slavishly following the wishes of people who wouldn't ever vote for you anyway isn't the way to hold on to your seat. Tory voters aren't ever going to vote for a Labour MP, just because they've decided to move over and let a Tory PM do what she wants without scrutiny or challenge.

Inconceivable how Labour could possibly vote against

Inconceivable that half the country now expect both the major parties to ignore their interests.
I predict a very low turnout at the next general election.

What I read from that map is that the two places with the most decisive results were Scotland and London, both of which strongly voted remain.

As all the other regions didn't seem all that bothered either way, if we just slowly stop talking about the whole thing would they even notice?

@phiii my 2 cents

Scotland, tactical voting guided by SNP
Northern Ireland, concerns over open border
London, belief no EU would be bad for financial business

Elsewhere Leave with NE/Yorkshire/East & West Midlands strongly Leave

Jamba

Scotland - you are aware that 30%+ of SNP voters voted out?

the reason Scotland voted in so strongly is nothing to do with the SNP. The reasons are the xenophobic little englander tendency hardly exists here, the scottish people by and large are not inward looking but outward looking and relish being a part of europe, there is a long history of co operation between scotland and other european nations ( the auld alliance, dutch influences on where I live etc) and finally there is no hankering for the days of empire here nor delusions that we "punch above our weight"

\Look at how little support UKIP get in Scotland. that shows a huge difference in attitudes

During the scottish independence referendum one of the attack lines from the unionists was that an independent scotland would have no more influence on world affairs than Finland - we all looked at each other and said " that seems about right"

We know you hate the SNP - but really - if you are going to comment on scottish politics gain some knowledge please

Lib Dems and Greens had lower Leave votes (mid / low 20's) - typical SNP voter more aligned to Labour (most ex- Labour ?) which was closer to 40%. You can see the whole SNP responce to the Refrendum is positioning for yet another Indy Ref (even though support for Indy is lower now than in 2014). Tactical voting.

UKIP don't even bother with Scotland it's not worth the rescources, SNP have the special interest vote.

Oh dear oh dear - do I even bother to try to explain?

Ukip have tried hard in Scotland but realised their nasty xenophobic nonsense does not play up here so they gave up

the SNP vote and UKIP vote are diametrically opposed

The SNP response to the euro referendum is about respecting the overwhelming wishes of the scottish people and protecting our interests as a European country.

If you actually knew the slightest thing about scottish politics you would stop with the nonsense. Perhaps a little listening and learning might help you understand a little more and stop you making such ridiculous assertions

Exactly the same demographic and electoral logic, UK Independence / Scottish Independence, take back control to help the ordinary working man. Identical messaging on that main issue.

An in that sentence you show just how ignorant you are of scottish politics

Andy Burnham nailed the immigration issue in his speech in the Brexit Debate last night

There is nothing socialist about a system of free movement that is used by multi-nationals to undermine wages. WATCH my Brexit speech today.

https://mobile.twitter.com/andyburnhammp/status/806563566526537728

Burnham is a man of no principles and no morals who would say anything if he thought it would get him elected. He has never uttered an original thought in his life. Symbolic of all that is wrong with the labour party.

Lets see could the government do something about low wages and still be in the EU? Whats that politician in avoiding taking blame for anything shocker...

Labour is now trying to work out how to get back in with people who have been told immigration caused all their problems, in reality it's been successive governments failure to invest in the right areas.

The SNP response to the euro referendum is about respecting the overwhelming wishes of the scottish people and protecting our interests as a European country.

Or it's about taking advantage of the situation to press their own independence agenda. I get that they will oppose Brexit in the commons and that's OK. But their response has been laughably lacking in substance. All mouth and no trousers.

How many other parties have declared a constitutional crisis to be a good thing?

And more ignorance. the SNP have said its a disaster and they are trying to salvage something for the scottish people from it.

I do find it astonishing how many folk on here want to slate the SNP but are so ignorant of scottish politics they pick the wrong targets because they simply have no understanding of scottish politics

plenty there to attack the SNP on if you knew anything about the politics and the real situation in Scotland

Ex-pat Scot here. I don't like what the SNP want to do, I quite like the UK (though it is in desperate need of reform), but I'm wiser than not to have respect for them. The upper echelons in particular are superb political operators.

