[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

"Damn the unpatriotic remoaners"

I actually find that quite concerning. It's the first step in blaming us when people start feeling the pinch and getting angry.

I wonder what they suggest doing about us? Re-education camps perhaps? Or just start publishing names of "remoaners" and let the lynch mobs do the rest?

That Daily Mail headline is mint, worth buying* one just for that, cut it out and frame it 🙂

*Actually I won't buy one, ever

And Redwood came across as even more unhinged than normal last night when pushed on our negotiating position

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37627308 ]going to need a lot of sangria to wash down this bitter pill[/url].

who saw that coming 😀

So Norway model it is then,

We took back control !!! 🙄

No,no,no,no,no!
The increase in trade from the Trump run USofA will pay for this many times over.
[s]I think[/s] I hope.

I don't think the government actually know what their negotiating position is, slowly painting themselves into a corner with a voice in the head saying "you know this is insane don't you, you know this is insane don't you"

Now there's a surprise, I'm sure it was all worth it.

We'll wake up in the shower and find JR isn't dead. Or something like that.

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/12/theresa-may-accepts-need-for-brexit-debate-in-parliament?CMP=fb_gu ]It seems this lady is for turning...[/url]

[img] [/img]

Not for turning indeed. Pesky Bremoaners.

[quote=zokes ]It seems this lady is for turning...

Interesting.

I reckon they'll do an about turn early next year

Super hardcore pro-brexit stance now

Commons debate/ legal challenge

"Look, our hand is forced, we need to re-think this"

At some point people will wake to the fact that any deal with have an element of contribution and free movement of people. These are red lines for the EU - imagine singing off on exemptions for one country. We might think we are special but we are not that special.

So we end up worse that where we started

Thats what faking control is all about. Madness

These are red lines for the EU - imagine singing off on exemptions for one country. We might think we are special but we are not that special.

But although this is a red line for the Commission and its officials it's not necessarily a red line for all of the countries / governments in Europe.

And therein is the nub of the issue - The Commission and the 5 x Presidents are not accountable to the countries / people of Europe and can pretty do as they want with no consequences.

Europe clearly has a number of deep seated social and economic problems that require responses. The Commission is not minded to really look at these or develop solutions / policy changes so we're just left with an increasingly febrile political discussion in many countries across Europe and a backstop threat of "you're either in or out - take it or leave it but we're not changing policy" from the Commission.

This isn't in anyone's interests and is the problem that needs solving first.

Nice message from the principle today,
shameful that its our own government that he's talking about!

QMUL is committed to the notion that human knowledge and its pursuit should know no national boundaries. Accordingly we are privileged to welcome to the QMUL community staff and students of many nationalities and their contributions are greatly valued. Recent reports from another institution of restrictions placed by a contractor on the nationalities of academics who may be involved in fulfilment of a contract to provide policy advice have understandably – and quite rightly – caused concern. While we now understand that these reports were based on a misunderstanding, it is important to take this opportunity to state that QMUL would accept no such stipulations. Subject only to justifiable security clearance requirements in isolated instances (applied equally to all nationalities), we will not accept research or contract funding that restricts academic involvement on any basis except expertise and experience. If any colleagues are, or become, aware of any proposals to impose requirements that restrict academic freedom in this way, then I should be grateful if you would inform me directly

The Daily Mail says:

[img] [/img]

And even more damning:

[img] [/img]

One wonders what would happen if the Daily Mail Stoßtruppen discovered this cell of unpatriotic remoaning cyclists?

Popped up on my faceache feed.

Imagine if remain had won by the same margin and the government decided to go 'hard remain', Euro, schengen, driving on the rhs, metric distances, etc. People would go apeshit.

This sudden shift in Brexit scope is terrifying and is being driven at a political whim. It's not what business wants, it's not what the 48% of those that voted to remain wanted and this version of brexit is unlikely to be what a proportion of the 52% wanted either. So where has this obsession with at all costs sprung from, what it looks like is far more important than in or out.

