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Why on Earth is Corbyn so keen on delivering a labour Brexit
Why d'you think?!
Can you not read english?
Can you? I pointed this out yesterday and you've ignored it.
Even the guardian which hates Corbyn and labour now accept that labour policy is any deal negotiated by any PM goes to a second referndum with leave and remain options
...
You’ve linked to a statement that he supports a referendum with “real options for both Leave and Remain voters”.
These two statements look superficially similar, but they are not the same thing. Not by a long way. The Red Unicorns "jobs first" brexit could easily be presented to satisfy the latter statement but not the former.
well Labour had their chance.......
they blew it
again
As I read it the Labour party has produced a policy to campaign for a second referendum with a remain option but only if it's not in power. One can only assume the lack of a policy for being in power is the knowledge that that will never happen.
https://twitter.com/bbcnormans/status/1148539055342309376?s=21
Repeatly calling for a General Election before Brexit, to move this country on from its stagnant holding pattern, is still a good approach… but you need a clear policy on Brexit when calling for that General Election… without it you just look opportunist and not ready to govern.
Oh God! I can see whats coming now. Once the Tory's have installed the self-serving mop, Corbyn is going to pop up and demand a referendum every five minutes, like he did with demanding a general election a while back.
And he knows full well that he's about as likely to get it. Not a cat in hells chance.
Unfortunately this will comprise, in its entirety, what Jezza considers his duties as leader of HM Opposition
I hope he does take that approach. Cross Party support for a referendum on the current WA vs Remain, and an extension from the EU to hold it, is the most realistic path to chase… if we don't have an election. This new policy statement is all about forming a constructive position to take in opposition, and as such should be welcomed as just that, but only that.
As I read it the Labour party has produced a policy to campaign for a second referendum with a remain option but only if it’s not in power.
As I said earlier, you can't have a confirmatory referendum on a deal if there's no deal. If a new labour govt did not at least attempt to negotiate a new deal they would be rightly criticised for not taking their responsibilities as a government properly. If they succeed in agreeing a new deal, they obviously can't campaign agaist it. If they fail (which is very likely), then the only options that remain are the existing deal or no deal, both of which they have said they will oppose in favour of remain.
Odd that you all seem very intent feeling defeated when you've won the argument. Corbyn could dance through whitehall in EU underpants and you'd still complain about it. Nothing in this whole debate makes any rational sense any more 🙂
So Labour's preferred option (you have to assume they want to be in power right?) is for Brexit under a Corbyn deal, if they don't get into power they'll support Remain. So the preferred Labour option is basically part fantasy and part another massive time wasting scenario while we're left in limbo. Yay, please take my vote Labour as that's so attractive...
Odd that you all seem very intent feeling defeated when you’ve won the argument.
I think it's more that they can't possibly be seen to climb down from their virulently anti-Corbyn agendas.
Wel I've been in the anti-Corbyn camp (don't think I was virulent though) but this seems to be a big move in the right direction to me.
I hope that it continues, and also that it's not too late - I'm still clinging to this hope that Brexit can be averted, and this makes that just a little more likely for me...
So in short, I think I have this right.
Labour are now a remain party while in opposition. However, should they win a GE & we haven't yet left the EU, they aren't saying which way they would go?
Not quite.
While in opposition they're now sort of remainy, in a vague ineffectual manner that they'll keep demanding a referendum, obviously without any chance of actually getting one.
But should they get in power they will be honouring the result of the referendum and fulfilling the will of the people. The red unicorns will gallop free across the pastures of the EU
Clear?
Its all totally logical and rational and makes perfect sense
Why on Earth is Corbyn so keen on delivering a labour Brexit
Because Corbyn is anti-EU and has been for decades. It's a form of Globalisation and at odds with Socialism.
Labour are now a remain party while in opposition. However, should they win a GE & we haven’t yet left the EU, they aren’t saying which way they would go?
As much as I don't mind a bit of a Corbyn bashing, this stance, for me at least is the correct one for the long-term sanity of the UK.
It correctly acknowledges that it's not a simple case of in/out with the EU.
They believe correctly that the current deal, which let's be honest is dead is bad for the UK and worse than remaining. They assume (correctly) that any deal that Boris or Hunt makes in an effort to bring their Party into line will be worse. They also know how bad a 'no deal' will be.
So, when the New PM tries to pass their deal they will fight it via Ref2 which is the ONLY way to go, to unilaterally revoke would be terrible, whatever the latest polls. In a choice between Tory deal and remain, they think remain is better.
However, if a GE is called, which is likely, they think they can cut a deal that's better than remaining on balance (a real heart v head fight between economics and 'freedom') - I don't think they can and wouldn't vote for it unless they can some how convince the EU to let us stay for less money.
The most important thing for me is that they promise to offer a 2nd ref on that deal too, with remain as an option.
That's all I want, a second fact based vote, not respecting the stupid remain v unicorn we had 3 years ago.
If, with all the facts at our disposal we still vote to leave, even though I know Leave will lie and cheat again, then I will personally vow to shut the **** up about it.
