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Imagine if we'd never had freedom of movement. Offices I work in that are full of people from all over Europe would be only British.
Some people might be happy about that, but not me.
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/15/supreme-court-judges-views-on-article-50-legislation-anger-leave-campaigners ]Another enemy of the people throwing a spanner in the works[/url]
and to quote...
The former work and pensions secretary Iain Duncan Smith said Hale had pro-EU views and warned that it was not the job of judges to tell parliament what to do. Duncan Smith said: “This is a very big step. If they were to do this it’s a constitutional crisis. What the judges will decide on at the supreme court is whether or not the government can use its executive powers to trigger article 50.“[b]It is not their job to tell parliament … how they should go about that business, that’s for parliament to decide[/b].”
He said “the individual concerned” had always opposed Britain leaving the EU, and said that he did not believe that would be a majority view in the supreme court.
The Conservative MP Dominic Raab said: “If judges dip their toes in political waters by making speeches outside the courtroom, they are asking to get splashed back.”
Raab did not question whether the comments suggested which way Hale would sway but argued that she simply should not have made any public comments. “I’m all for democratic debate. But you can’t have it both ways. If such a senior judge muses in public about a pending supreme court judgment, the judiciary can hardly scream blue murder if politicians, the media or public respond,” he said.
After the outcry over the high court ruling, the prime minister was told to calm the “mob”, with the former attorney general Dominic Grieve saying the coverage “started to make one think that one was living in Robert Mugabe’s Zimbabwe”.
To repeat this classic
“[b]It is not their job to tell parliament … how they should go about that business, that’s for parliament to decide[/b].”
I think the judgemnet did that exactly, it told the PM that it was for Paliament to decide and that seems to be what has got them all so upset.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37995606 ]How to use Boris ,Intellectually and vision in the same sentence[/url] 😀
What a mess!
Some of those comments from Brexiters are incredulous-
Of course it's the job of judges to say how the law works
People like IDS know this very well they just can't st lying can they?
Can we all get a badge that says Enemy Of The People?
Can we all get a badge that says Enemy Of The People?
Yes, and we can wear them in the prison we will be placed into - as that is where enemies of the people should be.
So glad my kids get to foot the bill for Brexshit 😐
Bollocks We love Boris.
If you haven't worked out by now that Boris says whatever he thinks will help 'Boris' at that precise moment and nothing else, then there's no hope for you.
50p says he's out by the next Cabinet reshuffle.
International trade policy? With whom will this exist?
USA - Donald ain't sharing his American Pie
India - requires free movement for a trade deal
China - they want to sell us stuff and buy our expensive houses - a form of asset stripping
Africa - needs to sell us stuff not buy Range Rovers (oops forgot we don't own them)
South America- mostly bankrupt
Turkey?
Offices I work in that are full of people from all over Europe would be only British.
Something I've not got about the desire to cut immigration: it's the van drivers etc (not denigrating, I know a few) who are meant to suffer from being competed against. But I'm likewise surrounded by people from all over, and wouldn't for a second feel we were doing anything other than benefiting from good people, even if I might be beaten to a job now and again...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37995606
Sort of sums BJ and other Brexiters up really, at best delusional.
as that is where enemies of the people should be.
😯
I'm trying to work out if you were being sarcastic there but if not then perhaps you should think about that comment and what it means.
Has Boris actually read the Treaty of Rome?
[img] 
[/img]
https://twitter.com/GuyVerhofstadt/status/798589132264116224
What price dignity?
Pretty sure Kissinger wouldn't have conducted diplomacy via Twitter...
What're you saying?
If there's one silver lining to this farce, it's that Boris has been revealed to be the two-faced **** he's always been. He'll never be PM and will never lead the Tories, which is a good thing.
I completely agree with Molgrips: I get into the lift every morning and hear French, Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Polish and other accents and I don't think 'spongers', I think how fortunate we are to have attracted talented tax-paying individuals.
