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I don't think it is an issue, some seem to though. Same as you get the continuous foreigners coming over just to use the NHS complaints, which the NHS can reclaim most of anyway.
Still waiting to see the reaction when people realise that there will be no more booze cruises.
Cougar that logic works as we have a big trade deficit with the EU, if we move to tariffs we will collect £8bn more than we pay out. Italian Banks are on their knees, imo it's certain their whole financal system could not withstand a Greek default and in fact may collpase before then.
We shall see what comes of Merkel's remarks whilst she won't ask for it abandonning freedom of movement would go down bery well in Germany. Remember German Parliament is passing a law meaning no unemployment benefits for EU nationals until you have been resident 5 years (they have a different welfare system so can do this whereas for UK it wouod be an administrative nightmare)
PMQs today was pretty straightforward. Opponents claiming "shambles" where the reality is things are moving ahead exactly as Mrs May said they would. Tory haters here hating the Tories. Same old.
Still waiting to see the reaction when people realise that there will be no more booze cruises.
Let's wait and see what's agreed on beer, wine and spirits. French offer tva refund on exports ?
mrmo I think you'll find the nhs and other eu health services never get refunded. Thats why French want paying upfront.
Let's wait and see what's agreed on beer, wine and spirits. French offer tva refund on exports ?
is there a limit coming back from the Canaries, Switzerland, Norway, infact pretty much the whole world, except the EU.
There is the answer.
You will have to declare imports just as you would coming back from anywhere else in the world.
I don't think it is an issue, some seem to though.
They do and like most Brexshit stuff it doesn't hold up to scrutiny
In reality, Merkel is simply laying down the first set of ground rules for negotiation. Step 1 we might budge on definition/timing but not on the principle. Over to you guys....oh and p.s. can you hurry up please.
In reality, Merkel is simply laying down the first set of ground rules for negotiation. Step 1 we might budge on definition/timing but not on the principle.
And many of the "issues" don't exist beyond the media and the anti EU agenda they have pursued.
mrmo - none of the Brexshiteers 5 key points existed in reality. Their front page was a list of lies
Still waiting to see the reaction when people realise that there will be no more booze cruises.
Woah! Run that one by me again!
Are you saying I won't be able to buy loads of cheap French wine in Calais anymore?
mrmo - none of the Brexshiteers 5 key points existed in reality. Their front page was a list of lies
and 40 years of bullshit sees us where we are, Westminster at least is revealed as completely clueless. So i guess one good thing is emerging from this!
Pity that so many people will have their lives negatively affected in the fallout.
We can't blame the EU for us not claiming back health monies due.
But, we do need to be aware because we don't charge our own citizens (at point of care) there aren't any systems in place to easily count and charge non-citizens costs.
While putting these systems in place would IME would be seriously expensive, as in billions, not millions in both implementation and running costs it isn't beyond the wit of man to set up an online facility that is accessible by all trusts etc that could at a minimum claim back only those folk who admit they're non-UK; ie tourists etc.
Anything else would the get involved in checking compliance etc, which we don't do for anyone - imagine been refused A&E because you couldn't prove who you are, no ID cards here etc.
b r, which if westminster was honest and explained the situation would help. Yes it would cost money to claim back, is that more or less than the amount it costs? The debate is clear. etc etc
[i]The debate is clear. etc etc [/I]
Nah it's not.
Unless you're from a systems background plus understand what is in the NHS plus how it actually works you won't have a clue of the sheer level of cost/complexity behind this.
http://www.computerweekly.com/opinion/Six-reasons-why-the-NHS-National-Programme-for-IT-failed
br in simplistic terms it is, cost x benefit y, possible solutions, id cards etc
Granted the detail would be horrifically complex, but then again we asked the average voter did they want to leave the EU......
Let's wait and see what's agreed on beer, wine and spirits. French offer tva refund on exports ?
Hmm I never really understood how Customs&Excise could set limits on how much you could bring back from EU countries, didn't seem inline wiv the EU free movement of goods....
You could bring back as much as you want provided it was for personal consumption. So they assumed if you are bringing back a transit van a week it was unlikely to be for personal use as you'd be dead of alcoholism.