That said, I still won't vote for them as long as they're lead by a Socialist. I just don't believe in it.
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(said, and much better, above)
That said, I still won’t vote for them as long as they’re lead by a Socialist. I just don’t believe in it.
It does exist - the NHS
P-Jay. I think your summary is all that any of us want. The chance to vote remain on ANY deal, whether it is a Labour deal, a Tory deal or No deal. The wording of the statement today offer remain as an option ONLY against a Tory deal or No deal. In the event of a Labour GE win and a negotiation of a Labour deal, the offer of a referendum is there but will only include No deal or the Labour deal as ballot options. This is how it is written. This is why people are rightly still not happy with the wording/stance. I have nothing against Labour attempting to get a better deal if they gain power, but think it stinks that they won't commit to giving the public a Remain option against any deal they put forward, while wanting that option against a Tory deal.
In the event of a Labour GE win and a negotiation of a Labour deal, the offer of a referendum is there but will only include No deal or the Labour deal as ballot options. This is how it is written.
That isn't what is meant. Check the briefing being sent to Labour MPs:
https://twitter.com/hzeffman/status/1148543812786118656
Specifically (emphasis mine):
What would Labour's Brexit policy be in its GE manifesto?
... we need a credible deal to stop from crashing out with No Deal - and that deal should be put to a public vote along with the option to remain.
That quite clearly says to me "Labour deal vs remain" as the two options on any referendum if Labour are in power.
The wording of the statement today offer remain as an option ONLY against a Tory deal or No deal. In the event of a Labour GE win and a negotiation of a Labour deal, the offer of a referendum is there but will only include No deal or the Labour deal as ballot options. This is how it is written. This is why people are rightly still not happy with the wording/stance
You're right, I'd read the joint Union statement and not the Labour one.
That's a pain, and slightly insulting, it's almost seen as fact now that ref2 will be won by remain so they're not willing to offer us the same voice about their deal, only the Tory one.
I won't change my voting intention, I have thrown my lot in with the Lib Dems.
Specifically (emphasis mine):
What would Labour’s Brexit policy be in its GE manifesto?
… we need a credible deal to stop from crashing out with No Deal – and that deal should be put to a public vote along with the option to remain.That quite clearly says to me “Labour deal vs remain” as the two options on any referendum if Labour are in power.
Well THAT is very good news, I'd personally like to see it stated a little more officially that via a tweet of a document that was supposed sent to all Labour MPs, but as it's only an issue in the event of a GE, displayed clearly, without ambiguity in their manifesto, and I might trust them on it.
when you can argue about what they mean its not a clear message
unless Labour come out & say that
'Brexit will be a disaster for UK workers & the entire country we are unconditionally calling for a 2nd ref & want to remain'
they will not win back votes lost to the lib dems/greens and thats about 30% of their 2017 voters
likewise the 10% who voted Farage wont come back regardless
theyve fluffed it
& polls are now consistently showing them in 4th place
http://britainelects.com/2019/07/09/boris-wont-improve-tory-electoral-fortunes-poll-suggests/
That said, I still won’t vote for them as long as they’re lead by a Socialist. I just don’t believe in it.
It does exist – the NHS
The NHS is a publicly provided service. That isn't socialism. All systems have publicly provided services, even countries that have had far more right wing politics than the UK has had at any time over the last 60 years.
& polls are now consistently showing them in 4th place
I am not sure that is supported by the evidence although admittedly it is if you just pay attention to the blatherings of some fruitcakes.
The YouGov one which has become gospel to Binners and his fellow cultists doesnt match ComRes or Opinium.
Its actually a weird scenario since despite in theory the companies being close in methodology the Labour votes varies wildly.
That press release is just a horrible read. Answer the questions straight and actually give us an answer.
Labour brexit policy vs Liberal Democrat brexit policy
Mr Corbyn said Labour was now the "party of choice" when it came to Brexit.
Presumably, everyone can choose what they think Labour's policy is, because even Labour itself doesn't know.
But he does not say what he would do if he won a general election and was placed in charge of the Brexit process.
BBC story, where decisive Jeremy tells us exactly what he'd do... or not.
The NHS is a publicly provided service. That isn’t socialism.
That's precisely what it is. As you point out, every developed country has publicly-provided services to some degree, with the policies of various political parties appearing along a continuum. I'm not aware of any major party (including Labour) advocating full state/ collective ownership, or full privatisation of goods and services. It's a nonsense to describe Labour in the terms you have, when all they're actually proposing is mainstream social democratic policies that are pretty common across much of Europe.
It's interesting that those who oppose the idea of public or collective ownership of services become keener on it when it's of benefit to them personally.
So picking through this Labour policy is:
2nd ref and campaign on remain when in opposition
2nd ref with choice between Labour deal and remain if they win a GE. With deferred decision on what Labour will support
On the 2nd point I think that Labour would always have to offer a Labour deal v remain or it would be no deal and remain. Following that logic it would be slightly bizarre to seek a new deal and say unequivocally in advance they wouldn't support it.
