[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Seriously you lot ... 😆

Can't you even wait few more months for the world most powerful man to take charge of office in Merica first before complaining?

At least see where Merican is heading don't you think so? 😆

30,000 extra civil servants, for how long the 10- 20 years it'll take to sort out the trade deals?

The sentiment of leave voters on the interment seems to be ' just get it don't

Like it's just a case of organising a big meeting at the EU, where there's may signs a document, everyone cheers and we are back to pounds and ounces the next day, all immigrants pack up and leave and all subtitled dramas on bbc4 will be immediately replaced with re-runs of dads army and open all hours .

Re: the church - what is it for if it can't preach about tolerance on Remembrance Sunday?

.

Especially at a time when the country is bitterly divided (over leaving the mechanism that's helped keep Europe war free for the last 40 years) after a campaign riddled with lies and xenophobia.

Like it's just a case of organising a big meeting at the EU, where there's may signs a document, everyone cheers and we are back to pounds and ounces the next day, all immigrants pack up and leave and all subtitled dramas on bbc4 will be immediately replaced with re-runs of dads army and open all hours .

"So do we have to subsidise Nissan 10% for the 75% of their cars made here that are exported to the eu ?"

Yeah, why not subsidise exporters using the tarrifs we collect on imports? Seems sensible to me.

Maybe prop up our steel industry using tarrifs too.

If the EU can set tarrifs at a rate they deem appropriate for their economy why can't the UK?

All of which assumes Brexit happens in any meaningful way which is doubtful.

It estimates an additional 30,000 extra civil servants could be required to meet the workload.

Well that'll help keep the unemployment figures down.

Not really, just fill the pockets of companies like Deloitte and co.
One source said it is one of their consultant who leaked the memo.

If the EU can set tarrifs at a rate they deem appropriate for their economy why can't the UK?

Because having 500 million people is gives them greater purchasing power than ours?

How much power do we lose leaving the EU is the question

Article in today's Times, EY report suggesting up to 83,000 jobs could be lost if euro-denominated clearing business moves out of the UK.

I'm not a city-man, but Jamba how likely is this?

Well that'll help keep the unemployment figures down.

well, with pretty much full employment, we're going to need some more people....

Article in today's Times, EY report suggesting up to 83,000 jobs could be lost if euro-denominated clearing business moves out of the UK.

There was an article in yesterday's Times suggesting that UK businesses had withdrawn or held off on investments totalling £65bn until the after effects of Brexit are known.

Puts that £350 million per week into perspective doesn't it?!

Yes but you can't put a price on taking back control.

br 83,000 clearing jobs - that's a ridiculously high figure. If euro clearing moved there could be some losses but imo nonwhere near 80,000. Also its worth noting London is the world's largest fx market trading dollars, yen etc etc - it does not have that status due to us being in the EU.

Must catch up on other posts ...

Government says today's "leaked memo" is a fake

Dave left them with shit on [s]both ends[/s] all of the stick 😆

Are you people not listening? IT'LL BE FINE! How many more times do you need to be told?!

Government says today's "leaked memo" is a fake

So - you're saying that they DO have a plan after all? Love to know how you know this 🙂

But large Finance Houses are already planning to move out of the UK... I've been touted twice for positions in Frankfurt and Sweden already.. I'm not the only one either. Copenhagen seems to be one of the areas most Banks are considering, I would hazzard a guess that some sweet deals are already underway.

br 83,000 clearing jobs - that's a ridiculously high figure.

Government says today's "leaked memo" is a fake

Government says today's "leaked memo" is a fake

yes of course it is, here have some more koolaid

we have [b]TOP MEN[/b] working on Brexit

[img] [/img]

Government is not saying memo is fake, but that they don't recognise it.
It is obviously real .not officially.

Re: the church - what is it for if it can't preach about tolerance on Remembrance Sunday?

Noone said it couldn't, just care should be taken when broaching politics.

Especially at a time when the country is bitterly divided (over leaving the mechanism that's helped keep Europe war free for the last 40 years) after a campaign riddled with lies and xenophobia.

A tad melodramatic.

Seems accurate to me.

