It’s not a surprise that many in labour want brexit out of the way so they can start to rebuild
How are they going to rebuild anything when they won't see power again for a decade at least? And when they are under a Tory government of a bankrupt country?
It’s not a surprise that many in labour want brexit out of the way so they can start to rebuild.
“Out of the way” !!!!!!!
No, you voted for a party who can say anything it likes because it won’t get into power.
I thought he voted Lib-Dem, not Labour....
I can’t believe that Corbyn wouldn’t expell any MP that helped gift that to Johnson and the hard right
After all, he'd be voting with them if he hadn't accidentally become leader
Anyway, here's the FT analysis of the vote tomorrow. Too close to call...
It’s not a surprise that many in labour want brexit out of the way so they can start to rebuild.
Rebuild what?
“Out of the way” !!!!!!!
Out of the way, resolved, neutralised, done, whatever. The simple fact is that brexit has been the most difficult, divisive, and intractable problem for the labour party in it's history. It's been nothing less than an existential threat. It's very easy for remainers to say they should just support remain but it's not and never has been that simple, and continuing to deny that is plain fantasy.
Out of the way, resolved, neutralised, done, whatever.
And the only way that can happen is to revoke Article 50. Agreeing a WA guarantees at least 10 more years of uncertainty for business, and will kickstart a powerful movement to rejoin the EU.
It’s very easy for remainers to say they should just support remain but it’s not and never has been that simple, and continuing to deny that is plain fantasy.
allowing a pass for the hardest of rightwing brexits in complete contradiction to their own manifesto and party's commitments on brexit is hardly supporting remain
its giving the ERG and the hard right everything they ever wanted on a plate
Rebuild what?
Comrade, the rebellion will start. With the Red Left leading the charge.
It will be just like joyful times of Stalin.
At least in Jezza's fantasy world it will be, despite the annoying reality that (a) the British public voted for this pile of crap and (b) have been convinced it is a delicious steak and (c) it's springtime for HitlerJoris and GoebbelsCummings if this turd of a deal gets passed.
How are they going to rebuild anything when they won’t see power again for a decade at least? And when they are under a Tory government of a bankrupt country?
I think, and this is just IMO, that Corbyn recognises he is currently unelectable. And that the only way to shift the UK electorate to a position where someone like him would be electable is by the electorate being sold off to the right like cannon fodder. At which point the left would be able to rally back and hopefully win.
A price worth paying, short term pain (matter of perspective)for long term gain.
It will not be out of the way though. Now will come the real turbulence. Stuck in no man's land trying to negotiate deals from a desperate position. Now starts the years of being bent over and ****ed. This has just been foreplay so far.
I think, and this is just IMO, that Corbyn recognises he is currently unelectable.
And he's happy to watch the new, purified, Tory party torch the country, just to get elected. As much, if not more, dangerous than Boris & Cummings.
Also, hi from the ERG, you forgot us? No Deal is still on the table, kthxbye.
"Theresa May's backstop could have had us locked into that arrangement indefinitely. Boris Johnson has torn up that backstop which means that if the trade talks are not successful then we could [still] leave on no-deal terms."
So assuming at this point the deal is illegal... and there is a 2nd referendum...
How are remain going to get the support of those disabled hating homophobic mysogenists voting for Brexit because of this? (From FB today)
That didn't work ....
Even Simon Jenkins (who is a mite too old school tie for my liking) is parroting this “get Brexit out of the way” shit. The only way to do that is to call it off. This is never going to go away.
Fourteen months transition period? In the eyes of that arch bastard Cummings that represents around 60 opportunities to bleed out bits of bad news at an average of one a week. He will expect, rightly, that not enough of the electorate will join all the dots. Basically an empty fanfare this weekend, Boris enthroned and then continue to treat the public with the contempt they deserve. It has worked for them so far, why stop now? Any more unpalatable bits of truth will be declared ‘unpatriotic’ or ‘Project Fear’ or ‘wait and see, we can cope’.
And it is all so utterly, utterly pointless and unnecessary. At least the yanks weren’t stupid enough to make their petty little racist/xenophobic shit in nappy tantrum binding. They get to right their stupidity after five years, although with the seeds the GOC is sowing in the Middle East, the effects may well be more long lasting.
**** populism, **** stupidity.
is hardly supporting remain
Read my comment again, I never said it was. Remainers want labour to fully support remain, but they have never accepted the fact that they can't because the labour party is split across the divide. Yes it's mostly for remain, but there is a significant enough leave element to mean that if they were jettisoned then labour would never win an election. It's always been a no-win scenario for labour, no matter how people pretend it isn't.
The only way to do that is to call it off.
