[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Its ironic that all those blue-rinses in the Tory Party conference, cheering on this racist nonsense, all live in nice leafy areas with no immigrants. Well... they may do, but they're not visible. They're behind the scenes, out of sight, in kitchens of the cafes they have their afternoon tea in.

But they know that immigration must be the cause of all the countries problems because they read it in the Daily Mail*.

They're also those who are nicely, comfortably insulated from any real world impacts such as this:

A lot of my customers are foreign . If they aren't here , they aren't spending money in my shop.

There is an interesting parallel here with what happened a while back in America. A few years ago there was a bus drivers strike in Los Angeles. All the nice comfortable, white, middle class inhabitants collectively shrugged and said 'so what! Who uses buses anyway?"

They found out the following week when the immigrant cleaners/gardeners, and any other of the previously unnoticed people, who do the menial jobs that are beneath the indigenous population, collectively failed to show up for work.

Something along those lines would happen here. Its yet another example of the cloud-cuckooland world the Brexiteers all live in

* The editorial writers of that vile rag are purring with contentment at the direction Theresa is taking the country in

Firms must list foreign workers

Amber Rudd was on Radio 4 this morning. Worth a listen:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07z39tn (starts around 2:10)

She acknowledges we have "record levels of employment", but still maintains that dem immigrants are taking our jobs innit. 😕

Regarding forcing businesses to publish lists of foreign employees she said: [i]"It's not something we're definitely going to do. It's one of the tools we are going to use as a review, to see if we can use it as a way of nudging people to do better behaviour"[/i]

Strongly implying that employing foreigners is now considered bad behaviour.

The reporting of foreign employees isn't potentially quite as daft as it sounds.

Why do I get the feeling that if the government announced they were opening new internment camps where foreigners could be painlessly put to death, you'd be straight on here saying "[i]It's not such a bad idea y'know"[/i] 😆

Meanwhile, the idiots at the labour press office have issued their response to this weeks festival of racism and foreigner baiting.... 🙄

[img] ?oh=e4c50f5e32623eb3d86df18b6a51a680&oe=58A9F289[/img]

I can't believe the Tories have decided to become quite so xenophobic.

EDIT: I wonder if the problem is that all the really clever people are no longer entering politics, and are instead earning much more money elsewhere. So we are increasingly getting the second-raters running the country.

I can't believe the Tories have decided to become quite so xenophobic

This is a remarkably accurate summary of the direction of travel of the party over the last few months....

@daz interesting discussion on Sky just now, two commentators asking where Labour where, they seem anonymous, have they given up ?

Record levels of employment doesn't mean full employment nor does it mean people at bottom end have decent wages.

RichPenny we can't even ask the right questions, look at the reaction here to the suggestion companies have to publish worker composition by nationality ? We all know that standard bearer of poor conditions and low wages Mike Ashley and Sports Direct has warehouses with a very high proportion of migrant workers. Whilst we don't have proper statistics broken down by nationality for wages, benefits etc all we will have is annecdotal evidence. Now our laws imo actually prevent the collection and publication of such information.

TMH lumping together the CEO making millions with the Sports Direct worker on below minimum wage to make a point that immigration is good is far too simplistic and intellectually bankrupt. People have seen straight through that and focus on what they can see in front of their own noses. From the limited stats we have seen it's clear that the nature of immigration from the EU changed dramatically in the last 10 years, the UK was actually mkre open allowing unlimited access for Poles immediately whilst France and Germany had restrictions. The stats we have seen show EU migrants are twice as likley to claim in work benefits and that the average amount was £6k pa that being doubke the average amount claimed by UK nations (figures from memory). We need more real data like that to make an informed choice. That data was kept from us so we all have to make a less well informed choice.

The editorial writers of that vile rag are purring with contentment at the direction Theresa is taking the country in

I'm sure they are already busy with the editorial:

[img] [/img]

@binners as someone who has lived and worked in Asia you should hear what the Chinese/Japanese/Koreans etc have to say about Westerners and each other.