Or are you saying that you didn't find the vote leave campaign xenophobic? And they didn't lie?

Government is not saying memo is fake, but that they don't recognise it.

Yes that is true. Given the amount of flak Facebook is quite rightly currently taking over faked news stories I am going with the word fake.

Bikebouy I do find it amusing that so many here are trying to defend city employment when a few years ago banker bashing was an STW sport. I appreciate your position has been consistent. Sweden wouldn't be for me, great for 2 months a year. Frankfurt I wouldn't work in at any time of the year for any amount of money (Munich yes). I am available for immediate transfer to Geneva (last weekend of Verbier bike park was 29/30 Oct in gorgeous sunshine and the skiing opened this past weekend)

Bikebouy I do find it amusing that so many here are trying to defend city employment when a few years ago banker bashing was an STW sport.

Wasn't me.

Yes that is true. Given the amount of flak Facebook is quite rightly currently taking over faked news stories I am going with the word fake.

also loving the irony

Or are you saying that you didn't find the vote leave campaign xenophobic? And they didn't lie?

Which one, there were at least three, Vote Leave, Grassroots Out and Leave.eu - it is important to recognise this. Elements of some of the campaigns were distasteful, but the same could be said about the Remain campaign. As far as numbers go and lies, their use of figures was disingenuous but it is not as if this wasn't exposed frequently during the campaign.

their use of figures was disingenuous but it is not as if this wasn't exposed frequently during the campaign.

did they write it on a bus?

I don't mind Banker Bashing, there were a lot of old school IB Guys who deserved all they got, and those that came through the ranks 10 years ago who seemed to want to follow the same mentality, again sod em'.
I too support people being able to claim PPI and Interest swap miss selling, no problem with that at all. Bankers by nature are a greedy bunch, like MP's I'd suggest. Same Shite, different colour.

And if I put my Uber right wing hat on, with all this Brexit shitehole we face, I will be too busy working flat chat earning bucketfulls of moolha lining my pockets dealing with the cacophony of Regulatory Changes. Granted I might not be able to go Paddleboard Surfing for a few years whilst I rake it in, but hey... I didn't choose Brexit, so whilst those who did continue to keep their Nasty Hat on I shall adopt it too and retire gleefully, thanks.

I feel sorry for the recent start ups', the entrepreneurs, the folks in Redcar who lost their jobs because Call Me Dave couldn't get off his arse and go up there and help them out, only for them to be kicked in the face again when our new Furhrer backhanded Nissan up the road, the miners who are about to loose their jobs, the innocent hard working families that will now end up poor and desolate, like in the 70's, once again because of a bunch of narrow minded insular self serving prats.

But my industry has been cleaning itself up, abiding by very stringent Regulation, regulations aligned to the EU and at home. We needed that, I work hard to bring that into my world. I will be here watching on the sidelines as my world here in the UK falls apart, jobs and business transfer into the EU or we shrink back even more and become Regional rather than Global in outlook, insular and lonely with no one to play with.

KerChing 😆

From the Independent. A consultant just made it up ... pitching for more work I'll bet

The report, dated 7 November, is understood to have been prepared for the Cabinet Office by a [b]consultant under his own initiative[/b], The Times reports.

and also from the times

[b]Brexit memo was seen and aided by senior civil servants.[/b] @Number10gov should stop shooting the messenger and start addressing the challenges

😳

Regarding all the fibs circulating about the government sponsored Brexit employment programme: As I understand it, the DWP and similar have not had to massively recruit very few highly competent, well trained and highly experienced Java developers and the like, as Brexit has not completely spanned the Government's IT programme, in any way.

So it's good, no, [i]great[/i] to know Brexit is not only costing us [i]no[/i] money but it's [i]actually[/i] costing us [i]less[/i] money. Than something else.

And that, as one poster (sort of) put it, means MILLIONS MORE in the FREEDOM BANK for all of us.

senior civil servants

If true, then that's a bunch more likely to know what's needed than the government. I suspect it is real and the reason the Brexmigos don't know about it is because they're clueless.

Baron - assuming you are being sarcastic there - but got a link?

Dave should speak out, really.

