[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Business isn't run with reference to the medium / long term its all about short term and they want an easy and free of cost life

And... You sure about this? They plan like, oooo, 2 days ahead?

No long term construction projects or 10 year contracts? Pension companies? Mineral & Petroleum companies? Knockup a rig over the weekend, drain the German Ocean of crude and back in time for tea, eh?

The NHS only gets a tiny amount because it doesn't bother to invoice other countries as explained in previous pages.

The NHS only gets a tiny amount because it doesn't bother to invoice other countries as explained in previous pages.

Molgrips. Controlled immigration yes. Eg casual farm workers (lorry drivers etc) must have a health insurance acceptable to nhs (Farage idea) other workers will have good jobs paying enough tax and ni to cover the cost of providing nhs cover.

Don't companies pay tax to the UK government? I know some pay very little.

They do but imo insufficient to cover membership. If companies want to be in the EU as they benefit they should pay for it. Now that doesn't address all the other issues of course inc the very significant costs in terms of stress on housing and public services from uncontrolled migration

May is offering tariff free access to the UK

Tarriff free is one thing, subsidized industry is another. For example. Agriculture.

You CANT be that naive. You just can't be.

Far as I'm concerned there should be no freedom of movement. Why should them from Tame valley be allowed over th'hill t Colne valley a mean thall, thall be drinking us beer n shaggin us sheep. In Free Yorkshire thall need sumot t prove who the is before thall be any doctorin n such like, n as fear get tha sprogs born ere, unless you can prove they play league or cricket, that can wobble back home an ave born on parish in Lancashire. Freedom for Yorkshire, freedom from bloody rest yer an all.

They do but imo insufficient to cover membership.

You may be right. I think you probably are but by proxy-their employees pay tax and, depending on the product, the purchasers pay tax, too.

The NHS only gets a tiny amount because it doesn't bother to invoice other countries as explained in previous pages.

Because they don't ask for ID or proof of entitlement. IMO another good example of how the NHS doesn't work from an organisational standpoint. The NHS doesn't really have a system to ask for money whereas ime every French clinic and hospital does.

If you didn't have freedom of movement the nhs wouldn't be under this additional pressure which is not fully recognised and costed not least as no one is collecting the data. Classic political BS, "there is no evidence of" because they are not even asking the question.

Now that doesn't address all the other issues of course inc the very significant costs in terms of stress on housing and public services from [s]uncontrolled migration[/s] [b]decades of underinvestment by successive UK governments[/b]

FIFY, providing schools and hospitals for tax payers is a good deal
[img] [/img]
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/unemployment-rate
Falling unemployment going to be near zero once all the immigrants are gone

Freedom for Yorkshire, freedom from bloody rest yer an all.

You can always tell a Yorkshireman.

But not much. 😀

Molgrips. Controlled immigration yes. Eg casual farm workers (lorry drivers etc) must have a health insurance acceptable to nhs (Farage idea) other workers will have good jobs paying enough tax and ni to cover the cost of providing nhs cover.

They already have health insurance from their own country don't thye? Assuming they carry an E111.

[i]Because they don't ask for ID or proof of entitlement. [/I]

As pointed out previously, nothing is set up for this - and having a UK passport is irrelevant.

A person who is regarded as ordinarily resident in the UK is eligible for free treatment by a GP. A person is 'ordinarily resident' for this purpose if lawfully living in the UK for a settled purpose as part of the regular order of his or her life for the time being.

It is a total failure of UK Govt's that means we do not seek re-compensation for non-UK resident medical expenses, but don't forget to factor in the cost of putting in a system to work this out. Since 99% (?) or more of costs are for folk who are entitled to them.

Jamba EU residents are entitled to free care. There are mechanisms in place to ensure those that have to pay do so. Its just you don't know what they are. On everyones electronic patient record ( here in Scotland) is a coding that states their entitlement and a dedicated team then chase them for payment if needed.

the same mechanisms ensure we are refunded by EU systems

Just because they don't have a cash register does not mean mechanisms are in place. It does require honesty from the patients tho but thats usual to get.

