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cchris change.org put a graphic out, had this been a general election it would have been Leave 408 Remain 242 - that's why MPs will not vote against A50
Edukator unserstood, thanks for contributing
Kelvin I am all for Economic co-operation, it should be without a Parliament, ECJ having no jurisdiction over anything except trade disputes, no freedom of movement (replaced with a visa system), no Schengen, euro needs to be completely overhauled or abandoned. Being an EU member ties our hands in being able to forge links goobally,mthat's a big negative.
Peyote I don't want to a citizen of a United States of Europe. I am British and proud of what that represents in terms of our history and our future. I am happy to live in most countries but I'd like to remain British thanks very much. The EU has proven incompetent at just about everything why would I switch being British for that disaster ?
"if the popular vote was what mattered then the candidates would campaign differently"
Very good point.
Except it isn't by very much
which in no way negates the point made and just agrees with it
Its hard to argue the winner,in a popularity contest, is the one with the least votes.
The EU has proven incompetent at just about everything why would I switch being British for that disaster ?
That british history, how many people has it killed? Maybe it is time to try something different.
Its hard to argue the winner,in a popularity contest, is the one with the least votes.
Except if you read more than six words from my post, it isn't a popularity contest. It is a state-by-state contest to gain electoral college votes. The campaigns are run with that objective.
Change the rules, it becomes a popularity contest.
Peyote I don't want to a citizen of a United States of Europe. I am British and proud of what that represents in terms of our history and our future. I am happy to live in most countries but I'd like to remain British thanks very much. The EU has proven incompetent at just about everything why would I switch being British for that disaster ?
Fair enough. I do though, I'm quite happy being British, English and European. I don't think being part of any of those negates the other and I'm interested in why anyone would?
If I may draw a tenuous parallel, I'm sure some Californians regard themselves as both Californian and American without falling into the "doublethink" that you appear to dislike. Why does it have to be one or the other?
As far as incompetence goes, I'm sure we can all think of similar disasters that the British have inflicted on themselves and others. Likewise pretty much any group of people who consider themselves a particular "tribe". Certainly I have been and continue to be embarrassed and proud of my heritage...
Being proud to be British is not incompatible with being European.
Before being from the World, Europe, France, occitanie, Aveyron, I'm a millavois ( from Millau) .
It doesn't mean I cannot be part of a wider group. If that group makes sense humanly, economically and more.
I m even proud of my town of adoption in the UK.
I'm quite happy being British, English and European.
+1
I don't want to a citizen of a United States of Europe. I am British and proud of what that represents in terms of our history and our future.
You can be both. The Scots and Welsh have been dealing with this for several hundred years. British is your personal identity, no-one can ever remove that and no-one wants to. You can however legally be European without diminishing your Britishness.
That attitude is nothing but misplaced sentiment.
If you are pro-UK then your position is completely hypocritical. You cannot wish the Scots and Welsh to be part of the UK whilst simultaneously objecting to the UK being an EU member. Those positions are incompatible.
If I may draw a tenuous parallel, I'm sure some Californians regard themselves as both Californian and American without falling into the "doublethink" that you appear to dislike. Why does it have to be one or the other?
and as some Californians are campaigning for succession, not really that distant a comparison.
"I'm quite happy being British, English and European"
None of which will change whatever happens.
er... apart from our rights to live work and travel wherever we want within Europe...
Someone in prison can't travel and work freely in Europe, they don't stop being European.
If you are pro-UK then your position is completely hypocritical. You cannot wish the Scots and Welsh to be part of the UK whilst simultaneously objecting to the UK being an EU member. Those positions are incompatible.
Absolutely true, but utterly irrelevant. As long as more than 50% of the population prefers irrational and uninformed emotion, any appeal to logic and facts is pointless.
"If you are pro-UK then your position is completely hypocritical. You cannot wish the Scots and Welsh to be part of the UK whilst simultaneously objecting to the UK being an EU member."
Why not? It's all completely arbitrary.
As long as more than 50% of the population
If it was you might have a point but it is only c25% who want out the rest is equally split between want in didn't vote and weren't allowed to vote.