Are you sure Nixon's security advisor and person behind the bombing of Cambodia into the hands of the Khmer Rouge is the ideal example of diplomatic dignity?
Boris is an idiot BUT Verhofstadt is sinking to his level and should have exercised impulse control.
What has happened to our political class when they revert to point scoring on twitter (like Trump)? Whether Boris is an idiot or not, he is foreign secretary of this country. I may think he shouldn't be, but I don't need a politician from Holland who should know better telling me that. The only result from Verhofstadts behaviour is that he increases animosity between the U.K. And EU, and for what? He should have had the sense and dignity to criticise behind closed doors, even if Boris doesn't.
What price dignity?
Pretty sure Kissinger wouldn't have conducted diplomacy via Twitter...
In [i]some[/i] ways it is a good thing, as it increases transparency BUT yeah it does reduce a lot of nuanced debate down to soundbites and witty retorts.
PS Johnx2 - I just knew someone would respond like that, well done.
FYI I just couldn't remember the name of the Treaty of Vienna person, so Kissinger was the next diplomat I thought of. Don't worry, I am totally appalled by whatever Kissinger did or maybe even didn't do.
He should have had the sense and dignity to criticise behind closed doors, even if Boris doesn't.
It's difficult to win a war for public opinion if you only express yours behind closed doors while your opponents broadcast theirs to the world.
Borris knows full well what hes doing-
pandering to the tabloids, so it can all be blamed on the EU when the negotiations fail to deliver
Boris is an idiot BUT Verhofstadt is sinking to his level and should have exercised impulse control.
Don't think so. Boris is rambling ill-informed and actually incorrect rubbish just to try and curry public favour in a highly damaging situation for everyone, which has been created out of public opinion.
Someone has to push back, don't they? Preferably someone who knows what they are talking about.
GrahamS - since when is it a war for public opinion on this point? Who is Verhofstadt trying to persuade with that Tweet? He is either preaching to the converted, or antagonising the rest. If you think this situation is a war of public opinion then I suggest you are very wrong, it's much more important and we need our representatives to treat it as such (Boris and Verhofstadt included).
Is Verhofstadt just giving the Brexiteer's a reality check to counter all the "We'll get what we want" claims.
At the end of the day, it's all the biggest **** up ever.
Not countering the lies of brexiters properly is whats got us in this mess
@molgrips - that's nice, but who benefits as a result of that Tweet? Temporary schadenfreude is as good as it gets. The forum for 'pushing back' is in serious negotiation, not Twitter.
Fair enough if the press had pushed back in this way, but not Verhofstadt given his role.
Now guys (and it does seem to primarily be guys on both sides) you've all been arguing hard - may I suggest a quick break for some music and relaxation. Themed of course.
Shall we start with Brexys Midnight Quitters and their tribute to Mrs May (it must be those heels) "She Got a Wiggle".
Any one else got a request? Not yet?
Ok how's about we go with a cover version?
Nigel Farage and "There'll Always Be an England - just maybe not a UK". Nice twist on an old classic there Nige - see you in panto.
And on with the Aaron, Borris and Nige (again - he does get about, though rarely at his day job in Brussels) in their supergroup the Brexy City High Rollers "Bye bye baby".
Anymore requests get them sent in - usual address, STE Chat forum
"Not countering the lies of brexiters properly is whats got us in this mess"
+1
Ad Homs can end a debate but they can't win it.
Mogrips you've just fallen into Boris' trap he really isn't badly informed and he certainly isn't an idiot.
It's reported this morning that Merkel is open to discussion around some restrictions on movement. Thing is the real debate and negotiations will go on behind closed doors and everything done in public is just pandering to the crowd and 'shadow boxing'.
Dragon - yep Boris is probably bright enough to know that Brexit is a bad idea on a whole variety of levels and also bright enough to try to arrange for someone else to get the blame.
mikewsmith - Member“It is not their job to tell parliament … how they should go about that business, that’s for parliament to decide.”
Beyond satire tbh.
