[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

VAT is a harder tax to avoid than income tax IMHO.

For the poor I agree. I'm saying VAT is regressive because it is not applied or applied at a lower rate to the most expensive, most luxurious items you can buy.

They promised that they would execute whatever decision was made, This was unequivocal. They even made that promise in writing to every household and at great expense. So they have a choice. Respect the democratic process or ignore/obstruct it.

Or the third choice of not doing it whilst saying they're engaged in doing it.

Or the fourth choice of delivering something called Leave that isn't whatever the people who voted Leave had in their minds at the time they voted.

This is fudgable, and it will be fudged.

I am beginning to think the £350m claim was absolute genius as the amount of time during the Campaign Remain spent complaining about it was totally wasted, a massive distraction. Most Leavers I spoke with didn't care whether the number was £100m, £200m or £350m a week. As per the Trump post election videos it has meant the losing side has clung to "we only lost as they lied" which is helpful for Leave as unless Remain acknowledge the real reasons they lost those campaign groups will go on to repeat their failures 8)

VAT: Progressive or not. Hard to generalise and of course depends on location. In France you have vat on food and utilities, in UK we have no vat on food and low rate vat on utilities. So in a uk context it's easier to argue vat is a prpgressive tax as it's paid mostly by the better off. for the least well off you have to add in the tax free welfare they receive too. Rent of course is free of tax. Also once again a focus on percentage of income is an excersize in smoke and mirrors and at the very least it should be looked at both as a percentage and on an absolute basis.

The most powerful argument for VAT imo is that it's paid by everyone, those working, retired and by tourists. Also VAT at least collects some taxes from untaxed / black market income

As this is an EU thread we should remember the EU has repeatedly sought to "align" VAT meaning the UK would have been forced to tax food, childrens's shoes and clothes and fullt tax gas/electric and water supply.

I am a bit lost as to the rationale for a VAT rise from Fillon (euro debt/gdp limits forcing him to raise taxes ?) as that's going to lose votes from left and FN have policies to appeal very much to that portion of the electorate. Removal of the wealth tax is perhaps more classically Republican, no mention of the 66% employers tax for €1m+. 500,000 reduction in state sector jobs maybe too agressive if he wants to avoid driving people to FN.

For the poor I agree. I'm saying VAT is regressive because it is not applied or applied at a lower rate to the most expensive, most luxurious items you can buy.

True, on the other hand you could equally argue that VAT is progressive, because wealthy people buy tons of VATable stuff, and poor people don't.

You can argue it either way. Which is what I said.

It's a negotiation. We don't know for sure what the result will be except that it will be worse than the status quo. But the turkeys have voted

But the turkeys have voted

Why is that the end of it? I'm sure I don't have to repeat the well rehearsed reasons for revisiting, amending or even ignoring what the people apparently want. It's all very well asking the people their opinion on something, but if that opinion is based on a something that simply isn't possible, then it's worthless. They could've asked the people whether we should all emigrate to the moon, just because they might say 'yes, that's a great idea' doesn't make it possible.

Why is that the end of it? I'm sure I don't have to repeat the well rehearsed reasons for revisiting, amending or even ignoring what the people apparently want. It's all very well asking the people their opinion on something, but if that opinion is based on a something that simply isn't possible, then it's worthless. They could've asked the people whether we should all emigrate to the moon, just because they might say 'yes, that's a great idea' doesn't make it possible.

That's exactly my take. It's not binding. We'll only leave if the political fallout from Brexit is worse than the political fallout of stalling/delaying/not leaving at all. Which means either we won't leave, but if we do leave the Civil Servants will have worked out leaving won't be too bad.

I am beginning to think the £350m claim was absolute genius as the amount of time during the Campaign Remain spent complaining about it was totally wasted, a massive distraction. Most Leavers I spoke with didn't care whether the number was £100m, £200m or £350m a week. As per the Trump post election videos it has meant the losing side has clung to "we only lost as they lied" which is helpful for Leave as unless Remain acknowledge the real reasons they lost those campaign groups will go on to repeat their failures

so lying is the best way to win votes?

so lying is the best way to win votes?