People are ready to complain but far less likely to compliment, which suggests those most fired up to vote are those who wanted out, which suggests most people are happy with the state quo.
"most people are happy with the state quo."
Most people were, nobody GAF about the EU until the Referendum got close.
Now we're all ****ing experts on tarrifs. It's like the West Lothian question - better not to ask it.
which suggests most people are happy with the state quo.
It suggests most people don't care one way or another.
Or simply don't know how to decide.
It suggests most people don't care one way or another.
which is the same thing, the question is how they would feel after brexit.
which is the same thing, the question is how they would feel after brexit.
I guess when we ask them again we'll find out. Pencil in 2056 for the update.
[url= http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/11/closing-liberal-mind ]This [/url]is absolutely brutal and brilliantly argued.
The term 'liberal' there seems to encompass a massive range of human thinking, so it's too big of a target to be useful.. that article seems to vary a lot on what it's attacking.
I did find it strange how fok were pro one union and anti another- I include myself in that analysisIf you are pro-UK then your position is completely hypocritical. You cannot wish the Scots and Welsh to be part of the UK whilst simultaneously objecting to the UK being an EU member. Those positions are incompatible.
I guess the message is the English dont mind being in a union they dominate but dont want to be a partner in one they dont dominate.
The scottish might just dislike the Tories more than the europeans.
I guess the message is the English dont mind being in a union they dominate but dont want to be a partner in one they dont dominate.
That's your interpretation not mine. You'll notice in my post I did not mention being English. I'd give up the English tag, it's not a country in the same way neither is Scotland or Wales. We are citizens of the United Kingdom, a diverse and wonderful country.
@mefty, thanks that was an excellent read. I think it's the definition of Liberalism which is the issue, we can (and will be) a liberal country outside the EU.
I guess the message is the English dont mind being in a union they dominate but dont want to be a partner in one they dont dominate.
That's unfair. More English than Scottish would like Scotland to leave the union. 😀
I did find it strange how fok were pro one union and anti another- I include myself in that analysis
After writing that I had to have a bit of a think to make sure my position was still consitent 🙂
You'll notice in my post I did not mention being British. I'd give up the British tag, it's not a country in the same way neither is France or Germany. We are citizens of the United States of Europe, a diverse and wonderful country
They're not countries because they've been absorbed by a union. You really have said nothing to refute the allegation of hypocrisy. Why is one union bad and the other good?
Why is one union bad and the other good?
Because one works and the other doesn't?
Because one works and the other doesn't?
That's a bit of a difficult thing to demonstrate really. Because you don't know how much worse of we'd all be if we weren't in the EU. There are so many factors pulling on our economy, you'd be hard pressed to identify the EU specifically in them.
So in other words - bollocks.
cchris change.org put a graphic out, had this been a general election it would have been Leave 408 Remain 242 - that's why MPs will not vote against A50
Interesting that change.org can double guess the result of a FPTP election on a factor that has never been tested in Britain in such an election.
For example Milliband in Doncaster. 70% quit, 30% stay. But in FPTP you rarely need anything like 50% to win. So Milliband stands as remain and probably bags 30% straight off. Right wing and left wing quit candidates (and perhaps a closet facist or two) split the quit vote, couple of bregret voters and he's in in say 40% of the vote.
Provided the stay stalwarts don't put anyone else up in addition.
I guess in simple terms - don't expect a simplified yes/no vote to be repeated in a multi-candidate election.
That's your interpretation not mine. You'll notice in my post I did not mention being English. I'd give up the English tag, it's not a country in the same way neither is Scotland or Wales. We are citizens of the United Kingdom, a diverse and wonderful country.
Which identifies you as English.
Scot, Briton and European and proud of it. Living in Yorkshire which I love.
To be fair, I have some sympathy with the England not a country thing - it does lack an identity. Some of the counties, certainly Yorkshire, have stronger identies than England - in my opinion which others will disagree with.
Does the EU work?
Maybe it's just coincidence that we were the slowest growing country in the G7 before we joined the EU. And the fastest after. I'd hazard a guess that it works for us.