I can still remember my UK national insurance number. The last time I visited a dentist in the uk (why do I always break teeth on holiday?) the receptionist asked me my address which confused her, so I quoted my national insurance number which she didn't want, I produced an E111 (it's a card now Molgrips) which she wasn't interested in either. In the end she took the address where I was staying and gave me a bill for the full amount, which I paid. No cost to the NHS.

Madame went to an optician in the Uk as you have to wait ages for non-urgent eye tests in France. She had to pay the bill in full as they wouldn't accept the EU card.

So we've cost NHS nothing on our visits. My mother-in-law had a hip replacement when she fell whilst on holiday in France and it cost her nothing thanks to her E111. She had to pay the ambulance (as would a french person) and that was it.

But if Britain wishes to put people off visiting because they know they'll need expensive health cover as they do for the US then so be it. Plenty of other city breaks in the travel agent windows.

Jamba EU residents are entitled to free care.

And anyone else who lives here, EU or not. EU people are eligible when they are just visiting too.

Edukator - those things are still payable to us, not just visitors. That's why the dentist and the opticians have checkouts and cash registers and people to take your money.

Not quite molgrips - anyone is entitled to free emergency care. However non eu residents have to pay for routine stuff ie getting prescriptions filled, follow up on emergency care, childbirth etc

Oh - and health tourism is a complete non issue. It happens so rarely and costs so little that its not worthwhile doing anything about

We do know exactly who shuld pay and who should not - its in your patient records ( electronic in scotland) and is checked by a dedicated team to make sure that everyone who should pay is paying

Not quite molgrips - anyone is entitled to free emergency care. However non eu residents have to pay for routine stuff ie getting prescriptions filled, follow up on emergency care, childbirth etc

People who are UK resident get everything - it's not dependent on being a UK citizen or an EU one.

Now that doesn't address all the other issues of course inc the very significant costs in terms of stress on housing and public services from uncontrolled migration

😯 this doesnt become true magically merely through repetition. Most E EU migrants go home for medical cover and in aggregate contribute positively to funding public services.

😯 😯

Plus we dont have uncontrolled migration.

Now that doesn't address all the other issues of course inc the very significant costs in terms of stress on housing and public services from uncontrolled migration

As the country is making money from immigration (taxes taken but service not used - schools, hospitals etc,. as most immigrants are young, healthy and working) then it is a government issue as to why the money is not being spent on housing and public services not an immigration issue.

As the country is making money from immigration (taxes taken but service not used - schools, hospitals etc,. as most immigrants are young, healthy and working) then it is a government issue as to why the money is not being spent on housing and public services not an immigration issue.

Quite agree, I belive most if not all issues can be attributed to central and local government administration - but it's easier to blame the darkies and the EU, so they can carry on as normal. If they succeed in removing darkies and EU from the equation, they'll just blame some other group...

[i]Interesting[/i] article on YouGov.co.uk by their Head of Political and Social Research:

[url= https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/11/16/trump-brexit-front-national-afd-branches-same-tree/ ]Trump, Brexit, Front National, AfD: branches of the same tree[/url]

Talks about the rise of "Authoritarian Populism" as a separate thing from the old left/right splits.

[img] [/img]

fascinating reading Graham

heavens to grundo, there are some predictably daily-mail-esque replies though!

[url= http://www.bbc.com/news/business-38062164 ]Government borrowing fell by more than expected to £4.8bn in October[/url]

Government borrowing fell by more than expected to £4.8bn in October, thanks to a record amount of tax income for that month, official figures show.
The amount borrowed was £1.6bn lower than for the same month last year.
From April to October, the financial year to date, borrowing, excluding state-owned banks, fell by £5.6bn to £48.6bn, the lowest for the first seven months of a tax year since 2008.
The figures come a day ahead of the Autumn Statement on Wednesday.
Economists had expected borrowing to come in at £6bn last month.
Overall tax income in October was the highest since records began, driven in part by a 23.6% jump in corporation tax receipts.

Yes BUT.....(and good news on tax revenues)

We are still borrowing much more that budgeted for and will smash the fiscal year borrowing targets on the up- (ie wrong) side. Austerity eh?

TMH. We just don't know that as no one is collecting the data

We know we have a £600m deficit in paid/received
We know the Germans pay £700m pa in unemployment benefits to EU citizens all of whom are entitled to health care - so if we read across to the uk ...

