[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Chewk what difference does it make if a law is passed by someone in Brussels I didn't vote for or in Westminster by someone I didn't vote for?
The light at the end of the tunnel is me retiring to somewhere in the sun. That light is going out due to the pound being worth **** all and no doubt some tit for tat restriction on people moving around Europe.

I am simply sick of recessions, deranged Tory/Labour governments, banking disasters and Brexiteers willing suspension of disbelief. From starting work in 1979 I have endured at least 15 crap years to date and now there will be another 8 to 10? Years so 25 years of crap out of 50 years working.

feeling wise we are happy, well at least I am over the moon

Well, as long as those that take pleasure in the suffering of offers are happy, it's all going to be worthwhile.

Ha ha at Telegraph article. I did the government's exporting for SMEs course a few years ago. Even though this was aimed at encouraging export, one of the biggest takeaways was that you start with countries in which the business environment was stable. The most important thing being that you were going to get paid. Basically this meant Europe - with Japan and the US as the next steps. Although outside Europe you had to do a lot more compliance research and work. Also that you should have at least £10k you could afford to lose on market research and checking practical stages. For each market.

I struggle to see a realistic scenario in which SME food producers can stage a huge increase in exports beyond Europe and magic away the trade deficit.

kelvin - Member

feeling wise we are happy, well at least I am over the moon

Well, as long as those that take pleasure in the suffering of offers are happy, it's all going to be worthwhile.

"Voting out" has given a warm fuzzy feeling to quite a lot of people (not to mention encouraging the people with Xenophobic tendencies to express themselves) and their view that the innately superior UK (England) can "take back control" -of what, is not clear.

Actually leaving the EU may not maintain the warm, fuzzy feeling, and that might take a while and is a bit complicated anyway....

The nation (well, a small majority) voting out has given a distinctly unpleasant feeling to a lot of other people.

well at least I am over the moon

Strange, I'd never have guessed.

Doesn't mean you don't have a nasty shock coming though. Or maybe you won't.

But I love your suggestion. Wait for the trade deals - say 5 years - then wait for them to take effect - say 10 years.

Or in other words condemn an entire working generation as an experiment to find out how much worse off we'll be outside a large free market.

Mad.

Well these responses are just typical of the defeatist attitudes we've come to expect from traitorous bremoaners like you lot. get off your ar53s and sell some scones to Tajikistan!!!

[img] [/img]

feeling wise we are happy, well at least I am over the moon

Well as long as you're OK.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mps-could-block-brexit-deal-no-10-admits-a7368561.html

We make 1.6m+ vehicles a year in the UK. Presumably that's enough volume to warrant heat treating here or building the capability to do so

So you want to develop specialist industries in this country for all specialities in all industries so that you can do everything in-house?

Have you any idea how many extra people that would take? It would take decades of investment in education, training, industry.

The US can do this because it's so big - the EU can also do it because it's so big. Alone, we are too small to do everything ourselves. That's one benefit to the EU as I said before - it gives us some of the advantages of being in a very big country.

julians - Member
No it doesn't. There is no evidence that FoM has a signifanct impact on wages. It doesn't matter how many times this lie is repeated, it won't become true
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37577620

Bbc news article states that freedom.of movement does negatively affect wages.

POSTED 2 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST SHARE

May I suggest that you reread both my post and your link

[quote=colournoise > http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mps-could-block-brexit-deal-no-10-admits-a7368561.html
br />

Anyone got a feel for how that vote would go? I know every SNP MP will vote against leaving. got to reckon there's enough pro EU support to put an end to this nonsense.

Huge majority in the house to stay in the EU if given a vote of conscience ie unwhipped.

This is why May has been trying to avoid a vote in the commons because she knows it will be very hard to get thru

[quote=tjagain ]Huge majority in the house to stay in the EU if given a vote of conscience ie unwhipped.
This is why May has been trying to avoid a vote in the commons because she knows it will be very hard to get thru

or she just pretends she's taking a hard line knowing full well it would end up blocked in the commons and she can them blame that rather than taking the fall herself.

Also means the EU can play hardball safe in the knowledge that if the deal offered is sufficiently terrible, MPs will chuck it out.

No wonder Cameron didn't want to hang around to see this one play out - a true no-win situation for May. What can she do? She has no bargaining position whatsoever. Let's face it, she hardly has one even with the backing of MPs.

Commons vote could unleash political and social turmoil.