More annoying facts from the[url= https://www.ft.com/content/0260242c-370b-11e6-9a05-82a9b15a8ee7 ] FT [/url]here.
Junkyard - lazarusI did find it strange how fok were pro one union and anti another- I include myself in that analysis
It's not really that complex is it? It's not about being pro or anti unions, it's about specifics. You can be in favour of closer political union but unhappy with the EU, frinstance.
I guess the message is the English dont mind being in a union they dominate but dont want to be a partner in one they dont dominate.
Plus 1.
Re the draft Wales Bill - what happened to taking back control?
Maybe it's just coincidence
Maybe it is - because our economy has under gone an awful lot of change that has very little to do with the EU.
The simple fact is 55% of Scots, who voted, voted to retain the union, so it seems to work for them. Yet 52% of UK citizens, who voted, didn't follw their example with the EU as they presumably think it doesn't work for them.
The EU is totally dysfunctional. Broken. Kaput.
The EU wants to create a new country, a fusion of existing nations. No thanks. We have a successful country which has forged an identity of hundreds of years.
Had in 1975 the British people been presented with anything like today's EU they would imo have voted No. You only have to read the '75 leaflet to see it made clear the EEC was to be nothing like the EU, no definitely not.
In trade deal news much talk of UK joining a new North Atlantic Free Trade agreement with Trump revising the terms of NAFTA, 503m people accross US, Mexico, Canada and UK.
Now that's hilarious
Scotland and rUK have similar economic positions, values and a largely shared culture. You quite simply cannot say that about the UK and 27 other countries.
Economics, rUK would have to pay for pretty much all the same stuff eg civil service inc diplomats, military etc but with a lower tax and revenue base if Scotland became independent. Leaving the EU we save the budget contribution and almost certainly need less bureaucracy.
Voting No and Leave is entirely consistent imho.
Now that's hilarious
Happy Friday 🙂 I assume you mean the NAFTA part rather than all of it !
Scotland and rUK have similar economic positions, values and a largely shared culture.
NOW they do yes 🙂
The EU is totally dysfunctional. Broken. Kaput.
But we still trade for free with EU countries, don't we? Which was one of its key features, and that still works, doesn't it? If no-one bothered then you'd be right, but we do. So it IS working.
The EU is totally dysfunctional. Broken. Kaput.
The problem you have with your statement is that before you can say it is broken, you have define what it is for. If you can not define what it is for, you can not say whether it is broken.
The idea of creating a new country (which I'm not entirely against - countries are after all transitory) is merely a tool not an end.
I think the EU, amongst other institutions, is for creating stability in an area which has been responsible for ripping the world apart twice in the last hundred years (and caused a lot of trouble on a regular basis for a lot longer).
On that basis, while it has had its problems, it has been spectacularly successful so far.
Long may it continue, and we continue to be part of it.
In other news, some interesting legal opinions and tactics being bandied about with regard to Brexit and A50. Looks like it could actually be in both sides interests to lose in the appeal court.
The EU is totally dysfunctional. Broken. Kaput.
In your opinion.
I quite like it.
No doubt the EU suffers from having various people's project aims applied to it, but it's more than just a club. It's fundamental now to how we work now we've been in it for so long.
In other news, some interesting legal opinions and tactics being bandied about with regard to Brexit and A50. Looks like it could actually be in both sides interests to lose in the appeal court.
Interesting - links?
I'm a Yorkshireman first, British second and European thirdly.
And proud to be all three.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/11/brexit-could-be-reversed-government-lawyers-may-argue?CMP=oth_b-aplnews_d-2#img-1
Still not convinced, I'd have thought that sovereignty is about making decisions, not about being able to undo (but only within 2 years) decisions the government makes.
I think I'd prefer it that way though, at least it would be an objective decision where the outcomes are known. It would probably make sense to have another referendum where the public can vote based on facts rather than the delusions of political ambition...
rather than the delusions of political ambition
Nah it'll be the same characters having spent the previous 2 years meticulously plotting the order in which they will tread on their colleagues to get to the top job.
That's politicians for you! There's that saying that wanting to be a politician should automatically disqualify you from being one. I can see the logic in that!
