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@metalheart I once described a project management situation in a large organisation where I worked that was like driving the wrong way down a one way street, the faster you go the less likely anyone is to notice until it's too late or you have hit the point of no return, unfortunatley in this case the driver is also drunk and dellusional. If they allow a pause or a discussion the reality of the situation will become apparent (it already is hence the step up in the gears - 88mph here we come and back in time we go)
"Full fiscal transfers from North to the South" so gifts then.
No - economics 101 - a simple, basic requirement of the system. Surpluses have to be recycled otherwise the system breaks.
Read Varoufakis (one of your Greek friends) on the global minotaur
aracer - THM said more than a couple of years ago that the euro was a failed experiment, Greece would be forced out within weeks and the euro would collapse.
One only has to look at the economic and social chaos across S Europe to recognise that the Euro has failed. How much youth employment and wage deflation do you need TJ before you accept facts. And you pretend to be LW and yet accept such social deprivation. Very odd.
Again do some reading - as you claim you do - start with Varoufakis' account. It's very good and he is a leftie too, albeit a well educated one (not an oxymoron)
This isnt wishywasy yS stuff this is real people's lives that have been devastated not the pretend oppression that scots like to pretend they have suffered.
Spain, Italy ( don't know about Greece) have always had high unemployment, long before the Euro. And they don't trust their banks either. Cash is king. It wasn't that long ago that Italians were first investors in London property market. They have money, just not as visible as in the UK.
Shall we stick to the point - how the fixed exchange rate forced these economies into massive wage deflation and appalling levels of unemployment. How is this anything other than a failure?
I'm not arguing that euro is a success of not, but those countries had issues before the Euro .
They did and they got worse.
It was and is a failed experiment.
meanwhile in other news Karma is a bitch
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37688046 ]Ryanair cuts profit as pound falls......[/url]
THM - I've always liked the concept of the Euro, but I agree not so good in practice. It was never really a single centrally controlled monetary and financial system so it was always going to be difficult.
However, for a poor nation Italy is remarkably rich. The contrast with Germany is interesting, with Germany a richer state but a poorer population relatively speaking, and overall estimates suggest that Italy may be richer overall. Some of that unemployment is very very real, but some may be convenient.
Now one might argue that a larger state (Germany) and better wealth distribution (also Germany) is good, but I'll leave it for you to do that THM.
...and inflationary pressures re-emerge (albeit still below target)
sorry igm you have lost me - Germany GDP per cap is > Italy's so not sure what you mean
Who is saying that Italy is poor anyway?
Lots of work (and GDP) not through the books allegedly. Tax not paid. Apparently unemployed. Wealth held quietly. Allegedly.
And I would agree having lived there for a bit, Italy is not a poor country.
Agreed its not. So back to the topic in question...
Net wealth of Italy per capita 10% higher than Germany.
I'm not challenging you GDP view.
Admittedly 2011, and gloriously lacking in currency, but Wikipedia gives personal wealth as follows.
The table below lists the 34 OECD countries' financial net wealth per adult in PPP.[1][not in citation given] The net average wealth is calculated by subtracting the debt from the mean wealth. Household financial wealth is the total value of a household’s financial worth, or the sum of their overall financial assets minus liabilities. Financial wealth takes into account: savings, monetary gold, currency and deposits, stocks, securities and loans. Unlike nonfinancial assets, financial assets are liquid and can much more easily support consumption, as they are not tied to the value of one's home (part of nonfinancial assets). Note however, that financial assets include pension and life insurance reserves, which in many cases cannot be withdrawn at one's discretion, but rather are annuitized.
More information: Country/Territory, Net financial wealth ...