5thElefant - Member
so lying is the best way to win votes?

Didn't work for remain.

nah its just that their lies werent big enough/ written on a bus......

does it also tie in with leave voters having much lower education levels (on average) than remainers ?

either way, even the Brexit Bugle reckoned leave told more porkies!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/22/eu-referendum-fact-checking-the-big-claims1/

does it also tie in with leave voters having much lower education levels (on average) than remainers

You can argue that. Equally you can argue they were more sophisticated and understood that you can't take campaign promises literally. Especially if they're on average older - they've been around a bit and heard Politicians promises before.

[I]It's about the proportion of your income that goes in tax, income tax allows for the better off to pay a bigger proportion, VAT makes no such calculation[/I]

Except it isn't that simple in the UK due to zero-rated food, childrens' shoes & clothing and 5% energy.

Consequently I would suggest that the better off pay a higher percentage of their income in VAT than the poorest.

so lying is the best way to win votes?

You know very well that it wasn't a lie

It may well have been the less than transparent application of an officially published government figure, without the associated caveats... but it most certainty was [b]not[/b] a lie. No more than it was a promise either.

Still, keep holding on to that figleaf of victimhood if it assuages your sense of butthurt.

😆

teamhurtmore - Member
It's a negotiation. We don't know for sure what the result will be except that it will be worse than the status quo. But the turkeys have voted

Democracy doesn't have a for better or worse, till death do us part clause. If it's worse you can actually go to the polls and get a divorce.

You just need people to support that call for a poll.

"It may well have been the less than transparent application of an officially published government figure, without the associated caveats... but it most certainty was not a lie. No more than it was a promise either."

...and it's been revised upwards so we can all keep taking about it.

As the cost of Brexit becomes clearer, the Government plans to cull the elderly in order to save money on social care in order to fund the diplomacy and bureaucracy required to extricate the country from EU.

The cull will initially be purely voluntary, and volunteers will be sought amongst the millions of elderly Brexit voters.

“We’re reasonably confident that a voluntary cull will be a success,” said a spokesperson for the government.

“After all, we are talking about the wisdom of age here. I can’t imagine a great many old people would actually want to see the state of the country after Brexit, so they’ll be quite happy to be culled.”

The cull will take place over a fortnight at Wembley Stadium with entertainment from the Strictly Come Dancing dancers and comedy from Christopher Biggins.

The volunteers will be given a nice cup of tea and a Marks and Spencer biscuit before having a bolt shot into their brain.

“Would I prefer Brexit or a bolt in the brain?” said pensioner Simon Williams.

“I may be old, but I’m not a fool. I’ll take the bolt in the brain.

I'm still in favour of remaining, I've seen nothing that's been put forward to convince me otherwise.

I'm still in favour of remaining, I've seen nothing that's been put forward to convince me otherwise.

Why on earth would anyone feel the need to put things forward to convince you? We've already voted,

Why on earth would anyone feel the need to put things forward to convince you? We've already voted

There are some bewilderingly stupid/insensitive/out of touch things said on this thread but this wins for today at the very least. Unless you are just being unnecessarily nasty again.

I mean, why would the government want to explain to get the country working in unity towards a common goal rather than splitting it in two even further.

Why on earth would anyone feel the need to put things forward to convince you? We've already voted,

In an advisory referendum which appears to have asked a very stupid question to which very few understood the consiquencies.

So where is the 350M for the NHS? If it didn't exist then it is lie, no ifs no buts. As leave made it a central plank of their campaign it matters, and it's not like your average election where we get to vote in 5 years. This is a one off, leave and their is no going back. IMO ever, 40 years of bullshit.

On more positive notes looks like pension age is being revised up again. What joy no NHS, no pensions.

ninfan 🙂

As highlighted by Farage today this Sunday is another potentially significant day.