Our welfare system and nhs aren't setup to cope with eu freedom (non contributory benefits, no id checks / payment mechanism). Now you can argue we should have addressed that but can you imagine the political resistance and the costs ...

yay corporation tax receipts up

so we are going to slash them to stop companies leaving post brexit...... 🙄

Jamba - I have already told you this is nonsense. There are mechanisms in place to find out who is due to pay and dedicated teams to make sure they do. Your figures are also nonsense - national audit office says the deficit is £200 million ( and I don't believe that for a moment) thats between what we do receive and what we should receive.

Strengthen the existing mechanisms if you like but no frontline NHS worker should be checking passports. Remeber we don't have ID cards - so what about the person who looks a bit forign but has lived in the UK all their lives but has no passport or driving license?

Yes we pay out a lot more in healthcare contributions towards the EU for our UK citizens than comes back - that is because we export our pensioners to spain, we import young fit people. Which group has higher healthcare costs?

Yes they are - health tourism is a non-issue PERIOD. The data is available on usage (low) and on contribution to funding services (positive). Yes, we are are poor at reclaiming what is due to the NHS but that is a separate issue.

But it is incorrect to state that EU migration is a "significant cost.... etc." It ISNT. Fact.

Its not an issue in the grander scheme of things other than pandering the xenophobic wings of UK society. In that respect, its a trump card sadly. 😯

NSFW .. could have gone in a few threads ... 2016 ... facebook link

TJ 'twas on the bbc website a couple of days ago .. paid £650m received £50m

IMHO giving someone full access to the nhs and welfare because they have a job paying £10k pa is nonsense, totally daft

If we had a Referendum on joining the EU even including all the opt outs it would in my view without a shadow of a doubt be a big fat NFW

IMHO giving someone full access to the nhs and welfare because they have a job paying £10k pa is nonsense, totally daft

WHAT?

You've really exposed yourself as a total **** with that statement.

So you want to save all the good stuff for the rich people and the poor can have the crumbs?

IMHO giving someone full access to the nhs and welfare because they have a job paying £10k pa is nonsense, totally daft

yeah because poor people shouldnt be treated the same as the rest of us 😯

To be fair, Jamba has been consistent in his not giving a shit about anyone else.

Jamba - you are muddling up two different things yes we pay out more to EU healthcare for treating our citizens than we receive for treating EU citizens - because 1) we have less immigrants than emmigrants 2) our emigrants are mainly retired with greater healthcare needs

the uncollected amount is estimated at £200 million and that I doubt and that also includes all non EU citizens as well

NSFW .. could have gone in a few threads ... 2016 ... facebook link
>

br />

Brilliant. Shared just to offend my in-laws.

Molgrips .. I was referring to freedom of movement eu citizens. Having a high tax free personal allowance is a good way to support British citizens. You may be aware that the Australians are curtailing (doing away with ?) tax free allowances for non-citizen casual workers.

To be fair, Jamba has been consistent in his not giving a shit about anyone else.

I have been very fortunate to have good jobs and made my contribution, I am very happy to support our welfare state with the caveat that it is for the use of British citizens of whatever race and origin. When I have worked in the US and Singapore I have done so after getting a visa part of the qualification if which was how much tax I would be paying, ie was I putting in enough ?

Sky News covering the NHS issue today, Commons Select Committee statement by senior nhs figure who says they are looking into "radical" ways of getting paid back. Also Tooting hospital is asking for ID for expectant mothers coming in for scans as a result of the numbers of people with no right to be in the UK.

teamhurtmore - Member
The only poll that mattered on Brexit was on June 23rd, 2016.
the only one that matters going forward is the commons vote.

True, but in this context potentially disturbing. We had a vote, we got a result (albeit the wrong one IMO), now we have a responsibility to respect it and [b]exercise the will of the people.[/b]

Which is what exactly?