[quote=molgrips ]Commons vote could unleash political and social turmoil.

Any worse than the current fiasco?

or she just pretends she's taking a hard line knowing full well it would end up blocked in the commons and she can them blame that rather than taking the fall herself.

I think the tories will whip the Mps safe in the knowledge enough will ignore it

Yes, worse.

May could've been being devious all along. Hence appointing the three stooges to run it. Would explain a few things.

Her job will go along with the Three Amigos if it gets screwed up to that extent.

She blew it the minute she said she'll invoke A50 so soon.
Gives her no time to negotiate such complex trade and legal agreements,. Especially as France and Germany won't commit to anything until after their elections when we are so inexperienced at doing these international deals, it's whatever the EU offers or WTO and everyone except the truly economically illiterate know that would be disastrous for the country.

or she just pretends she's taking a hard line knowing full well it would end up blocked in the commons and she can them blame that rather than taking the fall herself.

they are not being offered in/out vote aren't they are being offered deal or no deal post a50 vote , brexit means brexit ! 🙄 which means Mays only chance to get it through parliament is the Norway option or some indeterminate Limbo. Hobson's choice!

KIimbers - the date of invoking article 50 makes no odds - the EU will not negotiate at all before article 50 is invoked - they have made that clear

I think your giving May too much credit, she failed at the Home Office to get migration down, she now has the chance to do that. That she it seems blocked the EU trade deal with India because of immigration. I am not sure if she can won't screw the economy just to tick a box.

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37705852 ]seems like they are making up as they go along [/url]

Perhaps they are hoping the Supreme Court will say the decision to invoke A50 must be passed by the commons first.

seems like they are making up as they go along

you mean free movement of labour.

Anyone got a feel for how that vote would go? I know every SNP MP will vote against leaving. got to reckon there's enough pro EU support to put an end to this nonsense.

Would Tory MPs in marginal southern consituencies that voted remain risk voting out and loosing their job?

seems like they are making up as they go along

And next they will exempt fruit picking, cockle picking, etc. etc.

What happens if the EUs final offer is threefold - stay, go and don't let the door hit you on the way out, or something that is technically go but very vey close to stay?
Brexit could mean Brexit without changing a thing.

Depends I suppose whether the EU a) realise they are negotiating with the monkey not the organ grinder and b) care.

There is no organ grinder, they are all monkeys throwing faeces around.

That's a little unfair to parliament - I've met a number of backbenchers I respect, fewer ministers - but I understand where you're coming from.

I hope no one I suggesting that Westminsetr is better placed to make decisions that the wider UK population or that parliamentary parties have a greater say than members and the wider voters?

Lock me in the tower THM

And if we are removed from the clutches of the ECJ we will be free of pesky interfering outside tribunals telling us what to do.....

The best international agreement is not worth very much if its obligations cannot be enforced when one of the signatories fails to comply with such obligations. An effective mechanism to settle disputes thus increases the practical value of the commitments the signatories undertake in an international agreement.

https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/disp_settlement_cbt_e/c1s1p1_e.htm

you know that saying about koolaid

awhiles I think you can forgive me for trying to counterbalance the huge amount of negativity of those on the Remain side bring to the thread. Phillip Hammond spoke today at Commons Select Committee and distanced himself and the Government from the doom and gloom predictions touted by Osbourne who basically came up with worst case scenarios for just about everything, e.g. immediate A50, no BoE/Government policy response, no trade deals signed with anyone etc

TJ I will try and google the piece I read but it was many months ago, cumulative net contributions over 10 years. BTW the contributions do change quite a lot each year and are based on factors like relative economic performance so ours have been heading steadily upwards as we outperform the bulk of the EU

Nipper international agreements tend to (always ?) specify the legal jurisdiction so that both parties know where to take any dispute. Could be London, New York or of course the ECJ

Jam we are being negative for a reason...

THM, all i will say is that politicians are paid to understand and make decisions about the best interests of the country, that is their job.

My job is databases, there is no expectation that i understand the ins and outs of the Maastricht treaty, treaty of Rome etc etc. Why anyone thinks that the average voter remotely understands the question and the full implication of the outcome is beyond me.

Osbourne who basically came up with worst case scenarios for just about everything, e.g. immediate A50, no BoE/Government policy response, no trade deals signed with anyone etc

Sounds the brexit campaign. In fact it sounds like you talking about the EU.

awhiles I think you can forgive me for trying to counterbalance the huge amount of negativity of those on the Remain side bring to the thread.