I speak German well enough to follow a Merkel speech perfectly. I've watched a lot of interviews with her over the years and she is very much in favour of freedom of movement. It won't be her that negociates it away. She lived in a divided Germany and fought against the divide. She opened the frontiers to how many refugees? And she's only the start of your worries. Have a look at what some of the politicians from the other 25 countries you have to get on board are saying. Then ther are the Americans to worry about or have you already forgotten Obama's last-in-the-queue comment.
Dream on Brexiters.
or have you already forgotten Obama's last-in-the-queue comment.Dream on Brexiters.
ahh but its trumplandia now
Ambassador Farage will really spoil us 😉
Yup, protectionist, isolationist Trump.
So all the hopes are that Merkel will compromise, great how do you get the rest of the members to vote for. It?
They do what Germnay tells than to do....it the EU
It won't be her that negociates it away.
I'll bet it won't be her too. Federal elections next year
She opened the frontiers to how many refugees?
Indeed, see above
Dutch ministry have estimated a hard Brexit will cost then €10bn a year (discussed during Newsnight Interview below). That's a lot of money for a country of 17 million people. When pressed on making a a deal all the Finance Minister could say was he wished the UK wasn't leaving the EU and ending freedom of movement whilst retaining single market access was poltically difficult. Yup agreed but there are 10 billion reasons per anum for Holland alone to make it worth the effort.
Interesting Edukator, as I posted she has described inviting the whole of Syria to Germany as a mistake even if only 1 million (mostly not Syrians) turned up, Germany is passing a law stopping EU nationals claiming unemployment benefit for 5 years (current bill €850m pa) .... I think behind the scenes she'll be pushing for restrictions
Then there are the Americans to worry about or have you already forgotten Obama's last-in-the-queue comment
The queue was only ever 1 deal long, TTIP. That's dead now. Trump said we'd be first in the queue which actually won't be difficult as it's zero deals long now 🙂
Story in the Guardian that there could be a European Travel Registration system as per the US for UK citizens, gosh €5 for 5 years unlimited entries. Bargain where do I sign up ?
When pressed on making a a deal all the Finance Minister could say was he wished the UK wasn't leaving the EU and ending freedom of movement whilst retaining single market access was politically difficult.
From 2 mins on he says its impossible to achieve he says impossible a number of times.he says it numerous time to various questions Your account is wrong- have you linked the correct video? He just seems to say we cannot have soft brexit and everyone loses. I am not sure how this in anyway helps substantiate your view.
If it costs them £10 billion - and he says worse off for both - then how much does it cost us?
Or is this another case where you point out how only the EU will be harmed and ignore the fact we will be harmed?
Dijsselbloem told the BBC’s Newsnight: “I think he’s[Boris] offering to the British people options that are really not available. For example, to say we could be inside the internal market but be outside the customs union, this is impossible, it just doesn’t exist. The opposite does exist. We have a customs union with Turkey but Turkey is not part of the internal market.“He’s saying things that are intellectually impossible, politically unavailable, so I think he’s not offering the British people a fair view of what is available and what can be achieved in these negotiations.”
For example, to say we could be inside the internal market but be outside the customs union, this is impossible, it just doesn’t exist.
Which is of course correct, but it is not what BoJo said. He talked about [u]access[/u] to the single market which loads of countries have, not being a member of it. The question is upon what terms that can be achieved.
“We want to leave the EU legal framework and treaties. We will probably have to leave the customs union, but that is a question that will be discussed,” Johnson told Czech daily Hospodarske Noviny, in remarks published in Czech.“I believe it can be done and at the same time maintain free trade and growing European economies.”
Free trade does not equal membership of single market, although that would be one way of achieving it, zero tariff trade agreements would achieve the same result.
Financial Times reporting that...
UK faces £100bn Brexit hole in budget Autumn Statement to reveal hit to growth and tax income over next five years.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38000580 ]and what a ridiculous state of affairs[/url] 😯
[url= http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/wirtschaftspolitik/deutschlands-fluechtlinge-in-grafiken-13867210.html ]Syrians are the biggest group in recent German immigration[/url] by a huge margin. Graph half way down the page.
the majority according to FAZkommt die Mehrheit aus Syrien
He talked about access to the single market
Indeed. Just as I have access to a Mercedes dealership. I just walk across the forecourt and there I am. Can I get a free Merc?