Country/Territory Net financial wealth
Australia 38,482
Austria 48,125
Belgium 78,368
Canada 63,261
Chile 18,141
Czech Republic 17,262
Denmark 39,951
Estonia 7,843
Finland 20,190
France 47,668
Germany 49,484
Greece 14,004
Hungary 13,652
Iceland 43,045
Ireland 28,099
Israel 55,932
Italy 54,147
Japan 85,309
Luxembourg 57,159
Mexico 10,449
Netherlands 71,063
New Zealand 7,480
Norway 8,365
Poland 10,406
Portugal 29,640
Slovakia 9,651
Slovenia 18,912
South Korea 28,290
Spain 23,120
Sweden 55,301
Switzerland 100,812
Turkey 3,317
United Kingdom 60,065
United States 132,822
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/oct/18/uk-inflation-rises-near-two-year-high-consumer-price-index ]Well that didn't take long.[/url]
I guess all idiots who voted for this madness are about to find out how much their protest vote is going to cost them.
That's the price you pay for hatred.
The question was far too important to be put to people who really had no idea of the consequences.
A capital punishment referendum would probably pass,as would lopping people's hands off for theft.
.
[url= http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetarypolicy/Pages/framework/framework.aspx ]The current BoE target for inflation is 2%[/url], so a rise to 1% isn't going to be considered a major issue.
Though this does seem to be "[url= http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/2006/economics/cost-push-inflation-2/ ]Cost Push Inflation[/url]" which apparently some consider bad (I'm out my depth there).
Food prices went slightly down in September, but up in October.
That will make next set of figures higher.
meanwhile in other news Karma is a bitch
Yup an Irish company announcing a fall in projected profits as its UK business becomes less profitable due to a fall in the pound. Now do you see why Michael Ryan was for Remain ?
Curious inflation figures today - year on year goods 0.6% cheaper but services 2.6% more expensive
Food prices went slightly down in September, but up in October.
That will make next set of figures higher.
Inflation target is 2%. We should judge impact once we have left the EU in 2020 and beyond, now we are still restricted by EU trade barriers
You mean o'leary? The man wanting to to fly people back to the UK to vote out?
So the economy tanking is a good thing?
If it had improved would you be worried?
You mean o'leary? The man wanting to to fly people back to the UK to vote out?
Pretty sure O'Leary was in the Remain camp:
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[img] 
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We should judge impact once we have left the EU in 2020 and beyond
just 14 years of inflation, uncertainty and underinvestment to go then,
[img] 
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We should judge impact once we have left the EU in 2020 and beyond, now we are still restricted by EU trade barriers
Puts hand in flame / jumps off cliff and judges afterwards if it hurts.
And if the impact was bad Jamba? What then? You can't make it right.
That's what I meant by Brexit becoming like a religion - you only find out if paradise exists after you die.
Of course it is good news for Jambalaya. Poor people struggling is the aim of any good Tory.
Inflation target is 2%
Looks set to break that: [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37688593 ]BBC[/url]
"Economists have predicted that prices will rise further, particularly when the fall in the pound makes food and clothing more expensive.
Howard Archer, chief economist at IHS Global Insight, said: "Consumer price inflation was actually prevented from climbing higher still in September by a dip in food prices, but that looks certain to imminently come to an abrupt end and turn around as a factor."
Others said the UK was on course to exceed the Bank of England's target of a 2% inflation rate next year.
Ben Brettell, senior economist at Hargreaves Lansdown, said: "Inflation looks certain to rise further over the coming months, and could easily exceed the 2% target in 2017."
TOP WORK CHAPS.
WTF? You can't wishlist a pre-release book in Amazon? **** brexit man.
Irish company (Ryan Air) profits down, UK company (Burberry) sales up strongly (30% 🙂 ) on increased Tourist demand as a result of lower £
Result !!
Irish company (Ryan Air) profits down, UK company (Burberry) sales up strongly (30% ) on increased Tourist demand as a result of lower £Result !!
Personally I think we should judge impact once we have left the EU in 2020 and beyond 😀
Actually Burberry share price went down this morning as results not as good as expected.
to be fair, burberry is **** horrible !
Rich people will be ok
Poor people will be screwed.
The fact that many of them didn't see this still astounds me.
The fact that many of them didn't see this still astounds me.