Sturgeons speech after the euro result

Thank you for joining me this morning after a long night - and a long few months - for all of us.

Yesterday, Scotland - like London and Northern Ireland - voted overwhelmingly to remain in the European Union.

We voted to protect our place in the world's biggest single market - and the jobs and investment that depend on it.

We voted to safeguard our freedom to travel, live, work and study in other European countries.

And we voted to renew our reputation as an outward looking, open and inclusive country.

It is significant - in my view - that we did so after a campaign that was positive about the EU and about the benefits of migration.

Indeed, I want to take the opportunity this morning to speak directly to citizens of other European countries living here in Scotland - you remain welcome here, Scotland is your home and your contribution is valued.

Unfortunately, of course, yesterday's result in Scotland was not echoed across the whole of the United Kingdom.

That UK wide vote to leave the EU is one that I deeply regret.

It remains my passionate belief that it is better for all parts of the UK to be members of the European Union.

But the vote across England and Wales was a rejection of the EU.

And it was a sign of divergence between Scotland and large parts of the rest of the UK in how we see our place in the world.

But this vote wasn't just about the EU - it was also a clear expression of the disaffection with the political system that is felt in too many communities.

Communities taken for granted by Labour for generations and punished with austerity cuts by the Tories for a financial crisis they didn't cause, used this referendum to make their voices heard.

The Westminster establishment has some serious soul searching to do - and I hope that it does it.

But as First Minister of Scotland I have a duty to respond - not just to the outcome across the UK - but also and in particular to the democratic decision taken by the people of Scotland.

As things stand, Scotland faces the prospect of being taken out of the EU against our will.

I regard that as democratically unacceptable.

And of course we face that prospect less than two years after being told that it was our own referendum on independence that would end our membership of the European Union and that only a rejection of independence could protect it.

Indeed for many people the supposed guarantee of remaining in the EU was a driver in their decision to vote to stay within the UK.

So there is no doubt that yesterday's result represents a significant and a material change of the circumstances in which Scotland voted against independence in 2014.

My job now is to act responsibly and in the interests of all of Scotland.

The Cabinet will meet early tomorrow morning to discuss our next steps in more detail but I want to set out some immediate priorities.

Firstly, we have an urgent job to do to provide as much reassurance and certainty as we can.

I spoke a short while ago to the Governor of the Bank of England to discuss his plans to reassure the markets and restore financial stability.

Starting this afternoon Ministers will be engaged this afternoon in discussions with key stakeholders - particularly in the business community - to emphasise that as of now we are still firmly in the EU. Trade and business should continue as normal and we are determined that Scotland will continue now and in the future to be an attractive and stable place to do business. Our resilience committee will meet later this afternoon to oversee these immediate actions.

Secondly, I want to make it absolutely clear today that I intend to take all possible steps and explore all options to give effect to how people in Scotland voted - in other words, to secure our continuing place in the EU and in the single market in particular.

To that end, I have made clear to the Prime Minister this morning that the Scottish Government must be fully and directly involved in any and all decisions about the next steps that the UK government intends to take.

We will also be seeking direct discussions with the EU institutions and its member states, including the earliest possible meeting with the President of the European Commission.

I will also be communicating over this weekend with each EU member state to make clear that Scotland has voted to stay in the EU - and that I intend to discuss all options for doing so.

I should say that I have also spoken this morning with Mayor Sadiq Khan and he is clear that he shares this objective for London - so there is clear common cause between us.

The discussions that take place over the coming days and weeks will, of course, be led by government but I will seek the support and ensure the involvement of the Scottish Parliament at every step of the way.

I intend to speak to all party leaders later today and make a full statement to the Chamber on Tuesday.

I will also make a further statement following tomorrow's meeting of the Scottish Cabinet.

Lastly, let me address the issue of a second independence referendum.

The manifesto that the SNP was elected on last month said this -

"The Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum...if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out the EU against our will.”

Scotland does now face that prospect - it is a significant and material change in circumstances - and it is therefore a statement of the obvious that the option of a second referendum must be on the table. And it is on the table.