If a hard brexit will cost them 10bn, what will a soft brexit cost them vs us staying in?
It's like appeasement, what's next been asked for, Belgium free access with no fees to pay?
As always Jambalaya you are more interested in the damage and difficulties to all eu countries except the UK.
Head in the sand, can't face reality?
The refugee crisis is out of the EU's control. It is from what I can see a result of huge population growth in unstable countries that are unable to feed, or provide for their inhabitants. This has the potential to get even worse with climate change. If you lived in one of those countries imagine how bad we would have to make their experience of life living in Europe to make it a worse option than to stay at home.
None of the solutions offered by the left or right really do anything to fix the problem that people have babies. It is the best free way of having fun and it offers a chance of security. As far as I can see the best ways to deal with the crisis would be to spend billions sorting out the mess in Syria, Afganistan and Somali for example. This includes education and birth control. If one also goes down the right wing route of supporting European culture it may be a good idea to support families so they are secure and able to have more children.
[img] 
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[img] 
?&dataset%5Bwidth%5D=375&dataset%5Bheight%5D=250&dataset%5Bvisible_columns%5D=0&dataset%5Bgraph_title%5D=Population%20-%20Afghanistan[/img]
[img] 
?&dataset%5Bwidth%5D=375&dataset%5Bheight%5D=250&dataset%5Bvisible_columns%5D=0&dataset%5Bgraph_title%5D=Population%20-%20Somalia[/img]
It is from what I can see a result of huge population growth in unstable countries that are unable to feed, or provide for their inhabitants.
Not war then?
War comes under unstable. Maybe understating things.
"He talked about access to the single market which loads of countries have, not being a member of it."
Yeah, the biggest misunderstanding of the Referendum campaign was the idea that you don't have trade access to the EU unless you're a member.
You do, which is why you can buy South African wine and Chinese electronics.
Who started the wars that displaced all those people in the first three countries on your list GEDA? That's right, Tony Blair (Bush wouldn't have acted without him and it was Blair that provided the necessary lies). Britain.
Maybe if Eu countries, the US and Russia stopped bombing the hell of Syria and others there would not be so many refugees.
GEDA - Member
War comes under unstable. Maybe understating things.
Maybe that's the greatest understatement on this thread, even including jamby's farcical comments on negative impacts of Brexit on the uk economy
Bush wouldn't have acted without him
Is this actually true?
Maybe understating things.
Could you explain it to me then?
You say it's population growth, and show a graph of population in Somalia, but that country doesn't even feature on your graph of top 10 asylum seekers.
The top one is Syria, a country that prior to civil war, was a reasonable economy that could more than cope with it's population (all be it under Assad).
Cheers.
It's all a bit off topic though......
Blair has a lot to answer for, and I'm in no way admonishing him, but Bush would've happily have gone along regardless.
I'm pretty sure there was a memo or phone call where bush said as much
Syria and the west have been fighting for the last 30 years through proxies. Syria under Assad was the route of 90% of foreign fighters into Iraq, Lockerbie, etc
Bush tried to get other countries on board for his crusade and failed. Jacques Chirac relates how Bush tried to persuade him that that going into Iraq would fulfill biblical prophesies. Bush needed at least one significant ally and got Blair on board, it was getting Blair on board and Blair's WMD lies that Bush used to tip the balance in favour of war in the US. Chirac and Dominique de Villepin were aware of what the plan was thus the properly prophetic speech by de Villepin to the UN.
[url= http://rue89.nouvelobs.com/2007/09/17/un-petit-scoop-sur-bush-chirac-dieu-gog-et-magog-2911 ]Here's the original article in Nouvel obs'[/url], just Google "Chirac Bush Gog Magog" or similar for something in English. Blair and religious nut wife were no doubt more enthusiastic about the idea than Chirac.
Other explanations are possible
Edit: [url= http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/5/26/735697/- ]A not very reputable version in Enlish[/url]
Bush would have done it anyway.
Nobel idea, but remember Brexit is about pulling up the drawbridge and using foreign aid as a bargaining chip.As far as I can see the best ways to deal with the crisis would be to spend billions sorting out the mess in Syria, Afganistan and Somali for example.