[I]IMHO giving someone full access to the nhs and welfare because they have a job paying £10k pa is nonsense, totally daft[/I]

Ok, what is the minimum someone needs to earn, presumably enough to pay tax/NI - £25k?

our emigrants are mainly retired with greater healthcare needs

Why are we (via the NHS) paying for emigrants health care? The NHS is a residence based system so surely we should only be paying for people who are temporarily overseas (I appreciate the country of residency wouldn't like that much though).

teamhurtmore - Member
Endless talk about "there is no plan" is becoming absurd. It's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Following a referendum result, we have entered a period that has no precedent. No one has chosen to leave the EU before. There is no blueprint. There are multiple scenarios all of which are subject to considerable negation with a diverse range of other parties. Both "sides" have laid out their starting points, the rest is up to negotiation which can only begin (in theory) once A50 has been triggered. There is little extra that can be done now. So pass the Act, trigger A50 and let's get on with working out how to make the best of this bad job

I agree trigger article 50.

But whatever deal is negotiated should be put back to the people.

Article 50 is the act of triggering the negotiation. Once the negotiation is completed, it needs to go to the European parliament to be ratified.

It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.
http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

The same should at least happen here. But since we are all advocates of people power here, I suggest we put the negotiated settlement to the people, before the 2 years are up.

Seems to me that the wording of article 50 is vague enough that it just means it's the period of negotiation, it doesn't mean that it can't be reneged upon.

IMHO giving someone full access to the nhs and welfare because they have a job paying £10k pa is nonsense, totally daft

Anyone else noticed the weird correlation between people who want to slag off the NHS, and people who claim "health tourists" flock here to exploit it?

The use of "health tourism" to describe costs to the NHS from EU/overseas users is incredibly loaded and IMO mostly dishonest. If you come to the UK to access health services, you're a health tourist. If you're in the UK for any other reason and subsequently use the NHS, you're not a health tourist. But [i]for mysterious reasons[/i] people want to conflate the two. It's almost as though the numbers for health tourism are too small for their purposes so they want to inflate them, eh.

I am very happy to support our welfare state with the caveat that it is for the use of British citizens of whatever race and origin

Not everyone who lives and works here and pays taxes is a British citizen. My wife, for instance. Plus several colleagues I've known.

And if you exclude non-British citizen taxpayers, you'll exclude pepole who shouldn't have to pay. My wife has spent lots of time not working, so in your eyes she should have to pay medical fees even though I've paid shitloads of tax?

That rule is in place for a reason.

have many of you talking of health tourism used the non-emergency NHS recently? Compared it toFrance or Germany? The idea of health tourism in the UK must appeal only to base jumpers orotherfans of extreme sports

irelanst - Member

Why are we (via the NHS) paying for emigrants health care? The NHS is a residence based system so surely we should only be paying for people who are temporarily overseas (I appreciate the country of residency wouldn't like that much though).

Because thats the way the reciprocal arrangements work. a retired UK citizen in spain gets the same access to healthcare as locals. the cost to Spain is reimbursed by the UK government. Same when a pole is over here and falls ill. they get free treatment and then the polish government reimburses us

So are you saying I should not be able to use the NHS Jambalaya?

I came in the UK on the 7th of October 1996 and started work on the 8th. Since then I've never been out of work and always employed, so always paid my NI.
Should I ask for a refund when I leave the UK next year?

But whatever deal is negotiated should be put back to the people.

Why - we (ok they) have vote Leave and that vote was based on a worst case scenario - unless folk are really dumb. The likelihood is that the end result will be better than this but not as good as the best case that TM is pushing for. Nor surprise so far, its a negotiation after all. But we cant keep going backwards and forwards to either Parliament or the Great British Public to finesse the detail. That has to be largely delegated if nothing else for practical reasons.

Seems to me that the wording of article 50 is vague enough that it just means it's the period of negotiation, it doesn't mean that it can't be reneged upon.

Its not vague, its just limited in scope hence there isnt much to renege on.

The first part of this is lauh out load funny 🙂 Blair .. everyone wants him back .. to campaign for Remain

Jamba - no answer to this?

There are mechanisms in place to find out who is due to pay and dedicated teams to make sure they do. Your figures are also nonsense - national audit office says the deficit is £200 million ( and I don't believe that for a moment) thats between what we do receive and what we should receive.

You see unlike you I know what is actually happening in the NHS and how it works. In your electronic notes is a code about your entitlement to free treatment and those who are not entitled get chased for the money.