It was project fear though wasn't it? Unpatriotic experts doing our great country down and being all doom and gloom. I hope the flag-waving was worth it. It's going to come at quite a cost.
Just wait til they realise this is not what they signed up for, then they'll look at the tories and UKIP and point the finger of blame. It's the only possible good thing that could come out of this.
The fact that many of them didn't see this still astounds me.
Blinded by the promise of a Brexit Lottery win of £350m a week they all thought they were going to get!
"Promise"?
Sorry, I meant BARE FACED LIE.
Blinded by the promise of a Brexit Lottery win of £350m a week they all thought they were going to get!"Promise"?
Sorry, I meant BARE FACED LIE.
I saw an article yesterday (can't remember where, may even have been shared on FB...) which said that the 20% devaluing of sterling has cost Britain £700bn of purchasing power since the referendum.
Puts that £350 million into context a bit doesn't it?
Jeremy Vine actually thanking UKIP for their good work
The toad
Brexit hasn't happened yet though. We're still in the EU, we still have all the positives and negatives of that. yes the pound has, frankly, tanked but we are in no worse position as a country. Yet. Once we trigger article 50 then watch what happens. Its easy to sell a 'promise' (or a lie, you decide), much harder to defend the status quo when it's not 'right'
As an employer (of lots, 20,000+) the impact of Article 50 scares me to the core. These are people that need jobs to pay for their families.
tpbiker - MemberRich people will be ok
Poor people will be screwed.
The fact that many of them didn't see this still astounds me.
let's not forget that many people in this country are already screwed, and Westminster doesn't give a ****.
The EU referendum was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for many people to cast a vote that would actually get counted, [i]and[/i] gave them a choice between 'more of the same' or 'something else'.
i'm not astounded that millions of people, who've been thoroughly buggered by government policy for the last ... 40 years, chose 'something else'.
i *am* astounded that millions of people, who've been thoroughly buggered by government policy for the last ... 40 years, chose 'more of the same'...
I would just like to see a plan with maybe some sort of ROI against it? NZcol is right this will cost jobs in the short to medium term even if the Brexiteers cunning plan succeeds- anecdotal evidence from me wandering around public and private sector (housing groups NHS etc) There is a lot of quiet job cutting going on.
Also I think there are a lot of people who have been made redundant or finished who never register as unemployed
[IMG] 
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The EU referendum was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for many people to cast a vote that would actually get counted, and gave them a choice between 'more of the same' or 'something else'.
That's where Strictly comes in handy - so folk can vote for something without actually doing any real damage.
i'm not astounded that millions of people, who've been thoroughly buggered by government policy for the last ... 40 years, chose 'something else'.i *am* astounded that millions of people, who've been thoroughly buggered by government policy for the last ... 40 years, chose 'more of the same'...
Well, "something else" is now revealed to be "no job with Nissan". Outstanding result, guys.
Our business rates have just gone up £100 a month. I'm thinking of putting up a poster in my shop saying "We send £300 a month to Sutton, let's spend it in Cheam"
Then I'll stop paying rates and get our local Tory Out mp to come and support us.
i *am* astounded that millions of people, who've been thoroughly buggered by government policy for the last ... 40 years, chose 'more of the same'...
Probably because those of us in that category were savvy enough to realise that the vote wasn't a binary choice about sticking it to the man, but about an irreversible seismic change in the UK's economic, political, and cultural participation with our nearest neighbours, involving the removal of long held rights of free movement, a likely economic catastrophe which would make us all poorer, an increase in xenophobia and other related negative social phenomena, and potentially the destabilisation of a continent which has enjoyed decades of peace and security after spending the previous few centuries perpetually at war with each other. I guess the other lot didn't bother thinking about that though 🙄
Can we all join a pro eu group as all we are doing on here is arguing against 3 people.
It's the rest of the **** wits in this country we need to educate.