I can't believe the Tories have decided to become quite so xenophobic

Maybe someone's been putting something in their tea?

[img] [/img]

as someone who has lived and worked in Asia you should hear what the Chinese/Japanese/Koreans etc have to say about Westerners and each other.

They're more racist than us. Well that makes it all ok then. Shall we all use the lowest common denominator as the new benchmark for tolerance? It would appear so.

What a great future we have to look forward too eh?

May will clearly position the party in the Middle ground today. Imdo get all the lefties here want to try and portray the Tories as ultra right wing nutters but that's not going to work. She is aiming at the middle ground and latching on the the Liberal Elite message which has been so succesful, from her speech later today

“‘Too often that isn’t how it works today,” Mrs May will tell the Tory conference in Birmingham. “Just listen to how a lot of politicians and commentators talk about the public.

“They find their patriotism distasteful, their concerns about immigration parochial, their views about crime illiberal, their attachment to their job security inconvenient.

“They find the fact more than 17 million voted to leave the EU simply bewildering.”

The nicest person I ever met was Spanish. She came to this country and improved the lives of everyone she met.
She bought with her some fantastic food and was genuinely one of those people you meet who change your life.
Don't deny me the chance to meet another person like her.
**** off you inward thinking racist bastards.
When the uk doesn't turn into utopia when we've got rid of Johnny foreigner who shall we blame next?

@binners it's about trying to see things in context, we are really not so bad and worrying about immigration etc does not make you racist. See Theresa's comments above

@zipp no one is denying you that chance. I have many very good friends in London who came here with visas, my closest friends are from US and New Zealand. My wife is French and I met her in New York when we where both working there, her full time with a visa and me on a secondment without one.

She is aiming at the middle ground and latching on the the Liberal Elite message

Oh good, now we're adopting Alt Right rhetoric from America.

How long before she starts talking about political correctness and the evils of socialist healthcare? Maybe her next speech will just be a bunch of poorly thought out memes.

Its about the direction of travel Jammers. It seems that there is now a rapidly escalating atmosphere of intolerance, which has been brought about by the legitimisation of racism by senior government figures, because it suited their aims during their referendum campaign. And to hell with the consequences.

Well... here come the consequences

no one is denying you that chance. I have many very good friends in London who came here with visas,

For goodness sake, think about what you're typing man!

They want to REDUCE immigration. That means FEWER foreigners and you're less likely to meet one BY DEFINITION.

Singapore, really that's your model?

Sure, we've got nothing to learn from a country that has gone from being outside of the top 30 countries for foreign inward investment to top 10 in the space of 2 decades. Or a country where real household income after tax and transfers rose 37% in the 10 years to 2013 compared to 2.8% in the same period in the UK.

Sure, we've got nothing to learn from a country that has gone from being outside of the top 30 countries for foreign inward investment to top 10 in the space of 2 decades. Or a country where real household income after tax and transfers rose 37% in the 10 years to 2013 compared to 2.8% in the same period in the UK.

You mean the one with labour shortages and a rapidly ageing populaton like Japan. The same one that then has the audacity to keep OFW's in slave conditions and complains and abuses them?

Hahahahah.

Right.

[quote=just5minutes ]Sure, we've got nothing to learn from a country...

I'm sure there are things we could learn from Nazi Germany - didn't their trains run on time?

I'm sure the present Tory leadership are exploring bonded slavery as the best option to replace present EU employment regulation

[img] ?6[/img]

Its about the direction of travel Jammers. It seems that there is now a rapidly escalating atmosphere of intolerance, which has been brought about by the legitimisation of racism by senior government figures, because it suited their aims during their referendum campaign. And to hell with the consequences.

You can't have it both ways Binners - people on here, you included, have previously, rightly, said that the referendum was largely lost due to a great many people's frustration over issues like immigration and the problems that large scale immigration has brought to communities, including the knock on effects on wages and jobs, and that Labour had pretty much abandoned these communities and not listened to their concerns.