Re-run of Austrian Presidential election (50.1/49.9 Green/Far Right last time). Far Right candidate has said he wants to hold an EU Referendum, also quite likely he would call a general election as his party is riding high in the polls.

Italian consitutional reform referendum, Prime Minister likley to resign if he loses (expected ?).

In an advisory referendum which appears to have asked a very stupid question to which very few understood the consiquencies.

Simple and clear question
Extraordinarily obnoxious to suggest Leavers didn't understand the consequences. They absolutely understood we would leave the EU, the single market and that there could be an initial cost which would be a fraction of the Armageddon predicted by Cameron/Osbourne/IMF etc

Don't get too excited there Jamby you might do yourself an injury. Not sure anyone could see a positive in political uncertainty in Europe though, benefits nobody.

They absolutely understood we would leave the EU, the single market and that there could be an initial cost which would be a fraction of the Armageddon predicted by Cameron/Osbourne/IMF etc

So where is the 350M for the NHS? If it didn't exist then it is lie, no ifs no buts. As leave made it a central plank of their campaign it matters, and it's not like your average election where we get to vote in 5 years. This is a one off, leave and their is no going back. IMO ever, 40 years of bullshit.

[img] [/img]

350M for the NHS. Where is it?

The little girl up there seems to understand.

You know very well that it wasn't a lie

It may well have been the less than transparent application of an officially published government figure, without the associated caveats...

🙄

when the reality is several million less for the NHS I think its fully worthy of a veruca salt tantrum!

Norway's Ambassador has announced they will soon begin trade "policy" discussions with the UK.

Don't get too excited there Jamby you might do yourself an injury. Not sure anyone could see a positive in political uncertainty in Europe though, benefits nobody.

My point is twofold. Firstly eurosceptism is very strong and growing throughout Europe, the project is fundamentally broken and deeply unpopular. Reform of the EU is in Britain's interest even as a non-member.

We're be alright for pickled herring then?

Thats a relief

Reform of the EU is in Britain's interest even as a non-member

Which as a non member we have no input into.
Brexit: making us smaller and less significant by the day !

Extraordinarily obnoxious to suggest Leavers didn't understand the consequences. They absolutely understood we would leave the EU, the single market and that there could be an initial cost

None of the leavers I have spoken to had any idea there would be any cost (especially not a cost that is higher than if we stayed in)
They seemed to think we would just be £350MM a week better off. Can't think what led them to believe that.

They also have no knowledge of single market and implications around that.

There will be less immigrants though won't there?

None of the leavers I have spoken to had any idea there would be any cost (especially not a cost that is higher than if we stayed in)
They seemed to think we would just be £350MM a week better off. Can't think what led them to believe that.
They also have no knowledge of single market and implications around that.
There will be less immigrants though won't there?

I think this says a fair bit about your social circle and contributes no arguments for/against EU membership.

Norway's Ambassador has announced they will soon begin trade "policy" discussions with the UK.

Not a huge surprise when they need to sell us more energy and also we have a lot of communication and trade with North Sea O&G already.

Reform of the EU with no say rather than reform of the EU WITH A SAY, isn't that a very very stupid position to put yourself in????

Reform of the EU with no say rather than reform of the EU WITH A SAY, isn't that a very very stupid position to put yourself in????

What is the value of 1/27th of a 'say'? I suspect any "say" we have is dependent entirely on how much EU produce we buy rather than whether we're members or not.

Look at the vast influence the USA has in the EU without being a member.

I think this says a fair bit about your social circle and contributes no arguments for/against EU membership.

I think it says a lot about a lot of people, the reasons I have been given are nhs and immigration. And far less commonly trade opportunities.

People care about what they know, the NHS is failing, house prices are rising and the media has blamed both on immigration. On health tourists, asylum seekers, the EU. Etc etc.

Which as a non member we have no input into.
Brexit: making us smaller and less significant by the day !

I believe David Cameron tried this before the referendum, it didn't work.

Both the Remain side, and the EU seem to be in complete denial about how people feel about the EU, and not just in the UK either. It seems to be happening all over Europe.