It's not going to happen. Get used to it. There was an opportunity to mitigate the worst elements of brexit, but that was rejected by remainers in favour of going all out for stopping it. This is what happens when you go for broke and lose. Although to be fair it's not lost yet, but looking likely.
This is what happens when you go for broke and lose. Although to be fair it’s not lost yet, but looking likely.
Oh yes it's obviously the fault of remainers instead of Labour letting their MPs got Johnson's hard right deal through...🙄
There’s enough of this sort of stuff circulating that surely even the most loyal Scots Unionists are beginning to realise our real position in this “family” of nations.
Like the brick, I think it rather sad that there are those who look to exacerbate division in order to further their own ends. Both the leave movements continue to have a great deal in common. 🙁
Operation “save the Conservative Brexit Party” is going surprisingly well… but it needs the support of Labour MPs to cross the line… will they be obliging? I might stay in and watch it unfold tomorrow.
BTW folks, just watch out for news from the Scottish Courts again today.
Possibly spokes in wheel job...
If the Labour Party can't oppose this with any conviction, which it looks certain it won't, then you have to ask yourself whether there's any point there actually being a Labour party any more?
Yep, for me this is the point that I lose any doubt I had that Corbyn isn't just full of shite.
I am pretty sure it will pass. For the reason outlined in the tweet above - it doesnt remove no-deal.
Plus labour rebels voting for it despite the fact that if it goes through BoJo will have a huge majority in the next election.
THe thing that gets my goat is that it seems peoples vote mps are sain this isnt the time to table a second ref ammendment. There porbably won't be another time you stupid fools. Why on earth wouldnt they table one????
If the Labour Party can’t oppose this with any conviction
They are. JMcD was on the radio this morning talking about how labour MPs should oppose it and he was going to talk to those like Campbell to persuade them. Corbyn has said he will oppose it and is whipping his MPs to do the same.
Yep, for me this is the point that I lose any doubt I had that Corbyn isn’t just full of shite.
I see we're back to the easy 'it's all that nasty Corbyn's fault' excuse again? It's quite pathetic to be honest. Brexit is happening because people seem to want it. Not because Corbyn is 'enabling the far right', or because he's not on the telly enough, or because he's not shouting loud enough, or because he's not running through the streets wearing EU underpants. It's happening because people voted for it, and if you believe the polls, are supporting the party promising to do it. It may be comforting to look for easy scapegoats, but it's not going to change things one iota.
Corbyn has said he will oppose it and is whipping his MPs to do the same.
but will not do anything to MPs who help Johnson get his hard Brexit & a landslide GE after it
I see we’re back to the easy ‘it’s all that nasty Corbyn’s fault’ excuse again?
I'm not coming back to it. I was never there. I have never been sure of him but have been willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I think this is the end of the road. No amendment for a 2nd referendum? Mixed messages about whether MPs should vote against it?
He wants this to go through. He doesn't want a 2nd referendum. I hoped it wasn't the case but he is most definitely not on my side.
No amendment for a 2nd referendum? Mixed messages about whether MPs should vote against it?
1. The peoples vote campaign are saying there shouldn't be a 2nd vote amendment. Also if there was an amendment then this would involve MPs supporting the deal to achieve a 2nd vote. The whole reason an amendment is being held back is so that MPs can demonstrate their clear opposition to the deal.
2. He's said clearly that he opposes it, labour MPs should oppose it, and he'll whip against it.
The rest is in your head I'm afraid.
He wants this to go through. He doesn’t want a 2nd referendum. I hoped it wasn’t the case but he is most definitely not on my side.
The plain facts, and the things he has said repeatedly do not support your view. Believe what you want to believe though, there's very little Corbyn or anyone else can do if you refuse to accept the facts at face value.
So when will a referendum amendment be tabled? Isn’t this the last chance?
The peoples vote campaign are saying there shouldn’t be a 2nd vote amendment.
Yes, after Corbyn came out against it. If he backed it MPs would be voting on it on Saturday. He doesn't want it to be put to the people.
The whole reason an amendment is being held back is so that MPs can demonstrate their clear opposition to the deal.
Yes and the basis of his opposition is that there is a red Unicorn just over the hill. He knows there isn't but that doesn't matter.
2. He’s said clearly that he opposes it, labour MPs should oppose it, and he’ll whip against it.
ANd he's so committed to it that MPs who defy the whip are facing the possibility of... what exactly?
The rest is in your head I’m afraid.
There comes a point when you look at someone's record and say, 'Do you know what, I'm fairly certain this is what he's aiming for.'
So, if this deal goes through on Saturday, will it be due to Corbyn's intentions or his incompetence?
So when will a referendum amendment be tabled? Isn’t this the last chance?
