Quite a (visually) good poll tracker here: https://britainelects.com/polling/westminster/
Many many moons ago Cougar suggested that politicians should look at why people voted Brexit, and work on policies that spoke to those needs and wants… rather than pretending that Brexit would solve those issues.
Thank you for saying this, kelvin. It's somewhat reassuring to hear that I've not been shouting into an absolute vacuum for three years.
No getting much publicity tho are they?
Have they said, “Brexit is not the answer, so, with your consent, let’s bin it and do all this instead”, that was the proposition, not, “forget about Brexit, it’ll probably happen, we’d prefer a different version, but, let’s talk about other things instead“, as that just looks like ducking the issue, and doesn’t gain the trust of anyone.
Unsuprisingly thats what labour having been dong with a string of policy announcements many with that sort of aim. No getting much publicity tho are they?
I don't recall them ever packaging it as this though? Like, explicitly saying "hey, we hear you, and we'll address your concerns." That might win a few votes.
I know a fair amount of Leavers, more than Remainers now I think of it.
Just my own personal experience here and the unkind might say it's a reflection on me...but all of them to varying degrees want Brexit over immigration. Some fairly mild mannered about it, others outright on the nose racist.
Thing is,I didn't know this about some of them until I saw some horrendous posts on FB or made the mistake of bringing up Brexit.
I've honestly found it a bit hard to deal with as I thought I knew them pretty well. Then I see their profile pic turns to a burning EU flag and other crap I just can't get my head around.
Brexit is utterly toxic on every level of society. From the individual right up to this forced collective we are being moulded into.
I genuinely see it as an evil entity. There is no good side. None at all.
There is a malignancy at the heart of our country and it's heart breaking to witness.
Thing is,I didn’t know this about some of them
...
There is no good side. None at all.
A bittersweet positive perhaps, but you now know who the racists are. They were still racist pre-2016 but hiding, brexit hasn't made them racist it's just given them a voice.
kelvin - so if labour had taken that sort of position immediatly after the referendum - second ref, lets do what we can to control immigration, let put money into the northern economy sort of position how do you think that would have played out in the press and how do you think it would have played out in those northern towns?
I think they would have been smashed on the "ignoring the will of the people" line
Shifting to that position over a period of time as the absurdity of brexit became clearer would have been difficult and still wuld have caused difficulties
Who knows - it might have worked and its not far from where they are now
I genuinely see it as an evil entity. There is no good side. None at all.
Yep it’s Pandora’s box incarnate.
Just my own personal experience here and the unkind might say it’s a reflection on me…but all of them to varying degrees want Brexit over immigration. Some fairly mild mannered about it, others outright on the nose racist.
Not a million miles away from to my experiences, although I was well aware of their thoughts on immigration long before the referendum and it’s definitely not 100% and the mild ones are really only concerned about being pushed out of unskilled jobs.
This is going back to the early 2000s really. Mostly within the farming or warehousing sectors. Both of which saw dramatic changes in the make up if staff in that time.
Some of language used I’d not even want to hint at.
One thing that did stand out from that time (I now live somewhere staunchly remain and work in a very different sector) is that some of those that migrated in for economic reasons pretty much wanted to pull the drawbridge up behind them. I would not be at all surprised if they voted leave.
Some of the non economic reasons given prices pretty harrowing, particularly from Somalians.
I do miss the diversity of people that place offered. And it certainly shifted how I identify away from English to something far broader and less defined. I know some people from that time that went the other way and felt the need to express their English identity more. Or perhaps they’ve since been given platforms on which to express their feelings on national identity.
Well this should wipe the smile off Brexiteers faces:
https://apple.news/AfGDSRdmBREGnEi8eGiLL1Q
“A no-deal Brexit poses a threat to toilet paper supplies as manufacturers reveal they are preparing for possible blockages at the border.”
This thread could end up being merged with the Picolax one.
Racism is still a huge issue. A small % of people are openly racist about stuff but the slightly racist (know they shouldn't say stuff out loud) makes up a massive % of the population.
This comes out on social media (especially the anonymous users) and when you give these people a free vote such as the referendum you get a result largely based on racism.
The start of the propaganda was to play on those racism issues to get the result and once the result was obtained the propaganda continued to play on the divide between remainers and leavers
Classic fascist propaganda tactics. Find a split - race, religion or in this case the EU and they use it to get what you want. While I can understand how race and religion are easy to use being able to use the leave/remain split amazes me as people didn't care that much about it before 2016 so really does show the power of propaganda.
A bittersweet positive perhaps, but you now know who the racists are.