Article in today's Times, Dave has indeed been speaking out. Sadly it was as an after-dinner speaker to a bunch of Wall Street financiers where he was paid [b]£120,000 for a one-hour speech.[/b]

WTAF?!

Seems that memo did come from Deloitte, but the civilservice agrees anyway

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/15/brexit-civil-service-facing-its-largest-task-since-wwii-says-union ]Biggest challenge since ww2[/url]

good article that

very important to note that keeping silent just makes people think there is no plan

and public, investor and business confidence all suffers

'brexit means brexit' has never sounded so hollow

Noted @bikebouy

"Aided by Senior Civil servants" ie the Deloitte guy spoke to a few people and then wrote a report (pitch for new business) they probably knew nothing about when he spoke to them. Then he sent it to The Times ?

Supposedly Hammond will announce up to £15bn spending on infrastruture and technology to best prepare the UK for the world after Brexit. Of course that will be negative news, had he done the same after a Remain vote that would have been about time too

German growth fell to 0.2%

German growth fell to 0.2%

lets all celebrate !!

Baron - assuming you are being sarcastic there - but got a link?

Yes, I'm sorry: somewhat overly sarcastic.

No, no link. I'm comfortable enough with the validity of the claim.

You have to be careful with DWP stuff, it's not just their "customers" who can cop it.

(To be honest ^--- That's not even as vague as some of the stuff that was being thrown around, pre referendum! 😀 )

German and UK growth are both forecast at around 2% for 2016 by their respective statistics offices using a poll of polls, Jamba. For 2017 the [url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/561139/PU797_Forecast_for_the_UK_Economy_Oct_2016_covers.pdf ]UK governments average figure is 1%[/url]whilst the [url= https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/73769/umfrage/prognosen-zur-entwicklung-des-deutschen-bip/ ]German figure is around 1.4%[/url]. If you are saying Germany is bad then the UK is worse.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/15/mark-carney-bank-of-england-brexit-treasury-select-committee

more good news.

I like Carney.

Google just announced 1bn investment in london.

Good news.

more good news.

With the Guardian losing £60m last year the good news is we probably won't have to read their anti-Brexit tripe any more.

Edukator IMF projected UK to have the best growth of any G7 nation, will check the period when back from cinema (€6 for two tcikets to see Snowden).

My point about Germany was two fold, 1 growth slowing generally and 2 Brexit negatively impacting Germany so it makes economic sense for them to agree a sensible deal. Of course EU politics may win the day but Germany carries a big stick re the €

With the Guardian losing £60m last year the good news is we probably won't have to read their anti-Brexit tripe any more.

Brexit negatively impacting Germany

[url= http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2016/02/pdf/tblpartb.pdf ]IMF GDP projections in its October bulletin.[/url]

Among the lowest of the G7 nations for 2017. The UK has gone from best to worst in the months following the Brexit vote.

They are always asking for contributions towards funding independent journalism, now more than ever.

With the Guardian losing £60m last year the good news is we probably won't have to read their anti-Brexit tripe any more.

and what greater encouragement could there be than more hateful spiel from our favourite brexiteer.

http://www.the-guardian-uk.com/?gclid=CNyVxo2yq9ACFdaRGwodZqoOag&gclsrc=aw.ds&mobile=1

Subscribed

Good news with Google but they also want free movement of people.

A bit like Nissan and India.

More foreigners coming in the UK, not good for Brexiters.

the good news is we probably won't have to read their anti-Brexit tripe any more.

Those bastards lefty journos with their [b]facts[/b] ruining your fantasy Brexit reality eh?

How very dare they!

Google 3000 jobs in London good news, my mate Bob from Hartlepool will be getting his CV straight in, bound to need a fork lift to move all that cloud.... sorry had a shit day sarcasm back in box.

Those bastards lefty journos with their facts

India

India doesn't have a free movement deal with the EU - or anywhere else AFAIK.

No but they want their people to get visas, not a stricter immigration policy.
And the ceo of Google just said the same.

Or

Those [s]bastards lefty[/s] leftard journos with their [b]twisted[/b] facts [b]tried to[/b] ruin[s]ing[/s] [s]your fantasy[/s] Brexit reality. [s]eh?[/s]

No.