I voted Remain, but i'm finding this "let's cancel" it approach pretty frustrating. I mean the Tories promised this referendum going into the Election - do we cancel that as well?

I'm wondering if the leaders of the EU are going to realise they need to very significantly change the EU before it collapses? i.e. No freedom of movement. And if they do, do we stay in or carry on leaving?

What is the value of 1/27th of a 'say'? I suspect any "say" we have is dependent entirely on how much EU produce we buy rather than whether we're members or not.

What is the value of politicians looking for electoral gains? France Germany MEPs etc

If some people loose their jobs will it be Berlin or Brussels at fault or would it be UK?

Westminster has played the blame game for 40 years, it works very well.

I'm sure I don't have to repeat the well rehearsed reasons for revisiting, amending or even [b]ignoring what the people apparently want. [/b]

No I understand clearly that you (we) know better therefore you (we) should ignore the majority who don't. That's only fair as we are right and they are wrong. And to keep Joe and his mates happy we can and will repeat this as many times as is required. Back in you place thickos!

It's all very well asking the people their opinion on something,

Are you sure?

but if that opinion is based on a something that simply isn't possible, then it's worthless.

Sorry Joe, sounds like you can't have another go under daz's rules.

Are people in Europe anti schegen though? Plenty live and work across borders.

Yes there is an issue with migrants but it isn't going away. There are some screwed up countries and human nature is to find a better life. Do you want to live I a war zone? If you ant to stop migration then the only solution is to stop the reason people want to move. You either make the destination intolerable or you make the departure tolerable.

The stupid thing is/was that the EU was never going to survive in its current format so we were voting to not be part of something that wasn't going to exist anyway.

That's were the whole thing broke down at the start.

Brexit looking less likely according to the invective tracker. The butthurt comment just tipped it over the edge 🙂

They absolutely understood we would leave the EU, the single market and that there could be an initial cost which would be a fraction of the Armageddon predicted by Cameron/Osbourne/IMF etc

[img] [/img]

Reform of the EU with no say rather than reform of the EU WITH A SAY, isn't that a very very stupid position to put yourself in????

We were offered that remember?

Cameron went to th EU and negotiated a new deal, he asked for reform, what did he get?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/19/camerons-eu-deal-what-he-wanted-and-what-he-got

So yes, we were offered reform, and rejected it.

HoratioHufnagel - Member
I'm wondering if the leaders of the EU are going to realise they need to very significantly change the EU before it collapses?

aahh the imminent collapse, think we're nearly 10 years into that! 😆

THM, still running scared of another Scottish Referendum, even to his own detriment! 😆 staunch unionism, at it's finest!

I believe David Cameron tried this before the referendum, it didn't work

I don't think you are accounting for Cameron's incompetnce there

The Negotiators he dealt with said they were surprised how poorly prepared and how bad his negotiation stratagey was.

A lesson for us as we try to negotiate Brexit terms and future trade deals

The Negotiators he dealt with have dive said they were surprised how poorly prepared he was and how bad his negotiation starter was

Blaming anyone but the EU for the piss poor offer of reform that lost them the referendum is just more:

[img] [/img]

Blaming anyone but the EU for the piss poor offer of reform that lost them the referendum is just more:

the piss poor list of 'reforms' cameron asked for in the link you provided show nicely that he blew the referendum, his career and the future of the country all by himself

[img] [/img]

THM, still running scared of another Scottish Referendum, even to his own detriment! staunch unionism, at it's finest!

But running a very distant second to those who cant accept the result of the first.

I think you will find that wee nippy is the most anti a second referendum. Staunch independence-ism at its finest.

But you are consistent that its only a commitment if your side wins, democracy at its finest - at least we agree on the latest religion thread BTW if not here!!!

Dave's agreement will be viewed in hindsight as the pinnacle of what could have been. Ok he oversold it, but its been all downhill since

Dave's agreement will be viewed in hindsight as the pinnacle of what could have been.