Now though, as soon as someone starts talking about the issue and doing something about it, putting forward some fairly minor proposals, it's the dawn of a new holocaust, and anyone saying anything negative about immigration is fuelling the fires of extremism.

a great many people's frustration over issues like immigration and the problems that large scale immigration has brought to communities

Did it ever occur to you that there might be OTHER ways to solve the problem than simply getting rid of the immigrants? That immigration as a concept, and even free movement, might be useful for building the economy?

There are good and bad ways to solve a problem. The bad ways create more problems.

It kind of is though, isn't it - what ideology do the policies of anti-free market, anti-globalisation and right wing authoritarianism belong to, may I ask?

Lot's could have been done and could still be done for those communities ninfan, such as investment in infrastructure.

'control' isn't 'reduce'.

In the future we will see much larger numbers of immigrants coming to the UK. FActoiD.

Did the xenophobia exist before the vote in your opinion? Is it not better to see it and deal with it in the short term?

lefties here want to try and portray the Tories as ultra right wing nutters but that's not going to work

We don't have to try very hard. So far this week we've had:

- Foreign Doctors can f off.
- Foreign Students can f off.
- Everyone else who is foreign might have to f off if we don't get what we want from the EU.
- Employers must publish lists of foreign workers, the implication being that they should f off.

Have I missed anything?

worrying about immigration etc does not make you racist.

The tories this week don't seem to have got the memo, instead they've seized the opportunity to show their true colours. Never in my life have I heard such racist poison come from a mainstream political party. Nick Griffin eat your heart out.

Again... direction of travel.

You can't have it both ways Binners

If you actually read what I said in the Corbyn thread Ninfan, I decried the way the labour party had previously refused to address the issue. Leaving a vacuum to be exploited by UKIP. And said that in the end, the labour party proposals that Corbyn put forward were quite sensible. Mitigating the negative effects of immigration.

If a company (Sports Direct for example) only advertises positions exclusively abroad, to undercut local workers wages, that isn't the immigrants fault. Thats the companies fault. So the labour party is proposing doing something about it. Seems like a good idea to me.

Also more funds for communities with large scale immigration to help improve infrastructure. Instead of just leaving them to get on with it

Its the only thing I've ever given the beardy one any credit for

What the tories are doing is just pandering to racists, and (very conveniently) blaming immigrants for everything

theocb - Member

Did the xenophobia exist before the vote in your opinion? Is it not better to see it and deal with it in the short term?

it's not being 'dealt with' though, it's being encouraged.

the woman who did this:

[img] ?w=620&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=acd1a842bc36444c8572579ed24ba36f[/img]

is now the Prime Minister, telling people there's 'no shame in being a patriot' - especially when that patriotism manifests as a dislike of immigrants.

I can certainly see why Singapore would appeal to certain voices on here:

De facto one-party state since 1959.
Judicial caning and the death penalty.
Uses overly broad legal provisions on public order, morality, security, and racial and religious harmony to limit fundamental civil and political rights.
Compulsory national service.
Foreign domestic workers are still excluded from the Employment Act and many key labor protections, and are barred from registering unions.
Human trafficking for domestic slavery and sexual exploitation.
Not signed up to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

I'm sure they have a lot to teach us. 😕

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/asia-and-the-pacific/singapore/report-singapore/
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2016/country-chapters/singapore
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Singapore
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2014/apr/21/singapore-address-treatment-migrant-workers

Don't blame the euros for our problems blame the ****ing tories

just5minutes » Sure, we've got nothing to learn from a country

A country that's built is success by treating migrant workers so appallingly,
http://sea-globe.com/singapore-migrant-workers/

Don't call Amber a racist:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37561035

presumably we should call her somebody with a dislike of people of other races instead?

