I don't object to the WA personally. I'd rather remain, but if we are going to leave it gets the job started. What I do object to is the refusal to consider the customs union and singlemarket which is ruled out in the political declaration by the highlighting that the UK wont accept freedom of movement.
“Thank you Mr MP, please stay in the studio whilst we fact check everything you’ve said – we’ll come back to you after this next piece on puppies.”
Or you could have interviewers who knew what they were talking about in the first place...
Lots of talk on here about the middle ground and being sensisble so please enlighten me what do you object to in it?
Simply put: it pleases no-one. It looks on paper to be a compromise but it's not. It gains us absolutely nothing, we'll be in broadly the same place we are now (if we're lucky) only we will no longer have a seat at the table - we will be rule takers rather than rule makers. So much for "taking back control," hey? Remainers don't want it (obvs) and leavers don't want it either.
This is in part why May's deal keeps getting rejected, I suspect. Everyone looks at it and goes "what's the point?" We will at best be slightly worse off than we are now. This is the circle which cannot be squared however you look at it.
We (our government) currently has the ultimate say over trade agreements we sign up to. This Withdrawal Agreement says that we give up that say, for an indefinite amount of time. Goodbye control…
If all you care about is fewer EEA people wanting, and being able, to come here… or just want them to have second class status once they are here… it's a good Agreement for you. No gains for anyone else… it puts us in a worse position as regards absolutely anything and everything I can think of.
Out of interest what parts of the EU/UK Withdrawal Agreement to folk on here object to?
I'm a remainer which I think sums up what I object to.
Just the general lowering of living standards / economy / all round worsening of international standing.
Ireland, that has potential to go all kinds of pear shaped when the backstop expires.
Trade with EU area VAT will knacker it, everywhere else we won't be under EU trade agreements and will have to hammer out agreements with far less clout so they aren't going to be as good.
Movement, last year I was considering going contracting in europe, now I'm not, lots of others will think the same.
Farming will be, I think, hit hard by exit from CAP, we'll have less cash for subsidy and see fast rising food prices.
Probably other stuff, mainly that whatever WA we have we'll be turning over the US and going "please" and they'll say "bend over".
Some of those points may be a little naive, I accept.
Mays deal really is the worst of all worlds (for all the reasons listed above) and renders the whole exercise completely and utterly pointless
Well... theres the blue passports, I suppose....
ION, this chap has done some interesting analysis on the petition.
https://twitter.com/Richard_Ampere/status/1110319272805519360
I can't believe I'm actually defending May's deal or Brexit for that matter...
What I do object to is the refusal to consider the customs union and singlemarket which is ruled out in the political declaration by the highlighting that the UK wont accept freedom of movement.
You can have a custom's union without free movement.
Theresa May will never agree to a custom's union.... but I suspect that is what we will have in anything but name post negotiation.
We (our government) currently has the ultimate say over trade agreements we sign up to. This Withdrawal Agreement says that we give up that say, for an indefinite amount of time.
Do we? Or until an agreement is reached.
Because EVERYTHING about the withdrawal agreement affects me, people I'm close to and resolves nothing, it merely ensures that we're locked into decades of negotiation with our closest neighbours for what will invariably be a worse deal that what we have.
We cannot have different regulations, different standards to the closest trading bloc and expect an open border. That's not how international trade works.
Make no mistake, May's so called "deal" (which is merely a withdrawal agreement) is designed to give one political party breathing space to plaster over the cracks of division and to mitigate the inevitable economic pain which would otherwise consign the bastards to the electoral doldrums for a generation. Sorry, but my attitude is basically k 'em, especially those who've decided that our futures are worth throwing under their red bus with b**s printed on the side. I want the Conservative Party to end up suffering the pain they want to inflict upon the rest of us for ideological reasons, nothing less will do.
I believe the appropriate saying is "Hoist on his own petard". Couldn't happen to a nicer bloke.
Who is he? This analysis is what I would expect the govt to be doing rather than sticking its thick Brexity fingers in its ears.
We (our government) currently has the ultimate say over trade agreements we sign up to. This Withdrawal Agreement says that we give up that say, for an indefinite amount of time.
Do we? Or until an agreement is reached.