@cchris not at all, under my scenario once we are out of the eu you'll have a visa and be perfectly entitled to use the nhs. Up until now anyone could come and be entitled to use the nhs which is the system which has existed and you are perfectly entitled to have the right of access.

By the way we went to the Urgence today (all ok) and my wife showed her ID and Carte Vital as normal, no big deal. Had it been me and as I can't find my EU health card I would have had to pay by credit card.

That Newsnight discussion - I feel sorry for the bloke, finding that you have to go and sell a turd and don't even have any glitter to roll it in.

TJ I answered already, I read those figures on BBC in the last couple of days and watched the Commons Seelct Committee excerpt on Sky News today "radical" measures the guy said.

Blair .. everyone wants him back .. to campaign for Remain

whats really funny is that the paucity of 'The Plan' for enacting Brexit that weve seen from leavers on here, prominent brexiters and the brexishambles government, Bliar keeping us in the EU seems like a good idea, assuming he can keep his warmongering to a minimum, things could only get better 😉

News just in, The Government are setting out their approach to brexshit.

Here it is: Blank piece of Paper

Is everybody now "CLEAR" on what's happening?

teamhurtmore - Member
But whatever deal is negotiated should be put back to the people.
Why - we (ok they) have vote Leave and that vote was based on a worst case scenario - unless folk are really dumb. The likelihood is that the end result will be better than this but not as good as the best case that TM is pushing for. Nor surprise so far, its a negotiation after all. But we cant keep going backwards and forwards to either Parliament or the Great British Public to finesse the detail. That has to be largely delegated if nothing else for practical reasons.

That's giving the tories a free hand to do with as they please, if not ratified by a ref, it must surely go back to parliament.

Blair come back as a Remain champion would certainly makes things interesting.

jambalaya - Member
The first part of this is lauh out load funny Blair .. everyone wants him back .. to campaign for Remain

At least Caroline Lucas has a backbone to put history in its place. 😛

If Blair has any official role in remain I suspect leave will enjoy a huge boost, jeeeez, I might join in with Jamba.

Edit: but seriously what can remain possibly gain from enrolling a war criminal with gift for poisoning everything he touches?

That's giving the tories a free hand to do with as they please, if not ratified by a ref, it must surely go back to parliament.

No, they have a responsibility to execute a mandate like any government. Ok, in this case its complicated by having three nutcases at the heart of the negotiations, but that's life.

We did not vote on leave under certain conditions. We voted leave full stop, knowing full well what the worst case scenario would be - some even agued that this was a good scenario.

So we have to let the government get on with it

Jamba - what about

There are mechanisms in place to find out who is due to pay and dedicated teams to make sure they do.

and I did explain where you got the numbers muddled. yes there is a 400+ million difference in what we receive and what we pay out - but this is a reflection of the differing health needs of the two populations. the whole difference is not money not collected.

You will not be getting frontline nurse and doctors ( and PAMS) checking passports. It would be against our ethics which have a statutory basis

[i]You will not be getting frontline nurse and doctors ( and PAMS) checking passports[/I]

Again, passports are irrelevant, we have a system that is free-at-point-of-use and is paid for by NI contributions.

To quote:

Free healthcare at the point of use comes from the core principles at the founding of the National Health Service by the Labour government in 1948. In practice, "free at the point of use" normally means that anyone legitimately fully registered with the system (i.e. in possession of an NHS number), including UK citizens and legal immigrants, can access the full breadth of critical and non-critical medical care without any out-of-pocket payment.

In fact, should Jamba get access to the NHS if he's spent time overseas NOT paying NI? 😉

In summary, from full facts

EU immigration contributes to financial pressure on the NHS, but its annual impact is small compared to other factors. Whether EU immigrants pay enough into the public finances overall to cover their costs is difficult to say, and researchers give different answers. However, it does appear that they make more of a net contribution than other groups. The UK doesn’t claim back as much as it could of the cost of treating Europeans who come here for a shorter period as visitors or to live as pensioners, which is mostly down to the NHS not asking for money it is due.