I don't think we should have a situation where we can't talk about immigration. We must not ignore the fact that people want to talk about immigration and if we do talk about immigration don't call me a racist.

Of course we can discuss immigration without being racist - I mean that's what pretty much everybody on this thread is managing. I'm not sure if she is too thick to understand that not being racist depends on how you talk about immigration, or it's just something inconvenient she's ignoring.

presumably we should call her somebody with a dislike of people of other races instead?

Someone with legitimate concerns about the effect of foreign people on our culture, morals, and our quality of life.

I'm sure all the thick skinheads in Stoke on Trent also think their concerns are legitimate.

May demonising the "liberal elite". Hmmm, so the Tories are in favour of the illiberal - I get that. However I suspect it will be the illiberal elite that they want to look after.

Hey ho - I'm ok either way.

Ahwhiles. As I said, did this xenophobic attitude exist before the vote? Pretending it didn't is exactly how this mess began.

For real change to happen, you need to pull the paper from the cracks (which means accepting the ugly side of reality)
Did you think Dave and George were the salt of the earth looking out for the people?

The people of the UK aren't going to allow xenophobic political views to dominate for long.

Ssssssssh everybody. Theresa is telling us what 'a society that works for everyone' looks like. Let us rejoice in her vision

Everyone?

[quote=binners ]Theresa is telling us what 'a society that works for everyone' looks like.

Does it look like this?

[img] [/img]

Someone with legitimate concerns about the effect of foreign people on our culture, morals, and our quality of life.

Those concerns can only come about by two assumptions. Either that mixing of cultures is bad; or that foreign culture is bad. Or both.

What stinks about this whole thing is the idea that if we didn't have the immigrants we'd be giving the jobs to British people instead. Of course, it's quite obvious that without the immigrants the jobs might not actually be there in the first place. So they must be glossing over that to hide xenophobic attitudes. I can't see any other reason.

Except perhaps fishing for votes.

Everyone?

[img] [/img]

alt-right

It's almost as if there is a world wide resurgence of fascism.

[img] http://www.banklawyersblog.com/.a/6a00d8341c652b53ef01bb08cb9319970d-800wi [/img]

I mean, that's proof right there.

Well we know what the new 'Hard-working Families' is.

Apparently, a Change Has Got to Come. A bit like Ron Jeremy then? Perhaps that the new Tory philosophy. What would Ron Jeremy do?

And Farage is leading UKIP again. Nothing else to say about that really.

[quote=jambalaya ] worrying about immigration etc does not make you racist.

Anyone watching Mays speech at the conference?

To save you the trouble, let me break it down for you:

Panem et circenses.

Panem et circenses.

[img] [/img]

If you're a citizen of the world, you're a citizen of nowhere.

If it means not being part of your utterly distasteful xenophobic race hate new world...I'll choose no-where thanks

utterly distasteful xenophobic race hate new world

Perhaps a little over dramatic 😆

Though I wouldn't mind the 'citizen of the world' moniker
EDIT: In fact could that be the new branding for 'outside the EU' UK

United Kingdom, citizens of the world!

I'll choose no-where thanks

mala tempora currunt

I'm not sure if she is too thick to understand that not being racist depends on how you talk about immigration, or it's just something inconvenient she's ignoring.

Whereas I'm not sure if you're too thick to understand that race and nationality are different things.

in case it helps

Immigrant:
[img] [/img]

not an immigrant:
[img] [/img]

I'm not sure we want any hysterical types moving in.

Insert your own joke about controlling immigration here...

So. Singapore is the model? A country smaller than the m25?
A place that needs photo bring money in to function, a happy location for the pink shirts who still need servants.

The stuff being spewed is offensive, most has no bearing in fact. I pity the people still in the UK who voted to leave when they realise that the government didn't invest in schools or health, the government didn't push house building, the government didn't work to make things better all of which the eu has no objections to.

listening to the snapshots on the radio news I'd say she has THM's online persona down to a "T"

Mike, that doesn't make any sense.. you will pity people who find out the truth?