Clearly, though, there are many discussion to be had before final decisions are taken.

It would not be right to rush to judgment ahead of discussions on how Scotland’s result will be responded to by the EU.

However, when the Article 50 process is triggered in three months time, the UK will be on a two year path to the EU exit door.

If Parliament judges that a second referendum is the best or only way to protect our place in Europe, it must have the option to hold one within that timescale.

That means we must act now to protect that position. I can therefore confirm today that in order to protect that position we will begin to prepare the required legislation to enable a new independence referendum to take place if and when Parliament so decides.

To conclude, this is not a situation that I wanted Scotland or the UK to be in today.

My responsibility in a climate of uncertainty is to seek to lead us forward with purpose.

I know that there is a lot of thinking and talking to be done in the period that lies ahead. These are complex issues that we face.

There are many people who voted against independence in 2014 who are today reassessing their decision.

But I know they will not want me to simply assume their support or to hear me talk about the challenges we face as if they are straightforward - they would want me to be straight and honest with them.

Now is the time for me as First Minister to seek to lead the country forward as one.

The need to act decisively must be tempered with the need to build consensus - and it will be. That is my duty as First Minister.

After a campaign that has been characterised in the rest of the UK by fear and hate, my priority in the days, weeks and months ahead, will be to act at all times in the best interests of Scotland - and in a way that unites not divides us.

And let me also be clear about this - whatever happens as a result of this outcome, England, Wales and Northern Ireland will always be Scotland's closest neighbours and our best friends. Nothing will ever change that.

But I want to leave no-one in any doubt about this.

I am proud of Scotland and how we voted yesterday. We proved that we are a modern, outward looking, open and inclusive country.

And we said clearly that we do not want to leave the EU.

I am determined that we do what it takes to make sure that these aspirations are realised.

I closing let me say just a word or two about the Prime Minister.

David Cameron and I have very many political disagreements - not least over the conduct of this referendum.

But - as I am learning every single day - leadership is not easy. David has been the Prime Minister of the UK for six years. It is a tough job and, whatever our disagreements, he deserves our thanks for his service. I wish him and his family well for the future.

How ignorant is the idea that independence is compatable with monetary, fiscal and political subservience to Frankfurt?That makes Brexshiteer arguments logical and considered in comparison. People who REALLY understand Scottish politics get that. Those who are ignorant do not unless they are narcissists like Bojo and Co

THM - does that mean me? The former bit. Go on. Be nice.

Actually Scots politics are stunningly complex, and I do not presume to fully understand.

No not at all. A general question/point

It is very complex true made even more so by deceitful leaders

#SDBMB

All leaders are deceitful at times.

Some get caught out

ps. I wasn't taking offence, not that I think you thought I was

And some make up 670 pages of it. At least the Brexshiteers only had five core lies

When they're big ones you don't need so much supporting material.

Jjamba you claimed there is an snp mp whose constituency voted to Leave. Who is it? And where is the constituency?

IGM - if THM is making snide comments they are probably aimed at me. fortunately all I see is
[quote="teamhurtmore"]

teamhurtmore said something stupid.

He is another who pontificates on scottish politics without any understanding. Dunning Kruger in action

Tj serious question, not that i can see me ever using it, how do you apply this block?

TJ - I'd guessed really but I gave up taking Brexit seriously some time ago. Don't dismiss THM though - he's not daft, even if you disagree.

ulysse

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/stw-killfile-plugin/page/2

igm. Saying what I thought of THM is what got me banned before. Needless to say I completely disagree with you.

I must walk away from this thread now. I can feel the banhammer descending.

Cheers igm, but don't forget that I am so stupid that I think 120k divided by 5.4m is about 2% not 10% - thats how stupid and ignorant of Scotland I am. Would you credit it?!?

But you are true about the five big whoppers from the Brexshiteers. If you are going to lie, lie big seems to be the mantra these days. And boy it works.

I'd better just add to Jamba - thanks for taking my gibes in good spirit. It shows probably more generosity of character than I have shown.

Anyway back on topic - anything come out of D3? I have been out this evening and have only seen Neuberger's repetition that the ruling is only about the process not the detail nor the rights and wrongs. Anything else of interest?