I am afraid all the facts have been presented with the people deciding the right facts is to exit.Neb - Member
It would probably make sense to have another referendum where the public can vote based on facts rather than the delusions of political ambition...
If you wish for another referendum then you should wait for another 50 years before deciding if there is a need for another one.
Referendum is not a annual thing you know coz it's once in a life time.
[b]Yes, [u]Once in a life time.[/u][/b]
Yes, Once in a life time.
In your opinion.
[i]I am afraid all the facts have been presented with the people deciding the right facts is to exit. [/i]
Er, what post Referendum reporting have you been reading/watching - the kids news? Both sides agree that the facts were not presented correctly, accurately and in full.
Neb - Member
> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/11/brexit-could-be-reversed-government-lawyers-may-argue?CMP=oth_b-aplnews_d-2#img-1
br />
Still not convinced, I'd have thought that sovereignty is about making decisions, not about being able to undo (but only within 2 years) decisions the government makes.
I am unsure of this, whether or not ir could be reversed is for th EU court to decide not the Supreme Court surely?
Also with that stance there is no guarentee that parliament would have a chance to vote on reversal?
I am afraid all the facts have been presented with the people deciding the right facts is to exit.
Okay, give me a list of the facts that were presented that people used to decide their vote
You won't be able to because no facts were presented, the people decided based on prejudice and lies.
- The well known cost lie (£350MM a week and how it could go to NHS)
- Immigration lies (the net £ effect on UK)
The only thing that came close to facts was in the 'project fear' data.
And the fact that the exit vote was based on an unspecified exit is even worse. If I was in government I would get the ext box ticked with as little change to what we already have as possible. So I have done what 51% of people voted for but maybe not how they perceived it would be done - tough, be careful what you vote for...
I'd have thought the obvious route for the PM is pretty much what she is doing now - to look and see what is available (India, us, Australia, etc), work out what the future relationship with the EU is likely to be, work out timescales, work out impact on the economy and put it back out to a referendum. I know that that is what I'd do.
mille 80 vs 440 🙂
Lib Dems are just trying to be different to generate some media exposure for themselves
Neb I appreciate you'd want to put it to another Referendum as you voted Remain
It's not just that i voted remain, I'd be more than happy if people voted to leave in a 2nd referendum (or even the first referendum) as long as facts were the basis of their decision.
It boils my piss the fact that so many people voted for something on the basis of lies, driven by the naked ambition of a handful of politicians.
I don't believe a 2nd referendum is any less valid, a referendum is just a snapshot in time of public opinion.
Would you honestly not prefer a mandate to leave the EU based on an actual proper vote by people that actually have something to base their decision on? For me, it comes down to integrity, the public will end up feeling cheated (because they were!) Surely it would be better for the government to ask a follow up question along the lines, "this is whats going to happen, are you sure you want to do this?"
It's not just that i voted remain, I'd be more than happy if people voted to leave in a 2nd referendum (or even the first referendum) as long as facts were the basis of their decision.
So if the vote had been stay you'd be demanding another referendum because of project fear?
Tbh the lack of plan was the worst. A leave vote was not a vote for anything specific. A remain vote was.
We all know there was no plan because the government didn't want an exit and tried to make an exit as hard as possible.
Tbh the lack of plan was the worst. A leave vote was not a vote for anything specific.
I think you'll find that it was... in fact, the electoral commission went so far as modifying the originally proposed question to make sure that it was: http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/elections-and-referendums/upcoming-elections-and-referendums/eu-referendum/eu-referendum-question-assessment
That is not specific at all. Asking do you want to leave the EU but not in which way or how.
There are many ways to leave with various options. The option to stay was to just stay as it already is which is very clear.
Bit late now. Maybe you should have whined more before the event.
So if the vote had been stay you'd be demanding another referendum because of project fear?
The project fear thing was at least based on studies from experts that 'might' turn out to be pessimistic once we've left the EU. It's a bit early for them to be called outright lies just yet. The leave campaign was mainly just outright lies.
The denigration of experts was another thing that I can't get my head around. Farage telling an actual world renowned expert that he doesn't know what he's talking about and it'd be better to trust him (Farage) instead.