No but we will be able to control the [s]darkies[/s] eastern europeans this time - thats what matters 😯

#someofmybestfriendsareforeigners
#fakecontrol

Which of these ladies did the Fexwits think they were getting rid off?
[img] [/img]

So Norway model it is then,

We took back control !!!

From what I remember Norway pays roughly 90% per person of what the UK currently pays after rebates and whatnot. Great deal if you ask me.

Although it might require us to join Schengen.

From what I remember Norway pays roughly 90% per person of what the UK currently pays after rebates and whatnot. Great deal if you ask me.

Either you don't understand the Norway deal or are being sarcastic. What we have now is way better than any deal we will make. At least now we have a say on what happens. As far as I know Norway get f-all say in anything to do with EU policy but still have to foot the bill.

And Norway as a country SHARE their wealth with its citizen. Can't see the UK doing that.

What we have now is way better than any[s] deal we will make[/s]thing brexit has to offer us

norway seems like best of a bad lot

Either you don't understand the Norway deal or are being sarcastic. What we have now is way better than any deal we will make.

+100

I wasn't being sarcastic.

Edit: OK fine, I was being sarcastic. A Norway deal would be idiotic but marginally less idiotic than leaving in the first place.

as i understand it to follow the Norway model EFTA have to agree to the UK joining EFTA, and Norway are sounding less than happy about that. So that leaves the Swiss model.

You mean the Swiss model that is currently in jeopardy because they had a referendum to limit immigration from the EU?

What does that leave, the North Korean model?

Just saw a most humourous facebook exchange:

Poster A: [shares anti-brexit article]
Poster B: Shut your moaning, if you don't like it why don't you move to f-ing Europe
Poster C: Err, last time I checked, I think Poster A does live in Europe??

😆

Just saw a most humourous facebook exchange:

Poster A: [shares anti-brexit article]
Poster B: Shut your moaning, if you don't like it why don't you move to f-ing Europe
Poster C: Err, last time I checked, I think Poster A does live in Europe??

[url= http://stv.tv/news/politics/307451-stephen-daisley-humza-yousaf-and-david-coburn-have-twitter-spat/ ]Any excuse to post this[/url]

I am citizen of the eu that is having my citizenship removed against my will. Can I seek protection of my rights from anyone in europe?

Another u turn as it Government will allow mp to debate the Brexit plans.
£ recovering a little bit.

as i understand it to follow the Norway model EFTA have to agree to the UK joining EFTA, and Norway are sounding less than happy about that.

Somewhat ironic given that the UK was a founding member of the EFTA in 1960 until we left in 1973 to join the EU. 😆

Maybe he got sick of people playing the man instead of the ball?

Sick of the bullying?

We played the ball a lot, to be fair.

Maybe he got sick of people playing the man instead of the ball?

Could be, could be. Although he only ever said he had the ball. We never actually saw any evidence that the ball existed.

Maybe there was a picture of a ball on the side of a bus? 😉

Maybe he's had an epiphany?

zippykona - Member

I am citizen of the eu that is having my citizenship removed against my will. Can I seek protection of my rights from anyone in europe?

If you think you are a citizen of europe, you are a citizen of nowhere. You don't know how citizenship works!

[img] [/img]
Like most europeans playing the ball is a speciality 😉 no need to play the man

Graham and 5thE +1

(Like religion) jamba-baiting is the one thing that seems exempt from normal rules here - apparently fair game?!?

I have to say I didn't see an awful lot of evidence of bullying.

I did see an awful lot of evidence of Jamba's repeatedly posting inaccuracies & downright falsehoods.

I then saw a lot of folks pulling him up on them & challenging him, to which Jamba would continue with the same lies & inaccuracies unrepentantly.

I don't call that bullying.

All a bit sad really as I'm sure if he stuck to the truth he'd have an awful lot more to contribute..

I heard he is painting a new bus.

Jamba's repeatedly posting inaccuracies & downright falsehoods

he reminds me of during the invasion of Iraq, when Tariq Aziz would be on the news, making statements like 'there are no americans on iraqi soil' while tanks and marines were running about behind him? that level of delusion.