Plus any spread bet on number of words in the forthcoming bill - 38-40?

Re-read the last few pages and wondering if anyone could help a stupid old fool like me. When did the EU start issuing passports?

Hey tj a chap like you'd be welcome in an independent Yorkshire.

The Tories have retained their seat last night in a bye election.

Labour have disintegrated.

They did not let the new mp have a speech in case her views were not identical to the government.

he's not daft, even if you disagree.

People who REALLY understand Scottish politics get that.

That said boy can he sulk and flounce though when you do it back to him 😉

Exactly the same demographic and electoral logic, UK Independence / Scottish Independence, take back control to help the ordinary working man. Identical messaging on that main issue.

Raining again..... 😉

I haven't been to Scotland for over a quarter of a century but having spent time in other regions where independence is an issue, Jamba has a point. Rather than just dismissing what he says can someone give me half a dozen one-line points on what Scotland gains from independence over what it already has through its current devolved privileges?

As a distant observer and on the basis of the choices Scotland has already made in favour of a more equitable society than the rest of Britain I feel the Scots have more humanist values than the rest of the union.

Fresh from the Fringe

Another PSA, don't take much of what is said at face value. It was a spoof.

So our new Tory MP seems happy with herself. But then she's got those of us in the private sector to pay for it all, deal with the consequences and keep her on another large public sector salary and the associated benefits.

Consultant paediatrician Dr Johnson said her election would boost Theresa May's support on Brexit.
She said: "I look forward to strengthening the government's majority in Parliament so Theresa May, our prime minister, can get on with the job of triggering Article 50, leaving the European Union and building a country and economy that works for everyone."

She's done well, that sounds 100% on script. Now for Bojo and his off piste stuff...

Wonder who wrote it...

Her mother?

He is off to the Middle East today. Should be fun after last week end comments.

I haven't been to Scotland for over a quarter of a century but having spent time in other regions where independence is an issue, Jamba has a point. Rather than just dismissing what he says can someone give me half a dozen one-line points on what Scotland gains from independence over what it already has through its current devolved privileges?

As a distant observer and on the basis of the choices Scotland has already made in favour of a more equitable society than the rest of Britain I feel the Scots have more humanist values than the rest of the union.

Control over energy policy

control over economic policy

Ability to set tax rates

Ability to set its own budget

Remaining in the EU

A voice albeit small in international affairs

ability to reform the benefits system in line with our values

Control over defense including getting rid of the nukes

Ability to make and join international treaties

Ability to control its own resources

You know - all those things that an independent country can do

on the basis of the choices Scotland has already made in favour of a more equitable society than the rest of Britain I feel the Scots have more humanist values than the rest of the union.

And even the small gestures the devolved government have made contributed to the Scottish overall remain vote.

Sadly in rUK 30+ years of right wing government's have failed to address the post industrial decline in many regions, hence the self serving demagogues and unscrupulous media begging able to scapegoat immigrants and the EU, for Westminster's failings.
The irony is that those regions will suffer most from Brexit

Control over energy policy

control over economic policy

Ability to set tax rates

Ability to set its own budget

Remaining in the EU

A voice albeit small in international affairs

ability to reform the benefits system in line with our values

Control over defense including getting rid of the nukes

Ability to make and join international treaties

Ability to control its own resources

You know - all those things that an independent country can do

small % tho. The difference between civic and ethnic nationalism

As an Englishman with an english name and accent I am sensitive to this. There is no anti english sentiment from the higher echelons of the SNP. sure there is amongst a few of its supporters. same as there are racists in the tory party. anti english in the SNP is far less than racism in the tory party

"it isn't important where you come from, what matters is where we are going together as a nation" Bashir Ahmad

Scotland has control over those things, proportionally. What it doesn't have is control exclusively by Scottish people over what happens in Scotland. Just like eveywhere else in the UK.

The only reason your argument makes sense if you are drawing a distinction between Scottish and English. Therefore it's nationalism. Now take this debate back over to the Scottish indy thread please.

Educator asked a question - I answered it.