It's certainly the case that the last 3 years has exposed precisely this. I know a few people who are (on the face of it) decent enough people, who have now taken to reposting on social media the kind of noxious shite that Leave.EU was posting yesterday and links to all manner of nasty fascist stuff like Britain First. The mask has most definitely slipped with a lot of people. In line with a toxic national atmosphere that seems to have legitimised an awful lot of small-minded intolerance.
I've mentioned in this thread before the couple of older blokes who drink in my local who are Lexiteers, who I've been having a pint with and chatting to for years. They're decent blokes, old school labour, Socialist in their beliefs, but they are rabidly anti-EU, probably more extremely so than anyone else I know.
A chat with them will quickly dissuade you from any idea that racism, nationalism and xenophobia are purely the preserve of the rightward end of politics. Those on the (old school Bennite) left will happily express exactly the same sentiments as you'd hear from the mouth of Nigel Farage when it comes to Brexit and sees no contradiction at all with referring to the same sources.
Proof that if you go far enough to either extreme, you end up meeting in the middle
That Leave.EU tweet seems to have pushed even lifelong Eurosceptics too far. Interesting comments on this tweet.
https://twitter.com/AdrianYalland/status/1181666917427404800
kelvin – what policy could labour have adopted that those mps from leave voting areas could have supported? its 1/3 of the labour party mps. How could a differnt polcy have kept the votes of the levers in those northern towns?
Maybe shifting to second ref earlier?
Do it too much earlier and then the press would have pilloried them more thanthey have done
I really cannot see how they could have done differently without either splitting the party or losing those northern towns.
Any ideas? I am genuinely interested. Deposing Corbyn I would have no issue with but I do not see what another leader could have done differently the party is so split and the voters they have to attract are so varied in view
TJ ... I've voted mainly labour in Gen elections and sometimes (once i think) LibDem... but Corbyn is a blocker.
The truth is he wouldn't have been my preferred choice before all this Brexit crap but his behaviour over Brexit is the major reason I won't vote for him now.
I can't in all honesty say WHAT I'd vote without the Brexit crap but my gut feeling is I could find a way to vote for him until he got deposed and worse case there is the next GE .... and hey it might work out... It's not like its BREXIT and a one way ticket...
What could Labour/Corbyn have done ... THEIR JOB AS OPPOSITION.... who else other than Labour would really have any credibility in those Northern towns explaining how and why people were lied to and misled.
Farmers turning on them now.
Yes, this was always bound to happen as soon as the reality hit the fan and people were able to talk about actual policies. Why do you think May kept everything under wraps for so long?
What could Labour/Corbyn have done … THEIR JOB AS OPPOSITION
And what would you have them oppose? Brexit? Given their electoral base? We've been over this. Much as you or I would have liked it, they could not simply come out and say bollocks to Brexit. They'd have been destroyed. Ok so their current policy hasn't worked well either, but that doesn't mean the alternative would be better. It may well be worse.
The mistake remainer Labour leaning people seem to be making is that 'X hasn't worked, therefore Y would for sure because I like Y'. That does not follow at all.
Re Brexiteers themselves - I think it is possible for someone to be anti-immigration and not racist. There can be social and economic issues with immigration if poorly handled. Although I say this as someone who is absolutely pro-immigration. Like most things, if you screw it up, it has negative consequences.
Many many moons ago Cougar suggested that politicians should look at why people voted Brexit, and work on policies that spoke to those needs and wants… rather than pretending that Brexit would solve those issues. That should have been Labour’s approach…
This. So much this. This would have been the properly 'democratic' response to such a slim margin for leaving, as it would have allowed the people to have had their say, but still displayed good governance by taking an appropriate response to the slim majority for leaving.
Would have required too much clever politiccing though. They would have needed short, snappy robust responses for every Brexit trope, INCLUDING the 'will of the people nonsense'.
Immigration? What about the controls we already have?
Cost of EU Membership? What about the economic benefits?
Fishing? We propose an offshore wind industry and will retrain fishermen etc
Sovereignty? Here's a list of EU laws that we have contributed to the creation of blah blah blah
It would have taken concerted and coordinated effort and ultimately I think it was just beyond the abilities of modern politicians. Although I do also accept that they would have received no help at all from the press.
That should have been Labour’s approach…
So you criticise their nuanced and balanced policy on brexit for not being simple enough, then suggest they should have done something much more balanced and nuanced instead? One thing that has struck me about the remain reaction to labour policy is that, to use a topical phrase, they want to have their cake and eat it. They want labour to be both simple and easy to communicate to counter the 'brexit means brexit' rubbish, but also want it to be detailed and nuanced enough to address the concerns of leave voters so that they won't vote leave. You can't have it both ways.
Molgrips, why would have labour been hit so hard by more strongly supporting remain when their leave voting base was only a few percentage higher than the Lib Dem’s - who have clearly not lost any support by robustly supporting remain.