Negativity or an objective observation of reality as it unfolds? Although I guess you and reality don't have much to do with each other these days. I know people have accused you of lacking empathy in the past but that comment really does take the biscuit.

The very least you could do Jam is acknowledge the huge risks being made with *our* economy, our jobs and livelihoods, and the removal of rights we cherish?

Surely?

Phillip Hammond spoke today at Commons Select Committee and distanced himself and the Government from the doom and gloom predictions touted by Osbourne

Well yes, but it was a half-hearted distancing wasn't it? And he also distanced himself from the Rudd/May immigration controls.

molgrips - Member
The very least you could do Jam is acknowledge the huge risks being made with *our* economy, our jobs and livelihoods, and the removal of rights we cherish?

Surely?

Shirley the risks are equal both ways, in or out there is great risk.

History teaches that much.

Personally I think the fact we are being forced to be aware of risk and encouraged to greater endeavour is in itself a positive factor, we could have stayed in the EU and sleepwalked along with them into what is inevitably going to be an horrendous disaster.

tjagain - Member
KIimbers - the date of invoking article 50 makes no odds - the EU will not negotiate at all before article 50 is invoked - they have made that clear

Indeed but the sooner we invoke it. The less time we have to create the department's that will do the negotiations, recruit staff, research the existing rules, examine our options and investigate the implications of the possible choices before us as we embark on the most complicated negotiations the country has ever had to undertake.

Added to that , even once we've initiated A50 -both France and Germany won't be able to commit to any offers until after their elections, which means the 2 years will be almost wasted before we know exactly what their positions will be .

It also means that we can't even informally deal with nation's outside the EU, as the USA pointed out yesterday, it will be impossible for them to do so without knowing our relationship with the EU

Shirley the risks are equal both ways, in or out there is great risk.

History teaches that much.

There is no equivalence here unless you also think like this

we could have stayed in the EU and sleepwalked along with them into what is inevitably going to be an horrendous disaster.

Uncertainty is a risk - no one has clue what we will get or how we will trade this is not an issue with remain as nothing changes.
How can anyone think no change is the same risk as change with an uncertain /unknowable outcome?

Let me just throw this analogy in here: both lorries and bicycles introduce risk to the roads...

Added to that , even once we've initiated A50 -both France and Germany won't be able to commit to any offers until after their elections, which means the 2 years will be almost wasted before we know exactly what their positions will be .

Alternatively it becomes an election issue for them, and their own electorate start asking awkward questions of the current paradigm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/25/view-from-germany-hans-kundnani-britain-eu-vote-leave

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/euroscepticism-on-the-rise-across-europe-as-analysis-finds-increasing-opposition-to-the-eu-in-france-a7069766.html

posted on FB, fom a pub in 'middle england'

[img] [/img]

You think their electorate are going to look at the nosediving pound, stunted growth and growing inflation and say "Wow! We want some of that!" 😆

Shirley the risks are equal both ways, in or out there is great risk

Surely why? Who says? On what evidence have you objectively evaluated the risks of in vs out? Show me your working.

The risk to me clearly seems far greater simply pulling the plug, and causing massive disruption and disadvantage to thousands of businesses. We've spent 40 years allowing businesses to grow together, and now we want to pull it all apart in a mad rush for political reasons?

If we wanted out, we should've debated it, planned it, stated it as a long term aim and worked towards it.

I'm standing on a cliff.

If I jump off, there is obviously a risk I'll die.
Or I might be lucky and just be horrendously broken.

On the other hand, if I don't jump, there are still loads of risks ahead of me.
And death is still a certainty.

Might as well face up to it and jump.
What difference does it make?
Both options have "risk".
Let's get this over with.

Uncertainty is a risk - no one has clue what we will get or how we will trade this is not an issue with remain as nothing changes.
How can anyone think no change is the same risk as change with an uncertain /unknowable outcome?

OK with that incredibly naive couple of sentences, I shall bite even though I know I'm being trolled here.

Let's just analyse what you have just written. In essence the suggestion that being part of a superstate that has rolled it's borders right over and up to Russia and in doing so has disturbed the Bear to paraphrase a mistake made once before, is going to mean nothing is going to change?

One thing is certain, change is inevitable, in or out there are risks, they are just different risks.