Okay, let's do "length of trade agreement negotiations" sweepstake … I'll take "9 years" please, so 2028. That's nine years without the control we currently have. To gain what? A worse deal than we have in Europe now, but with the freedom to strike deals with USA & China? In the 2030s, If we're lucky? Maybe never? Pick your own dates… but I think me saying "indefinite" is fair.
We cannot have different regulations, different standards to the closest trading bloc and expect an open border. That’s not how international trade works.
Indeed. And once we're out, the free-marketeers will not so much begin a race to the bottom on rights and regulations as to put them into freefall. If you want an idea of where they truly want to take us then look to the 'Export Processing Zones' of Burma. Thats what their 'Freeport' idea amounts too. Tax and regulation-free enclaves.
They want to turn us into a mix between a tax haven for the rich and a sweatshop for the rest of us. It goes without saying that that model doesn't allow for a welfare state, NHS or anything else deemed 'luxuries' for the proles
They want to turn us into a mix between a tax haven for the rich and a sweatshop for the rest of us. It goes without saying that that model doesn’t allow for a welfare state, NHS or anything else deemed ‘luxuries’ for the proles
Not read it all but I'm sure some Labour wag ,even "6th form grandad" would have picked up the abolition of the welfare state if it was mentioned in the WA.Try reigning in your usual over the top inaccurate ,hyperbole and just quote a para reference in the document.
Out of interest what parts of the EU/UK Withdrawal Agreement to folk on here object to?
Clearly those who wish to remain object to leaving full stop.The Hard Line Brexiteers want to exit on WTO terms and the DUP (and others) don’t like the backstop.A quick Google doesn’t throw up anything specicifically that Labour object to though I recall they want to maintain worker’s and environmental rights.Lots of talk on here about the middle ground and being sensisble so please enlighten me what do you object to in it?
I think "remainers just want to remain" is a bit dismissive as any aspect of the deal that removes rights and freedoms is a negative.
Specifically I would rather we were at the head of the EU, with absolute veto power and lots of control within our largest trading partner, if you looking a specific failings of the 'deal' then end of freedom of movement and cross-boarder services.
I think “remainers just want to remain” is a bit dismissive
I don't want to "just remain," you're right, it's dismissive.
There's a lot of work we could do, both domestically and within the EU, to improve things and to attempt to address the concerns of the electorate which drove them to vote to leave in the first place. I don't want to "just" do anything, I want us to sort our shit out and being a prominent and influential member of the EU gives us the strongest foundations to make a start on doing that.
At the risk of repeating myself: reform, not remain.
What PJM, kelvin, binners said.
edit: and what cougar said.
We really are not better off on our own. We are better off joining forces with our nearest neighbours.
Perhaps what we have with the EU isn't right, but we won't change it from the outside, and we will still have to deal with it, but on the outside we'll have zero influence, none, squat, nada. If we're in it, we might be able to change it. As pointed out we have the third largest (?) block of MEPs.
Brexit is just beyond stupid. It is cutting off our own nose to spite europe, and europe will simply say "chumps". They won't be spited.
I confess thinking it is about time we put all the Leave voters telephone sanitisers on the B ark (after the ERG get the bathtub)
John Healey was on one of the political shows last week saying Labour were happy with the WA, just the PD which they object to, which does open the prospect of developing a realistic version of Labour's policy, voting through the WA so we leave, and then having a referendum on the two alternative exit routes.
Okay, let’s do “length of trade agreement negotiations” sweepstake … I’ll take “9 years” please, so 2028. That’s nine years without the control we currently have. To gain what? A worse deal than we have in Europe now, but with the freedom to strike deals with USA & China? In the 2030s, If we’re lucky? Maybe never? Pick your own dates… but I think me saying “indefinite” is fair
I agree bureaucracies and intransigent participants don't make for a speedy process as we can all see however alignment with current and future rules-all trading partners have to comply with the receipient's trading partners rules to export anyway.A customs union or the various other options as labour propose would also put us in the same position surely?
voting through the WA so we leave
I understand that is specifically forbidden in some legislation or other (according to someone who sounded authoritative on Twitter)
As pointed out we have the third largest (?) block of MEPs.
Joint third, with Italy (73). France has 74, Germany has 90-odd.
I confess thinking it is about time we put all the Leave voters telephone sanitisers on the B ark
And risk being wiped out by a virulent disease contracted by dirty telephones?