*Facepalm*

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37990316 ]Barack Obama warns of rise of crude nationalism[/url]

No but they want their people to get visas, not a stricter immigration policy.
And the ceo of Google just said the same.

Visas are stricter than the EU status quo though. Visas do not equal free movement. Good to hear these businesses promoting free movement and linking it to their commitments.

[b]Welcome to your Guardian subscription[/b]

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I opted to get the paper version delivered at the weekend so I could leave it my local when I'm done.

Edukator. IMF said we'd be the fastest growing G7 economy for 2016, 2017 has a lot of variables. I'll wager they are wrong like usual. Note they said if we voted Leave we'd plunge into a recssion immediately, global recession too remember

cchris India didn't ask for freedom of movement just more visas, May said that's ok but the 30,000 overstayers have to leave. Nissan and Google can get the people they need via a Visa system. Neither Japan nor US have freedom of movement.

I'll wager they are wrong like usual. Note they said if we voted Leave we'd plunge into a recssion immediately, global recession too remember

no , she did not say it was ok . she said the current system is fine and wont be increased unless you are a billionaire planning to buy penthouses in mayfair . The Indians were not happy either with the 30000 she wants to send back .

yes you re right , they can get visas , but how is it going to work if immigration is limited to 100000 ?not everyone is going to get a visa ? how is it going to be decided ?

The big businesses seem pretty confident on getting what they want .

re Google its not about movement of people. People always go abroad to work, study or holiday etc. Surely the point is who writes the rules on this for UK? Us or the EU. and yes, when we write the rules then hopefully we will pick and choose who comes in and who gets to stay. what other country doesn't do this? You try applying for a work permit or a passport in USA (even pre Trump!) or citizenship of Japan, China etc.

Rules don't mean no one gets to come in, just that we choose who and precisely what rights they get - to work - study - stay - vote - claim benefits etc.

Edukator - wanted to add we always said there would be a Brexit dip but it would be manageable, the fact we are able to weather that from a period of relative economic strength is all the better. The future is much brighter outside the EU than in it.

Big business always sounds confident, CEOs are in the sounding confident in public business.

Rules don't mean no one gets to come in, just that we choose who and precisely what rights they get - to work - study - stay - vote - claim benefits etc.

Not quite that simple.

Rules mean you can't just go and look for work. They make moving a major life decision. I am entitled to a US green card, but the process is long and bureaucratic, and I can't simply pop over and get a job. I have to actually go through an emmigration process. If I could have just picked up a contract over there I would have in the past - just for the hell of it.

I should be in Switzerland now working for the Swiss branch of my own employer - so an *inter company* assignment. And I can't, because they have to apply for a work permit that costs £1000 and takes weeks to get. So the project is suffering. That is NOT equivalent to EU style free movement. It is a barrier to people moving, and it is a barrier to business.

I should be in Switzerland now working for the Swiss branch of my own employer - so an *inter company* assignment. And I can't, because they have to apply for a work permit that costs £1000 and takes weeks to get. So the project is suffering.

Only if you are going for more than three months surely? Less than three months you just need to register.

In other words, they could get you over tomorrow, and then apply for the permit if they thought you would be needed for longer.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/15/britain-probably-leaving-eu-customs-union-says-boris-johnson

so that us ****ed then, how much cash is going to go to Nissan and the rest?

and throw into the mix that when the french off load the border back to the UK sealing trade won't be hard.

sounding confident in public business

Is that not your business?
I'm sure you're intelligent enough to be able to accept the damage being done to the UK in private.

just remember it is BJ . he talks sxxt all the time .

wanted to add we always said there would be a Brexit dip but it would be manageable, the fact we are able to weather that from a period of relative economic strength is all the better. The future is much brighter outside the EU than in it.

You're sounding less and less sure of yourself as this thread progresses.

In other words, they could get you over tomorrow, and then apply for the permit if they thought you would be needed for longer.

You'll forgive me for taking the advice of my company's Swiss immigration specialist team over you on this matter 🙂 I can only go for 8 days without anything. Otherwise I have to go through the notification procedure, which takes a while to do. The work permit requires specific dates, and because the project is flexible I don't have specific dates. So we have to fix them anyway and risk wasting our time and admin resources.

