An advisory vote does not require a supermajority, a mandatory vote (such as an election) does.
Why are you making stuff up?
I thought I'd take a leaf out of Leave's playbook.
Can't say I get the link between a drug trial and a voting system
Of course it’s demonstrable. Or are you suggesting they miscounted?
now you mention it.
Not to mention if it was mandatory it would have bene declared void by the courts
Not convinced this follows either.
Not to mention if it was mandatory it would have bene declared void by the courts
All of which became irrelevant when parliment voted to invoke A50.
@mefty - The high courts decision was that they couldnt do anything about the illegal behaviour because it was advisory, but the judge did state if it had been mandatory it would ahve been voided. All this was reported a few weeks ago.
@taxi25 - could have happily been revoked. But I was just adding another layer of the stupidity of having an adviosry referendum that politicians said they would stick too.
So how do leavers on here propose we "honour the referendum" ? No deal on 29th doesn't stand a hope based on recent parliamentary shenanigans. May's deal is universally unpopular with everyone but her inner circle,. Labour don't have the clout to change anything. So what's the solution to this in the next 23 days?
"I'm sure everything will be fine."
So what’s the solution to this in the next 23 days?
Fire up the Lancaster and teach those continentals a lesson?
So how do leavers on here
There are no leavers, they've all gone or been banned.
propose we “honour the referendum” ?
Well this is the problem, there is no way of honouring it, which is why a lot of people are kicking off and becoming increasingly frustrated at the politicians inability to adhere to a clear and simple instruction. The trouble is the politicians didn't add the caveat 'if it is possible' on their leave promise. They could try ignoring or reversing their promise but they know they'll never be trusted again, which will lead to constitutional and democratic crisis, weak (or no) government, politicial and economic paralysis, and ultimately chaos and violence in the streets when food starts becoming scarce, utilities shut down and no one can drive their cars due to the petrol stations being empty. It'll be like the fuel and iceland volcano crisis combined, multiplied by the winter of discontent. And all because we couldn't accept an unlikely to be invoked semi-permanent backstop insurance policy whilst negotiating a trade deal.
Is that the long way of saying we should Leave with May's Withdrawl Deal Agreement…? Despite it not even outlining what we will replace membership with… and being pretty universally derided by the very people whose vote is being taken as a mandate for it?
So you believe that not leaving the EU will lead to political and economic paralysis?
Our govt is already paralysed by trying to leave the EU, so no change there.
But you're going to have to explain to me how not leaving the EU will cause economic paralysis, as opposed to business just carrying on the same was as it has for, I dunno, the last 30 years?
The drug curing cancer or not is the incorrect analogy. It’s really Drug A cures 48% of patients and Drug B cures 52%, which drug should I take for the highest likelihood of cure. If I’d tested 100 in each trial, I wouldn’t know. If I tested 1000 I might be a little more certain. If I tested 1000000 I would know for certain.
We would say is a 4% difference clinically meaningful? And the answer is a maybe. It’s actually very hard to test drugs that work against each other due to limitations of trial size and the fact that the difference is likely to be small (we go for “non-inferior” or is not worse than). The normal test is against placebo, but that’s not ethical when there is an effective treatment already available.
Enough of my day job...
So you believe that not leaving the EU will lead to political and economic paralysis?
Of course it won't, but it will lead to a lot of unhappy leave voters who will not vote for the tories at next election which is the primary concern of the tory government. They will need a new party to vote for though who would be pushing for leave and (Farage?) but any future referendum would never get voted through based on this disaster. Still, they will get over it.
Those unhappy Leave voters hate what May is suggesting we do… they think she is a traitor denying them all that they were promised their vote would lead to
That’s not what I meant (and I appreciate I worded it badly)
no, your wording was fine.
No, his wording was poor… 52% success rate in a drugs trial is a solid result… not at all comparable to 52:48 spilt in a test of opinion. The while analogy is poor actually.
My mistake. I understood that he (or she) meant 48% were cured by the placebo v 52% cured by the drug.
Ill return to reading only.
Okay… then the meaning was clear… just arguably irrelevant. But I'm the one confusing things here now… sorry. You should post more often @LAT… I should post less.
Are we still pretending that the French strikes are unrelated to Brexit? I'd like to post something about it all… but would like to know if it'll upset the sensitive types…
as opposed to business just carrying on the same was as it has for, I dunno, the last 30 years?
Well I would contend that’s one of the things that lead people to vote as they did. Actually it’s less of an economic problem than a political one. The paralysis will come from a dysfunctional political system where the people will either refuse to take part or worse support fringe parties offering them the earth. Stability in a country is founded on the strength of it’s political institutions, take that strength and stability away whilst fomenting continuing anger and mistrust in the populace and you have a recipe for huge upheaval.
Obviously it’s debatable whether that will be worse or better than Brexit itself. It may even be a good thing if it shakes up the system. More likely it’ll just end up with the same result as we see in other countries which go through some form of revolutionary change. It’ll be corrupted and misdirected by snake oil salesmen and powerful egotists with nefarious intentions.
Or we could just take the boring route, accept some form of a deal which preserves the status quo and carry on as normal. I’m too bloody old for more crises.