. The Crown Prosecution Service are considering a "corrupt practices" case against the Vote Leave mob (which included high profile Tory government ministers like Boris Johnson) for lying to the electorate over claims like the "Let's give the NHS the £350 million a week ..." lie and their false claims that "Turkey is joining the EU
Bring that ON !!!
*High Five
One of the joys of spending 8 hours in a car yesterday was listening to the Deloitte story unfold during the day. The answer was always obvious, but the twisted road made for some entertainment on the metaphorical and real journeys!
The gov is split - no shit - there is not firm plan - really - because no one has done this before and its complicated - but we were told it was easy.....independence day!!!
Aye good point Dragon. Was just thinking that as I brought my coffee upstairs. They are playing either the public, the EU or both.
Hmm, a restrictive reading of article 3 ignores that it only applies for the purposes in article 2
TItle iii (Article 48-51) lays out in more detail what was actually proposed, in that it extended only to workers
Not retirees to the sun then old ninster?
biggest fourm ever?
Have we surpassed "crown race"?
Not retirees to the sun then old ninster?
I would take that as being the point that Boris was inelegantly stumbling towards like a drunken ape, yes.
Now then, no ape references, not even albino ape references.
😀
Interesting when you read those articles that it was also supposed to exclude all public sector jobs (I believe that ECJ case law decided this didn't mean what it said, and applied only to some public sector jobs)
Fair enough if the press had pushed back in this way, but not Verhofstadt given his role.
Interesting point about modern media.
Traditionally, a paper would've gone to Verhofstadt, asked him what he thought, and published it.
IF the paper's owners wanted to
IF the paper had the resources and prioritised it
IF the paper felt it ought to be seen to be responding but the owners are leavers and want to side with Boris so they selectively quote or misrepresent.
Should be even clearer than ever now that papers cannot be trusted to be honest. So if you want information reported correctly, tweet it yourself. If Boris doesn't want to be shot down, he shouldn't be tweeting bollocks in the first place.
I'm all in favour of this tweet.
It's reported this morning that Merkel is open to discussion around some restrictions on movement. Thing is the real debate and negotiations will go on behind closed doors
My point all along - Frau Compromise will deliver.
So in the end we will have slightly more expensive trade and less investment against slightly fewer darkies*... 😯
[* to be treated in the same manner as the sentence, not as reflective of my views]
I think the point is that Johnson is really getting under the skin of the EU ministers we have to negotiate with (Italian economic development minister, said aftera conversation with johnsons that the UK government’s stance was chaotic, yesterday)*
maybe its all part of a machiavellan plan to force them into offering us a hard Brexit that the public will reject it all and we can stay in like borris always wanted
or
hes just a dick
.
.
* re thms post- as Merkel is the one who wears die hosen in the EU, then there may be some sanity in there somewhere and the EU will throw us a bone, im not convinced the tabloids wont reject it or hail it as a great new deal
Should be even clearer than ever now that papers cannot be trusted to be honest. So if you want information reported correctly, tweet it yourself. If Boris doesn't want to be shot down, he shouldn't be tweeting bollocks in the first place.
Works two ways doesn't it, we don't know the full context of what Boris actually said, just a couple of choice quotes featured in a newspaper
Back to the themed Brexit songs, one of us wants to step up.
Apparently NINfan will be singing "Hurt"
True, but what he said did seem to be quite wrong. Hard to imagine what context would change that.
For those who object to Verhofstadt's mild mannered and polite Tweet I refer you to the OTT performances of Boris and Faridge and their insulting behaviour over the last year. The longer this drags on and the more anti-Europe hype from British politicians the more negative reactions I'm hearing. It's gone from surprise about the leave vote, and mild dismay to, in some cases at least, "un malin plaisir".
I think I'll join in, it changes the whole situation from something to deplore to something to smile about. Like watching an [url=
karma Youtube.[/url].
igm - MemberApparently NINfan will be singing "Hurt"
It'll be Piggy... "Nothing's turning out the way I planned".