A 2nd ref amendment will water down opposition to the deal making it more likely to pass. They've clearly come to the conclusion that they don't have the numbers to get a 2nd vote through, so it's not worth the risk of letting the deal go through. The whole point of holding it back is to INCREASE opposition to the deal.
... Johnson get his hard Brexit & a landslide GE after it
Oh no, no ...
No landslide for PM JoBo in the next GE.
There will be No majority for any party.
allowing a pass for the hardest of rightwing brexits in complete contradiction to their own manifesto and party’s commitments on brexit is hardly supporting remain
+1
Everyone’s against you DazH.
If any labour MPs vote for this and it gets through, it’s a sell out bigger than any sell out the Lib Dem’s have ever done. I will never vote labour again.
They’ve clearly come to the conclusion that they don’t have the numbers to get a 2nd vote through, so it’s not worth the risk of letting the deal go through.
They thought they would have the numbers until Corbyn came out against it. Cheers for that.
will it be due to Corbyn’s intentions or his incompetence?
it'll be down to the simple fact that there is a majority of MPs in favour of it. That's it. You do realise don't you that Corbyn doesn't have dictatorial control over his, or anyone else's MPs? You're going to blame him for not exercising a power which he doesn't possess.
it’ll be down to the simple fact that there is a majority of MPs in favour of it. That’s it. You do realise don’t you that Corbyn doesn’t have dictatorial control over his, or anyone else’s MPs? You’re going to blame him for not exercising a power which he doesn’t posess
He whipped for article 50. Why can’t he whip against a Tory Brexit?
Quit defending Corbyn, it’s clear to everyone that in his head he thinks he’s a red Frank Underwood.
No I will blame him for:
Three line whipping to trigger A50
Three line whipping against remaining in the single market and customs union
And the final nail in the coffin, doing his best to kill a 2nd referendum that could put this to bed once and for all.
Everyone’s against you DazH.
?
I agree with you FFS. Ronnie Campbell et al are idiots. It doesn't change the fact however that they will vote the way they have always said they will vote irrespective of what Corbyn, McDonnell or anyone else tells them to do. Threatening to remove the whip will have no effect.
I think this will sadly pass, last minute DUP uturn will mean v small majority pass the deal.
As a Tory this is just so gratifying to read 👍
dazh
Read my comment again, I never said it was. Remainers want labour to fully support remain, but they have never accepted the fact that they can’t because the labour party is split across the divide.
I think your idea of "the divide" is idealistic.
The divide of traditional labour supporters isn't so much BECAUSE of BREXIT but WHY we have BREXIT.
Let's face it Cameron had an internal Tory issue... and he foolishly put it to a referendum and he was relying on people in flat caps with matchstick cats and dogs and some miners to firmly squash the whole idea.
You can accuse Cameron of MANY things but being in touch with working class people is not one of them. He knew some Tory voters would vote leave due to "Sovereignty" ... but most would vote with self interest and remain.
What he totally failed to understand was how many normal working class people are simply hacked off with political correctness ... and that over more than a decade this has been cultured to be blamed on the EU. At the same time some of the traditional supporters were also left behind or certainly felt they were by Nu-Labour
Yet others voted for Leave because Cameron/Tory's were on the face it it remain...
binners
If the Labour Party can’t oppose this with any conviction, which it looks certain it won’t, then you have to ask yourself whether there’s any point there actually being a Labour party any more?
It's Corbyn's wet dream.... poverty and increased inequality across the UK....
His brand of socialism has always seemed more about relative inequality than standards of living for the poorest. Personally: I'm not really against the idea itself ... but I have as much faith in it being delivered as I have in Boris's bridge to NI or fusion in the next 5 years. Unfortunately I see the implementation simply making everyone poorer.
To be fair I also think Corbyn is a true socialist... he has lofty goals that would he would see global equality between Western Europe (and Isreal) and the current poorest parts of Asia and Africa... (and Palestine) ... and again perhaps but its another wet pipe dream...
Regardless ... if Brexit goes ahead I think Corbyn will get his wish of making everyone poorer and starving enough.
Summary: Cameron put party over country....but Corbyn is putting ideals over country.
All the Labour MPs who will vote for Johnson’s shitty deal tomorrow are Corbyn’s natural allies, his career-long, Bennite, anti-EU fellow travellers.
If he hadn’t inadvertently found himself as the accidental leader you can bet Jeremy the Brexiteer would be right there with them, voting it through.
Hence them all getting tipped the nod that it’s fine to do so.
Getting to do whatever the hell you like if you’re a friend of Grandads isn’t just restricted to being anti Semitic
I think Labour will do better in a general election if the deal goes through, it wont be a pure Brexit election so they will suffer less from their weakness.