They want labour to be both simple and easy to communicate to counter the ‘brexit means brexit’ rubbish, but also want it to be detailed and nuanced enough to address the concerns of leave voters so that they won’t vote leave. You can’t have it both ways.
thats daft
all Corbyn has to say is that we must ditch the poisonous political & financial black hole that is Brexit because otherwise we will never be able to get on with tackling the actual issues the country faces
....
He can't say that because he doesn't think it. He thinks the opposite of that.
He formed an opinion 40+ years ago, in the 70's, along with Tony Benn and Michael Foot that the EU is an evil, capitalist, neo-liberal conspiracy that exists purely to impoverish and exploit the workers of Europe and must be resisted.
And as we all know, he hasn't changed his mind on anything, ever, due to always being right about everything
The Corbynite vision for this country has always involved Brexit and being outside the EU. Still does. Always will do.
Quack.
I think it is possible for someone to be anti-immigration and not racist.
It's possible, sure. But I doubt it's a 50:50 split.
There can be social and economic issues with immigration if poorly handled.
How are you unpicking that from racism, out of interest?
Social issues: "there's too many foreigners on my street, I hear they're going to be building a mosque"
Economic issues: "coming over here, taking our jobs"
If someone is against immigration and that's 100% nothing to do with racism, is it safe to assume that they'd also be against people having babies?
So here comes Johnsons desperate final play - emergency sitting of parliament on the 19th - what trickery is he going to try? My bet is to try to get a vote to supersede the Benn act and / or to confirm a leave on the 31st
he is looking desperate now.
what trickery is he going to try?
World record filibuster?
He has to hold a sitting then, because that's when Wandering Hands Johnson has made his bestymost totally true promises about getting a deal done by, so obviously there will be something to vote through. Clearly he'll also table the option of death by No Deal. As to what else? Who knows. I don't see either of those being voted through, even assuming a deal has been done. Also that's the day of the Benn law, so the legal angle must be that if the deal hasn't been agreed then he has to write the magic letter. Although if he's in parliament lying about, well, anything and everything, for the entire of the 19th he'll probably claim he wasn't able to find the time.
I'm sure Prime Minister Cummings has something else totally above board and legitimate planned for the occasion.
Binners - apart from he clearly and publicly has changed his mind on the EU. to paraphrase he said " I used to be against staying in the EU but now on balance I have been persuaded that staying is is right"
He has campaigned to stay in, he has accepted a second vote, he will campaign again against any tory deal he will atteampt to get a softest of soft brexits if he has the power to do do to cause minimum damage while respecting the referendum. But for you he can do no right so you have to invent or repeat stuff about him that is easily disproved.
also you are wrong on Benn - Benn hated the EU because he feared the power of germany - he was of the wartime generation and distrusted / hated them to the point of xenophobia. He considered the EU to be the german empire mk2
But then - don't let facts get in the way of your rantings
I'm struggling to see what the Parliamentary route to something sensible is now. Have they got time to vote down the Queen's Speech, go through the normal VONC procedures, set up an interim unity govt?
I suppose one scenario is to bring back May's 'deal' with minor amendments and a 2nd ref attached and pass that, then ask for an extension to hold the ref? That could take several months.
There can be social and economic issues with immigration if poorly handled.
How are you unpicking that from racism, out of interest?
Social issues: “there’s too many foreigners on my street, I hear they’re going to be building a mosque”
Economic issues: “coming over here, taking our jobs”
Cougar, that's unusually knee-jerk of you...unless I've mis-interpreted.
There can be social and economic issues as a result of migration from within the same country, and that's clearly nothing to do with racism.
If people move from one place to another there is always a social impact of integrating those new people into the area in terms of services and infrastructure required to support them, getting used to an existing community etc. It can be made harder if they're not native language speakers or have different cultural values. But lets be clear, issues != bad. Likewise economic impacts, whether it be on employment prospects, housing, whatever, and the impact can be positive as well as negative.
Even building a new housing estate can have issues if local services and infrastructure are not equipped to support the new population, that's an 'issue' that needs planning and management, like many other issues.
Obviously the way you respond to that can be either negative or positive, and the outcome can be overwhelmingly positive both locally and nationally, but it is right to recognise that there are impacts that come with migration and immigration, planning for and managing them is the job of our government and it is only right that they do so.
There's nothing racist about saying that immigration and migration comes with challenges as well as rewards, and can need management. The racism is in how you choose to react to those impacts.
Remainer and supporter of FOM and immigration here BTW.
Scottish Court will sit on 21st October to consider sending the extension request letter if the PM doesn't.
to paraphrase he said
you have to invent or repeat stuff about him
You’ve been doing this for years TJ… putting the words you want to hear from Corbyn (often exactly what I’d like to hear from him as well) into his mouth, and claiming to speak for him, when he is carefully chosen not to use those words.