It’ll be corrupted and misdirected by snake oil salesmen and powerful egotists with nefarious intentions.
Pretty certain that's already happened.
Downing Street has admitted that talks between cabinet ministers and EU officials have been “difficult” and saw a “robust exchange of views”
Hehe. Don't you just wish you could listen in on these conversations?
Or we could just take the boring route, accept some form of a deal which preserves the status quo and carry on as normal.
That may be a bit optimistic. If you think that cracking on with any kind of Brexit (especially with the ****tards we have running the show at the moment) is going to allow us to carry on as normal, then I'd like something of whatever you are smoking Daz.
Just seen another brit has been sent to negotiate, Geoffrey Cox. The first time that someone who has a clue has been sent. I hope Barnier realises nothing good could come of his visit for Europe.
Barnier said no more progress, another wasted week.
Pretty certain that’s already happened.
It has, but imagine the likes of Johnson, Rees Mogg and Farage being in charge, and Tommy Robinson marching through the streets with 50,000 people behind him.
Or we could just take the boring route
That's a new reason for brexit, "it'll be exciting!"
I will confess that there is a very small part of me that wants the UK to crash out just to see what will happen. Ideally from a vantage point of somewhere like Canada.
It has, but imagine the likes of Johnson, Rees Mogg and Farage being in charge, and Tommy Robinson marching through the streets with 50,000 people behind him.
Sounds great to me.
And what happens when that crowd catches them?
You owe me a new keyboard Cougar! 🙂
Well I would contend that’s one of the things that lead people to vote as they did.
That and the EU being the scapegoat for domestic issues.
Tommy Robinson marching through the streets with 50,000 people behind him.
Frankly that sounds unlikely. I'm looking forward to seeing the size of Farage's proposed march compared with the pro remain march planned for 23rd.
I’m looking forward to seeing the size of Farage’s proposed march compared with the pro remain march planned for 23rd.
Anybody care to predict which will get the most coverage on the BBC news? >:-(
So, here's a surprise, May hasn't been able to come up with anything new, so another vote to be lost on Tuesday.
There's apparently a majority in the commons to stop no deal, but not for anything else.... So we default to no deal.
Scary if you are dependent on medication from outside the UK!
If there is ever a public inquiry, wonder if we'll ever see the costs of all this, to taxpayer & business & how long it will add on to austerity that's doing the real damage to the country?
I see Corbyn is boldly pushing ahead with project Red Unicorn. Any indication he might implement the policy his party settled on at conference? No, thought not.
There’s apparently a majority in the commons to stop no deal, but not for anything else…. So we default to no deal.
Howzat work then? If the HoC vote against leaving without a deal can they then just carry on and do that without another vote? (Yes I know the date is set in law at the moment but we're then in a proper parliamentary paradox).
As I understand it we need a change to the law to either revoke or extend A50.
If the HoC vote against leaving without a deal can they then just carry on and do that without another vote?
Yes. The government can choose not to hold any more votes of its own, on anything, before we leave. And any other votes can just be ignored by them… except a no confidence vote… so we then leave on No Deal this month, even if parliament has voted 95% against that happening. Even in a no confidence vote being lost situation… the timeline for getting a new government in place and new legislation ready and voted on… means we'd be out with no deal before it can be stopped.
There are some very experienced MPs trying to word votes that can change this… but from what I've seen, their plans still rely on the PM acting accordingly… she can always play hardball and ignore them, get us out, and play chicken with parliament. If she is prepared to let us Leave with no deal, no one can stop her now.
You have to admire the stubbornness and intransigence of both party leaders.
You have your little stockpile of any essential drugs you need sorted? Yes?
That seems to be the misconception. There is no such thing as taking No Deal off the table. The only way to avoid that is by choosing another option. If no other option is actively chosen, then No Deal happens by default.
Edit: basically, as kelvin says...
How do we get to Corbyn''s second referendum?
There is no such thing as taking No Deal off the table.
The PM can "take no deal off the table", but parliament can not. Go way way back in this thread and you'll see some of us explaining how the legislation passed was enabling this power grab (and THM claiming no such thing was occurring).
Hehe. Don’t you just wish you could listen in on these conversations?
In a prurient way 'yes'. But at all times I am painfully aware that these people are personally representing me. Ultimately, no matter how good (Cox) or how useless (David, Raab, Barclay etc) they are still going to end up being embarrassed because they are asking for fundamentally stupid things and making themselves into a laughing stock.
How anyone can start any sort of negotiations with Barnier et all without first muttering "sorry about this, but...." is beyond me.
The high courts decision was that they couldnt do anything about the illegal behaviour because it was advisory, but the judge did state if it had been mandatory it would ahve been voided. All this was reported a few weeks ago.
No they didn't, I suggest you read the judgments rather than rely on the interpretation of the barrister who took the case. This is a gross misinterpretation of what was said.
How do we get to Corbyn”s second referendum?
We don't. He's trying to get conservatives on side for his version of brexit now. He has no intention of the Labour party taking any steps towards supporting another vote other than paying it lip service.
contemptible.