Mind blowing! 😯
Edit - it might have Give instead, one of those untrustworthy cretins at any rate
Asking do you want to leave the EU but not in which way or how.
Gave the very clear result that Yes, we wanted to leave the EU. Your argument is as fatuous as saying that a vote to remain was ambiguous because some people wanted reform, some people wanted greater integration, some people wanted to join the Euro, some people wanted to remain but cut immigration etc.
It was a simple binary choice, the country weighed the options and voted out.
It was a simple binary choice, the country weighed the options and voted out.
and out means what?
and as a frame of reference, if we had voted to remain, would we have adopted the euro, scrapped all opt outs, switched the side of the road we drove on, full metric-ician in march next year?
It was a simple binary choice, the country weighed the options and voted out.
But they weren't given the options, that's the point! They were lied to and given populistic rhetoric to appeal to their basest ideals. That's exactly why I have an issue with brexit.
But the four people I know who voted to leave all aspired to completely different versions of being outside the EU and had different motivations (from being anarchists to thinking it would rebalance the economy in favour of manufacturing).
It was a simple binary choice, the country weighed the options and voted out.
Where's the £350m per week for the NHS?
How's the border comtrol going?
The main point is that the country didn't weigh up the options, the thick muppets voted out based on the flimsiest of bullshitty promises. 😆
Fair play, it takes some balls to say that.
Ninfantasy.
It was a simple binary choice, the country weighed the options and voted out where out meant many many different things to many different people and their is no unamity amongst them as to what out means
FinishedTFY
We voted out we all knwo that we also all know we have no idea what sort of out we voted for nor what sort of out our elected leaders want never mind what we will get.
It meant very many different things to different people and the only thing they had in common was to vote out
In much the same way had in won there were those happy with it as it was those who wanted to reform it and those who wanted further integration.
Folk voted the same way for many different reasons
If you honestly don't understand where we're coming from, remind me never to buy anything 2nd hand from you.
It'll not be as described, not do what I want it to and I'll wish I'd bought something else. But hey, you'll have got your money so no harm done? Right?
it was binary choice you either wanted to buy it or you did not 😉
Ninfan - just for a laugh, given the wording of the question, presumably if we leave the EU but remain in the single market, paying subsidies, and with the four freedoms intact, then you would be happy because that would be (under the wording of the question) what people voted for?
If not then I think your detractors may have a point in suggesting that nobody actually knows exactly what was voted for.
Good one IGM.
And Ninfan, it is also a binary question, a yes or a no will do.
If that was the best outcome we could get from negotiations (and I don't think it would be) then fine.
I'm sure that the results at the ballot box at the next election would reflect it.
I suspect the results of the next election will reflect JCs appeal to the electorate more than anything else. Theresa is a very lucky PM.
JC?
Jesus Christ, Jeremy Clarkson, Jeremy Corbyn.
I lurk on.
But the four people I know who voted to leave all aspired to completely different versions of being outside the EU and had different motivations (from being anarchists to thinking it would rebalance the economy in favour of manufacturing).
Yet, they all agreed on and voted for one thing.
You know how some people support unilateral nuclear disarmament, and others oppose it, but they still manage to both vote for Labour...
And like some people voted from scottish independence despite it being uncertain whether they would Ethan EU membership, and others voted against Scottish independence, despite the clear warning from Salmond that there might be an EU referendum that took them out of the EU...
Where's the £350m per week for the NHS?
How's the border comtrol going?
I think it's due to kick in after the complete collapse of western political civilisation like Remain promised me
The main point is that the country didn't weigh up the options, the thick muppets voted out based on the flimsiest of bullshitty promises.
What about the thick muppets who voted to remain because they were afraid that the stock market would collapse (it didn't) that David Cameron wouldn't resign (he did) article 50 would be invoked immediately (it wasn't) border controls would move to Dover (they havent) or that the UK would be forced to the back of the queue for a trade deal with the USA (lI think that claim has been clearly Trumped)
You forgot Osborne's punishment budget.
Indeed, oh, and the troubles in NI starting again.