Jesus he's been gone less than a day, believe it or not even Jamba probably has better things to do with his life than staying glued to this place.

[img] [/img]

😉

I do remember thinking that I probably wouldn't bother hanging around on a forum if everyone openly just referred to me as a liar.

Well that's one option. There is another.

i don't agree with him on almost anything, from politics to when to upgrade the OS on your Mac, but I do remember thinking that I probably wouldn't bother hanging around on a forum if everyone openly just referred to me as a liar.

Thing is, if you lie openly, unrepentently and constantly, then being repeatedly called a liar isn't bullying. It's statement of fact.

We need to work together to create happiness because majority of the people have voted to leave. We need to move on by grabbing the opportunitiy presented to all of us. The past is the past as in history.

People have to remember there is no pre-requisite for Govt to provide running commentaries of govt plan. Besides, Govt should not be desperate or needy to constantly provide news spin.

Let's work together to have a prosperous future.

Hip ! Hip !

[quote=GrahamS ]Maybe he got sick of people playing the man instead of the ball?

There was no ball to play there was just a person lying
We all spent years challenging his assertions with the actual facts but he neither listens nor cares and would continue to make things up. On this thread he said he never said £350m per week so someone posted it up and he still denied it 😯 what can you do when someone lies like that ? Fok give up and just say liar as he is beyond the realm of facts , reason and the rules of normal discourse. Its not opinions its just wrong, I may as well argue the world is flat and then get upset when folk call me a liar when I make shit up to support it

Eventually folk just gave up and called him a liar
Is he bullied or does he deserve it I neither know nor care but whilst he continues to make things up he will continue to be robustly challenged for it like this. Even THM in his defence said he talked baloney so amazingly played the man in his defence and critique of playing the man

(Like religion) jamba-baiting is the one thing that seems exempt from normal rules here - apparently fair game?!?

PS Have you considered being a good christian, turning the other cheek and forgiving folk their sins rather than whinge on about how it should be special and above criticisms because you believe in an unevidenced sky fairy and folk mock you for this view 🙄 You know what would Jesus do and do that rather than this. PPS what did he say about the rich again ?

Start a vegan thread I will get the same level of protection as a christian only I wont bleat on about how special my beliefs are that no one can challenge or ridicule them.
EVen the mods ignore your bleating on about this as its just not true its just you want special treatment

We need to work together to create happiness because majority of the people have voted to leave. We need to move on by grabbing the opportunitiy presented to all of us. The past is the past as in history.

Brexit isn't the past. It's very much the present. All that's happened is that there has been a non-binding referendum.

never mind that, i'll have one of what he's just had!

It's not even the present, it seems to be the future that our unelected PM has chosen, and she sounds like she's reneging on the tory manifesto committment to stay in the single market.

Junky: just calling it like I see it. Debating the issues and arguing the facts is one of the reasons we are all here. A [i]bit[/i] of [i]friendly[/i] banter and teasing is expected with that, and I think we are all grown up enough to accept that. But sometimes it oversteps the mark into straight up name-calling which is not cool (and I've been guilty of it myself on occasion).

People have to remember there is no pre-requisite for Govt to provide running commentaries of govt plan.

Likewise people have to remember that the Brexit vote doesn't give the government a free reign to just do whatever they want in the name of Brexit without even running in past their fellow MPs.

Nobody voted for a dictatorship.

Chewk I believe you are from another country and so have the option of returning there.
Most of us don't have the choice to live in another country and very soon that option is about to get even harder.
So we have to do what is best for OUR country, we aren't lucky enough to have a Plan B so have to overturn the racist majority.
I reassert that no one was really that bothered about the EU.
Foxes had marches,badgers had marches ,doctors had marches. Anti EU marches...none that I can recall.

Debating the issues and arguing the facts is one of the reasons we are all here.

But sometimes it oversteps the mark into straight up name-calling which is not cool (and I've been guilty of it myself on occasion).