“Our focus is poverty reduction – but that doesn’t mean we should exclude the whole area of trade and trade opportunities. British soft power is exactly where DfID [the Department for International Development], and our aid and other relationships around the world, come together to deliver in our national interest and deliver for Britain when it comes to free trade agreements but also life post-Brexit.” said humanitarian superstar Priti Patel.
Off topic???
Brexit=people don't like migrants.
Migrants are the result of external geopolitical forces
Unstable I though was a pretty common term for a country with problems to a failed state. [url= https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Fragile_States_Index ]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Fragile_States_Index[/url]
[url= https://www.google.se/amp/s/climateandsecurity.org/2012/02/29/syria-climate-change-drought-and-social-unrest/amp/ ]https://www.google.se/amp/s/climateandsecurity.org/2012/02/29/syria-climate-change-drought-and-social-unrest/amp/[/url]
[url= https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/climate-change-hastened-the-syrian-war/ ]https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/climate-change-hastened-the-syrian-war/[/url]
[url= http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2015/03/150302-syria-war-climate-change-drought/ ]http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2015/03/150302-syria-war-climate-change-drought/[/url]
Brexit=people don't like migrants.
Migrants are the result of external geopolitical forces
What external geopolitical force has caused almost a million British people to move to Spain?
I don't think Brexit was saying "We want our old age pensioners back!"
I did paste the wrong graph in for Afganistan:
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You said above that people were migrants because their home countries were unable to accommodate them and now you saying it is because external geopolitical forces?
Maybe we should drop condoms instead of bombs.
I don't think Brexit was saying "We want our old age pensioners back!"
That is not the point, they are migrants and apparently "Migrants are the result of external geopolitical forces" which is clearly not true and why I used migration to Spain as an example.
There will also be many migrants in the UK who live in UK just because they like it more/want to for whatever reason
And another firm , Deloitte, warns that they will move some business out of UK if immigration becomes too difficult.
Pensioners migrating in Spain is due to geopolitical forces. Political as in this case able to do it due to a political legal framework and economic as it is cheaper and they get a better quality of life.
Simple Definition of geopolitics
: the study of how geography and economics have an influence on politics and on the relations between nations
: the political and geographic parts of something
I thought it was the weather 😉
Looks like Nigel and his friends may have broken eu funding rules.
Oh dear.
As I swam along in the sunshine catching a glimpse of the snowy mountains on each stroke I can't say I was too concerned by the geopolitical forces that must have driven me to 43°N
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/16/european-ministers-boris-johnson-prosecco-claim-brexit ]Compulsory reading for Jamba[/url] What the EU politicians are really saying.
So that's what Jambalaya looks like.
“He’s saying things that are intellectually impossible, politically unavailable, so I think he’s not offering the British people a fair view of what is available and what can be achieved in these negotiations.”
TBF, thats what the great unwashed want to hear. So who is the fool.....?
Boris increasingly reminds me of one of those blokes being constantly promoted because of his incompetence.
More shite..
#letsmakeBrexiteerspay
[img] https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CxbxnCvWEAAZXDJ?format=jpg&name=large [/img]
It looks like EU might even disintegrate in the next few years probably earlier than predicted. 😆
What if there is no more EU say in 2 years time. 😛
I need my hat-trick ... 
It looks like EU might even disintegrate in the next few years probably earlier than predicted
If brexit goes ahead I wouldn't be massively supprised as it might well be the snowflake that started the avalanche, humans in not making small concessions to the massive detriment of all shocker.
Population graphhs and movement are very difficult to interpret, surely Gaza must be a wonderful place to live as the population has gone from 600,000 to 1,800,000 in 20 years ?
Bush would have done it anyway.
Exactly.
Dreadfully round number that @bikebouy ?
How much of a refund from the EU should the rest of the world get when the total mismanagement of the € crushes world growth and quite probably causes a global recession ?
Edukator why should the UK stay in a club and pay £10bn a year for the privilige of being insulted whilst the rest of the EU sells us more than we buy ? The fact is EU politicians have been insulting us for years for "holding back" their pet project, staying outside Shengen and not joining the euro. All very smart moves in hindsight. I have certainly seen the light since early 2000's
EU sells us more than we buy
how's that then?