Finger on the pulse it's a "silent revolution".

you will pity people who find out the truth?

I think he means people who voted out to because of a whole load of problems which had nothing to do with the EU, and which are probably going to get worse, along with a whole load of new problems, after we leave.

So what the Tories are saying is that now the UK Is open for business with the whole world BUT foreign people are not so welcome.
Thanks god for Internet shopping.

better off voting ukip?

[img] [/img]

If the economy contracts in the short to medium term, as people have been saying it will, then they're not going to be able to afford to do the things that need doing, so it won't get better.

The function of May's speech was to redefine the referendum result as an instruction to do everything that she wants to do.

The proof lies with everything she did as Home Secretary.

It's a mandate-grab.

She voted for losing side in the referendum, then became PM without a contest, and now claims a mandate for significant political shift.

But it is party conference season, and that old "wall of reality" is looming on the horizon for her.

It's a mandate-grab.
She voted for losing side in the referendum, then became PM without a contest, and now claims a mandate for significant political shift.

Ah, but don't worry, a strong opposition will stop her from doing that.

Bugger!

[I]Regarding forcing businesses to publish lists of foreign employees she said: "It's not something we're definitely going to do. It's one of the tools we are going to use as a review, to see if we can use it as a way of nudging people to do better behaviour"[/I]

I also heard her speak, her (and Minister) always seem to refer to 'businesses' with regard to anything to do with employment, seemingly forgetting that the Public Sector is a rather large employer (and user of the Private Sector), directly employing +5 million folk.

So, will this new 'directive' also apply to them?

Looks like Ruth Davidson didn't get the memo:

"So as we have difficult – but necessary - debates on how we manage borders in future, let us not forget that behind discussions of numbers and rules and criteria, there lies people and homes and families," she said.

"And for those who have already chosen to build a life, open a business, make a contribution, I say this is your home, and you are welcome here."

..

Asked later by the BBC's Andrew Neil about Ms Rudd's foreign worker plan, Ms Davidson said: "It’s not something I would propose."

-- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/05/ruth-davidson-challenges-hard-brexit-tories-by-arguing-immigrant/

Good on her. At least not everyone is shining their best jackboots.

(any bets on how long she lasts?)

El-bent - Member

She voted for losing side in the referendum, then became PM without a contest, and now claims a mandate for significant political shift.

Did you see her with Laura Kuenssberg? Paraphrasing but

"We were elected based on our manifesto and we have a mandate to deliver that manifesto"
"But there's lots of stuff in your manifesto that you're not doing"
"Yes, we also have a mandate to not deliver that manifesto"
"And there's lots of stuff you're doing that wasn't in your manifesto"
"Yes, our mandate is also to do things that weren't in the manifesto"
"Does that make any sense to anyone but you?"
"Nobody but me matters tbh"

The function of May's speech was to redefine the referendum result as an instruction to do everything that she wants to do.

Hence the heavy-handed mentions of the European Convention on Human Rights.

I have little doubt that'll be swept up with the rest of the reforms as if it was inevitable. Anything with Europe in the title is fair game regardless of the relation to EU membership.

Id vote for Ruth Davidson in a flash, wtf is she a tory?

kimbers - Member
Id vote for Ruth Davidson in a flash, wtf is she a tory?

Just like JC is the best leader for Labour.

[quote=ninfan ]Whereas I'm not sure if you're too thick to understand that race and nationality are different things.

Thanks for reminding me, so she's not a racist just a xenophobe (if you're not to thick to understand what that means 😉 )

Good analysis of Amber Rudd's speech by James O'Brien's...

Using Jambalaya's favourite role model, to draft her policy....