If he has recently said “I have been persuaded that staying in is right”, it would be good to see/hear him say those words… it might help garner some trust with those voters lost to other parties that we really need to win back to voting Labour down here.
Cougar, that’s unusually knee-jerk of you…unless I’ve mis-interpreted.
I was just asking a question in what I thought was an irreverent fashion. Maybe my sense of humour falls flat sometimes.
There can be social and economic issues as a result of migration from within the same country, and that’s clearly nothing to do with racism.
I hadn't really considered that, and you're right of course. But I'm fairly confident that when most people complain about immigration they don't really mean someone moving to London from Birmingham. Unless they're of a rather swarthy complexion, anyway.
He said that during the referendum campaign - I cannot remember the exact words but that was the gist and I cannot be bothered googling for it as none of you want to hear.
Oh, 2016… well many MPs said that back then… when they thought Remain would win… and are now fully gung ho about Brexit. What does Corbyn say now about being in the EU?
In a speech in London, Mr Corbyn said: "We, the Labour Party, are overwhelmingly for staying in, because we believe the European Union has brought investment, jobs and protection for workers, consumers and the environment.
"But also because we recognise that our membership offers a crucial route to meeting the challenges we face in the 21st century, on climate change, on restraining the power of global corporations and ensuring they pay fair taxes, on tackling cyber-crime and terrorism, on ensuring trade is fair with protections for workers and consumers and in addressing refugee movements."
I still believe the European Union has all the shortcomings I've relentlessly pointed out over the years, but ultimately I'm an internationalist, who believes in collective solutions – and my new friend Yanis Varoufakis says the best way to make the case for change is to stay.
He’s a Brexiteer. Always was. Always will be.
That’s why he was absolutely determined to scupper the vote, at conference, for Labour to campaign for remain in the event of a second referendum (which he also has a rather questionable commitment to delivering). What was orchestrated to prevent it happening was an old school stitch up with Len McClusky and the union block vote. And it was planned and deliberate.
Just reading in the Grauniad that Uber-Corbynite and rabid Brexiteer Carrie Murphy has been moved over (by Grandad) to head Labours election strategy team, so anyone hoping for a less Brexity approach will be out of luck. It still looks like Red Unicorns are the way forward.
Dom and Dommer will be delighted to see that, as more former labour voters sigh with despair and look towards the Lib Dems
Daz - does that look like the actions of a party leadership that can be trusted on Brexit to deliver what their MP's, members and voters overwhelmingly want?
You say Corbyn is the only way to try and prevent Brexit. Any objective analysis would conclude he is absolutely nothing of the sort
Have they got time to vote down the Queen’s Speech, go through the normal VONC procedures, set up an interim unity govt?
Calling a VONC, winning it, and setting up a new govt could be done in 3 days. All it needs is a majority in the HOC to pass a queen's speech following the defeat of the govt in a VONC. For that the lib dems and tory 'rebels' will have to forget their fantasies about changing the leadership of the labour party.
Was that quote from 2016 TJ? What does he say now? Something like that, but with the addition that the 2016 vote won’t be ignored, explaining why we should stay in the EU, but that voters would have to have the final say in a referendum, would be very welcome. When he does speak about Brexit these days, he seems to want to sound agnostic about the EU… which just means no one trusts him. His ‘constructive ambiguity’ since 2017 isn’t helping the country find a way forward.
fantasies about changing the leadership of the labour party
Change the record Dazh, you’re sounding like an astroturfer.
The caretaker PM doesn’t have to be the leader of the Labour Party.
But I’m fairly confident that when most people complain about immigration they don’t really mean someone moving to London from Birmingham
I imagine you're right, but I was just trying to highlight that many of the concerns/issues/challenges are equally valid for internal migration, so it doesn't necessarily have to be borne of a racist standpoint and there can be genuine concerns about the impact of immigration that are entirely divorced from the origin of said immigrants.
Are people calling for an end to UK internal movement? If the same issues surround that, why aren’t they? The answer seems obvious.
The caretaker PM doesn’t have to be the leader of the Labour Party.
There is a route to ensure the prevention of no deal that will take a matter of days, or they can start complex cross-party negotiations to agree a new PM candidate. 3 weeks and counting! Which do you think has more chance of succeeding?
And what would you have them oppose? Brexit? Given their electoral base?
Well on the basis that 65% of Labour voters were in favour of remain, then yes.
He’s a Brexiteer. Always was. Always will be.
No it's not that clear cut.
He voted remain and campaigned for remain. Why bother if you're a Brexiteer?
Reluctant remainer.
But yeah you have your polarising glasses on.
Well on the basis that 65% of Labour voters were in favour of remain, then yes.
But the critical seats are leave.