Definitely, nothing was the best he could have achieved. Cameron did his road trip and the EU member countries oushed back and so he couldn't even ask for the required concessions. The EU took a punt we would vote Remain and/or the UK would do a Norway and simoly ignore the result. That is why many voted Leave and why the "Remain and Reform" crowd are deluded.

Sky News (live on web / youtube) joint press confrence due with Polish PM and May

Jambas, if people actual read what Dave achieved they would avoid making mistakes on fundamental issues such as expose to the EZ. But hey, who needs experts and/or facts

Easy bet will be to comparer Feb 18-19 result with whatever we end up with and then thinking WTF was that all about?

Thanks for the heads up, Jamba. Watched it and heard nothing new.

Nice of the Polish PM to thank May for protecting Poles from the violence they have been subject to since Brexit vote.

Meanwhile Anna Soubry is on Five Live now, doing her bit as one of the two members of the Tory party who isn't a foaming at the mouth, unhinged, xenophobic lunatic.

She's been talking about the levels of abuse she's been receiving from the Leave lot. They're a lovely bunch

I don't often watch Sky. Since the Polish PM/May press conference I've left it on. I'm now up to three WTactualF moments. That John Lewis Boxer dog ad is most irresponsible ad I've seen in a long time. Time to zap to something a little less in my face I think.

That is why many voted Leave

I think you will find a lot of people voted Leave to 'save' the NHS with 350 million a week, and don't give a shit about the in's and out's of the EU project, but you already know that.

Without that lie, we would have remained, with it we are leaving.

Only positive will be if Johnson and Gove get convicted of Electoral fraud and get some jail time; then we can watch them fight on youtube for a joint of spice.

The whole vote was stupid. It would have been better worded as "do you want to continue with the membership of the eu as it currently stands" or..... well I give up here as that is my point. We have found out that we still exist in our current economic and political environment even though we have voted leave and now we need to create something else that is not the status quo that still works economically and politically. You can vote for a negative but it's impossible to make policy with a negative.

I think you will find a lot of people voted Leave to 'save' the NHS with 350 million a week,

Got any data to back up your bullshit claim?

Only 11% cited the entire sphere of public services as a major issue, let alone extra money to the NHS

[IMG] [/IMG]

I think you're just, as discussed before, clutching to a figleaf of 'they only won because they lied' to avail you of the butthurt of not getting your own way

[img] [/img]

Got any data to back up your bullshit claim?

If the NHS was so insignificant to the vote, why did vote leave write it on a bus?

TBH, my attitude is people need to now reap what they have sown.

However I'm fortunate enough that I don't need to be in the UK and I have access to a EU passport; and I'm not a low earner and have private health insurance (as the NHS is screwed as this has to be paid for somehow) and other safeguards, so I have a good buffer to protect me from the ****-tardery of brexit.

Only thing I find upsetting is it's now considered OK to be a racist bigot and most of the Europeans I work with have suffered more racist abuse in the last 6 months, than they did in the 10 years+ prior to the vote.

11% in a vote that was won by 2%

I know maths may not be your average leavers strong point 😉 , but....

ninfan you are better off not posting up links that disprove your own argument and just jambafacting it with as much bravado as you can muster

That poll is hardly a true reflection either, as many / most of those responses are inextricably linked*.

So the 33% who listed immigration as a major factor will have done so not necessarily from a position of 'because I *ing hate *s' (although clearly for some that is/ was the issue), but because of the impact that they perceive immigration has on public services, housing, etc, without explicitly saying that they are concerned about the impact.

[* At least i hope they are because if 1/3 of people polled are concerned about immigration simply because they actually do hate immigrants, then I'm deeply ashamed of my country]

Edukator its the best easily accessible English news, bbc international is dire. They have quite a few special reports etc you can access on web/youtube. Obviously has a bit of a right leaning bias.

They should have put £200m a week, Farage said so too. I stand by my point that it's a right laugh how much the Remainers are focusing on it as the reason for their defeat.