I'm sorry but Godwin was kicked in the nuts by Theresa on the first day of the confercene

Can you guess?
1930s Germany or Tory Party conference
Just delete the word Foreign or Jewish depending on where you think it was thought up

Pledge to remove\replace all foreign/Jewish doctors

Restrictions on foreign/Jewish students at universities

Shaming businesses for employing Jews/ foreigners

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/mobile/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005681

DrJ - not there yet and hopefully a very long way to go, but it does feel like that's the direction Britain'd heading in.

There's been a few out there comparing 1930s Germany to 2010s Britain. There are parallels - hopefully the brakes will go on before we get there.

I quite like Britain, but leavers talking it down and relentlessly going on about how it isn't great anymore and we have to kick out the EU or immigrants or human rights or something to make it great - I disagree.

Britain was great on 22nd June and part of what made us great was championing human rights trying to work with our neighbours to create something better than the continent that used to be torn apart by war every 30 years.

Now? No we don't look so good.

With respect though Kimbers, maybe you just heard what you wanted to hear?

You could easily view each of those things a different way:

- They will stop recruiting doctors whose training was paid for by other countries ..many of which are poorer than the UK and themselves have less doctors per head of population
- They will welcome with open arms people who want to come here solely for the purpose of accessing education but will not welcome those who are really coming here for other reasons
- They will make sure the proven abuses by some employers are dealt with - and also force employers to invest more in training.

e.g.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/08/13/a-bus-driver-was-refused-a-job-interview-because-hes-not-romanian-6065188/

On the latter point British Employers rank 22nd in Europe on the amount they invest in training and educating their employees. There is a significant risk to our economy (not least with Brexit) that some of the key labour skills we've attracted from abroad may decide to go somewhere else - leaving us without the skills and capabilities our economy needs.

She voted for losing side in the referendum, then became PM without a contest, and now claims a mandate for significant political shift.

She is a long term eurosceptic, I was a little surprised she came down for Remain but I believe that was out of loyalty. As per the leaks from newly Knighted Sir she was very reluctant to campaign and made only one minor effort.

She stood and won the contest, it was clear it was going to be a May landslide so Leesom stood asids

She's implementing the manifesto and Referendum result with an additional broadening of the appeal to the centre ground

No, she is going all the way to the far right.

They're taking SOME centre ground (investing in training and housing) almost admitting that they should've been doing it all along, but moving way to the right in the immigration area.

just5minutes - Member

- They will welcome with open arms people who want to come here solely for the purpose of accessing education but will not welcome those who are really coming here for other reasons

This is categorically not this government's policy on international students- it wasn't under May, and Rudd just signalled an escalation.

(source: this is what I do for a living. If you tell an international recruiter, agent, admissions manager or compliance officer that we "welcome with open arms people who want to come here solely for the purpose of accessing education", they're likely to laugh in your face.)

Singapore. It's one model, we can look at Canada, Australia and US too if you like

Singapore has been a massive success commercially. There is a small portion of the local population who don't like the "one party state" overtones but none of them want the economic success or political freedoms of Thailand, Malaysia or Indonesia their immediate neighbours, how about Burma ?

Singapore has about 50% locals, 50% temporary immigrants. Some feautures of Singapore

Tough application process - education/professional certificates, proof you will bring specific required skills, high earning job to provide taxes
If you lose your job you have 2 weeks to leave (now possible to stay 6 months if you are job hunting)
Any serious crime you are deported after serving any prison time / flogging if required. Note graffiti on a public building is a serious crime
No interferring in political process
No benefits / welfare / health provision
Only rent/buy designated "ex-pat" accomodation which is much more expensive than locals have access too.
If you apply for Permanent Resident status thats a 5 year term

Singapore brings in many construction workers, they live in dedicated employer provided accommodation

Singapore is more flexible than the Gulf States many of which keep your passport and you have to apply for a Visa to leave 😯 many many Brits still choose to live and work there.

They're taking SOME centre ground (investing in training and housing) almost admitting that they should've been doing it all along

Don't listen to what they say, watch what they actually DO!

Talk is cheap. I'll believe it when I see it.