I gave up a while ago in general and only do these meta bits as its futile to engage with him

I dont think you ever overstep the mark of civil debate. Not true for all of us, myself included.

Everyone else loving the irony of the mob that claimed they wanted to free us from unaccountable, remote, and anti-democratic technocrats, apparently answerable to no-one, now doing everything in their power to become unaccountable, remote, and anti-democratic technocrats, apparently answerable to no-one

It would be funny if it didn't have such a whiff of tin-pot dictatorship about it

Debating the issues and arguing the facts is one of the reasons we are all here. A bit of friendly banter and teasing is expected with that, and I think we are all grown up enough to accept that. But sometimes it oversteps the mark into straight up name-calling which is not cool

THIS^^^ If somebody doesn't listen to your opinion, the answer is not to bully / assassinate their character to teach them a lesson.

Junkyard, you really do post a lot of nonsense.

BruceWee - Member
Brexit isn't the past. It's very much the present. All that's happened is that there has been a non-binding referendum.

thecaptain - Member
It's not even the present, it seems to be the future that our unelected PM has chosen, and she sounds like she's reneging on the tory manifesto committment to stay in the single market.

GrahamS - Member
Likewise people have to remember that the Brexit vote doesn't give the government a free reign to just do whatever they want in the name of Brexit without even running in past their fellow MPs.

Nobody voted for a dictatorship.

zippykona - Member
Most of us don't have the choice to live in another country and very soon that option is about to get even harder.

So has Jamba flounced or been banned?

Chewk,what kind of hardship?
Stow away on the back of a lorry, paddle across the sea?
I quite like my current option of loading up my car and driving down to majorca.

Yes, it is binding. Absolutely.

It's not legally binding. It's advisory.

If somebody doesn't listen to your opinion, the answer is not to bully / assassinate their character to teach them a lesson.

The "opinion" bit is not the problem. The problem is making stuff up.

If we're having a discussion about football, we can have different opinions about which team is boring, attractive, dominated by foreign transfers etc., but if one participant supports their "opinion" by mentioning that Swansea City have won the Champions League ten years in a row, then there ceases to be a rational basis for discussion.

And if they do so over and over again, despite being directed to authoritative lists of Cup winners, then the other participants may get a bit frustrated.

Junkyard, you really do post a lot of nonsense.

If somebody doesn't listen to your opinion, the answer is not to bully / assassinate their character to teach them a lesson.

No one called Blair Bliar till he did his dossier for example.

as i said its not nice but it is NOT inaccurate....probably why you were rude and did not use facts in your rebuttal whilst getting upset about playing the man...irony overload

The people have voted with their democratic rights so MPs should simply accept their faith because their Masters (People & Democracy) have spoken.

Honestly you don't really know how the system is set up. You're not alone either so don't take this as an insult.

The UK is a [i]representative[/i] democracy. That means that you vote for an MP and they join in parliament and it's parliament that rules. Not us.

And the referendum was explicitly stated as only advisory.

because you believe in an unevidenced sky fairy and folk mock you for this view

Once again descends within seconds to the depths of childish playground insults. It says a lot about you that you can't even mention religion without flinging the usual insults about.

Amusing that this came at the end of an appeal to be nicer to folk and not play the man and you chose to shoot the messenger and ignore the message completely.

Do you keep that one on standby perchance? Because you said near enough the same thing the last time I called you out for being a tit. Not playing the man and calling someone out are not mutually exclusive things. I'm quite happy to debate any point someone throws out there but the moment they start flinging insults about then I think it's fair enough to call them out on it [b]whether you agree with their point or not[/b].

So has Jamba flounced or been banned?

AFAIK he's just not been on since yesterday which is apparently Big News.

And the referendum was explicitly stated as only advisory.

As I recall from reading it, the legislation that brought the EU membership referendum into being was gloriously silent on the standing of the result - but it certainly didn't say a majority in favour of leaving means we will leave, so 'advisory' is as good a description as any.

Again my recollection is that the Scots independence referendum was very clear about what would happen.