Yeah but it's cathartic, zippy - and those 3 do post regularly enough to remind us what idiots they are
Brexiters arent the kind of people that care about science and stuff like that
"European Union money accounted for 40 percent of funding for cancer research in Britain over the last decade, according to Digital Science, a consulting firm based in London. In nanotechnology research, that figure is 62 percent ... Those resources have plugged the gap in falling British government funding, adjusted for inflation, and low levels of investment from Britain’s private sector."
@ aracer
I'm not sure - due to this thread I installed the greasemonkey script and added just two users to it. Not that I mind being challenged or asked to think in a different way but when someone does a gish-gallop then refuses to respond to polite (or not so polite) requests to back up his/her statements and the other just appears to come from another planet it was actually doing my head in. I'm here for fun, not for stress!
Hmm.
Seems even the Gov don't think referendums should be legal binding....
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-senior-conservative-mps-seize-on-a-forgotten-government-pledge-to-let-parliament-decide-the-a7366316.html ]Indy[/url]
so the government say parliament will probably get to vote on A50 ratification
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/18/parliament-very-likely-to-be-asked-to-agree-brexit-deal
what does that mean?
will there be an option - hard (WTO) or soft (Norway), how will they vote??
most MPs are sensible enough to want to keep us in the single market (I know there are plenty of barking mad Fox, Leadsome, davies etc) the tabloids will have a hard on for banning all foreign folk natch, but even they wouldnt want to totally trash the economy?
what if they cant get anything through? do we just default to WTO?
if only anyone knew what brexit actually meant !!
kimbers - Member
Brexiters arent the kind of people that care about science and stuff like that"European Union money accounted for 40 percent of funding for cancer research in Britain over the last decade, according to Digital Science, a consulting firm based in London. In nanotechnology research, that figure is 62 percent ... Those resources have plugged the gap in falling British government funding, adjusted for inflation, and low levels of investment from Britain’s private sector."
Yeah, but we've had enough of experts.
Darkside I think you'll find that's our own money back less a 45% haircut. Over last 10 years the UK and Germany are the only countries to make net positive contributions to the EU, we put in more than we got back
@mrleb we know the Referendum was advisory, the Scots got a legal binding one though
Rich people will be okPoor people will be screwed.
The fact that many of them didn't see this still astounds me.
This is exactly what the EU has delivered for the past 40 years, this is why Sunderland and large parts of Wales etc voted Leave so strongly - they absolutely saw what the EU delivered.
As for "poor people will be screwed" why not ask the Greeks what the EU has delivered for them ?
As for "poor people will be screwed" why not ask the Greeks what the EU has delivered for them ?
That's disingenuous.
The Greeks have to bear some fault themselves for having such a corrupt tax system which the majority were happy to go along with it seems..
@mrleb we know the Referendum was advisory, the Scots got a legal binding one though
Perhaps you should tell Theresa that as she doesn't seem to agree with you!
Yes, I'm sure the people of Sunderland put together a reasoned synopsis of the pros and cons of brexit before casting their votes.
When they had to put an X in the box I'm sure they wondered why they were being asked to sign their names.
Other parts of the nation can also feel my disdain.
It's hardly a protest vote when you vote to get rid of the only opposition the tories have.
leave it people
he's not worth it
just engage with thet other people in the thread instead
Over last 10 years the UK and Germany are the only countries to make net positive contributions to the EU, we put in more than we got back
And you fail to understand the huge benefits that EU collaboration has brought to science in the UK and the UK has to the EU, y know, acting as a society for the greater good, rather just selfish little englanderism of Brexit
This is exactly what the EU has delivered for the past 40 years, this is why Sunderland and large parts of Wales etc voted Leave so strongly
Yes the reason that there are areas of the [s]5th[/s] 6th richest country in the world where people are dependent on food banks, stuck in 0 hrs contracts. with high levels of poverty, poor education, bourne the brunt of cuts to social services and council funding is the fault of the EU ? 🙄
Do you ever read back what you've just said and get really embarrassed ?