Who would have thought just five years ago, we as a nation with a history of providing help and refuge from war, would have voted for a closed door policy? That vote is purely as a result of having a megalomaniacal neighbour, hell bent on expansion without a single consideration for the consequences.

The very actions of the EU have forced this backlash upon us.

To remain a part of that would be very stupid indeed.

Molgrips, you are allowing yourself to be manipulated by the corporate capitalist world, this isn't just about business, **** them, they can look after themselves, businesses do not exist for the benefit of ordinary working folk, they use them abuse them screw their pensions, pay them the absolute minimum they can get away with whilst milking them at every opportunity for every last penny they own.

The Trade argument will easily be resolved it always has been and always will be and you'll still get made redundant just as soon as a machine can be devised to do your job better than you can.

In a way this is like devolution, and I still can't follow the logic of the Indy mob that want Independence for themselves yet whine like buggery when we as a nation want it for ourselves.

So, without the EU expanding past the Berlin Wall, Europe would be safer from an ever threatening Russia?

You really think that?

Buisness are not "them" they are "us", unless you work in the public sector.

Molgrips, you are allowing yourself to be manipulated by the corporate capitalist world, this isn't just about business, **** them, they can look after themselves, businesses do not exist for the benefit of ordinary working folk, they use them abuse them screw their pensions, pay them the absolute minimum they can get away with whilst milking them at every opportunity for every last penny they own.

[quote="rosscore"]The Trade argument will easily be resolved it always has been and always will be

Is this meant to be ironic?
Trade deals take many years to work out and according to the tory governments own figures we will need to increase our trade with the ten nations outside the EU we most trade with by 37% to simply stand still in terms of exports

Now I'm really confused, I hadn't realised we'd voted to leave NATO

Also our closed door on refugees is the EUs fault despite most EU nations especially germany taking in millions of refugees? Remember we created the refugees with our warmongering in the middle east along with our partners in crime the US.

Hello! earth to Rosscore....... are you receiving me.....

Who would have thought just five years ago, we as a nation with a history of providing help and refuge from war, would have voted for a closed door policy? That vote is purely as a result of having a megalomaniacal neighbour, hell bent on expansion without a single consideration for the consequences.

The very actions of the EU have forced this backlash upon us.

And I was thinking it had something to do with the War going on in the middle east not started by the EU, and expansion through countries [b]WANTING[/b] to join the EU.

Molgrips, you are allowing yourself to be manipulated by the corporate capitalist world, this isn't just about business, **** them, they can look after themselves, businesses do not exist for the benefit of ordinary working folk, they use them abuse them screw their pensions, pay them the absolute minimum they can get away with whilst milking them at every opportunity for every last penny they own.

Leaving the EU is not going to solve that. You people seem to think some sort of Utopia for the workers is going to magically spring up post brexit, quite the opposite will happen.

It never ceases to amaze me that people think that globalisation and all it brings is somehow going to be held off by plucky little Britain leaving the EU.

kelvin - Member
So, without the EU expanding past the Berlin Wall, Europe would be safer from an ever threatening Russia?

You really think that?

Yes I most definitely believe that.

Who would have thought just five years ago, we as a nation with a history of providing help and refuge from war, would have voted for a closed door policy? That vote is purely as a result of having a megalomaniacal neighbour, hell bent on expansion without a single consideration for the consequences.

load of bollox

try this...

An internal dispute in the Tory party spilled over into the political mainstream, the resentment generated by 6 years of the largest ever cuts seen to our society meant that the country became fertile ground for lowest common denominator gutter press, racist demagogues and self serving politicians to feed their own egos and irreparably damage the country, narrowly winning a referendum.
The winning side having told some of the most outrageous lies in modern political history.

OK with that incredibly naive couple of sentences, I shall bite even though I know I'm being trolled here.

Molgrips, you are allowing yourself to be manipulated by the corporate capitalist world, this isn't just about business, **** them, they can look after themselves

I dunno about you but I, like most people work for a business. I'm not talking about 'rich fat cat business [i]people[/i]' I'm talking about the companies we work for. You appear to be confusing the two things.

I want a job. And I don't mean fruit picking.

The Trade argument will easily be resolved it always has been and always will be

What makes you say that? I'm sceptical, I'm going to need convincing.

An internal dispute in the Tory party spilled over into the political mainstream, the resentment generated by 6 years of the largest ever cuts seen to our society meant that the country became fertile ground for lowest common denominator gutter press, racist demagogues and self serving politicians to feed their own egos and irreparably damage the country, narrowly winning a referendum, the winning side have told some of the most outrageous lies in modern political history.