On Jamba - I think he gets a little muddled in his facts sometimes, sometimes clutches at straws for his arguments , and I think he occasionally gets angry and rattles off a response that he'd have been better to think about for a bit (I tend to feel his level of spelling reflects that), but overall he adds a little colour to proceedings. You could lay a lot of those comments at a few doors and I suspect also he is a product of his upbringing / environment to a large degree - aren't we all?

Occasionally of course I even agree with him - but rarely. I would if he's ever round my way be have to meet him for a beer and argue the toss.

the moment they start flinging insults about then I think it's fair enough to call them out on it

Clearly my posting style annoys some - I have the e-mails to prove it- and clearly it annoys others to the point they dont like or respect me. If i ever start arguing i am always polite and considered in my opinions [ or i dont deserve some of what gets dished back to me] to others please feel free to point out my opinion is not evidence based

On Jamba - I think he gets a little muddled in his facts sometimes

And the understatement of the year award goes to....

I dont think you ever overstep the mark of civil debate.

That's very kind of you to say Junkyard. My wife used to read my posts and tell me she couldn't understand why I was such an arsehole online. Since then I always try to re-read what I type in her voice 😀

So has Jamba flounced or been banned?

Neither as far as I'm aware, he just hasn't commented on this thread for a few hours. 😀

Anyways, trying to drag this back on track...

Govt have to bow to the will of the people and Not even MPs can sabotage the democratic rights of the people. MPs have NO power to over rule and to oppose people's will. The people have voted with their democratic rights so MPs should simply accept their faith because their Masters (People & Democracy) have spoken.

So you'd put no limits or oversight at all on what the government can do to enact this "will of the people"?

Say, for extremis sake, that they decide to round up all foreigners and place them into internment camps where they would be held until they could be processed and deported. That'd be fine with you? Because Brexit?

The only question on the referendum was [i]"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"[/i]

There was nothing on there about [i]how[/i] we leave. Nothing about freedom of movement, reciprocal healthcare, visas, free trade, EU funding, leaving the ECHR, denying hospital treatment, listing foreign workers, and all the other details that must now be debated and talked about.

And it would be hugely undemocratic to allow all those decisions, which massively shape our post-Brexit future and the laws of this land, to be made behind closed doors without even being debated in parliament.

[img] [/img]

My wife used to read my posts

TBH i think [s]we all [/s]many of us debate in a more robust manner on here than ofline
For example three of my closest friends are devoutly religious and a friend from school now teaches RE. I am not as rude to religious folk in the real world as I am on here but they all know how strong my views are but that I respect their choice.

I think many of debate on here in a manner we would not elsewhere.
I also think a lot of my sarcasm and tonugue in cheek points get lost in the muddle of all this

ANyway enough navel gazing for me

Well said Graham

I am not as rude to religious folk in the real world as I am on here

why not?

Well, he is only about five foot tall 😉

I am not as rude to religious folk in the real world as I am on here

why not?

Being rude isn't the same as persistent [attempts at] bullying the same person though. People who do it really make it clear what kind of person they are.

[img] [/img]

Junkyard - lazarus

I am not as rude to religious folk in the real world as I am on here

This is the real world, you're not talking to spambots. Except Chewkw obviously. Why be rude to real people online but not in person? Pretty poor imo.

Its still not bullying IMHO but this is getting close
Briefly - why not - who knows but folk are not as rude to me about veganism in the real world either so I am assuming many folk do it.
They are not unaware of my views and they do know I think it is all nonsense. I would be as forthright with non religious friends.In the real world I will see them so why offend them. this is less of a concern online.

Pretty poor imo

Being rude isn't the same as persistent [attempts at] bullying the same person though. People who do it really make it clear what kind of person they are.

In jamby's case, I'm afraid his modus operandi of deliberately misrepresenting the truth and being totally blind to evidence generally resulted in a spade being called a spade. I really don't think that's bullying.

the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.
~ Hermann Göring

🙁

You and GrahamS seems the rare exceptions that everyone seems to like even if they dont always agree with you.

On the other hand, people don't like me even when they do agree with me...