Thoughts....?
As others have pointed out, Corbyn wants Brexit as the EU conflicts with his nationalistic socialism as opposed to the alternative international socialism.
Therefore a labour deal is a smokescreen, they know that it will never come to that. Whilst the EU have stated as much.
Basically nothing has changed.
Corbyn still wants Brexit but it must be a red Brexit.
Labour are still a pro-Brexit party.
Yes, pleased to hear that JC magic (tragic <- new one 😂) grandad has finally decided to speak "his" mind that Labour is now a remain party.
Game, set, match. 😄
JC will be Labour leader for a long time.
Labour are still a pro-Brexit party.
I think you need to go back and take a look at the indicative voting.
More accurately, Labour is an overwhelmingly anti-Brexit party that’s been Car-jacked and now has a rabidly pro-Brexit cabal, cackling manically at the wheel who couldn’t give a toss what the majority strapped in the back seat think
So, the Commons has passed a law making it harder for Boris (or anyone else) from ending parliament early to force a default no-deal. It’s not quite the outright block some are saying it is, but it’ll be much harder.
Sky and BBC aren’t obviously reporting it at the moment, focusing on the TV Debate and equalised marriage in NI.
The bigger issue (for me) is the the lack of clarity from Labour is dividing the Remain vote. So even if we get a GE before October it may not be enough to stop the madness.
Kier Starmer has just said that the Labour Party will take a decision on what its policy will be once a general election has been called.
The noises coming out of the Boris camp is that when he wins he will immediately call a snap general election on an unambiguous leave ‘no matter what!’ Ticket.
So what will Labour do then? It’ll immediately mire itself in the same endless twisting and turning procrastination and indecision that’s gone on so far
They need some leadership that will actually lead and make a decision, one way or another. Right now It’s just the same endless fudge full of what if’s and maybes and caveats. It’s pathetic!
It’ll immediately mire itself in the same endless twisting and turning procrastination and indecision that’s gone on so far
It's not procrastination and indecision. It's hedging. There's a huge difference
They may like to think of it as hedging. But it just looks exactly like procrastination and indecision.
Whatever you or I to refer to it as is largely irrelevant though. Its clearly not working.
The bottom line is that Labours hedging/dithering once an election was called would most likely deliver Boris a majority or, horror of horrors, some Boris/Farage freak show
That should be enough to focus minds in the labour leadership. I live in hope, but not expectation
TBF any announcements made about a forthcoming election are going to be huge 'if this, then that, or that' statements, depending on the environment at the time ( are we in or out at that point, for instance ), so it would it would be equally pointless.
Kier Starmer has just said that the Labour Party will take a decision on what its policy will be once a general election has been called.
The noises coming out of the Boris camp is that when he wins he will immediately call a snap general election on an unambiguous leave ‘no matter what!’ Ticket.
I believe their manifesto is voted on by, I don't know who actually, but they don't write it until an election is called, the statement yesterday said the same.
Boris is just mad enough to do that with them somewhere between 3rd and 4th in the Polls. Yes lots of people will return to form at a GE, but they'll lose seats (as will Labour) in all sorts of ways.
I guess that's where we are though, he knows, as does the rest of the world - Brexit is all but impossible with the MPs we have now. 10% seem to want to go no deal for the sheer chaos of it, 30% want some kind Tory Deal, 20% want some kind of Labour-esq deal and 60% know there's no way to achieve that doesn't mean a lot of suffering and they don't want the blame for it.
Here's the relevant section from the briefing doc given to Labour MPs…
So, yeah, mostly "we'll work it out later"… which could be seen as wise hedging, or just can-kicking, depending on who you've come to trust over the last few years.
If that last line changed to "- and that deal would be put to a public vote by a Labour government along with the option to remain", then I'd be up for campaigning for Labour in this seat, never mind voting for them. It might yet happen… and the messiah himself might utter that policy line once an election is called… we'll see… it does feel close though… but that could just be some residual wishful thinking.
it does feel close though
It feels close because that's what the policy is.
Then I'm sure he'll say so soon enough… hopefully, maybe, possibly… fingers crossed…
They may like to think of it as hedging. But it just looks exactly like procrastination and indecision.
Not to me, it's pretty clear what they are trying to do.
Whatever you or I to refer to it as is largely irrelevant though. Its clearly not working.
The motivation is relevant in your assessment of the situation. However you are right in that it is not working. But it's easy to sling mud - coming up with something that WOULD work is the tricky part isn't it?
I think that their research tells them that simply switching to remain would cause even bigger problems. We can guess all we like but we don't really know - if anyone does. But with the polls as they are I don't think the Tories will have a majority - I don't think anyone will. So then the big question will be who forms the government? That would be a right old bun-fight.
I think that their research tells them that simply switching to remain would cause even bigger problems. We can guess all we like but we don’t really know – if anyone does
I doubt that considering all the independent research and commentary to the contrary.
It’s more that Corbyn and his close allies have always been stubborn, less open to compromise than even Theresa May and highly ideological. That shows in their voting records.