Leave campaign was very smartly run.

EU no. Europe yes.
Take back Control

The latter in particular was simple and powerful. A winner.

They should have put £200m a week, Farage said so too. I stand by my point that it's a right laugh how much the Remainers are focusing on it as the reason for their defeat.

Leave campaign was very smartly run.

EU no. Europe yes.
Take back Control

The latter in particular was simple and powerful. A winner.

Its focused on because its the perfect example of Vote leaves constant lies writ large (literally and figuratively)
Post Truth politics at their finest 😉

Take back Control- a winner it may have been but brexishambles has shown it be another lie

They should have put £200m a week, Farage said so too. I stand by my point that it's a right laugh how much the Remainers are focusing on it as the reason for their defeat.

Indeed, why would leavers waste their intellectual capacity on the NHS when there's bloody foreigners to worry about. Nothing to do with spending money on the NHS.

Leave campaign was very smartly run.

By Lord Cardigan's descendants?

#fakecontrol

[i]Only 11% cited the entire sphere of public services as a major issue, let alone extra money to the NHS[/I]

That chart doesn't actually show whether people voted in or out, for example 'impact on British economy' could be either way. And tbh vote could've voted in because they see that it's important that we keep (semi) open borders as a means to ensure we can get quality people easily.

Erm, yes, precisely...

So claiming that lots of people voted to leave to save the NHS is just complete #Remainderbollocks

And when the UK court Took back control, the Leavers moaned it was unfair. 😆

[url= http://theconversation.com/hard-evidence-how-areas-with-low-immigration-voted-mainly-for-brexit-62138 ]http://theconversation.com/hard-evidence-how-areas-with-low-immigration-voted-mainly-for-brexit-62138[/url]

If we're doing immigration, explain why those areas with fewest voted out?

"If we're doing immigration, explain why those areas with fewest voted out?"

Occam's Razor says because immigration wasn't their reason for voting Brexit.

Because racism breads in areas where outsiders are rarer.

If we're doing immigration, explain why those areas with fewest voted out?

It does not really matter why people voted leave. leave does not mean that the Uk can do whatever' it wants. Leave does not mean we get 350m for the nhs. Leave does mean we take back control as what ever international agreements we have in the future they will still require give and take. Leave does not mean we do not need to pay to have a civil service. Of course we can chose to have a really small state with Reduced planning, regulations, Employment and environment protection and free trade but as this is the opposite of what people's day to day concerns are I am not sure that would be very popular.

mrmo - others have already answered, but here's a key bit from your link

It was where those socio-economic characteristics occurred in places with a predominantly white British population, that the Leave vote was strongest. [b]So where migrants were not present, it appears they were held partly to blame for the all-too-real, but much deeper-seated, economic difficulties experienced by locals.[/b]

Telling.....

well said nickjb ^

So claiming that lots of people voted to leave to save the NHS is just complete #Remainderbollocks

You really do underestimate the brains behind the Leave campaign.
The talk of saving the NHS was linked VERY strongly to immigration.
Do you not remember the video? The bus slogan was just the rallying cry.
The drip drip "detail" was linking immigration to failing services, by suggesting that delays were because immigrants were In the queue before you, and because they are are a financial drain on the UK. This was paired with the idea that the EU was a financial drain preventing the UK from investing in services like the NHS. All disingenuous, yet strongly believed by out voters.
Go watch the video... and then think about the results of that poll again. Immigration was the headline response. But then question those same voters why immigration matters, and they'll tell you about "services" and wage levels and cost of living. Using NHS and large claims of lost money as the rallying cry made perfect sense.

It's well known that the most virulent xenophobes are those who haven't met foreigners. White rural middle-class Little Englanders were petrified at getting over-run by Poles. I know, I'm surrounded by them where I live (the former, not the latter!).

"If we're doing immigration, explain why those areas with fewest voted out?"

Really?

Slough (58% White British, lowest outside London) : Leave
WIndsor and Maidenhead (neighbouring constituency, 77% White British) Remain