Easy it ain't.

Us or the EU. and yes, when we write the rules then hopefully we will pick and choose who comes in and who gets to stay.

It works both ways though. Many will not chose to work in the UK if it involves considerable expense and delay. This would put us at a disadvantage to the EU, where there is more skilled labour. A company like Google will want to recruit from the largest pool of labour possible.

You're sounding less and less sure of yourself as this thread progresses.

You are new to this thread because that's exactly what I said many times before I started on the EU Referendum as soonas the Tories won a majority.

Obama was in Greece today calling for debt relief but acknowledging that was politically difficult (translation Merkel and Hollande in particular cannot admit the €175bn their two countries have "lent" to Greece is in fact a gift from their taxpayers)

http://www.dw.com/en/in-greece-obama-calls-for-debt-relief/a-36404396

All we have learned from the sewage-storm directed at Bannon is that the Establishment plays dirty

If you take a look at the UK jobs market then what is needed is fruit/veg pickers (as nobody seems inclined to move out to linconshire when they become unemployed), cleaners, and other low paid work that many Brits want nothing to do with.

Given the low unemployment rate if you stop/reduce immigration then there will be worker shortage. That could be sorted by a general shrinking of the economyand when business decides that they can work better in other countries without such arbitary restrictions.

It's fairly obvious the bankers etc. getting laid off in the city won't be taking up that veg picking job so thats a tax loss for the government too.

Australian and Canadian immigrations are set up to grow the population. A lot of people taking advantage of EU freedom of movement aren't looking to stay, simply get a job for a short while. However many of them stay anyway. Those are the ones we'll lose.

Bollocks 🙂 We love Boris.

Referring to the free movement of people that the EU now insists is a key part of membership, he said: “It’s a total myth - nonsense. It is stupid to say that freedom of movement is a fundamental right.

“The Brownian motion of people across Europe is not something that was in the founding Treaty of Rome in 1957, it was not in the Nice Treaty, and it was not in the Maastricht Treaty. It’s something that has been acquired by a series of decisions by the courts.

“And everyone now has in his head that every human being has a fundamental, God-given right to go and move wherever he wants. But it is not.

“It was never a founding principle of the European Union. It’s a complete myth. Total myth.”

Johnson, who led the Vote Leave campaign, added:[b] “The idea that freedom of movement is a fundamental right of the EU is just bollocks[/b].”

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-bollocks-eu-freedom-of-movement-founding-principle-czech-newspaper_uk_582b4c12e4b07783e392abfa?utm_hp_ref=uk

Is that the same Boris?

In his Telegraph column, Boris set out his vision of the future of Britain, saying EU citizens living in Britain will have ‘their rights fully protected’ and claimed Britain will be able to access the single market.
He continued: ‘I cannot stress too much that Britain is part of Europe, and always will be.

‘There will still be intense and intensifying European co-operation and partnership in a huge number of fields: the arts, the sciences, the universities, and on improving the environment.
‘EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU.

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/27/heres-all-the-leave-campaigners-whove-backtracked-on-the-nhs-350m-promise-5969165/#ixzz4Q7q1tyzj

Honestly hard to take anything he "promises" or "claims" seriously these days. Almost becoming a parody of himself

I think Boris is probably right in that we will leave the Customs Union ("CU"), there is a clear logic to this position in that if we don't it is my understanding we won't be able to benefit from pursuing an independent international trade policy, which would leave as in the position of the downside of a looser relationship with the EU with only the limited upside of deregulating the home market. Therefore very little will be achieved. At least by leaving the CU we will have much greater upside potential but we will have to mitigate the downside as best we can, but it is in everyone's interest to make it work.

It was never a founding principle of the European Union.

So what? It's a principle now. One which I quite like. And benefits the economy. And whilst I have a great deal of sympathy with the poor and disadvantaged (kind of the whole point of being a lefty) I don't think it need disadvantage them either. It can be used to cut costs, which causes problems for poor people - but then so do lots of things and we aren't falling over each other to ban them are we?

It's always been a principle right from the start, though the precise details of the implementation have evolved over time.