GrahamS - since when is it a war for public opinion on this point?
I'd say politics is ALWAYS a war for public opinion. We just had a referendum where public opinion was felt even more strongly than usual and other countries in the EU face public pressure on immigration and freedom of movement and will soon have elections and possibly similar referendums.
Fair enough if the press had pushed back in this way, but not Verhofstadt given his role.
Look around at the press. Plenty of the quoting Boris' "Bollocks" comments.
How many of them have bothered to fact check them?
For some it is not in their editorial interest to do so, for some others they just don't do that type of journalisam.
However if Verhofstadt tweets back then at least there is a chance that may be reported (even if it negatively).
Apparently NINfan will be singing "Hurt"
Oooh the Johnny Cash song from Old Man Logan? I love that one.
Did NIN do a cover of it?
😉
Hmm, a restrictive reading of article 3 ignores that it only applies for the purposes in article 2TItle iii (Article 48-51) lays out in more detail what was actually proposed, in that it extended only to workers
Not that difficult, this is something that has been long since highlighted, but the issue was that the UK government chose not to do anything about it. Easier to blame Brussels than actually come clean and state that they couldn't be arsed to implement the laws that already existed.
An ex-colleague on my facebook feed describing how much of a struggle she had trying to get her husband to be allowed to stay in the UK. Lots of her friends also had similar issues.
This is what 'control' looks like.
Otherway round Graham. Though I actually prefer the Cash version.
Wikipedia"Hurt" is a song written by Trent Reznor first released on Nine Inch Nails' 1994 album The Downward Spiral. It received a Grammy Award nomination for Best Rock Song in 1996 but ultimately lost to Alanis Morissette's "You Oughta Know". In 2002, "Hurt" was covered as a swan song by country music star Johnny Cash to commercial and critical acclaim. It attracted praise from Reznor for its "sincerity and meaning" while ending up being one of Cash's final hits released before his death, the related music video being considered one of the greatest of all time by publications such as NME.
(I think he knows that, igm)
Then he got me.
American IV is a superb album.
As THM says a compromise will be reached. Germany and Merkel in particular have no desire to really enforce the freedom of movement anymore, as she wants to reduce it as well, to stop her support ebbing away.
However, one thing I disagree with THM on is that in the end we will have slightly more expensive trade and less investment, I don't see that as necessarily the case, as the UK can look outwards of the EU. We have many competitive advantages, but they won't come to us on a plate, we need get out there and get them.
We do and could do that anyway - most of out major trading partners were covered under EU trade arrangements which were unlikely to be less advantageous than EU ones - but fair cop, my comment of trade and investment was more of a hunch 😉 odd that Woppit didnt choose that one!!
Still hard to see why trade would be easier or less costly or why investment would be more attractive (ceteris paribus)
TM went to look at India and it didn't go to plan.
Still hard to see why trade would be easier or less costly or why investment would be more attractive
That ^^
I spent many years in mid 90s and mid 2000s trying to help foreign companies access India - its a bloody slow process that requires the patience of Gandhi!
As THM says a compromise will be reached. Germany and Merkel in particular have no desire to really enforce the freedom of movement anymore, as she wants to reduce it as well, to stop her support ebbing away.
Probably true - it's a shame such compromise couldn't have come before we reached the breaking point of the referendum. I think if the EU had offered even some relatively minor compromise on FoM (e.g. national limits on numbers) then it would have persuaded many people to stay.
However, one thing I disagree with THM on is that in the end we will have slightly more expensive trade and less investment, I don't see that as necessarily the case, as the UK can look outwards of the EU.
As THM says, the EU has trade agreements with most of the countries we want to trade with and is working on more.
My argument is that when we are negotiating trade agreements we are in a more powerful negotiating position if we can offer access to a EU-wide market with harmonised standards and ~510 million potential customers, rather than UK market with its own standards and just ~64 million potential customers.