So the scottish parliament want to implement a sensible integrated energy policy. Its not westminster policy to do so. Therefore scotland can't have a sensible integrated energy policy

tjagain - Member

Burnham is a man of no principles and no morals who would say anything if he thought it would get him elected. He has never uttered an original thought in his life. Symbolic of all that is wrong with the labour party.

Or alternatively .... a man who sees the necessity of dispensing with the compulsory, high-handed, dismissive, PC Islington Bollocks, a la Corbyn, to recognise, and engage with the genuine (non-racist) concerns of the Labour parties core vote, and their legitimate concerns on present levels of immigration, maybe?

Just a thought

He is off to the Middle East today. Should be fun after last week end comments.

Binners - not at all. Sorry - to me Burnham is symbolic of all that is wrong with the modern labour party. He and his ilk are why I stopped voting labour. We ( all sensible people) know that immigration is good for the country and labour should be fighting against the racists outpourings of the right wing press and leading public opinion. NOt kowtowing to the daily wail and following their agenda.

PC Islington Bollocks

Wait, did you just use 'political correctness' as a derogatory term?!

Shame on you binners!

And your[s] arrogant[/s] worthy, dismissive, high-handed, Metropolitan liberal, I-know-what's-best-for-you, virtue-signalling attitude, and its total refusal to adress peoples perfectly legitimate concerns on immigraion, prefering instead to loftily dismiss them all as 'racist', is exactly why labour will be decimated in its former 'heartlands' at the next election

What are the "legitimate concerns"

Wait, did you just use 'political correctness' as a derogatory term?!

Shame on you binners!

[img] https://media.tenor.co/images/97586e24178b56247a3b26504102268b/raw [/img]

tjagain - Member

What are the "legitimate concerns"

You know exactly what they are. Stop being so contrary

No I really don't Binners. I really do not understand what legitimate concerns people have over immigration. Everything I have seen quoted is either racist or from believing falshoods from the right wing press

@igm agreed, top end of SNP are fabulous political operators.

@gordimor to answer but agreed this should be in the Indy thread, admitedly only one. Dr Eilidh Whiteford MP Banff and Buchan, 54% Leave

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/08/revealed-89-brexit-rebel-mps-whether-constituents-voted-leave/

Boris. Funny many here acuse Saudi Arabia of funding terrorism but when Boris says it ? French are trying to pass a law stopping foreign money (Saudi) paying for Mosque development.

Sleaford voted 70% Leave yesterday. Nice.

[quote=jambalaya ]Banff and Buchan, 54% Leave
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/08/revealed-89-brexit-rebel-mps-whether-constituents-voted-leave/

He [b]calculated[/b] the figures using census data, taking into account factors such as age and university education, [b]and believes they are accurate to within one per cent.[/b]

Boris is right in saying it BUT it is not really what the PM was saying a few days ago.

I really do not understand what legitimate concerns people have over immigration.

Ok well perhaps if you'll listen carefully with an open mind I can help.

People SEE lots of people with foreign accents appearing in their towns. They therefore can see that there are lots of immigrants. Then, they themselves struggle to find a job, or have to wait ages in A&E, or see that some other service is struggling to cope.

Now - people often feel uncomfortable hearing people talking to each other in foreign languages, or even hearing accents. This is a bit of basic human nature at work. So because people are feeling disadvantaged, they sometimes link the negative emotions associated with their situation with the negative emotions that sometimes appear when confronted with 'other' people i.e. immigrants. So you get immigration associated with lack of jobs, prospects and good public services in people's minds.

Then the newspapers that people buy play on this and reinforce the beliefs, and bingo - you have an immigration 'problem'.

Now - government should not have let this happen. If they had managed things a bit instead of letting shit happen, and crucially if they had not let public services and jobs go down the shitter, we would not have this problem. But the Tories can see that allowing immigrants to be blamed lets them off the hook in the short term. In the long term, who the **** knows where we'll be, but politicans never care about that.

Now sure - these concerns may not be justified in technical terms - but since when does that matter? People vote how they feel. And no-one's bothered to try and dissuade them of their concerns.

Molgrips - those are concerns yes - but are they legitimate or are they actually false? If the concerns are based on false perceptions then surely those concerns should be challenged not pandered to?