+100.

Yes I most definitely believe that.

Where do you stand on the moon landings and the twin towers collapse?

Leaving the EU is not going to solve that. You people seem to think some sort of Utopia for the workers is going to magically spring up post brexit, quite the opposite will happen.

It never ceases to amaze me that people think that globalisation and all it brings is somehow going to be held off by plucky little Britain leaving the EU.

No and I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks that, but it had to stop. There is never going to be a Utopia in or out of Europe, this was just a wake up call to the idiots running the show, that not everybody for a host of very different reasons wanted it to continue the way it was headed and now it is all change and yes we all know/knew it would be difficult, but it had to be this way, sorry if you're not that happy about it, but in the long run I'm fairly sure it'll sort itself out right side up eventually as long as the damned yanks don't put their x's in the wrong box.

Still not seeing anything that indicates you fully understand the situation rosscore. Just a lot of empty phrases. Including what amounts to "It'll be fine".

Good skills.

what had to stop ?

sorry if you're not that happy about it, but in the long run I'm fairly sure it'll sort itself out

In the long run, I'll be dead, so unable to appreciate this nirvana you're promising me.

sorry if you're not that happy about it, but in the long run I'm fairly sure it'll sort itself out right side up eventually

I'm sure we will all be laughing about it in ten years time, drinking tea, and eating all that cake that we didn't manage to export to the World. 🙄

Actually no, sod the Socratic method.

Rosscore - you are making, and have made an emotive judgement, not an objective one. You've chosen on sentiment and not evidence.

When it comes to people's livelihoods this is A BAD THING. I do not share your sentiment, I should not have to suffer its consequences.

And that's just the economics. Never mind the rights you've stripped away FROM ME and worse still MY KIDS.

****ing angry.

I'm sure we will all be laughing about it in ten years time, drinking tea, and eating all that cake that we didn't manage to export to the World.

and the jam, don't forget the jam

I dunno about you but I, like most people work for a business. I'm not talking about 'rich fat cat business people' I'm talking about the companies we work for. You appear to be confusing the two things.

I run a little business it used to be a little bigger business but it got steam rollered due to an ill considered attempt to centralise in Europe, 22 folk lost their jobs and twenty years of effort went up the pictures, but that's just the way things are.

When I first went to work there were 400 folk working in the Printing works that I served my apprenticeship at, there were jobs for stone hands, compositors, hot and cold metal typographers, linotype operators, there were union closed shops, the NUJ, NGA, NATSOPA SOGAT demarkation disputes and the managerial types would have you believe it was the unions that did for us, it wasn't, it was the computer.

Fact is the computer has done for loads of businesses, it did for my first print business where 38 folk had to be laid off by me on Christmas frisking eve in 1990 precisely because we had been so efficient at introducing direct entry computerisation to EMAP and our contract got curtailed a year early.

The moral of all this, shit happens, times change we have to deal with it and move on, think of something else.

Nothing is certain, nothing is forever, the key now plan ahead, property in Eire is going to go through the roof again, in the short term they are almost certainly going to be the winners in the next two years if nothing dramatic happens to the EU and I'm fairly sure something dramatic will happen, I'm not sure they are going to be able to just carry on as if nothing has happened either.

but it got steam rollered due to an ill considered attempt to centralise in Europe

Ah so that's the source of your antipathy.

Well please don't steamroller all the rest of our jobs out of spite, ok?

Fact is the computer has done for loads of businesses

And yet, we are still mostly employed. Computers have created as many jobs as they destroyed. Leaving the EU is not going to do the same thing, because all the other countries with businesses against whom we compete all still have the advantage of being in a large economy.

What you've said is equivalent to me coming into your house, smashing all the crockery and saying 'shit happens, move on'.

Explain how the EU led to the demise of your business?

In the war museum there is a picture of a bridge in Bulgaria.
The photo was taken by one of our spies who risked who knows what to take it and smuggle it back to britain.
Today I can freely visit that bridge, I can move to the town nearest to it, I can get a job there.
That is my freedom. I can go and live in the forests of Poland, I can live in the alps, I can live in a shack on a Greek island ,I can go and live in the Artic Circle and get a job as father christmas.
Why put up barriers,why build walls?

And yet, we are still mostly employed.