I'm fairly sure that jamby you argued strongly in favour of the EU imposing austerity on the Greeks a few years back too, can I be arsed to google it tho?
The more this facade goes on, the more supportive I become of a call for Treason of all who voted Brexit. Also for self serving immature morons who support Brexit.
I'm still confused as to why all those who voted Leave, haven't actually left yet, but I guess they're all too moronic to realise we'd like them to move to a county that would like to have them. North Korea looks particularly welcoming, and would fit in with Brexiters ideals too.
It becomes more a case of not When the Nasty Party leave government, but more a case how much damage they inflict on intelligent well mannered folks of this county before they leave parliament.
Not often I agree with Alister Campbell, but he's speaking and acting a lot of sense lately.
Puts hand in flame / jumps off cliff and judges afterwards if it hurts.And if the impact was bad Jamba? What then? You can't make it right.
That's what I meant by Brexit becoming like a religion - you only find out if paradise exists after you die.
Your scenario sounds like staying in the EU to me. It depends upon your view of the future and your interpretation of the past and present.
As for "rich" and "Tory" jibes on here it's a cross party issue and one on which ernie_lynch was firmly Leave. Here is LeftLeave's statement on the result - in full for balance
[b]The Leave vote is above all else a rejection of the entire political establishment by millions of working class people who have been left to suffer austerity for decades with few defenders among the mainstream parties.[/b]This is now a social crisis of the first order.[b] Every institution of the British establishment backed Remain[/b]. The Tory party, despite professions of unity, is beginning an internal war. ‘It’s a hammer blow to Cameron’, reported the BBC this morning. Osborne is already talked of in the past tense.
This could have been a great Labour crusade if it had put itself at the head of this working class revolt but the Blairites forced Jeremy Corbyn to abandon his long held opposition to the EU.
This has left the right to claim a victory which is not in truth theirs. Nearly 17 million people voted Leave, but only 3.8 million voted UKIP at the last election. But it is up to the left to now put itself squarely at the centre of opposition to the Tories and the right.
If you don’t want the racists to be the face of today’s result, then don’t let them. There is a significant proportion of those who voted Leave that did so on the basis of opposing the austerity and the neoliberal order that has directly impacted their lives and is part and parcel of the EU. Don’t be so quick to paint millions of people with the same brush as Farage.
Many on the left voted Remain for understandable reasons in a very divisive referendum. It is now time to unite around the most elementary demands that millions of working people will readily support.
The ONLY thing the left can do now, is to rally around this result and take the fight to the Tories.
End austerity now!
Cameron must resign!
General election now!
No more ‘Fortress Europe’ – equality for migrant workers!
I'm fairly sure that jamby you argued strongly in favour of the EU imposing austerity on the Greeks a few years back too, can I be arsed to google it tho?
Yes I did as the Greeks wished to Remain in the euro so that was the only option. What would have been best for the Greeks would have been to 1) never have joined or 2) having abused the debt limits re-established the Drachma
acting as a society for the greater good, rather just selfish little englanderism of Brexit
To describe the anti-democratic, corrupt and dangerously incompetent EU as for the greater good is .. well ludicrous. A vote for Leave was a vote for Internationalism and the end to the discriminatory protectionism of the EU. A vote for the future and not for the past to which Europe clings. Time for refocus away from the Economic time-bomb that is the EU
@mrleb we know the Referendum was advisory, the Scots got a legal binding one though
Yes, we knew the referendum was advisory.
But I for one did not know that in 2010 the government explicitly stated that:
[i][b]"Under the UK's constitutional arrangements, [u]Parliament must be responsible[/u] for deciding whether or not to take action in response to a referendum result."[/b][/i]
Did you?
And yet here they are, refusing parliament a vote on the matter.
A vote for Leave was a vote for Internationalism and the end to the discriminatory protectionism of the EU.
Weren't you just gloating that an English company was posting better profits than an Irish one ?!?