Freed from the EU we can perhaps move faster, but we also offer less.
depends where we are in the queue 😉
Otherway round Graham. Though I actually prefer the Cash version.
Yer I know, I was just teasing ninfan. There are lots of kiddies finding the song because of the Old Man Logan film trailer, who have never heard of Cash, never mind the NIN original.
And you're right - the Cash version is beautiful.
What do we actually export these days?
Just tripped over this on Facebook, originally from the Guardian:
[i][The Italian Economic Development Minister] also said that he had recently met Boris Johnson, the foreign secretary, and that Johnson had told him Italy would grant Britain access to the single market “because you don’t want to lose prosecco exports”. Calenda said he told Johnson that this argument was bogus.
"[Johnson] basically said, ‘I don’t want free movement of people but I want the single market. I said, ‘no way.’ He said, ‘you’ll sell less prosecco.’ I said, ‘OK, you’ll sell less fish and chips, but I’ll sell less prosecco to one country and you’ll sell less to 27 countries.’ Putting things on this level is a bit insulting."[/i]
I think if the EU had offered even some relatively minor compromise on FoM (e.g. national limits on numbers) then it would have persuaded many people to stay.
I'm pretty confident that if Merkel had said 6 months ago that free movement needed to be looked at then that would have been enough to swing the vote. If she had said it last year when Dave pretended to make a deal, the campaign would have been totally different.
According to the Ashcroft poll, a third of leave voters did so because of immigration and border control.
EU possibly realising that they need to take a more sensitive approach to gung-ho integration, due to Brexit being real and other countries thinking about it.
Which is what should've happened - May should've taken the result back to the EU instead of promising to follow it slavishly. But maybe that was the plan all along?
Brexishambles really hurting May at PMQs today
(that and child abuse inquiry- her poor leadership at home office still haunting her)
Its painfully obvious that there is no plan or consensus in government about how to proceed and what exactly we are aiming for
when you are making Corbyn look good, you know you are in trouble!
Or, maybe people are realising that having principles isn't so bad after all?
May and co are in shambles - Johnson being told that what he is saying the deal will be is simply impossible
there is no way the EU will compromise on freedom of movement. Anyone who thinks there will be is back in red queen territory
I wonder if May the Merciless will eventually say "bollocks, I can't deliver this"?
there is no way the EU will compromise on freedom of movement. Anyone who thinks there will be is back in red queen territory
There is a compromise, well it isn't really it is just application of the rules....
From the gov direct website.
New rules for EEA Nationals and returning UK Nationals
From 1 November 2014, EEA nationals with ‘jobseeker’ residency status will be able to claim income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance for a maximum of six months. EEA nationals with ‘retained worker’ residency status will be able to claim income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance for a maximum of nine months.
Both EEA jobseekers and EEA retained workers will undergo a Genuine Prospect of Work assessment at three and six months respectively.
From 1 January 2014, before an EEA National or returning UK National can claim income based Jobseekers Allowance they must have been living in the UK, the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man or the Republic of Ireland for the three months immediately before making your claim for Jobseekers Allowance.
From 1 April 2014, EEA jobseekers will not be able to claim Housing Benefit. If you are already receiving income based Jobseeker’s Allowance and Housing Benefit this will not apply to you.
i.e. no job after so long no right to claim benefits and with it no way to remain. note the dates.....
Thats nothing to do with freedom of movement. The outies keep on trying to sellthe idea that we can have tarriff free access to the single market without freedom of movement. This has been shown to be nonsense and firmly ruled out buy Merkel and others
Its quite amusing to see how different papers have reported what Merkel said - I wonder how many Angela Merkels there are and why they all chose to speak on the same day 😉
tj, what i am trying to say that people coming over and abusing the system which seems to be a big issue amongst the brexiters, isn't an issue beyond the media manipulation and therir are rules in place to deal with it.
If you move around you are free to do so but you can't scrounge off the host nation.
mrmo - how big a deal is so-called "benefit scrounging" (a) in aggregate and (b) involving EU nationals?