The EU sells you exactly what you buy from the EU.
I think the insults started with Faridge, check out his EU parliament performances.
Staying outside Shengen made no practical difference, there's the Channel. Moving the border to France made a big practical difference as asylum seekers can't get onto English soil to claim asylum, say "merci".
The UK economy may have benefited from being in the euro, there is no comparison.
Just bear in mind that Britain is a tiny proportion of EU trade and the EU is a very big part of British trade.
The Euro seems to be doing just fine at present, unlike the pound. A bankrupt Greece is less of a problem to the EU than the bankrupt northern rust towns to the UK.
Exactly, and now with Boris threatening Italy with prosecco sales, I think the Italians did well not to laugh him out of the building, its like he's trying to bluff at poker but everyone knows our hand is an off suit 3 and 7.
It's embarrassingly cringe worthy.
how's that then?
Well spotted, actually it would have been hard to miss 😳 sells us more than they buy ...
Farage doesn't represent the Government, do the EU leaders mock France for Le Pen ... there are no shortage of eurosceptic MEPs. Edukator had we been on the euro we'd have been legally on the hook for a big chunk of the Greek bailout and by being outside the euro we where able to enact QE when it was needed not the too late version of the ECB
bluff at poker but everyone knows our hand is an off suit 3 and 7.
Did you watch the Newsnight interview with the Dutch Finance Minister I posted. A hard Brexit would cost Holland €10bn pa, that's their figure.
and the UK figure is £100millions .
or even billions .
Ever played poker with 27 other people who can share their hands? Nope, me neither 💡
Edukator had we been on the euro we'd have been legally on the hook for a big chunk of the Greek bailout
Progress!! Previously you had claimed that we were on the hook as it was - but wasnt.
But frankly it doesnt matter - if Europe stagnates so do we. There is nothing to gain in a lose:lose scenario and being happy that Europe has problems ignores the fact that we remain interdependent Brexshit or no Brexshit
TMH difference between the 2010 and 2014 (?) bailouts and the scenario where the whole thing blows up where we wouod have been dragged in, no doubt in my mind as you know. I think we will still get a call via the IMF but we will have The Donald putting the brakes on the whole thing.
and the UK figure is £100millions
No that's some sort of cumulative guesstimate over 5 years. We will have to wait for the actaul Autumn Statement next week to see what the numbers are and how they have been calculated.
No that's some sort of cumulative guesstimate over 5 years. We will have to wait for the actaul Autumn Statement next week to see what the numbers are and how they have been calculated.
you mean it's a number you don't agree with...
TMH difference between the 2010 and 2014 (?) bailouts and the scenario where the whole thing blows up where we wouod have been dragged in, no doubt in my mind as you know. I think we will still get a call via the IMF but we will have The Donald putting the brakes on the whole thing.
I simply don't understand this at all other than you are slightly backtracking on your previous position. In the past you have incorrectly described what happened in previous bailouts, and the current status of our exposure to the EZ. That is what I do know and understand. I have no idea what the point about Trump and the IMF is about. You contine to appear confused in this issue but I'm not sure whether this is deliberate or not.
How much is the CETA deal going to be worth to the EU states
could that offset their losses from a hard Brexit
of course we'll not see any benefits of that, once we are out
Then there are the advantages of being within a currency and free-movement zone.
Tourism; two less problems for your tourists. The cost and hassle of a passport can put people off a short stay.
Business; no currency risk or cost of hedging it, fixed prices. Easier accounting. Less time and money lost in transport. "Rip of Britain" is partly the result of a currency set to suit the city rather than the British economy as a whole. The BOE manages for the city.
Less risk of a currency failure not more.
Britain was quite happy to let Greece run up its debt. I'd like to bet the extra interest gained over the years with rates around 25% is greater than the currently outstanding debt. "Bailing out" Greece has made investors a fortune. My only gripe is that it's the private banks that have made the money while the IMF and ECB have taken the risk.
I see that Lord Kerr (who wrote article 50) thinks that "we British are so bloody stupid and need an injection of intelligent people, young people who come in and wake us up from time to time". The guy seems to be the foil remain need to combat Boris.
I't stuff like this that prove the case for us to be out of the Union. Free Yorkshire end the UK now!