We all know that the leave vote was an attempt to turn back the clock to the romatacised fantasy of Britannia ruling the waves making Britain Great again and all that jingoistic nonsense
"Under the UK's constitutional arrangements, Parliament must be responsible for deciding whether or not to take action in response to a referendum result."
That is policy though, not law.
There's a case at the high court at the moment to try and rule on that, although its getting surprisingly little publicity considering the magnitude of the case, not just for article 50, but whether a government, without the consent of parliament has the right to make changes that result in the revocation of people's rights.
Whoever loses will take appeal to the supreme court, but apparently there shoule be a rulling in December.
[url= https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-legal-challenge-live-theresa-may-article-50-vote-eu-uk-high-court-latest-a7365101.html%3famp?client=ms-opera-mobile ]https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-legal-challenge-live-theresa-may-article-50-vote-eu-uk-high-court-latest-a7365101.html%3famp?client=ms-opera-mobile[/url]
Weren't you just gloating that an English company was posting better profits than an Irish one ?!?
I think it's been quite succinctly proved that Jamba's is a rather forgetful sort..
The Leave vote is above all else a rejection of the entire political establishment.
> rolls around on floor laughing <
so should we have a General election then ?
I though you were agaisnt it .
Unfortunately for the "Working Class" their problems are caused by manufacturing moving to the Far East where labour costs are much cheaper; no amount of well intentioned action on the part of politicians will reverse that. The political elite fully deserve criticism for achieving so little in the way of wealth redistribution post Thatcher, however, you have to be careful what you wish for....attempts to replace the political elite with ordinary folk over the last century have not exactly been successful; I'm thinking the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, China, North Korea etc.
A vote for Leave was a vote for Internationalism
😆
Theresa May's served up the ultimate exemplar of just how inward facing and parochial Brexit is, with this divisive, nationalistic soundbite
[b]If you believe you are a citizen of the world, you are a citizen of nowhere[/b]
that will surely be her and the UK's epitath
To describe the anti-democratic, corrupt and dangerously incompetent EU as for the greater good is .. well ludicrous.
Hold on.
There is a big difference between the concept of something and the implementation.
Even if the current EU is not functioning well, that does absolutely NOT mean that the idea of greater co-operation is a bad one. Simply walking out is not the solution.
When the first cavepeople made square wheels, did they give up on the whole idea? When the first rockets blew up on the launchpad did they give up? Of course not.
So the fact that you did want to give up means you don't think co-operation is worth working for. So in other words, you've pre-decided an isolationist point of view and are using the current state of the EU as justification.
As with almost all people (me included) your ideas are already predetermined and you cherry pick your points to back it up. The difference between you and me though is that at least I'm aware of it and try not to do it.
Your scenario sounds like staying in the EU to me. It depends upon your view of the future and your interpretation of the past and present.
If that is political bullshiting then fair enough.
If you believe that though, you are a fool.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-legal-challenge-live-latest-article-50-eu-theresa-may-uk-high-court-hearing-a7367126.html
Bombshell, if we end up with a vote.
Nuclear bombshell if they vote it down!
General Election ooh.. March sometime?
Has anyone broken down Brexit voters by constituency? As in, if every MP voted in parliament the way the majority of voters in their own constituency voted, would Brexit still win? It might not due to distributiuon of voters.
molgrips - Member
Has anyone broken down Brexit voters by constituency? As in, if every MP voted in parliament the way the majority of voters in their own constituency voted, would Brexit still win?
im petty sure they still do 🙁
I'm fairly sure the data is available molly - somebody was quoting the figures for the constituency of that rabid loon councillor with the treason petition yesterday.
[quote=jambalaya ]As for "rich" and "Tory" jibes on here it's a cross party issue and one on which ernie_lynch was firmly Leave. Here is LeftLeave's statement on the result - in full for balance
Yes, and has he been seen on here since the vote? I wonder how he and LeftLeave feel about the way the country is heading? I mean I'm way way to the right of them (I hate 2D politics descriptions, but it's the easiest shorthand for now) and I'm feeling pretty uncomfortable about it.