Yes Mefty, the Labour leadership are asking for the same as May now, but with some words added that make it look like they've saved lots of jobs.
I agree bureaucracies and intransigent participants don’t make for a speedy process
It's not just that. The thing about trade deals that most people miss is, they are insanely complicated. You don't just rock up to the US, go "fancy a trade deal? Yes? Cool. Pub, then?" The devil, as is often the case, is in the detail.
according to someone who sounded authoritative on Twitter
Please see if you can find it, would be very interested to see it. Even if it is, then if it was a way out of the impasse I am sure a way could be found to get it to work.
Nick, my point was, we currently have control of our trade policy (via EU membership), whereas the all UK Customs Area in the backstop would cede control of our trade policy to the rEU 'till it is replaced. That could be years. And years. And years. And there are some that say there is a risk that it will never happen. You can see why that brings about strong opposition from people of all positions.
I think he has a point
Tell you one thing: the next Adam Curtis documentary is going to be a ****ing doozy.
You can see why that brings about strong opposition from people of all positions.
But not from people who purport to support a permanent customs union.
<deleted, too slow>
Why? I wouldn't support us being in the EU but with no role for our government in the decisions made, either. Or without MEPs.
Please see if you can find it, would be very interested to see it.
Do your own research, LMGIFY, etc.
Oh, OK then - I think think this is the relevant bit 🙂
Implementing the Withdrawal Agreement
12. Section 13 of the EU (Withdrawal) Act 2018 provides that the House of
Commons must vote to approve the Withdrawal Agreement and Political
Declaration on the future relationship before the Withdrawal Agreement can be
ratified and then enter into force. They must also be subject to a ‘take note’ motion
in the Lords.
So on that basis they could approve a PD that contemplates two distinct future paths.
God knows him many ukip meps will be elected if we remain. Might be better off without.
Dunno but I think the key bit is that the PD has to be agreed and signed along with the WA - we can't agree the WA and say "trust us, we'll come up with something for the PD later".
IANAL so may be totally wrong!
God knows him many ukip meps will be elected if we remain. Might be better off without.
A big fat 0.
Firstly the UK actually knows the EU parliament exists now and will vote for it.
Secondly and more importantly, if we remain it can only happen via revoking A50, which means we're in for a decade or more, no one is going to continue to fund UKIP, whatever happens in the weeks and months ahead.
The PD is nonsense though… it's just there to reassure the UK that the rEU won't screw it, as long as it looks after citizens, Ireland and existing financial commitments.
God knows him many ukip meps will be elected if we remain. Might be better off without
I'll take it they are lazy gobshites who simply take money in exchange for nothing but at least that doing nothing mean they can't get in the way of my straight bananas.
I do love these come on remainers let's just leave cause you can have a free squirrel.
free squirrel?
Can we get Paxo out of cryogenic storage?
I wonder how many leave votes were a result of his documentary ?
The petition has received a response.
This response was given on 26 March 2019
This Government will not revoke Article 50. We will honour the result of the 2016 referendum and work with Parliament to deliver a deal that ensures we leave the European Union.
The full reply from DexEU is on the front page of the petition.
Can't say as I'm totally shocked, but FFS.
Ostrich approach.
Still, I have a feeling that eventually they will have to discuss it in parliament, like it or not.
Oh the full text is all there
British people cast their votes once again in the 2017 General Election where over 80% of those who voted, voted for parties, including the Opposition, who committed in their manifestos to upholding the result of the referendum.
This Government stands by this commitment.
Revoking Article 50 would break the promises made by Government to the British people, disrespect the clear instruction from a democratic vote, and in turn, reduce confidence in our democracy. As the Prime Minister has said, failing to deliver Brexit would cause “potentially irreparable damage to public trust”, and it is imperative that people can trust their Government to respect their votes and deliver the best outcome for them.
Department for Exiting the European Union.
Bingo Tastic!! It's a full house there of WILL OF THE PEOPLE!!
We don't care so long as we can pin some red white and blue ribbons on it
And for added LOL's I bet they really loved putting it on the schedule!!
Parliament will debate this petition
Parliament will debate this petition on 1 April 2019.
The thing is, the petitions are not supposed to be enacted by government, they are supposed to result in a parliamentary debate. To resist a debate says far more than just sticking to your policy.
1 April 2019.
So there will be a debate?