Amusing to follow a debate between two posters who routinely make inaccurate statements, so

This means the UK effectively gets a poor deal from these schemes. But the discrepancy is not closely linked to the fact of EU membership. It is largely down to the NHS failing to recoup costs as other EU countries do. Government papers suggest that this is because NHS trusts find it easier not to record that they are owed money from abroad, thereby getting full payment from the standard system without the extra admin involved in tracking foreign visitors.

what is the collective noun for people who consistently post inaccurate comments? 😉

a hurtmore?

Because thats the way the reciprocal arrangements work. a retired UK citizen in spain gets the same access to healthcare as locals. the cost to Spain is reimbursed by the UK government.

Thanks TJ – I think I knew that but I was probably muddling myself because whilst living in Holland I wasn’t covered by the NHS and had to take out Dutch health insurance (and have a valid Dutch issued EHIC to get treatment from the NHS when back temporarily in the UK). The difference of course is that I was working and not claiming a UK pension.

Another one to sign if you would be so kind.
http://euromove.org.uk/save-our-eu-citizenship/email-committee/

eamhurtmore - Member
That's giving the tories a free hand to do with as they please, if not ratified by a ref, it must surely go back to parliament.
No, they have a responsibility to execute a mandate like any government. Ok, in this case its complicated by having three nutcases at the heart of the negotiations, but that's life.
We did not vote on leave under certain conditions. We voted leave full stop, knowing full well what the worst case scenario would be - some even agued that this was a good scenario.
So we have to let the government get on with it

why you so intent on allow this debacle to happen, without any resistance?

1. For the same reason, that I accept any vote. Its called democracy. We (Remainers) had our chance but we blew it. So we have no choice other than to get on with life in the new world.

2. I simply want the negotiations to start and for a conclusion to be reached asap, as delays are worse than Brexshit itself. During this next stage there will be (considerable) flip-flopping and noise that will create (unnecessary) volatility in FX, interest rates, markets etc. None of this is good for business.

3. Its absurd to believe that negotiations can be conducted through Parliament and/or plebiscites. Equally its absurd and unhealty to use such arguments as a cloak and dagger attempt to reverse the democratic process. Sadly, that is what many of our politicians are seeking to do.

1. For the same reason, that I accept any vote. Its called democracy. We (Remainers) had our chance but we blew it. So we have no choice other than to get on with life in the new world.

The vote wasn't to leave the EU.

The vote was to advise the government if we wanted to.

Equally its absurd and unhealty to use such arguments as a cloak and dagger attempt to reverse the democratic process.

The democratic process isn't happening. The democratic process would've been a vote in parliament as to whether or not to accept the referendum result at all. There was no vote.

It was advisory.

You will not be getting frontline nurse and doctors ( and PAMS) checking passports. It would be against our ethics which have a statutory basis

Well today in a French hospital it was a frontline medical person who took my wife's carte vital and ID. Now normally it is indeed an admin person at front desk, he/she also has the credit card machine. The French get their money back as they are set up for id checks amd payments.

I am a bit confused by the demographics comment, we have more sick immigrants than we have sick emmigrants ?

molgrips - Member
It was advisory.

Negotiations arn't to be conducted through parliament, they can be informaly agreed between governments and then it is for parliament to ratify or throw out the proposals. It's a safeguard to prevent anything crazy happening, like a government pushing through a badly thought out deal, and how our democracy works.

Ya, the people have advised UK to leave EU.

My kids advise me of things all the time. I evaluate their requests then make decisions between me and the Mrs. I do what they want where it's practical.

Mol - get a grip!

molgrips - Member

Ya, the people have advised UK to leave EU.

My kids advise me of things all the time. I evaluate their requests then make decisions between me and the Mrs. I do what they want where it's practical.

...?

Ya, you decide for your family but we decide for you as Majority.

You know on Who Wants to be a Millionaire, when they have the 'ask the audience' option? The contestant doesn't have to go with the audience's vote. But he wants to know their opinion.

It's like that.

molgrips - Member
...?

molgrips - Member
You know on Who Wants to be a Millionaire, when they have the 'ask the audience' option? The contestant doesn't have to go with the audience's vote. But he wants to know their opinion.

It's like that.

Blair might not be the most likeable person but he knows how to win general elections and get people behind him.